my concern

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sandokhan

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my concern
« on: January 17, 2020, 01:24:16 AM »
Those big ring-laser gyroscopes do indeed measure the rotation rate of the Earth to be (7.292Ī0.002)◊10−5 rad/sec
No.
Those RLGs measure the rotation of the ether drift through the CORIOLIS EFFECT.
If you want rotation (of the Earth) you need the SAGNAC EFFECT.
Again, PURE GARBAGE!
We have been over this countless times with you repeatedly failing to justify your insane claims.
The sagnac effect will be the same regardless of if you accept reality with a rotating Earth, or if you choose to cling to a refuted aether which is stationary with Earth rotating, or the refuted aether which rotates about a stationary Earth, or the refuted aether which rotates with Earth rotating as well.


The Sagnac effect is recorded with ring laser gyroscopes. You blatantly lying about that will not change that fact.
If you wish to disagree, feel free to go back to one of the countless threads on the Sagnac effect you have already been refuted in and try to defend your claims. Maybe start with a derivation, from first principles, starting with how long it takes for light to traverse a stationary loop.

You see John, this is what we have to deal with on a daily basis, courtesy of the fact that we are left defenseless.

They wouldn't dare to talk like this to you or to ski, since they know they will be banned immediately.

You have left this forum to its own devices, and the RE are fully profiting from this fact.

The other mods, while they might be well-intentioned, do not care at all.

So, if we the FE no longer engage in debates, you will be left with pretty much nothing at all.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:27:02 AM by sandokhan »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: my concern
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 11:46:29 AM »
The state of things is not acceptable. I agree with sandokhan that things should change, to allow for productive discussion. Space Cowgirl once agreed to have a discussion with us on deciding the best way to change things. I will suggest that we revisit that. We should discuss the best way forward.

I know that one of the main concerns is over-moderation and such, but there are other solutions. For example, perhaps the express purpose of the forum should not be to debate FE, but to figure out how it could work. Certainly, in many academic institutions the goal is generally to contribute to academia, and figure out how the present models in discussion could work and be bettered.

Perhaps if there is debate, we want some technical moderation. Or, perhaps if we do want to debate, we do not want to do it through 24/7 forum debates with the masses, and want to do it by comparing research articles submitted by the FE and RE. I personally feel that I put a lot of effort in finding authoritative sources and statements for my articles, and I sort of expect the RE should take the time to find sources and statements by qualified authorities to directly contradict the statements by my sources, rather than giving their own opinion. If they can't support their arguments, we don't want to hear it. We might want those who wish to participate to put in significant effort, rather than providing what is essentially a lowly chatroom to all. We should be able to control if and how we want to debate, and decide how else we wish to spend our time otherwise. There is so much else the FES could be doing besides this constant debate.

Whatever the decision, this should be for FE group consensus to decide. I would like Space Cowgirl to start a discussion to discuss the best way we can change things for the better. I think there is enough agreement that things should significantly change in some manner.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:04:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: my concern
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 12:26:29 PM »
Where do you wish to have the discussion? Here or in an FE only area?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Crouton

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Re: my concern
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 12:28:09 PM »
The state of things is not acceptable. I agree with sandokhan that things should change, to allow for productive discussion. Space Cowgirl once agreed to have a discussion with us on deciding the best way to change things. I will suggest that we revisit that. We should discuss the best way forward.

I know that one of the main concerns is over-moderation and such, but there are other solutions. For example, perhaps the express purpose of the forum should not be to debate FE, but to figure out how it could work. Certainly, in many academic institutions the goal is generally to contribute to academia, and figure out how the present models in discussion could work and be bettered.

Perhaps if there is debate, we want some technical moderation. Or, perhaps if we do want to debate, we do not want to do it through 24/7 forum debates with the masses, and want to do it by comparing research articles submitted by the FE and RE. I personally feel that I put a lot of effort in finding authoritative sources and statements for my articles, and I sort of expect the RE should take the time to find sources and statements by qualified authorities to directly contradict the statements by my sources, rather than giving their own opinion. If they can't support their arguments, we don't want to hear it. We might want those who wish to participate to put in significant effort, rather than providing what is essentially a lowly chatroom to all. We should be able to control if and how we want to debate, and decide how else we wish to spend our time otherwise. There is so much else the FES could be doing besides this constant debate.

Whatever the decision, this should be for FE group consensus to decide. I would like Space Cowgirl to start a discussion to discuss the best way we can change things for the better. I think there is enough agreement that things should significantly change in some manner.

Remind me again.  Why are the believer's and flat earth workshop areas insufficient for this purpose?
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

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wise

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Re: my concern
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 12:54:07 PM »
We have discussed many similar issues many times and the management has addressed the believers forum every time. here the management's approach is clear to me. There are some balances and management has to survive with these balances.

Of course, even they can deny, there are other pressure groups and possibilities for them, and they have to consider them. Although they do not share this information with us, it is not difficult to predict crypto tasks. however, when we are in the discussion forums, there is a group that prevents the members of the forum or those who want to contribute to reach the believers and who has made it a profession. we define them by taking "angry globalist". it's not just two, it's more. it is not these people who are important here. Without these people, it is clear that there will be someone else to replace them. that's the task of that group. This is how it is understood. the point that we have emphasized before is that even though it has limited authority, one of us is a moderator, at least against the attacks of angry globalists, which is almost spam, the removal of their offensive writings directly, just like the current administration does, will not disturb the believers in a better quality. will force you to write. here you need a firm believer. On average, our moderators can be considered successful. So one is successful, the other is unsuccessful, their average is average success. however, they do not understand why the discussions are aborted because they do not understand believers. In this respect, even if it is a low scale, a balancing is required.

I do not think that they will take this proposal into account because the events we have experienced so far reveal that it is not the group that makes the decisions and they are all equal staff. nevertheless I want to write the truth and try my luck. Maybe this is the time when the wrong world will begin to be correct and will decide to recover. who knows?

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boydster

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Re: my concern
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 01:11:30 PM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

There was at one point the idea to have an area for more formal debates, and perhaps that is in the direction that is being discussed here. Both sides present an argument, rebuttals, some controlled follow-ups, and then move on to the next debate. Something like that may be easy to implement, itíd be as simple as having a membergroup specifically allowed to use the formal debate board, and people could be added and removed from that membergroup as debates are started and finished. But would it get used and would it improve anything? I honestly donít know, thatís not a loaded question.

Personally Iíd really like to see the Believers board used more. Especially when it comes to members that can post there interacting with each other to help address challenges they see in other models. FE-FE debates. The individual threads are great, and should certainly continue to build and grow as they have been, but it would be really cool to have FE chatting together to establish, to Tomís point, ďif your model were accurate, how would it work.Ē Thatís a great use of the Believers area. And then you have the Debate board to open up to more challenges that perhaps hadnít yet been considered.

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rabinoz

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Re: my concern
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 02:56:40 PM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

There was at one point the idea to have an area for more formal debates, and perhaps that is in the direction that is being discussed here. Both sides present an argument, rebuttals, some controlled follow-ups, and then move on to the next debate. Something like that may be easy to implement, itíd be as simple as having a membergroup specifically allowed to use the formal debate board, and people could be added and removed from that membergroup as debates are started and finished. But would it get used and would it improve anything? I honestly donít know, thatís not a loaded question.

Personally Iíd really like to see the Believers board used more. Especially when it comes to members that can post there interacting with each other to help address challenges they see in other models. FE-FE debates. The individual threads are great, and should certainly continue to build and grow as they have been, but it would be really cool to have FE chatting together to establish, to Tomís point, ďif your model were accurate, how would it work.Ē Thatís a great use of the Believers area. And then you have the Debate board to open up to more challenges that perhaps hadnít yet been considered.
At present, there are a number of prominent FEers: Sandokhan, Sceptimatic, Wise and Tom Bishop who seem to have their own flat-Earth models.
These models conflict on numerous aspects yet each proponent insists, quite explicitly in some cases, that their model is correct and the other three are wrong.

I have often suggested that the Flat Earth Believers Board should be used when FEers want to debate among themselves without any interference.
The idea has gone down like a lead balloon and the Believers board has become a repository for FEers to store their own ideas.
But there already is a Flat Earth Information Repository Board that some use.
At present, anyone can post in the Flat Earth Information Repository Board but maybe that could be restricted to bona fide FEers.
Then the Flat Earth Believers Board encouraged as a board for FEers to debate FEers with a view to coming up with a "Unified Flat Earth Model" with consistent explanations for observations that do not seem to fit that flat Earth model.

Them's my thoughts.


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Crouton

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Re: my concern
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 03:36:52 PM »
Oh.  I forgot about the information repository.  That's an option too since we're extremely strict about moderating that one.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: my concern
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 04:06:08 PM »
Where do you wish to have the discussion? Here or in an FE only area?

After thinking about it I would suggest putting the discussion to the FE first, to discuss the matter and come up with a proposal.

It's easy to say what the FE should do, but the FE are the ones who have to deal with it, after all. Give the thread time for discussion and consensus.

I would like to discuss basic things like "what should the FES be?," "should there even be a debate?," and "if there is a debate, should this be a 24/7 chatroom where everyone and their mother is invited to constantly attack and 'debate' FE, the or should it be something else?" Let the discussion grow for a while and observe what proposals develop and gain consensus.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 04:11:47 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: my concern
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 04:10:40 PM »
Do you want it to be viewable by everyone in FE believers, or private? I don't know if all of you have access to the private forum. (I can easily fix access)
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: my concern
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 04:29:32 PM »
Do you want it to be viewable by everyone in FE believers, or private? I don't know if all of you have access to the private forum. (I can easily fix access)

I personally think that public transparency on this matter is ideal.

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sandokhan

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Re: my concern
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 10:33:16 PM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

No.

We are dealing with very rude and obnoxious behavior coming from two users: jackblack and rabinoz.

On top of that they resort to trolling and humongous lies to dodge any real debate with us.

This is what has to stop. Now. Today.

I used to have mod status, I want it back so I can deliver some heavy-duty technical moderation here.

No one else would put up with this kind of situation: once we take care of these two users, then we are free to run this forum as we want to, not as they want to.

Some of us will go on a full FE strike starting today, some will only post sporadically in the upper forums: you will not get debates out of us until and unless I am given the mod status so we can finally apply the rules to our advantage.

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wise

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Re: my concern
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 10:36:53 PM »
Seems fair. And we can consider alternative solutions too:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=84638.msg2231488#msg2231488

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sceptimatic

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Re: my concern
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 12:39:56 AM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

There was at one point the idea to have an area for more formal debates, and perhaps that is in the direction that is being discussed here. Both sides present an argument, rebuttals, some controlled follow-ups, and then move on to the next debate. Something like that may be easy to implement, itíd be as simple as having a membergroup specifically allowed to use the formal debate board, and people could be added and removed from that membergroup as debates are started and finished. But would it get used and would it improve anything? I honestly donít know, thatís not a loaded question.

Personally Iíd really like to see the Believers board used more. Especially when it comes to members that can post there interacting with each other to help address challenges they see in other models. FE-FE debates. The individual threads are great, and should certainly continue to build and grow as they have been, but it would be really cool to have FE chatting together to establish, to Tomís point, ďif your model were accurate, how would it work.Ē Thatís a great use of the Believers area. And then you have the Debate board to open up to more challenges that perhaps hadnít yet been considered.
At present, there are a number of prominent FEers: Sandokhan, Sceptimatic, Wise and Tom Bishop who seem to have their own flat-Earth models.
These models conflict on numerous aspects yet each proponent insists, quite explicitly in some cases, that their model is correct and the other three are wrong.

I have often suggested that the Flat Earth Believers Board should be used when FEers want to debate among themselves without any interference.
The idea has gone down like a lead balloon and the Believers board has become a repository for FEers to store their own ideas.
But there already is a Flat Earth Information Repository Board that some use.
At present, anyone can post in the Flat Earth Information Repository Board but maybe that could be restricted to bona fide FEers.
Then the Flat Earth Believers Board encouraged as a board for FEers to debate FEers with a view to coming up with a "Unified Flat Earth Model" with consistent explanations for observations that do not seem to fit that flat Earth model.

Them's my thoughts.
I actually agree with this.
We all have to understand that the majority thought in the world in the general lion's share of populations simply believe in a global Earth and out of that lion's share who simply believe it, a small proportion will believe it for reasons they study, rather than most, for reasons of simply adhering to mass opinion and media hype.

Then you'll get some who come onto forums like this to argue against models they do not adhere to and think they're wrong, whilst using massive appeals to authority to back up their claims and also a mass following of like-minded people who will back each other up.

You get some relentless onslaughts by certain posters and it's about how you deal with them.
Some are fair and worthy of dealing with and some simply aren't.

Jackblack is one instance of a poster who I find hard to swallow.
He rarely argues a point but spends a lot of time dissecting quotes and answering to basically, nothing.
This can become tedious for people posting against him or simply watching.

An example of how silly it becomes is something like this:

I'll type.

"Rockets do not work in a vacuum because they need external atmosphere to push against.
"

Jackblack will break it up and come back with:

scepti said:Rockets do not work. And he'd reply with, "look he's saying rockets do not work."

And/or.
scepti said:They need external atmosphere to push against. And he'd answer with " there's no atmosphere in space."

No point in arguing that but no point in me whining about it other than to tell him if he carries that one I'll simply overlook it and answer to the snippets that I think are pertinent, which I do and it works well for me.

I highly suggest anyone else try it with anyone they feel is not worth the effort...and that also includes myself by the way. I'll play it fair.

And I'm not making any complaint about any poster, I'm merely stating a few points.

Anyway the problem isn't the globalists as a whole, it's everyone of us, because everyone of us has a steadfast mindset on what we're arguing, which leads to all kinds of insults and dismissals of theories.

My theories have been ridiculed by flat Earth theorists just as much as globalists have done.
I'm sort of disliked by some flat Earth theorists as much as some globalists...but that's the way it is.

It's easy for one person to believe their theory is correct but we cannot all be correct and none of us may be correct.
If globalists were to accept this could be the case on top of all of us accepting that our hypotheses may not be fact, then the debate rumbles on in the same way but without the insults....in an ideal forum world, I mean.

And when I talk of insults I mean insults, personally, or at least against the poster name which can be construed as forum personal.

It can be a good idea for flat earth theorists to argue their models in a part of the forum that is strictly moderated to keep out globalists who refuse to contemplate anything other than their served up on a platter, model, which means  they have zero need to enter and to argue against alternate Earth models.
Leave that to those who want to question other models, whilst also having their own questioned but doing so in a manner that is more of acceptance of personal alternative theories.
Flat Earth believers caters for this but it doesn't give out anything to coax people in to put their side across to debate it in terms of bringing other alternate theorists in to debate among themselves and actually listen to and question in a manner that is exactly that, rather than resorting to simply arrogant brush offs.

Basically respect and try and understand the position of each person, whether you disagree on everything.


This means a person can argue their theory from their point of view but not argue it as fact, yet any person questioning it should also accept they have to try to see points made by the opposition rather than using their own points on their model as some kind of opposing sword fight.

By doing this we'll all gain some knowledge of each other stance on Earth, even if we do not agree with it.

It just might spawn enough issues for each model to shed more light on potentials.

I'm on here because I absolutely 100% do not believe in anything to do with a global spinning Earth.
I think I've made that pretty clear.
So anyone arguing with me to try and get me to go back to this stance is completely and utterly wasting their time, no matter what tactics are used.

My advice to anyone who gets frustrated with the likes of Jackblack or even me, is to ignore or bypass or take out relevant points you wish to argue/debate.

I will say that Jackblack and Rab (mainly Jackblack) go to extraordinary lengths to push a model that we're all well versed in and have rejected, which I do find rather odd...but then again it depends on who they are and what they do in life, which doesn't have to mean they're agents or whatever. They could be simply bored and staunch supporters of what was indoctrinated into them by the authority they accepted almost unconditionally.



So in a nutshell, anyone who gets frustrated would be best served by easing that frustration by dealing with what is causing it.

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rabinoz

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Re: my concern
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 12:57:47 AM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

No.

We are dealing with very rude and obnoxious behavior coming from two users: jackblack and rabinoz.
Care to substantiate your accusations  of "very rude and obnoxious behavior coming from two users"?

Quote from: sandokhan
On top of that they resort to trolling and humongous lies to dodge any real debate with us.
Care to substantiate your accusations  of "humongous lies to dodge any real debate"?
 

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sandokhan

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Re: my concern
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 01:58:15 AM »
I have to say, I can see both sides here. On the one hand, this being a Flat Earth site, having very assertive and outspoken people on the the RE side of things is certainly something I could see being frustrating. On the other hand, that is quite literally why the FE General and FE Debate boards exist, at least to the best of my knowledge - so FE and RE and discuss and debate ideas, issues, and disagreements between different models.

No.

We are dealing with very rude and obnoxious behavior coming from two users: jackblack and rabinoz.

On top of that they resort to trolling and humongous lies to dodge any real debate with us.

This is what has to stop. Now. Today.

I used to have mod status, I want it back so I can deliver some heavy-duty technical moderation here.

No one else would put up with this kind of situation: once we take care of these two users, then we are free to run this forum as we want to, not as they want to.

Some of us will go on a full FE strike starting today, some will only post sporadically in the upper forums: you will not get debates out of us until and unless I am given the mod status so we can finally apply the rules to our advantage.

Someone has to rein in these two misfits who have been allowed to roam free all over this place.

You don't want to listen to us, we won't collaborate with you either, find someone else to waste their time debating ad nauseam with users who have a definite plan on how to destroy genuine research and discussions (fisking, trolling, rude behavior and much more).

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rabinoz

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Re: my concern
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 03:49:29 AM »
Any who think that Sandokhan might by qualified as a technical or any other moderator ought to consider this:
HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum) ę Reply #992 on: September 07, 2019, 11:58:05 AM Ľ.

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wise

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Re: my concern
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 03:58:28 AM »
There is a right of self determination in democracies. every society has the right to determine its own future. this is also the right of each community to determine its own leader. I do not think like sandokhan in the process of determining a believer moderator. He thinks he should be a moderator because he used to be a moderator. I think it should be one of us, I am okay with this till this point, but if we are talking about justice, we should ask those who believe it who will be, this is democracy. otherwise we will not be different from the globalist ignorants who run this site.

Each community should be run by people who come out of them. We don't have the chance to choose the admins, they have already set up this system and made it work. but there can be agreement on moderators, we have to do it. If moderators feel close to one side of the discussion, they cannot remain neutral during the discussions. therefore they ignore the insults against us. Former members who know this attitude use this situation in their own favor and have become a means of discussion by former members of openly insult and manipulation. and this makes most of the discussions unsustainable. If the discussion has two sides and one person is directing the discussion, that person should either be a neutral one or one person from both views should be competent. otherwise, even if they claim to be neutral, they try to be neutral, they fail.
I want to give an example. now sandokhan wrote something and jackblack responded in response to this: "how stupid ahahahah!: D". Now the moderator who follows the subject here is thinking about the same thing as jackblack because he is a globalist, what Sandokhan wrote is stupid, and therefore Jackblack's reaction is usual. But actually there is insult here. The fact that the moderator agrees with jackblack prevents him from seeing the insult here. To see the insult Sandokhan lived here, a moderator must either be a flat earther or really neutral. here are neutral members who can understand both sides, such as faded mike, twerp, shikter or pezevenk.

However, since one of the moderators designated here is a normal globalist and the other is an angry globalist, sometimes they can even see the extreme insults we are exposed to as normal. because according to the moderation we are stupid, fool, unscientific, ignorant people who make nonsense comments nothing but bullshit. so when someone insults us with these words, they can't perceive an insult here.

It has nothing to do with their professionalism, it has to do with faith.

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boydster

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Re: my concern
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2020, 04:24:37 AM »
I'm locking this thread. There is an open thread in the Believers section to further address this.