Seasons (ctd)

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Seasons (ctd)
« on: December 29, 2019, 09:50:52 AM »
So we have it in FE theory that the seasons are caused by the radius of the circle that the travels in over the flat Earth increasing and decreasing. It reaches the smallest radius on 21st June (northern hemisphere summer) when the Sun reaches it furthest point north and it reaches its maximum radius on 21st December when the Sun reaches its furthest distance south.

What I want to know is what causes this variation in the radius of the Suns orbit over the flat Earth.  So far I have it that it is caused by some sort of 'interaction' between the Universal Accelerator and the Sun.  How that works has yet to be explained.

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sokarul

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2019, 10:03:42 AM »
Any answer you get will be ad hoc. They don’t know.
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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2019, 11:04:34 AM »
Well there seems to be a lot of claiming going on but very little explaining on the FE side. Perhaps they would say you don't need to know something to believe it.  Whatever it will be interesting.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2019, 11:12:50 AM »
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something.

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2019, 11:21:34 AM »
Any answer you get will be ad hoc. They don’t know.

Pretty hard to conceive of an answer that wouldn’t violate the principle of conservation of angular momentum as well.

But this question seems to be getting too far ahead, as I don’t believe I’ve seen a mechanism for the sun doing any kind of circle above a flat earth.  That should be the first thing to explain, shouldn’t it?


Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2019, 11:26:00 AM »
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something.

Well that sentence makes no sense. 

I’d say instead that the people who dream this stuff up owe some kind of explanation to the thousands of YouTube subscribers they make money off.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2019, 11:28:58 AM »
If you want explanations from youtubers, you should ask them on youtube.

Everyone else, this is the debate section of the forum. Stop spamming.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2019, 11:40:55 AM »
I don't spam on purpose.
I wish I had an excuse.  :(

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2019, 11:44:15 AM »
Quote
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something

Well a clear explanation would be good for starters I guess.  That seems to be the one thing no one seems to be able to give up to now.  The centre of rotation (and therefore centre of orbit) is said to be marked by the north pole, or at least a point directly above it (3000 miles above it?).  But what makes the Sun do that when there is nothing there to make the Sun move in a circle?  It makes no sense. Maybe there is some massive body there that we simply (for whatever reason) cannot see. And secondly what causes the radius of that orbit vary over a period which seems to by some miracle match the length of a year?!?

That's what FE theory claims causes the seasons but no one seems to be able to tell me why or how.  For RE the seasons are caused and explained by the tilt of the Earths axis and its orbit around the Sun.  The Sun reaches a maximum elongation north and south of the celestial equator of 23.5 degrees which is equal (and therefore caused by) to the tilt of its axis. 

But I'm guessing since FE don't seem to accept either of those they must have an alternative explanation.

See other thread of the same title as this.  This post was supposed to be included under that other thread and I would delete this post if I could.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 03:05:59 AM by Solarwind »

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2019, 03:04:20 AM »
Quote
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something.

What do you mean by 'owes me something?' I am just asking for an explanation about something that FE is claiming.  Clearly the RE account for why the seasons happen is incompatible with the FE account.

We (RE) say that the seasons are caused by the fact that the Earth is tilted by 23.5 degrees w.r.t its orbital plane. That means for half of its orbit the northern hemisphere is tilted towards the Sun so making the days longer, and for the other half of the year the southern hemisphere is tilted towards the Sun (as it is now) so the days are currently longer south of the equator. Evidence for this is provided in the real world by the fact that the Suns maximum elongation north or south of the celestial equator is also 23.5 degrees. For example we are currently just passed the December solstice and the Suns declination is -23d 11m 8s.

So RE has provided an explanation of why we have seasons. The reason why the Earths axis is tilted is because long ago in the Earths history it was impacted by another body during the late heavy bombardment phase and this also resulted in the formation of the Moon. The collision set off a 'wobbling' of the Earth which is still happening today and measured by the 'precession' effect of the Poles. Hardly detectable over the period of a human lifetime, this precession effect nevertheless has had an effect on the length of the seasons over time.  Evidence for these variation can be found in geological records.

All FE seems to be able to come up with is that the Sun moves in a circle above the flat Earth (as if by magic) and that the radius of the circle varies during the year in a way that just happens to coincide with the length of the year. Again as if by magic. How is all that explained?  What are the mechanisms that cause that to happen?

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rabinoz

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2019, 03:19:11 AM »
Here's one of Ski's answers from the Q&A thread. Does it help?
Flow around a flat plate cylinder results in the formation of stable von Karman vortices. The heavens appear to be so ensconced. It's not that complicated.

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2019, 03:28:46 AM »
Here's one of Ski's answers from the Q&A thread. Does it help?
Flow around a flat plate cylinder results in the formation of stable von Karman vortices. The heavens appear to be so ensconced. It's not that complicated.

Haha.

No, it doesn’t.

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rabinoz

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2019, 04:17:57 AM »
Here's one of Ski's answers from the Q&A thread. Does it help?
Flow around a flat plate cylinder results in the formation of stable von Karman vortices. The heavens appear to be so ensconced. It's not that complicated.

Haha.

No, it doesn’t.
Well do some research on "stable von Karmon vortices" and learn all about the critical Reynolds number to ensure their stability.

And you'll probably still be none the wiser though you'll then realise that it's just another unsupported FE hypothesis, ie a guess.

A guess is not that bad if it is then supported by evidence but if not it's just a guess.

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2019, 06:01:46 AM »
Here's one of Ski's answers from the Q&A thread. Does it help?
Flow around a flat plate cylinder results in the formation of stable von Karman vortices. The heavens appear to be so ensconced. It's not that complicated.

Haha.

No, it doesn’t.
Well do some research on "stable von Karmon vortices" and learn all about the critical Reynolds number to ensure their stability.

And you'll probably still be none the wiser though you'll then realise that it's just another unsupported FE hypothesis, ie a guess.

A guess is not that bad if it is then supported by evidence but if not it's just a guess.

I have some experience with fluid modeling. Not much that involves vortex shredding, but I kind of get the principle.

As I suggested above, before trying to explain why the orbit/path of the sun changes, we need a mechanism for why it’s doing circles in the first place.  Otherwise it’s all meaningless.

If Kármán vortices are responsible for pushing and pulling the sun to inner and outer positions, does that mean that the sun is being pulled in a fluid around some kind of central vortex?  If so, what is the fluid, and what causes that vortex?  Whatever that is, it clearly needs to interact strongly with mass.  Unless the sun is massless of course?

Not that complicated, my arse.  A real explanation for this would be very complicated.

I think you are being far too generous calling it an unsupported hypothesis.  It’s a hand wave.

PS. Thanks for giving a flat earth answer anyway. 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:06:32 AM by Unconvinced »

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Ski

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2019, 12:32:25 AM »
Quote
If Kármán vortices are responsible for pushing and pulling the sun to inner and outer positions, does that mean that the sun is being pulled in a fluid around some kind of central vortex?  If so, what is the fluid, and what causes that vortex? 

The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

Quote
Not that complicated, my arse.  A real explanation for this would be very complicated.
"Real explanations" of celestial mechanics tend to be very complicated, yes...  See, three-body problem.

A simple explanation, however, is often quite simple. As above.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Yes

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2019, 06:09:50 AM »
Beginner flat earth:  "I look outside and I see a flat horizon!  I don't need no scientific elitists telling me what's real.  I use my own senses!"

Advanced flat earth: "Yes well you see, the ships going over the curve is actually an illusion caused by the interaction of light on a sub-etheric boson quantum field with the stable harmonic spacetime vortex of unseen luminaries and dark matter as they are accelerated upwards by unknown forces.  I can't prove it or provide any evidence, but it's the only explanation since earth is flat."
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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2019, 07:47:57 AM »
Quote
If Kármán vortices are responsible for pushing and pulling the sun to inner and outer positions, does that mean that the sun is being pulled in a fluid around some kind of central vortex?  If so, what is the fluid, and what causes that vortex? 

The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

Yes, the idea of Aether has been generally superseded by relatively, because relatively explains observations better.

But Luminiferous Aether was thought to be a medium for light to propagate in, that doesn’t  interact with mass.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether

Which would make it hard to form vortices flowing around the edge of the earth.  Harder still to push the sun and moon around. 

Whatever you are proposing would have to be very different from the Aether Newton subscribed to.  Einstein sometimes used the term Aether to describe space time, but that is different again.  Perhaps you want to go back to ancient definitions of Aether, when it was thought to be more like a physical fluid?

Some clarification would be helpful.

Maybe I should rephrase my above question, it wasn’t very clear.  Are you suggesting that these vortices cause the motion of the sun in its daily circuit?  Or just the seasonal changes to that motion?

Quote
Quote
Not that complicated, my arse.  A real explanation for this would be very complicated.
"Real explanations" of celestial mechanics tend to be very complicated, yes...  See, three-body problem.

A simple explanation, however, is often quite simple. As above.

Calculating the trajectory is complicated, but the basic principle is very simple:

Momentum + Gravity = Orbits

That’s really all I need to be able to visualize the motions in the solar system.

Whereas your Kármán vortices answer doesn’t give me nearly enough to see how it’s supposed to work.  Maybe there’s more to it?  I don’t know.

If you know of a more detailed explanation, I’d be genuinely interested. 

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Ski

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2020, 03:36:02 PM »
Quote
Yes, the idea of Aether has been generally superseded by relatively, because relatively explains observations better.

Most academics now believe in an aether.  They just often don't call it "aether".   Relativity doesn't supersede an aether. It just explains gravitation and light propagation without having to define an aether medium.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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sokarul

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2020, 05:12:21 PM »
Incorrect
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rabinoz

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2020, 05:33:08 PM »
Quote
Yes, the idea of Aether has been generally superseded by relatively, because relatively explains observations better.

Most academics now believe in an aether.  They just often don't call it "aether".   Relativity doesn't supersede an aether. It just explains gravitation and light propagation without having to define an aether medium.
But the ether of modern Quantum gravity is nothing like the luminiferous aether of old.

Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2020, 02:20:05 AM »
Quote
Yes, the idea of Aether has been generally superseded by relatively, because relatively explains observations better.

Most academics now believe in an aether.  They just often don't call it "aether".   Relativity doesn't supersede an aether. It just explains gravitation and light propagation without having to define an aether medium.

Er, did you bother to read past my first sentence?

I already pointed out that some scientists use the term Aether to describe different concepts- Newton’s Luminiferous Aether, Spacetime, quantum vacuum energy, etc.  Other scientists use these concepts without referring to them as Aether.

However none of them describe Aether as a physical fluid, which your explanation appears to require.

What is it with flat earthers here trying to appeal to physicists who clearly have a very different idea of the universe?

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Yes

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2020, 05:26:46 AM »
If you want to claim that ether is the same as the electromagnetic quantum field, then you're going to have to play by the electromagnetic quantum field's rules.
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Timeisup

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2020, 05:28:30 AM »
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something.

I thought this was supposed to be a place to debate flat earth ideas? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2020, 08:06:36 AM »
You appear to believe that Flat Earth owes you something.

I thought this was supposed to be a place to debate flat earth ideas? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you bothered to read the thread you'd see I already told them to stop spamming. Now I'm telling you.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2020, 09:30:54 AM »
Not a FE'r but here is a rudimentary try at explaining the FE Sun and Seasons. 

Flat Earth rotates.  Sun does not orbit but swings like a pendulum on a fixed axial plane resulting in the change of seasons.

I'm sure there are plenty of flaws and things not explained, but I'm not a FE'r and only here for the entertainment.


Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2020, 11:25:48 AM »


The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

I have honestly no idea what this has to do with the seasons?
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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2020, 02:15:43 PM »


The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

I have honestly no idea what this has to do with the seasons?

I think the idea is for the universal acceleration thing only.  The accelerator pushes the Aether past the rim of the earth, forming steady vortex patterns that somehow push and pull the sun into its respective paths.  Or something.

It all sounds pretty vague.  If that’s wrong, maybe someone can correct me.

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rabinoz

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2020, 06:49:17 PM »

The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

I have honestly no idea what this has to do with the seasons?

I think the idea is for the universal acceleration thing only.  The accelerator pushes the Aether past the rim of the earth, forming steady vortex patterns that somehow push and pull the sun into its respective paths.  Or something.

It all sounds pretty vague.  If that’s wrong, maybe someone can correct me.
Even if the "The space-time medium ('aether') " can interact with matter in the way postulated I fail to see how these irregular vortices could cause each of the Sun, Moon, planets, asteroids, comets and stars to move in such different but predictable patterns.
Eclipses, transits of Venus and Mercury etc and the arrival of comets can be predicted centuries in advance.

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Ski

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2020, 10:51:44 PM »
Incorrect
No.
But the ether of modern Quantum gravity is nothing like the luminiferous aether of old.
Thank you for adding absolutely nothing of substance to a conversation in the way only you can.



The space-time medium ("aether" is so looked down upon these days, don't you know)? Or specifically the flow of that medium due to the *universal accelerator ", "aetheric wind", "dark energy" , etc

The vortex is formed as the flow separates passing the earth.

I have honestly no idea what this has to do with the seasons?

That's nice.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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rabinoz

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Re: Seasons (ctd)
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2020, 12:04:51 AM »
But the ether of modern Quantum gravity is nothing like the luminiferous aether of old.
Thank you for adding absolutely nothing of substance to a conversation in the way only you can.
That would imply that your claim of any connection between your aether and the ether of modern science was irrelevant.

Quote from: Ski
I have honestly no idea what this has to do with the seasons?

That's nice.
Now, instead of you explaining nothing, how about explaining
how these irregular vortices could cause each of the Sun, Moon, planets, asteroids, comets and stars to move in such different but predictable patterns.
Eclipses, transits of Venus and Mercury etc and the arrival of comets can be predicted centuries in advance.
Remember that you wrote:
Flow around a flat plate cylinder results in the formation of stable von Karman vortices. The heavens appear to be so ensconced. It's not that complicated.
I can find no references to any Von Karman vortices that could provide explanation.
There are videos like these:

Von Karman Vortex Street behind a flat plate (Laminar) by Paul Nathan

And

Von Karman vortex street (laminar, temperature), Re = 250 by DolfynNet

Nothing there seems relevant so do you have any references that might explain "how these irregular vortices could cause each of the Sun, Moon, planets, asteroids, comets and stars to move in such different but predictable patterns"?