GPS

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2020, 08:57:58 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 09:01:21 AM by markjo »
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totallackey

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Re: GPS
« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2020, 09:11:50 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.

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sokarul

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Re: GPS
« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2020, 09:46:50 AM »
Now, that's just bad engineering sokarul.
I didn’t say anything about engineering. Although it would be a great engineering feat to get global coverage when nothing else non satellite based covers the globe.


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36000000 would be the yearly price tag, and who knows for initial setup; and one can engineer within that price to a certain accuracy. I find it hard to believe you can make such a statement without a lot of work.
That number is made up. The top secret generic gps faking tower service techs and engineers’ salaries would be more than that.

Initial cost would be unimaginable.

Anyways I think you are ignoring the global part. North Korea and Iran are not going to let some company just put up thousands of towers let alone launch thousands of balloons.

Quote
It is also interesting to know that since satellites don't transmit their actual positions, their accuracy is questionable and has to be adjusted using ground based transmitters anyways if a certain level of accuracy is desired.
While orbits are predictable there are still ways to introduce error which needs to be corrected.
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Themightykabool

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Re: GPS
« Reply #153 on: March 30, 2020, 10:22:51 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.

Tanks
Troops
Ships
Remote missile launchers
Secret bunkers...

Because it was created by the military.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #154 on: March 30, 2020, 10:42:04 AM »
Your thinking John goes something like this.

I believe the world is flat, therefore there can be no such thing as satellites that orbit a spherical earth.
GPS does work, billions of people use it, therefore it must come from a system that is ground-based...
When arguing with John you have to remember that he doesn't use the more traditional disc or flat plane models.  He supports a non-Euclidean flat earth that behaves an awful lot like a globe, so satellites may be possible in his model.
Sometimes, in science, there are indeed competing theories that are about as likely, given what we see, all of them asking us to accept weird things and it's up to us to find one which we are the most comfortable with. Various interpretations of quantum mechanics is one example. But the John Davis'es Flat-Earth and Round Earth theory really aren't the same. The idea that gravity doesn't exist, but that we are living in a non-Euclidean space (obviously contradicting the theory of relativity) is significantly more complicated than the idea that we are living on a sphere. And it doesn't even properly explain the same observations. You can't derive the formula for the distance to the horizon or the angle at which you see the horizon from the John Davis'es theory, it makes no predictions as clear as that. Round-Earth theory, on the other hand, explains these things perfectly. Also, it fails to explain some observations at all. If there is no gravity and the reason things fall down is that the Earth is constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 m/s^2, how it is that, if you climb on a mountain, the force you are being pulled down with is measurably lower? The John Davis'es Flat-Earth theory is obviously more complicated than the theory that the Earth is round, and it doesn't explain the things we see equally well, and any reasonable person would reject it.

Firstly you can not put what John Davis thinks on the same level as any theory conventional science may have. The scientific understanding we have has come through a pretty tortuous route of discovery. The ideas that formed it produced by many talented and gifted scientists. To put Davis in that company I think would be not just a great disservice but an abomination to the men and women who have brought our level of understanding to where we are now. As far as I can see Davis has contributed less than nothing as far as  scientific endeavor is concerned, that is unless you think claiming moonlight is dangerous, dinosaurs don't exist, or that we live on an infinite plane or penguins were produced by rouge Nazi scientists. Though he does have the option of proving me wrong by listing his proven scientific achievements.
Yes. And even if John Davis did have some scientific achievements (which is itself unlikely), that would only prove it's possible for an educated person to be duped into believing those things. Claims need to be analyzed independently. A person who is educated in the relevant fields of science, or even just the scientific method, is unlikely to be very mistaken about matters of hard science, but such things do happen.
Flat-Earthers probably think scientists are rejecting their ideas only because Flat-Earthers themselves aren't a part of academia. No, that's not the primary reason scientists reject those ideas, the primary reason they reject those ideas is because they defy the scientific method and the principles of logic (Occam's Razor...). And it's presumably because Flat-Earthers are uneducated, it's not the other way around.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #155 on: March 30, 2020, 10:54:37 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #156 on: March 30, 2020, 11:26:33 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.

It has been shown that a 'GPS' type system is being developed for use on Mars, or so it says in the link you provided. It did not say it was to be used on planet Earth. would you not agree? The satellite based system we currently used works pretty well would you not agree?
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Re: GPS
« Reply #157 on: March 30, 2020, 11:27:26 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2020, 11:30:15 AM »
Now, that's just bad engineering sokarul.

36000000 would be the yearly price tag, and who knows for initial setup; and one can engineer within that price to a certain accuracy. I find it hard to believe you can make such a statement without a lot of work.

It is also interesting to know that since satellites don't transmit their actual positions, their accuracy is questionable and has to be adjusted using ground based transmitters anyways if a certain level of accuracy is desired.
The satellite GPS system we all know and love is accurate to around 16ft I would say that's far from questionable. Is that not accurate enough to find your way from A to B? No one is forcing you to use it, John.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2020, 11:31:21 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.

How do you know this John?
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2020, 11:36:02 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.

Apparently you like the research from Stanford Univerity John. If that's the case then anything you would like to know can be found here.
https://gps.stanford.edu

Thet say it is all satellite-based John. and I thought you trusted them? After all Stanford has been widely considered the world’s leading academic institution performing PNT, GPS and GNSS research.
https://scpnt.stanford.edu
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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Re: GPS
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2020, 11:51:19 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.

How do you know this John?
I wouldn't say I know anything, that pointedly. I suspect it for the same reason people suspect Einstein was right.
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2020, 12:03:45 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.
I know one thing that isn't located in many remote locations: radio towers.  There are many cell phone dead zones located throughout the US and the rest of the world.
https://www.deadcellzones.com/cell-towers.html
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #163 on: March 30, 2020, 01:44:56 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.

How do you know this John?
I wouldn't say I know anything, that pointedly. I suspect it for the same reason people suspect Einstein was right.

You are correct Einstien was right in many of the many things he said, a real genius. The Hafele–Keating experiment was a good example that proved he was correct in regard to relativity both special and general, which leads us neatly back to GPS which takes account of these relativistic effects in its calculations. The other funny thing is the only reason why these relativistic effects need to be taken into account is.......you guessed it because of the satellites orbiting 20000 Km above the surface of the globe.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2020, 02:03:54 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
I think you mean this thread:
I DON"T WANT TO ADMIT THAT GPS USES SATELLITES WHICH FE CAN"T EXPLAIN!!! :'( :'( :'(
Instead I'll just fail at playing semantics, avoiding the issue of the real GPS in use today which uses satellites which can also provide accurate height data and instead focus on a hypothetical ground based system, and play with semantics pretending GPS isn't the name of a particular system.


The point of this thread, which you seem to intentionally miss, is that GPS uses satellites. How does FE explain this?

It is also interesting to know that since satellites don't transmit their actual positions, their accuracy is questionable and has to be adjusted using ground based transmitters anyways if a certain level of accuracy is desired.
Because transmitting their position with each transmission would take up too much data and require it to be continually updated as it moves in its orbit.
Instead they transmit their orbital parameters which allows you to determine the position.

But their accuracy isn't really questionable. It is fairly well known. If you want to know your position more accurately than GPS alone provides you need to use more transmitters, such as ground based ones.

36000000 would be the yearly price tag, and who knows for initial setup; and one can engineer within that price to a certain accuracy. I find it hard to believe you can make such a statement without a lot of work.
And where did you pull that from?

Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that?
It's called general relativity.
It has the round Earth distort spacetime such that satellites fly in a geodesic.
John like pretending that that magically means Earth is flat.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2020, 04:46:33 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.

How do you know this John?
I wouldn't say I know anything, that pointedly. I suspect it for the same reason people suspect Einstein was right.

You are correct Einstien was right in many of the many things he said, a real genius. The Hafele–Keating experiment was a good example that proved he was correct in regard to relativity both special and general, which leads us neatly back to GPS which takes account of these relativistic effects in its calculations. The other funny thing is the only reason why these relativistic effects need to be taken into account is.......you guessed it because of the satellites orbiting 20000 Km above the surface of the globe.
I did guess it. So let's say you are on one of those satellites. Do you think you'd feel acceleration?
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2020, 05:43:20 PM »
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
But are those satellites "traveling their inertial paths in straight lines" in 3-D Euclidean space?

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #167 on: March 31, 2020, 05:10:28 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
Simple? Jesus Christ, I am having trouble believing you are serious. Why is the first cosmic speed finite if the Earth is flat? On a round Earth, the concept of the first cosmic speed makes perfect sense, it’s the speed at which the centrifugal force caused by you going around the Earth at certain speed matches the gravitational force. But on a flat Earth? How does it make any sense that, if you move horizontally at certain speed, you start accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth? It doesn’t. Show me the math that predicts that!
And that’s just the beginning. How it is that satellites that go faster end up flying higher? If the Earth is round, and there is gravity, that makes perfect sense, the gravity offsets the centrifugal force of a body moving at a certain speed at different heights, for gravity is weaker up in the sky. How does even the concept of gravity being weaker when you climb on a mountain make any sense if “gravity” is caused by the flat Earth accelerating upwards? It doesn’t. That fact significantly undermines that claim.
And you can test the fact that gravitational acceleration changes with height yourself, quite a few mobile phones today come with an accelerometer that’s precise enough that it can measure the difference in gravity on a high mountain and on the sea level. Or you can buy a more precise accelerometer and you don’t even have to climb a mountain, just climb a building to see that effect.
No, I mean, Flat-Earth Theory is obviously just a bunch of ad-hoc hypotheses. If you assume the Earth is round and things fall because of gravity, the fact that satellites are possible makes perfect sense, and the fact that gravity is weaker when you are at a higher elevation makes perfect sense. It follows from the Earth being round, if you assume the Newton’s laws are correct or approximately correct, as they obviously are. If you assume the Earth is flat, nothing makes sense, you need to add layers upon layers of ad-hoc hypotheses. And you end up with a “theory” that makes no clear predictions.
Similarly with the horizon, the Earth being round predicts there will be a horizon which will be visible from certain heights and at certain angles (that it will be significantly below your eye-level when you are on an airplane) that can be calculated using basic trigonometry. Flat-Earth theory doesn’t predict that, in order to explain those observations, you need to add layers upon layers of ad-hoc hypotheses, and again you can’t make any clear predictions.
Sorry, but any reasonable person would reject Flat-Earth theory because of that.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Re: GPS
« Reply #168 on: March 31, 2020, 10:35:55 AM »
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
But are those satellites "traveling their inertial paths in straight lines" in 3-D Euclidean space?
I've never seen any such thing as a Euclidean space in real life. Working. Will reply to other messages in a bit.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 10:42:53 AM by John Davis »
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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Re: GPS
« Reply #169 on: March 31, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.

I don't really see any need to address your strawmen. It has been well established at this point. You can take that knowledge or not. If you want to see more discussion on the matter, there are a ton of threads you can pursue using search or via google.
For the GPS devices you have (embedded into your phone, the GPS device in your car) to operate properly, satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky are needed. And there are multiple lines of evidence of that, including the fact that they can tell the elevation you are at with signal from 3 emitters and the fact that many of them have open-source software which obviously relies on receiving signal from emitters that follow the orbit which is 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. I thought we agree on that.
Assuming we agree on that, what's holding the satellites up in the sky? If the Earth is flat, it's not the centrifugal force. Do you think the non-Euclidean nature of the space we supposedly live in enables them to? Do you have some mathematical model which predicts that? The mathematical model, if we assume Round Earth, is rather simple. How is your model better than the Round Earth model? Can you make some falsifiable prediction based on your model that's different from what Round Earth predicts?
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
Simple? Jesus Christ, I am having trouble believing you are serious. Why is the first cosmic speed finite if the Earth is flat?


On a round Earth, the concept of the first cosmic speed makes perfect sense, it’s the speed at which the centrifugal force caused by you going around the Earth at certain speed matches the gravitational force. But on a flat Earth? How does it make any sense that, if you move horizontally at certain speed, you start accelerating upwards at the same rate as the Earth? It doesn’t. Show me the math that predicts that!
Incorrect. There is no such thing as a gravitational force. Gravity is not a force.

Quote
And that’s just the beginning. How it is that satellites that go faster end up flying higher? If the Earth is round, and there is gravity, that makes perfect sense, the gravity offsets the centrifugal force of a body moving at a certain speed at different heights, for gravity is weaker up in the sky. How does even the concept of gravity being weaker when you climb on a mountain make any sense if “gravity” is caused by the flat Earth accelerating upwards? It doesn’t. That fact significantly undermines that claim.
And you can test the fact that gravitational acceleration changes with height yourself, quite a few mobile phones today come with an accelerometer that’s precise enough that it can measure the difference in gravity on a high mountain and on the sea level. Or you can buy a more precise accelerometer and you don’t even have to climb a mountain, just climb a building to see that effect.
No, I mean, Flat-Earth Theory is obviously just a bunch of ad-hoc hypotheses. If you assume the Earth is round and things fall because of gravity, the fact that satellites are possible makes perfect sense, and the fact that gravity is weaker when you are at a higher elevation makes perfect sense. It follows from the Earth being round, if you assume the Newton’s laws are correct or approximately correct, as they obviously are. If you assume the Earth is flat, nothing makes sense, you need to add layers upon layers of ad-hoc hypotheses. And you end up with a “theory” that makes no clear predictions.
Similarly with the horizon, the Earth being round predicts there will be a horizon which will be visible from certain heights and at certain angles (that it will be significantly below your eye-level when you are on an airplane) that can be calculated using basic trigonometry. Flat-Earth theory doesn’t predict that, in order to explain those observations, you need to add layers upon layers of ad-hoc hypotheses, and again you can’t make any clear predictions.
Sorry, but any reasonable person would reject Flat-Earth theory because of that.
I can explain these to you with ease.

So let's say you are on one of those satellites. Do you think you'd feel acceleration?
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #170 on: March 31, 2020, 01:44:12 PM »
Simple? Jesus Christ, I am having trouble believing you are serious.
The model John Davis is supporting is the RE model, he just falsely claims it is flat, falsely appealing to non-Euclidean space as if that magically makes it correct.

He appeals to general relativity which has gravity not as a force, but as a distortion of spacetime, making spacetime non-Euclidean (i.e. non-flat).
Satellites follow a geodesic in spacetime (which he calls a straight line, as it is the non-Euclidean equivalent to a straight line). This causes them to orbit Earth in space.
The speed is based upon the distortion of spacetime by Earth.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #171 on: March 31, 2020, 03:30:35 PM »
Incorrect. There is no such thing as a gravitational force. Gravity is not a force.
Sure "Gravity is not a force".
I would, however, disagree with "There being no such thing as a gravitational force" if "gravitational force" can be interpreted as a force caused by gravitation.

Mass causes spacetime to curve and preventing an object from following its natural "curve" in spacetime, a geodesic, causes an inertial force.

So stopping an object, like you, falling through the floor causes a force to be applied to your feet.
There is nothing wrong with calling that inertial force a "gravitational force".
So gravity might not be a force but gravitation certainly can cause a force.

Quote from: John Davis
I can explain these to you with ease.
OK, explain away.
Quote from: John Davis
So let's say you are on one of those satellites. Do you think you'd feel acceleration?
No, if the satellite is in a circular orbit it's simply because the acceleration due to gravitation is exactly cancelled by the centripetal acceleration.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #172 on: March 31, 2020, 03:46:02 PM »
Yes, the satellites are traveling their inertial paths in straight lines. Rather simple I'd say.
But are those satellites "traveling their inertial paths in straight lines" in 3-D Euclidean space?
I've never seen any such thing as a Euclidean space in real life. Working. Will reply to other messages in a bit.
But how much does the 3-D space we live in deviate from being a 3-D Euclidean space? Enough to even measure?

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #173 on: March 31, 2020, 04:45:29 PM »
Simple? Jesus Christ, I am having trouble believing you are serious.
The model John Davis is supporting is the RE model, he just falsely claims it is flat, falsely appealing to non-Euclidean space as if that magically makes it correct.

He appeals to general relativity which has gravity not as a force, but as a distortion of spacetime, making spacetime non-Euclidean (i.e. non-flat).
Satellites follow a geodesic in spacetime (which he calls a straight line, as it is the non-Euclidean equivalent to a straight line). This causes them to orbit Earth in space.
The speed is based upon the distortion of spacetime by Earth.
This is patently incorrect. I am not falsely claiming it is flat. However, you just can't help but trying to poison folks against our ideas. Sometimes I wonder if you two would argue against me if I said the sky was blue.
If you can't argue both sides, you understnd neite;Dr

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #174 on: March 31, 2020, 05:00:28 PM »
This is patently incorrect. I am not falsely claiming it is flat.
How does your non-Euclidean flat earth fundamentally differ from a globe (also non-Euclidean) earth?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #175 on: March 31, 2020, 06:20:20 PM »
However, you just can't help but trying to poison folks against our ideas.
Only when you try to push ideas with no supporting evidence.

Quote from: John Davis
Sometimes I wonder if you two would argue against me if I said the sky was blue.
I don't know who "you two" are but if you make a ridiculous claim like the Earth's being flat it's no holds barred.

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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #176 on: April 01, 2020, 01:19:39 AM »
This is patently incorrect.
I gave you the opportunity to explain just what is incorrect about it and you seemed to have just ignored the opportunity.
An honest, rational assesment of your idea of the "non-Euclidean flat Earth modle", including based upon the blog on this website, is that it is the RE model where relativity and axioms of Euclidean geometry are being flasely applied to pretend Earth is flat.

It seems the only difference between the RE model in non-Euclidean spacetime and your model is that you define Earth to be flat, based upon falsely applying axioms of Euclidean geometry in non-Euclidean spacetime and conflating space and spacetime.

It is a quite simple fact that the surface of Earth does NOT follow a geodesic in spacetime and thus a line on it cannot be considered to be "straight" in spacetime.

If you wish to disagree then stop just saying I am wrong or ignoring me and actually justify your claims.

Unlike Timeisup I wont argue against common FE models and instead I will go right for your conflation of spacetime and space and your use of axioms of Euclidean geometry in non-Euclidean spacetime. Is that why you didn't take me up on your chance to explain where you think I was wrong?

Sometimes I wonder if you two would argue against me if I said the sky was blue.
I have shown quite clearly that that is almost certainly not the case, such as when I argued against Timeisup and I defended the fact that a hypothetical infinite plane is stable under gravity.

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MicroBeta

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Re: GPS
« Reply #177 on: April 01, 2020, 06:14:31 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.
How about at sea...in the middle of the ocean.

Mike
Since it costs 2.72¢ to produce a penny, putting in your 2¢ if really worth 5.44¢.

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Themightykabool

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Re: GPS
« Reply #178 on: April 01, 2020, 06:55:25 AM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.
How about at sea...in the middle of the ocean.

Mike

Mahbe lackless thinks "remote" is impossible - govt spies are everywhere.
The conspiracy covers everything

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: GPS
« Reply #179 on: April 01, 2020, 03:01:23 PM »
This thread:  I dOn'T wAnT tO aDmIt ThE sImPlE fAcT tHaT GpS dOeS nOt ReQuIrE SaTeLiTes.
John, I will freely admit that geolocation services in general do not require satellites.  However, if you want global coverage (as in GPS) in even the most remote locations, then there really is no viable alternative to using satellites.
Yes there is.

You have no idea as to what is located in any "remote," location.
I know one thing that isn't located in many remote locations: radio towers.  There are many cell phone dead zones located throughout the US and the rest of the world.
https://www.deadcellzones.com/cell-towers.html

I like how this is overlooked.  I said something identical.  A GPS will work in areas where there is no cellular reception.
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.