GPS

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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2020, 01:38:47 PM »
This was in response to the unsupported claim that GPS uses satellites. It does not. An implementation of a GPS might. This is not unsupported. It is self inherent. It was not a claim but a dismissal of an unsupported claim.
No, GPS (as in the system in use today and how it was designed) does use satellites. A hypothetical implementation of a system to determine your position on the globe might not, and it can be supplemented by ground based transmitters, but currently GPS does use satellites.

GPS isn't some broad class of things, it is a particular system in use today.
Just like GLONASS.

It would be like saying the flat earth society forums don't use php and that just an implementation of it might. It is blatantly false. That does use php but it is hypothetically possible to use other things like python or asp.

Also note: "Not required" and "does not use" are 2 vastly different claims.

But all of that just to avoid the real issue, how does a FE explain these satellites?, and no I don't mean your "flat" earth which is just the round Earth. I mean a flat Earth model where Earth is actually flat.

a GPS system that doesn't use satellites wouldn't be able to accurately tell your 3D position with signal from just three emitters
GPS needs 4.
It is solving a 4D problem, not a 3D problem. Time is also a variable.

Re: GPS
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2020, 03:02:13 AM »
GPS needs 4.
It is solving a 4D problem, not a 3D problem. Time is also a variable.

Do I have this right?

Satellites have (multiple) atomic clocks, which are accurate, but receivers don’t.  If we used properly set atomic clocks on receivers we could get locations just on the intersections of spheres of the transmission as follows:

2 satellites in line of sight gives 4 possible locations, 2 above and 2 below the satellites.  So 2 possible locations (assuming you aren’t in space).

3 satellites gives 2 possible locations, 1 above and 1 below.  So really only one possible location.

However, since the receiver clock is not accurate, a 4th satellite is needed to remove clock bias.  And presumably additional satellites increase accuracy.

What I’m not sure about is whether 2 satellites to give position, plus 1 to remove clock bias would work, assuming you knew what country you were in?  Or whether 4 is actually the minimum to remove bias?

It seems to me that removing timing error is probably more important than removing a hypothetical location thousands of miles from where you really are.


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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2020, 04:30:15 AM »
GPS needs 4.
It is solving a 4D problem, not a 3D problem. Time is also a variable.

Do I have this right?

Satellites have (multiple) atomic clocks, which are accurate, but receivers don’t.  If we used properly set atomic clocks on receivers we could get locations just on the intersections of spheres of the transmission as follows:

2 satellites in line of sight gives 4 possible locations, 2 above and 2 below the satellites.  So 2 possible locations (assuming you aren’t in space).

3 satellites gives 2 possible locations, 1 above and 1 below.  So really only one possible location.

However, since the receiver clock is not accurate, a 4th satellite is needed to remove clock bias.  And presumably additional satellites increase accuracy.

What I’m not sure about is whether 2 satellites to give position, plus 1 to remove clock bias would work, assuming you knew what country you were in?  Or whether 4 is actually the minimum to remove bias?

It seems to me that removing timing error is probably more important than removing a hypothetical location thousands of miles from where you really are.

Almost.
Assuming you have the atomic clock, then 2 satellites will produce the intersection of 2 spherical shells (i.e. the surface of a sphere).
This gives an entire ring of locations.
You can get an approximate 2D fix based upon you being on the surface of Earth which would give 2 points.
Assuming the satellites are far enough away from directly overhead and you are close to the surface, the position on Earth would be quite accurate.
However the height would be completely unknown. You could be standing on the surface or in a plane at 35 000 ft.

Likewise, if you just had one, you would have the entire spherical shell which could be simplified to a ring on Earth's surface.

But then yes 3 satellites would then give 2 locations, one point below the satellite, one point off in space, allowing a 3D fix.

With the extra satellite for a clock correction, you are better off than the corresponding case without the extra satellite, the easiest way is to treat it like the previous case and think about what happens as the time changes.
With just 1 satellite, you have nothing, you must exist somewhere in space, presumably on Earth.

With 2 satellites, you first treat it as the 2 satellites. This technically gives you a ring, which is simplified to 2 points. But allowing it to span time will give you a kind of bowl shape, which would be a line on Earth (arguable better or just as bad).

But with 3 satellites, you first treat it as 3, giving you a point (as the one off in space is discarded). You then let the clock play out until that point hits Earth. That gives you a 2D fix.
Hypothetically you do still get 2 points, one on each side of Earth. The one on the far side of Earth can be discarded by noting that the satellites wouldn't be visible there.
So it can actually be used to get a 2D fix. But again, that is based upon you being close to Earth's surface and the satellite not being close to overhead.
Your altitude would still be unknown as a small variation in time would move your point off Earth's surface (or below it).

In order to get a 3D fix, without clock bias, you need 4 satellites.

To get a 2D fix, you can think of it as treating the centre of Earth as a transmitter with a known distance to it.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2020, 05:52:50 AM »
Your altitude would still be unknown as a small variation in time would move your point off Earth's surface (or below it).

In order to get a 3D fix, without clock bias, you need 4 satellites.

To get a 2D fix, you can think of it as treating the centre of Earth as a transmitter with a known distance to it.
And to get an accurate altitude (small VDOP - Vertical Dilution of Precision) at least one satellite must have an elevation angle as close to 90°.
The best 4-satellite configuration is 3 spaced at 120° close to the horizon (5° to 15° above) and one directly overhead.

This is why John Davis's non-satellite-based GPS cannot accurately measure altitude.

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2020, 09:19:59 AM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Re: GPS
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2020, 09:35:38 AM »

Almost.
Assuming you have the atomic clock, then 2 satellites will produce the intersection of 2 spherical shells (i.e. the surface of a sphere).
This gives an entire ring of locations.
You can get an approximate 2D fix based upon you being on the surface of Earth which would give 2 points.

Yep, yep.  Should have put a few more seconds thought into it. 

Oops.

And cheers.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2020, 01:09:54 PM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
What does "pseudolite" mean, according to you? Look, I (and I guess everybody in this thread) think that you are trolling. If you are going to pretend to believe the Earth is flat, at least put some effort. Say something like "Well, maybe they are throwing satellites up to the sky every day and making them fall down to Antarctica." or "Maybe they attached the transmitters to some natural celestial body to which the Universal Acceleration applies." or something else that would seem like a plausible response by somebody who believed the Earth was flat. What you are doing right now is very insulting.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2020, 03:32:59 PM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please show your calculations for the Vertical Dilution of Precision (VDOP) for your supposed constellation of pseudolites.

And why haven't there been numerous sitings of these tens of thousands of pseudolites?

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2020, 04:55:40 AM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please show your calculations for the Vertical Dilution of Precision (VDOP) for your supposed constellation of pseudolites.

And why haven't there been numerous sitings of these tens of thousands of pseudolites?
Such arguments probably aren't convincing to people who don't understand advanced mathematics, don't you think?
Could you derive a formula for the distance between two places on Earth with given coordinates, assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere? I think I couldn't do that. How do you even calculate the Euclidean distance between two points in a spherical coordinate system? And then, how do you calculate the distance if you can't go through that sphere, if you have to go on the surface on that sphere? Can you somehow (I suppose using trigonometry) calculate the length of a circle arc if you know the length of the chord and the radius of a circle? How do you prove that formula is correct?
I think that, to Flat-Earthers, such arguments seem to be missing the point.

Nevertheless, maybe this argument will provoke some thinking in Flat-Earthers, how come do GPS devices seem to estimate that the emitters of the GPS signal are 20'000 kilometers away from them? According to the Flat-Earth Theory, that's farther away from us than the stars are, and about as far away from us as the Ice Wall is, right?
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2020, 05:43:09 AM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please show your calculations for the Vertical Dilution of Precision (VDOP) for your supposed constellation of pseudolites.

And why haven't there been numerous sitings of these tens of thousands of pseudolites?
Such arguments probably aren't convincing to people who don't understand advanced mathematics, don't you think?
Could you derive a formula for the distance between two places on Earth with given coordinates, assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere?
You would use the Haversine formula:
Quote
Δφ = φ1 - φ2; Δλ = λ1 - λ2;
a = sin2(Δφ/2) + cos φ1 ⋅ cos φ2 ⋅ sin2(Δλ/2)
c = 2 ⋅ atan2( √a, √(1−a) )
d = Rc

where: φ is latitude, λ is longitude, R is earth’s radius (mean radius = 6,371km) and
d is the distance between the two points at Lat Long φ1, λ1 and φ2, λ2.
note that angles need to be in radians to pass to trig functions!
I didn't derive derive the Haversine formula it's described in Calculate distance, bearing and more between Latitude/Longitude points.
I would expect John Davis to derive the Vertical Dilution of Precision (VDOP) either because there are a number of papers written on it with results that could be applied to his "pseudolites".

Quote from: FlatAssembler
I think I couldn't do that. How do you even calculate the Euclidean distance between two points in a spherical coordinate system?
Find the angle between the radii joining the points to the centre and the distance is the length chord of that angle.
And that's how that Haversine formula starts anyway.

Quote from: FlatAssembler
And then, how do you calculate the distance if you can't go through that sphere, if you have to go on the surface on that sphere? Can you somehow (I suppose using trigonometry) calculate the length of a circle arc if you know the length of the chord and the radius of a circle? How do you prove that formula is correct?
Just as you say and that's what the Haversine formula does. Calculate the length of a circle arc from the angle between the radii is just simple 2-D math.

I don't know about "proving that formula is correct" but you can check it for obvious distances along meridians etc and also compare the answer with "Google Earth". They won't be identical because that allows even for the deviation from an ellipsoid.

Quote from: FlatAssembler
I think that, to Flat-Earthers, such arguments seem to be missing the point.

Nevertheless, maybe this argument will provoke some thinking in Flat-Earthers, how come do GPS devices seem to estimate that the emitters of the GPS signal are 20'000 kilometers away from them? According to the Flat-Earth Theory, that's farther away from us than the stars are, and about as far away from us as the Ice Wall is, right?




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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2020, 06:50:59 AM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.

Pseudolites! who manufactures these flights of fancy you have created? Who launches them? who controls them John?

The problem here is your anti-science ideas are all based on there being a conspiracy of which you have presented no evidence, it's just what you happen to believe.
What we do know is GPS works and that is a fact
We know companies all over the world manufacture components for Satellites
We know companies and organizations who launch satellites
We know companies who are developing GPS systems
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/gps_ocx

Thre are no know companies who design or manufacture components for John's Mythical Pseudolites
There are no known companies who develop any kind of system for John's Mythical Pseudolites
There are no records of any of John's Mythical Pseudolites being launched



Really…..what a laugh!!!

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hoppy

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Re: GPS
« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2020, 07:51:33 AM »


Balloons and psuedolites have around for years.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2020, 09:12:50 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz
Find the angle between the radii joining the points to the centre
Hmmm... It's not at all obvious how to do that. It's probably easier to convert spherical coordinates to Cartesian coordinates and then calculate the chord length by the Pythagorean Theorem. The formula for converting from spherical coordinates to Cartesian coordinates look relatively simple, though I am also not sure if I could derive them. The formulae for converting from Cartesian coordinates to spherical ones are a lot easier to understand.

I haven't studied it, though, that was just a quick example to illustrate my point that arguments that involve relatively complicated mathematics are unlikely to be convincing.
I haven't even heard of the Haversine formula, thanks for informing me about that.
I think that the arguments that the Round Earth Theory correctly predicts the distance to the horizon, or the angle at which the horizon is seen from an airplane at certain height (and thus the time it elapses between the moments people on the ground see the sunset and the moment people in an airplane see the horizon), that those arguments are a lot more likely to be convincing, since they involve a lot less math to understand. Also, the horizon is obviously there, it behaves exactly as we would expect if the Earth is round, and Flat-Earth theories fail miserably to explain what it even is. And there are many arguments about GPS that require little or no math to be understood.
Quote from: rabinoz
I don't know about "proving that formula is correct" but you can check it for obvious distances along meridians etc and also compare the answer with "Google Earth".
Induction is not an acceptable way of reasoning in mathematics.
Quote from: hoppy
Balloons and psuedolites have around for years.
You realize that, every time a GPS device estimates the distance to the emitter of the GPS signal, it estimates the distance to it to be around 20'000 kilometers? And it uses that estimate to estimate your location, in such a way that, if that estimate was slightly wrong, the location it estimates would be very wrong.
Balloons can't go 20'000 kilometers up in the sky. Not even airplanes can. They can only go up to more than 1000 times less height.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2020, 10:16:35 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2020, 10:17:08 AM »
But good job guys arguing against something that I wasn't even claiming for 3 pages now, and doing so against the facts. It's almost like you guys have no idea what you are talking about and are just arguing against me because I'm a flat earther.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 10:19:00 AM by John Davis »
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2020, 11:07:41 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.
Yes, but the computers inside those rovers know they aren't receiving signals from real satellites and are calibrating for that. If you put some of your GPS-capable devices into that area, with a GPS receiver that doesn't know about those pseudolites (and assumes it's receiving signals from the satellites it's programmed to use signals from), it wouldn't give correct (or, most likely, any) results.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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sokarul

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Re: GPS
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2020, 11:14:29 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.

GPS is the US operated global satellite navigation system.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2020, 11:26:52 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.
Yes, but the computers inside those rovers know they aren't receiving signals from real satellites and are calibrating for that. If you put some of your GPS-capable devices into that area, with a GPS receiver that doesn't know about those pseudolites (and assumes it's receiving signals from the satellites it's programmed to use signals from), it wouldn't give correct (or, most likely, any) results.
Nobody has said otherwise.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2020, 11:37:32 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.

Whatever you care to say or think GPS is not ground-based. Go ask the people who make it and launch it. Why do you insist on thinking otherwise?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2020, 11:44:55 AM »
Yeah, you are right. Stanford clearly has a lot of reasons to lie about GPS not requiring satellites. Are you guys almost done attacking your straw men?
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2020, 11:51:19 AM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
https://web.stanford.edu/group/arl/projects/mars-rover-navigation-using-gps-self-calibrating-pseudolite-arrays
Quote
It is possible to use GPS in a local area using small ground-based GPS transmitters called pseudolites (pseudo-satellites).
Wow. I guess GPS isn't one particular system, and I guess it is possible to implement it on the ground.
Yes, but the computers inside those rovers know they aren't receiving signals from real satellites and are calibrating for that. If you put some of your GPS-capable devices into that area, with a GPS receiver that doesn't know about those pseudolites (and assumes it's receiving signals from the satellites it's programmed to use signals from), it wouldn't give correct (or, most likely, any) results.
Nobody has said otherwise.
OK, then, explain how you think the GPS devices you have give correct results, when they are programmed to expect that the GPS signals they receive are from satellites that are 20'000 kilometers up in the sky? Where are those emitters of the GPS signals actually? Up in the sky or somewhere on the ground? If they are somewhere on the ground, how come do they appear to move (Doppler effect, as well as the information they emit about their orbits)? If they are up in the sky, how do they stay up there? Either way, how do they fool the devices into thinking they are more than 20'000 kilometers away (which is incompatible with the Flat-Earth theory, unless you assume they collide with the stars or are situated somewhere behind the Ice Wall)? How do they, in spite of that discrepancy between where GPS devices think they are and where they actually are, make the devices give correct results?
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2020, 11:57:23 AM »
When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?

I simply said GPS does not require satellites. And it doesn't. Presenting straw-men to knock down does nothing but make yourself look even more foolish than you lot already do.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2020, 12:39:02 PM »
Quote from: John Davis
When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?
Well, I am quite sure that's how most people would understand you when you said this.
So, how do those satellites stay up in the sky, above the Sun, the Moon and the stars (when the Flat Earth Theory says stars are 3'000 kilometers up in the sky, and the Sun and the Moon are even lower)? Why aren't they eclipsed by the Sun and the Moon, if not the stars? More importantly, how do they keep flying, when they can't use centrifugal force to keep flying if the Earth is flat?
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2020, 12:41:17 PM »
Quote from: John Davis
When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?
Well, I am quite sure that's how most people would understand you when you said this.
So, how do those satellites stay up in the sky, above the Sun, the Moon and the stars (when the Flat Earth Theory says stars are 3'000 kilometers up in the sky, and the Sun and the Moon are even lower)? Why aren't they eclipsed by the Sun and the Moon, if not the stars? More importantly, how do they keep flying, when they can't use centrifugal force to keep flying if the Earth is flat?
How does asking a question about why he believes GPS requires satellites (when I have shown it doesn't and Stanford agrees with me) have anything to do with making the claim that satellites are not 20,000km in the sky and used by some common GPS devices?

There is no possible way to connect those two without just putting the words in my mouth. It's not my fault round earthers apparently are unable to read.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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rabinoz

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Re: GPS
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2020, 01:13:31 PM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please answer the following direct questions with no wishy-washy claims like "Pseudolites can do this job".
  • Can pseudolites provide adequate vertical precision?
    The Dilution of Precision depends on the angular separation of the transmitters and with all transmitters

  • How many pseudolites would be needed for worldwide coverage?

  • Why are pseudolites not see or detected?

  • Are pseudolites used in the current GNSS, GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (European GNSS) BeiDou (China)?

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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2020, 01:52:25 PM »
When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?

I simply said GPS does not require satellites. And it doesn't. Presenting straw-men to knock down does nothing but make yourself look even more foolish than you lot already do.

What are you trying to prove John? GPS works. It's delivered by a system of orbiting satellites regardless of what you happen to say. I'm not sure why you are even having this discussion.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: GPS
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2020, 03:09:37 PM »
To everyone that thinks you can't have ground based GPS, and that GPS refers to a particular system, what exactly are they claiming to do here?
A very poor article.
They even use things like GPS system, which when expanded would be Global Positioning System System.

They aren't even trying to make a global system, completely ignoring what the G in GPS stands for.

It is so wrong it isn't funny.

But it was probably written for "common folk" that don't understand the difference between GPS, GLONASS and other similar systems used for position determination, and instead just use GPS for it all, probably even Google's wifi based positioning system.

But good job guys arguing against something that I wasn't even claiming for 3 pages now, and doing so against the facts. It's almost like you guys have no idea what you are talking about and are just arguing against me because I'm a flat earther.
No, it is more that you are trying to play semantics (and failing).
GPS does use satellites. But rather than try to address that argument you instead want to discuss hypothetical systems that could work without satellites.

When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?
When you said GPS does not use satellites.
Again, that isn't just saying it doesn't require it. You said DOES NOT USE.
If you want to play a game of semantics, make sure you use the correct wording.

Also, that statement is incorrect as well. Commonly available GPS devices do not talk to satellites. They just listen to them.

As for your claims of attacking a strawman, that sure seems to be what you are doing. Rather than attacking the actual argument discussing the system in use today you repeatedly want to go off to some hypothetical system which doesn't use satellites.

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Username

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Re: GPS
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2020, 04:03:47 PM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please answer the following direct questions with no wishy-washy claims like "Pseudolites can do this job".
  • Can pseudolites provide adequate vertical precision?
    The Dilution of Precision depends on the angular separation of the transmitters and with all transmitters

Yes
Quote
  • How many pseudolites would be needed for worldwide coverage?

Irrelevant.
Quote
  • Why are pseudolites not see or detected?

Irrelevant
Quote
  • Are pseudolites used in the current GNSS, GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (European GNSS) BeiDou (China)?

Irrelevant
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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Username

  • Administrator
  • 17679
  • President of The Flat Earth Society
Re: GPS
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2020, 04:05:38 PM »
When did I say that commonly available GPS devices are not talking to satellites 20,000 km in the sky?

I simply said GPS does not require satellites. And it doesn't. Presenting straw-men to knock down does nothing but make yourself look even more foolish than you lot already do.

What are you trying to prove John? GPS works. It's delivered by a system of orbiting satellites regardless of what you happen to say. I'm not sure why you are even having this discussion.
It is hard to believe that you don't know what I'm trying to argue. I am arguing that GPS does not require satellites. Because it doesn't.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: GPS
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2020, 04:09:08 PM »
Incorrect. Pseudolites can do this job. Other methods can as well.
Please answer the following direct questions with no wishy-washy claims like "Pseudolites can do this job".
  • Can pseudolites provide adequate vertical precision?
    The Dilution of Precision depends on the angular separation of the transmitters and with all transmitters

Yes
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  • How many pseudolites would be needed for worldwide coverage?

Irrelevant.
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  • Why are pseudolites not see or detected?

Irrelevant
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  • Are pseudolites used in the current GNSS, GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia), Galileo (European GNSS) BeiDou (China)?

Irrelevant
Inadequate