Are these forums controlled opposition?

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Are these forums controlled opposition?
« on: January 17, 2020, 08:35:32 PM »
It said, when registering on this site that moderation was tight.

However, the first thread I opened up was a torrent of personal abuse aimed at someone, for some reason.

When someone uses ad-hominem attacks to argue their position, they should be struck from the record as that is slander and not addressing the subject.

After not researching Flat Earth for around five years and just now deciding to revisit the subject, this is the first website that is not openly critical of the idea.

However. It is extremely easy to derail any serious or genuine information by clogging up threads with nothing but endless tit for tat between two members who are both behaving like children.

Without strict moderation, all you have is endless threads with each comment getting more and more glib and vague so any possibility of finding anything out diminishes with every none-productive post.

I put it to you theflatearthsociety.org that you are not living up to your own pre-registration preamble claim of moderating behaviour strictly and allowing certain members to create an atmosphere of confusion, miss-information and at worst, creating endless diversions and stifling the possibility of productive discourse evert really occurring.

When five years ago I researched this topic it was fairly simple to find information about the Round Earth Society and it's foundations in the 1940's. Now I cannot find information about the flat earth ever being accepted as a model for the planet despite being taught that since birth, that is what people have always believed and it was only when the first men went to the moon it was decided the Earth was globular with broad scientific consensus.

So given that with the internet superseding paper books, all information is completely malleable with only your memory (or screenshots, or saved html files) a reliable manner of holding that information in perpetuity.

Without even this website acknowledging what I was taught in school and from every available source of information of the Globular Earth theory being a recently, globally/internationally accepted one, what hope os there for any information to be anyting but open to continual revision?

The level of debate here is very poor from what I've seen so far. With likely 99% of people pretending to be having a debate with someone holding an opposing view but really being paid money to just obfuscate the remote possibility of productive debate by making wild and easily debunked claims in the name of the FE theory then being shot down by a RE guy based on his clearly wrong assumptions.

What is most sad is the lack of even basic understanding of modern science doctrine from people pertaining to be supporting it does not seem to be any barrier to them to make confident claims on subjects where any science book would send them back start from scratch.

It's sad, but world history has been rewritten in the last 5 years in internet land. Without a printed page, anything fact is what you decide it to be and without a proper archive of information which is not parle to revisions (including the revision history pages - wiki). We are living in a complete void of information.

Dissproving a globular shaped earth can be done easily with a long channel of water and a laser, say, in Bedford. But no-one has deemed this worthy of experiment it seems, such is the confidence in the scientific models of Newton and Einstein.

So as in popular modern debate. There is no challenge to the status quo at all and when you tolerate name calling and people to state anything that comes into their heads as accepted scientific fact you do nothing to further the cause of actual investigation into the world at large.

So I say. This website is a big fat phoney.
A theory is not a fact. An insult is not an argument.

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bullhorn

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 09:08:15 PM »
Just be true to yourself, people can be disrespectful to you, both in life and in here. Find your own path.

I have been posting here since 2005, almost longer than anyone on here. I do my own thing and don’t worry about what other people think.

Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2020, 09:24:51 PM »
Well, as the primary source of information on the subject it lacking to say the least.

I doubt many people will come away from these forums with any new perception of science due to silly obviously wrong science being claimed, then refuted endlessly.

Neatly (or messily) sidestepping the burden of proof to the round earthers to actually present proof because they are too busy pretend arguing with other about something which is far beyond the subject at hand.

You can lay down proof in these forums but someone will just make sure the last entry in a thread is directing the argument away from polite and productive discussion and it's just a much throwing contest.

Hence the absolute necessity of moderators to kick out people who are obviously derailing the conversation.

Which is not being done at all.

It's kind of telling that there is a rushed article on lycanthropy pinned to the top of the General Discussion. This seem like an attempt to discredit these forums, by these forums, given the article has no scientific basis.

It failed to mention the fascinating fact that the moon decreases temperature rather than increase it which is scientifically testable and provable yet unexplained and a perfect subject for discussion on cosmology.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:30:45 PM by HattyFatner »
A theory is not a fact. An insult is not an argument.

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Stash

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2020, 11:31:10 PM »
It failed to mention the fascinating fact that the moon decreases temperature rather than increase it which is scientifically testable and provable yet unexplained and a perfect subject for discussion on cosmology.

Feel free to share your findings on the matter and its relevance to cosmology.

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rabinoz

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2020, 12:09:36 AM »
Well, as the primary source of information on the subject it lacking to say the least.

I doubt many people will come away from these forums with any new perception of science due to silly obviously wrong science being claimed, then refuted endlessly.
So are you going to present us with a "new perception of science" that has a solid basis supported by evidence?

Quote from: HattyFatner
Neatly (or messily) sidestepping the burden of proof to the round earthers to actually present proof because they are too busy pretend arguing with other about something which is far beyond the subject at hand.
Why is there a "burden of proof to the round earthers to actually present proof"?
You flat-Earthers are the new-ones-on-the-block so I would say that the burden of proof is one YOU and you don't seem to hava any.

The Globe has fitted with observations both one Earth and from astronomy for millennia.
As more accurate observations were made details were changed but the basic spherical Earth with distant Sun and moon is over 2 millennia old.

By the way, don't get into modern Cosmology and the (non-)big Bang etc because that is completely irrelevant to the question of the shape of the Earth.

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JackBlack

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2020, 01:37:34 AM »
The problem with strict moderation is that it will go one of 2 ways:
Either anyone opposing FE will be silenced, making it an echo-chamber, rather than a thread for debate.
Or, all the FEers will be silenced due to their inability to rationally defend their claims.

For example, how would strict moderation respond to all the nonsense in your post?
There is no Round Earth society which started in the 1940s, nor did people teach that Earth was flat until we landed on the moon, nor did people only realise Earth was round when we did.
It has been known that Earth is round for thousands of years. That has been taught in schools for so long it isn't funny.

Nor can you easily disprove the fact that Earth is round by using the Bedford level.
You can do a very poor experiment which fails to adequately control for refraction and pretend Earth is flat.
Or you can do an experiment which ensures refraction isn't going to be a problem and clearly show Earth is round.

There are also plenty of other experiments to be done, such as observing the moon and seeing if it significantly changes size or shape over the course of 24 hours, preferably with a friend you trust from the other side of the world.

Nor does the moon decrease temperature. No one has ever been able to provide any proof on this and instead have completley different things and then claims it does.
Their "experiments" are akin to comparing 2 objects, initially at 150 C, one placed in a 200 C oven and the other placed out in the sun, and then claiming that it proves the sun cools things.
It is pure nonsense.
In order for it to be a valid experiment you need to compare the moonless sky to the sky with the moon, and show a significant difference in temperature and that the moon cools.

If you have an example of that, feel free to present it.


But you were right about one thing, there are plenty of people making wild and easily debunked claims in the name of FE, because that is all they have.


Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2020, 05:14:48 AM »
The cooling moonlight thing is based on a botched half experiment.  It doesn’t account for the fact that at night, the ground radiates heat into the sky.  So when you take a measurement in the shade, you are actually blocking some of the heat transfer from the ground.

To properly test if the moon were the cause of the temperature difference, you’d need a control test.  Take the measurements on a clear night with a full moon, noting where the readings were taken.  Then wait for a clear night with no moon, and repeat at the same locations.

You should see a similar temperature difference.  Let us know if you don’t.

Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2020, 07:03:33 AM »
Or, all the FEers will be silenced due to their inability to rationally defend their claims.

This comment proves you don't have any intention of actually debating anything scientifically. You have just dismissed anyone who holds that view completely out of hand.

No one can debate with you if that is your attitude.

So these forums are pretty much a complete waste of time for anyone with a genuine interesting in discussing science.
A theory is not a fact. An insult is not an argument.

Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2020, 07:05:20 AM »
You should see a similar temperature difference.  Let us know if you don’t.
I don't have the apparatus for that kind of experiment but I'd be interested to see the results if anyone did it.
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rvlvr

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2020, 07:11:06 AM »
it was only when the first men went to the moon it was decided the Earth was globular with broad scientific consensus.
While it is true I was born after said flight, I find it really difficult to believe that.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2020, 07:26:15 AM »
Or, all the FEers will be silenced due to their inability to rationally defend their claims.

This comment proves you don't have any intention of actually debating anything scientifically. You have just dismissed anyone who holds that view completely out of hand.

No one can debate with you if that is your attitude.

So these forums are pretty much a complete waste of time for anyone with a genuine interesting in discussing science.
Not entirely. There are some genuine posters on the forum.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2020, 07:36:43 AM »
We try to find the balance between strict moderation and freedom. An over moderated forum is a dead forum.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2020, 07:37:16 AM »
We try to find the balance between strict moderation and freedom. An over moderated forum is a dead forum.
Agreed.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2020, 07:50:05 AM »
Also, we don't always get it right. Sometimes a thread will go way off before we notice and by then it's complete pile of shit... but everyone seems to be enjoying themselves and posting away. I sometimes look at a thread like that and wonder if I should kill everyone's fun, or let it go as long as people aren't breaking the more serious rules? I can't make everyone happy, but I do my best to allow people to enjoy the forum. There are some rules I enforce strictly, such as the racism rule, others I have to judge for seriousness, such as insults and trouble making. Just about everyone here flings insults, nearly everyone gets up to a little trouble making, sometimes it's in good fun, sometimes it's more nasty.

If you want an example of a strictly enforced forum on this website, look at Q&A. It's supposed to be where people can ask questions about flat earth theory and get answers. Round earthers can't help trying to debate the answers even though that is not the purpose of the forum, so I end up moving their posts and handing out warnings, which makes the forum almost entirely inactive.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JackBlack

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2020, 01:46:41 PM »
Or, all the FEers will be silenced due to their inability to rationally defend their claims.
This comment proves you don't have any intention of actually debating anything scientifically. You have just dismissed anyone who holds that view completely out of hand.
No, it shows my honesty and history with the forum. (And Sandokhan's telling of all those sites he has been banned from due to it having more strict moderation and him being completely unable to actually defend his claims).
I am quite open to debate.
The problem is that no FEer here actually wants a serious debate on the FE.

They will happily engage when a RE who doesn't know what they are talking about comes in and spouts nonsense, but when it comes to seriously debating things like FE or rockets working in space, they will do whatever they can to avoid debate, with different FEers trying different things.

You (and others) are doing this yourself in the rocket thread.
A key issue was raised and the FEers are yet to actually address it.
That is because there is no way for them to address it.
So if that was going to be strictly moderated, all the deflection from the FEers would be removed and they would be forced to either admit they are wrong, or just leave the thread.

If you disagree, feel free to go to that thread and address the issue.

Then there are others that will happily just ignore whatever you say and repost their same nonsense from above, almost word for word (sometimes a literally copy-paste.

I am quite happy to debate, the problem is that the FEers aren't.

The reason why is quite simple:
RE is based upon mountains of evidence acquired of thousands of years of human history, with loads of things, including things used in everyday life like GPS and satellite TV, easily backing up the RE.
Meanwhile FE is built upon rejecting reality and instead leaping to strawmen to attack the RE (such as claiming a RE requires water to run uphill or pretending level means flat) and wild speculation (such as magic perspective with bendy light to explain sunsets) and shifting the problem around (such as using several different maps to try and explain the region illuminated by the sun, where each map has a different problem region) to try and prop up FE.

So these forums are pretty much a complete waste of time for anyone with a genuine interesting in discussing science.
Because the FEers make it so.

Because a genuine discussion of science would require both sides to honestly and rationally present science/evidence.
REers can do that, but FEers can't as that would require them to admit FE is wrong.

How would you have a genuine interesting discussion of science for someone who wants to claim humans don't exist? Not in the sense of this universe being a simulation, but humans not existing at all in any way?

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rabinoz

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2020, 01:56:59 PM »
The cooling moonlight thing is based on a botched half experiment.  It doesn’t account for the fact that at night, the ground radiates heat into the sky.  So when you take a measurement in the shade, you are actually blocking some of the heat transfer from the ground.

To properly test if the moon were the cause of the temperature difference, you’d need a control test.  Take the measurements on a clear night with a full moon, noting where the readings were taken.  Then wait for a clear night with no moon, and repeat at the same locations.

You should see a similar temperature difference.  Let us know if you don’t.
I've and many others have done exactly that and reported the results for example:

I took two containers filled with water and placed one in a location shaded from the sky (under a verandah roof or under a shrub, it made little difference).
The sky temperature was measured with an IR thermometer directed as near as possible vertical but well away from any overhead objects and the sun (in daylight).
Here are a few of my results - with no moon in the sky.
Date and Time
   
Sky Temp
   
Shade Temp
   
Exposed Temp
Aug 10 06:40
   
   
   
7.1°C   
   
3.2°C   
09:00
   
-21°C   
   
11.1°C   
   
7.3°C   
16:00
   
-20°C   
   
17.8°C   
   
16.5°C   
19:45
   
-24°C   
   
12.0°C   
   
10.3°C   
Aug 11 07:00
   
-21°C   
   
8.4°C   
   
5.7°C   
Bright Sun: 11:35
   
-16°C   
   
20.2°C   
   
34.2°C   
After dawn, still in shade: Aug 12 06:40
   
-18°C   
   
10.2°C   
   
6.82°C   
After dawn, still in shade: Aug 13 07:00
   
-40°C   
   
1.5°C   
   
-3.0°C   

The temperature of that one in the bright sun kept rising.

There is no need for any moon in the sky. The moon does not send out "rays".
Moonlight travels in all directions and has an extremely small heating effect - maybe (50/500,000)°C and virtually impossible to measure.
The temperature of an object is due to an equilibrium between heat lost to the environment and heat gained.
The sky, day or night, is very cold and very little heat is gained from that source but shading objects are usually at about the air temperature and far warmer than the sky.


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Yes

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2020, 06:53:00 PM »
Not to derail too much, but this assertion caught my attention:
Now I cannot find information about the flat earth ever being accepted as a model for the planet despite being taught that since birth,
If you don't mind me asking, where are you from?  Did your parents or school teachers also believe earth was flat?  It's easy for me to understand that, not knowing otherwise, a flat-shaped earth would be the default extrapolation of the landscape.  But to be explicitly taught that earth is flat?  That's quite interesting.

You may not believe this from a controlled opposition forum, but a flat earth hasn't been an accepted model for many hundreds of years.  (Thousands, actually, but the educational level of civilization comes and goes throughout history.)  The evidence is all around us, and once you know what you're looking for it's easy to understand the nature of the planet - at least superficially.  Some flat earthers on this forum are upset because nobody knows exactly how gravity works, as if that makes a difference to its existence.  It's nevertheless the truth that gravity exists, "down" is the direction of the center of mass, and ships disappear over the horizon from the bottom and reappear from the top.  The movement of the sun in the sky over the seasons around the world makes perfect sense on a round world, as do the differences in visible stars when traveling between the northern and southern hemisphere.  Eclipses are precisely predictable and explicable, as are apsides and the difference in angular size caused by them.  And of course, a dozen or so nations have independently verified all these things over the past several decades.

There's really no reason to hold onto that "default extrapolation".  Except to troll for arguments on a controlled opposition forum, of course.  ;)
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2020, 08:42:38 AM »
I'm calling bullshit on JackBlack's post. He is addicted to fisking. When he breaks down a post into little bits it makes it a chore to reply. He knows no one likes it, but he does it so he can claim there are no FE willing to debate. No one wants to reply to all that, and then try to figure out where to put the quote tags so the post isn't broken.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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wise

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2020, 09:02:20 AM »
Im not sure if I get the point here but we have already a main book explains basics of the flat earth theory: "Earth not a globe" Samuel Rowbotham. I recommend you to use it for yourself and children.
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rvlvr

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2020, 09:28:14 AM »
Or, all the FEers will be silenced due to their inability to rationally defend their claims.
This comment proves you don't have any intention of actually debating anything scientifically. You have just dismissed anyone who holds that view completely out of hand.
No, it shows my honesty and history with the forum. (And Sandokhan's telling of all those sites he has been banned from due to it having more strict moderation and him being completely unable to actually defend his claims).
This I consider quite telling, when trying to figure out if any of the claims hold water. Sandokhan's Sun at, what was it, a few tens of kilometers away, and John Davis' twine experiment are just a few of the outrageous things considered kosher here.

And, again, I rarely see many FE actually defend each other's views (most likely because they cannot agree on anything else than it is not round). Could be all this is a smokescreen as I, too, find a lot of the stuff here beyond laughable, and I am sure many visitors will agree. But this begs the question if this is the best on offer? Are other FE sites just echo chambers, the ones that are only for FE? Not much can be won preaching to the converted, if the aim is to let the world know the "truth".

FE is not doing too well. Even the papers have not bothered with it lately.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2020, 09:35:46 AM »
Why do you think we have an "aim"? You RE always think we have an ulterior motive. If we have an aim, it is that you seek the truth for yourself.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Yes

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2020, 09:43:02 AM »
and John Davis' twine experiment are just a few of the outrageous things considered kosher here.
John Davis' candle experiment is what finally convinced me that he wasn't a flat earther.  He's just another character troll.  Granted, I haven't been studying the users here for very long, so I don't know his history of other blatant lies.  That said, he does maintain his character well, and he at least can put forth an argument without it devolving into incoherent rambling, so I don't want to be too harsh on him.  But he's not a flat earther.

Indeed, there very very few flat earthers on this flat earth forum.
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rvlvr

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2020, 10:13:17 AM »
Why do you think we have an "aim"? You RE always think we have an ulterior motive. If we have an aim, it is that you seek the truth for yourself.
I'd imagine so. As otherwise there's no need to debate anything with roundies.

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wise

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2020, 10:32:07 AM »
Each fe'er has its own view, it has its own theory. every fe'er, although he thinks differently, respects the thoughts of other fe'ers. Since it is not easy to meet at a common point, most of the topics do not have consensus. If there was a consensus on any subject, one of them would come out and object to it. Essentially, fe'ers are conspiracy theorists, and therefore they constantly produce conspiracy theory about everything and each other. just like I thought John Davis is working with the FBI about  and he was thinking me working with Elon Musk. Even if we would working side by side in the same office, we would produce such theories about each other. The situation with others is no different. Sandokhan, Sceptimatic, Tom Bishop, they may all be agents. I think most of the FEs out of this society are working for NASA and trying to show our society is bad.

Even so, we are always trying to support each other. but unfortunately there is always a group out there that says we are controlled opposition.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2020, 11:25:08 AM »
Each fe'er has its own view, it has its own theory. every fe'er, although he thinks differently, respects the thoughts of other fe'ers. Since it is not easy to meet at a common point, most of the topics do not have consensus. If there was a consensus on any subject, one of them would come out and object to it. Essentially, fe'ers are conspiracy theorists, and therefore they constantly produce conspiracy theory about everything and each other. just like I thought John Davis is working with the FBI about  and he was thinking me working with Elon Musk. Even if we would working side by side in the same office, we would produce such theories about each other. The situation with others is no different. Sandokhan, Sceptimatic, Tom Bishop, they may all be agents. I think most of the FEs out of this society are working for NASA and trying to show our society is bad.

Even so, we are always trying to support each other. but unfortunately there is always a group out there that says we are controlled opposition.
Why can 'you' not find an agreed way to produce an accurate map or model of the earth?

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wise

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2020, 12:27:58 PM »
Each fe'er has its own view, it has its own theory. every fe'er, although he thinks differently, respects the thoughts of other fe'ers. Since it is not easy to meet at a common point, most of the topics do not have consensus. If there was a consensus on any subject, one of them would come out and object to it. Essentially, fe'ers are conspiracy theorists, and therefore they constantly produce conspiracy theory about everything and each other. just like I thought John Davis is working with the FBI about  and he was thinking me working with Elon Musk. Even if we would working side by side in the same office, we would produce such theories about each other. The situation with others is no different. Sandokhan, Sceptimatic, Tom Bishop, they may all be agents. I think most of the FEs out of this society are working for NASA and trying to show our society is bad.

Even so, we are always trying to support each other. but unfortunately there is always a group out there that says we are controlled opposition.
Why can 'you' not find an agreed way to produce an accurate map or model of the earth?

I made an accurate map can be acceptable, has a logic, but there is no way to deal. Because everybody have either their own map or shape theory. Where is a way? No way.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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rvlvr

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2020, 12:32:27 PM »
Does that mean you are trying to muddy the waters by presenting your map when others have shown the real one? How can we know you are not the enemy of FE?

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wise

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2020, 12:33:46 PM »
You can not.  ;D

If you examine it then you see it has a logic and sincere. This is all I can do.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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rvlvr

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2020, 12:34:31 PM »
Exactly, my Turkish friend!

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wise

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Re: Are these forums controlled opposition?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2020, 01:00:02 PM »
Then, how can we know everybody isn't enemy of either FE or RE?
1+2+3+...+∞= 1