GPS

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Bastl

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GPS
« on: December 24, 2019, 04:48:07 AM »
hey Guys
So GPS obviously is working as we all can use it. How does this work on a flat earth?

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Jamie

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Re: GPS
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2019, 06:15:37 AM »
Please use the forum's search function. This question has definitely been asked (and "answered") before.

I'm not even a flattie, but you need to step your game up.
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Re: GPS
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2020, 12:59:40 PM »
 FWIW, my father worked on the original design and implementation of the GPS. From what I remember, he believed the earth was spherical.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2020, 01:28:14 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: GPS
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2020, 01:33:18 PM »
Q&A is not for debate.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2020, 01:35:18 PM »
Q&A is not for debate.
Sorry, I'm not debating. I'm trying to understand the question. I see no reason GPS wouldn't work perfectly well on a flat earth.

Re: GPS
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2020, 08:32:10 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

Re: GPS
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2020, 01:55:48 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
This question applies to both orbiting and geostationary satellites.  Move to different forum?

Re: GPS
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2020, 01:57:59 PM »
Q&A is not for debate.
Sorry, I'm not debating. I'm trying to understand the question. I see no reason GPS wouldn't work perfectly well on a flat earth.
How does a geostationary satellite maintain its position on a flat earth and where can we find the elevation and azimuth for a particular satellite from a particular location?

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Re: GPS
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2020, 10:33:49 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
Why do you think a GPS would require satellites to work?

Re: GPS
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2020, 08:36:46 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
Why do you think a GPS would require satellites to work?
Tell me then how GPS works without satellites?
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2020, 08:22:24 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
Why do you think a GPS would require satellites to work?
Tell me then how GPS works without satellites?
It uses very good clocks. Nothing about GPS necessitates satellites in any way shape or form. All you need is a transmitter that knows where it is. It works without satellites, because satellites are not necessary.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 08:30:21 AM by John Davis »

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2020, 08:38:39 AM »
How does a geostationary satellite maintain its position on a flat earth and where can we find the elevation and azimuth for a particular satellite from a particular location?
GPS satellites are not geostationary.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2020, 10:12:13 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
Because, for example, land-based "satellites" won't be able to tell the altitude you are at. Besides, there would have to be quite a few of those fake satellites to cover the whole surface of the Earth, and I don't see how it can be hidden.
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https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
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Re: GPS
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2020, 10:15:09 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
Because, for example, land-based "satellites" won't be able to tell the altitude you are at. Besides, there would have to be quite a few of those fake satellites to cover the whole surface of the Earth, and I don't see how it can be hidden.
Its odd to me that you think land-based transmitters won't tell you the altitude you are at. Why do you hold this quaint belief? It has nothing to do with the transmitters being in space. It has to do with how many there are.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 10:21:54 AM by John Davis »

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2020, 12:44:01 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
Because, for example, land-based "satellites" won't be able to tell the altitude you are at. Besides, there would have to be quite a few of those fake satellites to cover the whole surface of the Earth, and I don't see how it can be hidden.
Its odd to me that you think land-based transmitters won't tell you the altitude you are at. Why do you hold this quaint belief? It has nothing to do with the transmitters being in space. It has to do with how many there are.
GPS tells the location from the distance to the satellites. If the distance to all the land-based satellites gets longer, how can a GPS possibly tell if it is because it has moved upward or downward? It can't tell that. On the other hand, if the satellites are in space (always above the GPS receiver), distance to all satellites in range getting shorter means it's climbing.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Re: GPS
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2020, 12:55:27 PM »
First off, your presumption seems to think each transmitter is at the same altitude, meaning not only a flat earth but one with no hills or valleys - oh my. Even given this absurdity, you are still wrong. They would still be able to determine the altitude.

Secondly, how can it do that? I don't know. How about you start by measuring the distance to each transmitter...

How exactly do you round earthers think GPS works? Is it just magic to you?


« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 01:03:55 PM by John Davis »

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2020, 01:00:11 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
Because, for example, land-based "satellites" won't be able to tell the altitude you are at. Besides, there would have to be quite a few of those fake satellites to cover the whole surface of the Earth, and I don't see how it can be hidden.
Its odd to me that you think land-based transmitters won't tell you the altitude you are at. Why do you hold this quaint belief? It has nothing to do with the transmitters being in space. It has to do with how many there are.
GPS tells the location from the distance to the satellites. If the distance to all the land-based satellites gets longer, how can a GPS possibly tell if it is because it has moved upward or downward? It can't tell that. On the other hand, if the satellites are in space (always above the GPS receiver), distance to all satellites in range getting shorter means it's climbing.
Actually, all such location services work on the notion of intersecting spheres.  Generally, you need 4 or more spheres (transmitters) to get a decent 3D position, but the more spheres you have, the better.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2020, 01:04:39 PM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
Because, for example, land-based "satellites" won't be able to tell the altitude you are at. Besides, there would have to be quite a few of those fake satellites to cover the whole surface of the Earth, and I don't see how it can be hidden.
Its odd to me that you think land-based transmitters won't tell you the altitude you are at. Why do you hold this quaint belief? It has nothing to do with the transmitters being in space. It has to do with how many there are.
GPS tells the location from the distance to the satellites. If the distance to all the land-based satellites gets longer, how can a GPS possibly tell if it is because it has moved upward or downward? It can't tell that. On the other hand, if the satellites are in space (always above the GPS receiver), distance to all satellites in range getting shorter means it's climbing.
Actually, all such location services work on the notion of intersecting spheres.  Generally, you need 4 or more spheres (transmitters) to get a decent 3D position, but the more spheres you have, the better.
Yes, as Markjo points out the spheres are constructed by way of knowing the transmitter location, an accurate time, and the distance to the receiver.

None of these requirements unfortunately are satellites.

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2020, 01:07:33 PM »
Secondly, how can it do that? I don't know. How about you start by measuring the distance to each transmitter...
You get the distance to the transmitters by knowing the speed of light and using those very accurate clocks to time how long the signal takes to get from the transmitter to the receiver.

But you already know that because it's pretty much the same way that FE GPS (A.K.A.: GSM positioning) works from cell phone towers.  The main difference is that RE GPS assumes that the transmitters are moving in well defined orbits above the earth while FE's land based "GPS" assumes that the transmitters are in known stationary locations.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2020, 01:18:45 PM »
Who mentioned anything about FE GPS. I'm just curious about what would make it exclusive to a round earth. Supposedly that exclusivity is due to satellites. He is pointing out that there are usually two solutions with three transmitters - as you point out this is wrong because the addition of the fourth rules out the extraneous solution. Common sense can usually remove this fourth solution without an additional transmitter (knowledge of whether you are under ground and unable to use gps anyways.)

This is true on a flat earth or a round earth.

I'd like to know how he thinks it works on a round earth though, given his claim that there would be two solutions which would hold for a round earth or flat one.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 01:21:09 PM by John Davis »

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2020, 11:11:03 PM »
Who mentioned anything about FE GPS. I'm just curious about what would make it exclusive to a round earth. Supposedly that exclusivity is due to satellites. He is pointing out that there are usually two solutions with three transmitters - as you point out this is wrong because the addition of the fourth rules out the extraneous solution. Common sense can usually remove this fourth solution without an additional transmitter (knowledge of whether you are under ground and unable to use gps anyways.)

This is true on a flat earth or a round earth.

I'd like to know how he thinks it works on a round earth though, given his claim that there would be two solutions which would hold for a round earth or flat one.
For God's sake, when you have the distance from 3 satellites, there are two solutions: one is down on Earth, below the satellites, the other is up in space, above the satellites. GPS can tell elevation you are at with three satellites because it can safely assume you are below the satellites. If, however, the satellites are actually on the land, it can't assume that, and it cannot tell the elevation. The fact that GPS can accurately tell the elevation with data from three satellites severely discredits the idea that GPS satellites are actually down on Earth.
Besides, how come do the GPS devices that assume the satellites are moving give such accurate results if they aren't actually moving?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 11:19:46 PM by FlatAssembler »
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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markjo

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Re: GPS
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2020, 06:21:38 AM »
Who mentioned anything about FE GPS.
The OP, when they asked how GPS works on a flat earth.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Re: GPS
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2020, 06:30:26 AM »
Who mentioned anything about FE GPS. I'm just curious about what would make it exclusive to a round earth. Supposedly that exclusivity is due to satellites. He is pointing out that there are usually two solutions with three transmitters - as you point out this is wrong because the addition of the fourth rules out the extraneous solution. Common sense can usually remove this fourth solution without an additional transmitter (knowledge of whether you are under ground and unable to use gps anyways.)

This is true on a flat earth or a round earth.

I'd like to know how he thinks it works on a round earth though, given his claim that there would be two solutions which would hold for a round earth or flat one.
For God's sake, when you have the distance from 3 satellites, there are two solutions: one is down on Earth, below the satellites, the other is up in space, above the satellites. GPS can tell elevation you are at with three satellites because it can safely assume you are below the satellites. If, however, the satellites are actually on the land, it can't assume that, and it cannot tell the elevation. The fact that GPS can accurately tell the elevation with data from three satellites severely discredits the idea that GPS satellites are actually down on Earth.
Besides, how come do the GPS devices that assume the satellites are moving give such accurate results if they aren't actually moving?
It's a good thing we don't only have three satellites, or we'd have an inaccurate position (on a round or a flat earth).

Can you back up your wild assertion that only three gps satellites exist? And that on both a round or a flat earth using three satellites does not lead to inaccurate results?


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Timeisup

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Re: GPS
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2020, 07:02:21 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
Why do you think a GPS would require satellites to work?
Tell me then how GPS works without satellites?
It uses very good clocks. Nothing about GPS necessitates satellites in any way shape or form. All you need is a transmitter that knows where it is. It works without satellites because satellites are not necessary.

Wrong.
If we are going to approach this on a scientific basis then lets all stick to the known scientific facts. As of Aug 2019 there were 31 GPS satellites in operational orbit, with a total of 74 having been launched. That is one fact. Another fact is they are in orbit. Another fact is they can provide any user with a pretty accurate position of where they happen to be on the surface of the earth based on the earth being a sphere. They also operate taking relativity into account for the user's location.

I imagine when all those 74 satellites were all blasted off the engineers had a pretty good idea what kind of orbit they were going into, don't you agree John? As is always the case what is it about the functionality of GPS that leads you to believe the world is flat?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Re: GPS
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2020, 08:00:33 AM »
Why do you think GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth?
How do satellites orbit a flat earth? As GPS requires satellites to work.
Why do you think a GPS would require satellites to work?
Tell me then how GPS works without satellites?
It uses very good clocks. Nothing about GPS necessitates satellites in any way shape or form. All you need is a transmitter that knows where it is. It works without satellites because satellites are not necessary.

Wrong.
If we are going to approach this on a scientific basis then lets all stick to the known scientific facts. As of Aug 2019 there were 31 GPS satellites in operational orbit, with a total of 74 having been launched. That is one fact. Another fact is they are in orbit. Another fact is they can provide any user with a pretty accurate position of where they happen to be on the surface of the earth based on the earth being a sphere. They also operate taking relativity into account for the user's location.

I imagine when all those 74 satellites were all blasted off the engineers had a pretty good idea what kind of orbit they were going into, don't you agree John? As is always the case what is it about the functionality of GPS that leads you to believe the world is flat?
What about what I said is wrong?

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2020, 08:12:15 AM »
Who mentioned anything about FE GPS. I'm just curious about what would make it exclusive to a round earth. Supposedly that exclusivity is due to satellites. He is pointing out that there are usually two solutions with three transmitters - as you point out this is wrong because the addition of the fourth rules out the extraneous solution. Common sense can usually remove this fourth solution without an additional transmitter (knowledge of whether you are under ground and unable to use gps anyways.)

This is true on a flat earth or a round earth.

I'd like to know how he thinks it works on a round earth though, given his claim that there would be two solutions which would hold for a round earth or flat one.
For God's sake, when you have the distance from 3 satellites, there are two solutions: one is down on Earth, below the satellites, the other is up in space, above the satellites. GPS can tell elevation you are at with three satellites because it can safely assume you are below the satellites. If, however, the satellites are actually on the land, it can't assume that, and it cannot tell the elevation. The fact that GPS can accurately tell the elevation with data from three satellites severely discredits the idea that GPS satellites are actually down on Earth.
Besides, how come do the GPS devices that assume the satellites are moving give such accurate results if they aren't actually moving?
It's a good thing we don't only have three satellites, or we'd have an inaccurate position (on a round or a flat earth).

Can you back up your wild assertion that only three gps satellites exist? And that on both a round or a flat earth using three satellites does not lead to inaccurate results?
When did I say only three GPS satellites exist? I pointed out to the fact that, if a GPS receives signal from only three satellites, it can determine the elevation with precision of around 20 meters. That's not super-precise, but it's hard to explain if we assume it has to guess between two very different solutions. Honestly, you seem to be trolling.
And that with elevation is not remotely the only problem with the incoherent hypothesis that GPS is land-based. How come do GPS devices, programmed with open-source software to assume the satellites are moving at specific orbits, give remotely correct results if the satellites aren't actually moving? How come do the GPS devices get more correct results if they assume the time on the satellites runs a bit slower than it does on Earth due to relativistic effects of gravity?
The theory that the Earth is round provides us with interesting, useful and easily falsifiable explanations. The incoherent model that the Earth is flat provides us with nonsense technobabble and is struggling to give any explanation for what the theory that the Earth is round gives useful explanations for.
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Re: GPS
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2020, 08:17:07 AM »
I'm asking why GPS would require satellites (and more generally why GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth). So far you haven't given any reason except saying "satellites!"

Giving no coherent reason why GPS would necessary need satellites does not prove your point that satellites are supposedly necessary for GPS to function. Facts matter.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: GPS
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2020, 08:53:44 AM »
I'm asking why GPS would require satellites (and more generally why GPS wouldn't work on a flat earth). So far you haven't given any reason except saying "satellites!"

Giving no coherent reason why GPS would necessary need satellites does not prove your point that satellites are supposedly necessary for GPS to function. Facts matter.
How come do GPS devices, programmed with open-source software to assume the satellites are moving at specific orbits, give remotely correct results if the GPS is land-based and its "satellites" aren't actually moving (as you, as far as I understand you, claim)?
Fan of Stephen Wolfram.
This is my parody of the conspiracy theorists:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71184.0
This is my attempt to refute the Flat-Earth theory:

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Re: GPS
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2020, 09:02:42 AM »
Where did I claim any such thing?