Lets revisit this flight scenario again....

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2019, 04:43:29 PM »
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you are at the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then "keep going on that heading" (i.e., due South) you must turn around so that instead of going north you are going south.
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.

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sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2019, 06:04:49 PM »

No they are not. They are north, east, south, and west, and those are not 2D directions. Following a great circle north stops being north when you pass over the North Pole and then becomes south. Following east at any point other than the equator means turning away from a great circle; the closer to a pole, the tighter the turn.
North,south, east,and west is 2D. Look at a compass rose, it's 2D. Glad we cleared that up.

Quote
Yeah you do when you get the definition wrong. You're just making shit up.

You are clueless.

Quote
Of course it does. It's not magic, it's the definition of the direction. The directions north, east, south, and west are defined by the spots you like to call made up, but which have actual physically distinct characteristics.

Quit making up stuff you want to be true.
Nothing is made up.

Quote
While not properly citing sources, the Wikipedia entry on cardinal directions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction) describes it with reasonable accuracy:
"Thus the bearing of a straight path crossing the North Pole changes abruptly at the Pole from North to South. When travelling East or West, it is only on the Equator that one can keep East or West and be going straight (without the need to steer). Anywhere else, maintaining latitude requires a change in direction, requires steering."

Post a reference that adheres to your definition.

A 2D compass rose.
But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?
I think you forgot what we are talking about?


Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

So
"Fly a plane due South over the South Pole"
then
"keep going on that heading and record the results."

Figure it out yet?

Sokarul

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Run Sandokhan run

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rabinoz

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2019, 06:11:48 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

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Ski

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2019, 08:27:03 PM »
Continuing to fly a heading of 180° after flying over the "southpole" requires a course deviation. Exactly what is so hard to understand about that?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2019, 10:53:27 PM »
To do as you suggest, you would  fly in a  spiral, always correcting to south, Intel you run out of fuel and crash very close to the South Pole. A spiral not being a straight flight.
But then on a flat Earth there is no South pole, you would fly off into the unknown.
Is there an end to South on a flat Earth? As it goes out 360° from north.
With that in mind you can never reach it.
Another thought, after reaching the south, you make 90° turn, and then you are always flying south, around the perimeter, of the flat Earth.
On a globe, what is be on the South Pole, is north.
On a flat Earth, be on the south, is the unknown: and you know how much man loves the unknown, he keep searching it, until it's known.
The unknown doesn't stay that way, for very long.
Give him a mountain, he will clime it.
Give him a sea, he we'll cross it.
Give him the moon, he will reach out to it, and get there.
It is in his nature, to do so.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2019, 05:53:52 AM »
Continuing to fly a heading of 180° after flying over the "southpole" requires a course deviation. Exactly what is so hard to understand about that?
That’s not how the original post was worded.
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2019, 04:43:02 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2019, 04:44:59 PM »
Continuing to fly a heading of 180° after flying over the "southpole" requires a course deviation. Exactly what is so hard to understand about that?

Dunno. Some folks seem to think that compass headings are absolute and not relative.

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rabinoz

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2019, 05:02:19 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2019, 05:25:08 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

*

rabinoz

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2019, 06:22:53 PM »
I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.
And divert attention away from the real purpose of the thread! Good one.

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2019, 07:13:17 PM »
To do as you suggest, you would  fly in a  spiral, always correcting to south, Intel you run out of fuel and crash very close to the South Pole. A spiral not being a straight flight.
But then on a flat Earth there is no South pole, you would fly off into the unknown.
Is there an end to South on a flat Earth? As it goes out 360° from north.
With that in mind you can never reach it.
Another thought, after reaching the south, you make 90° turn, and then you are always flying south, around the perimeter, of the flat Earth.
On a globe, what is be on the South Pole, is north.
On a flat Earth, be on the south, is the unknown: and you know how much man loves the unknown, he keep searching it, until it's known.
The unknown doesn't stay that way, for very long.
Give him a mountain, he will clime it.
Give him a sea, he we'll cross it.
Give him the moon, he will reach out to it, and get there.
It is in his nature, to do so.
It appears once again, that I get  ignored >:(
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

*

sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2019, 07:59:57 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Why did you ignore my post?
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

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Ski

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2019, 10:57:31 PM »
Because you are continually wrong?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2019, 11:21:14 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Why did you ignore my post?

It's unproductive to continue a discussion when I have made my point several times, and you have either failed to read or comprehend what was written, and continue to make up what you wish was true.

Ski gets it.

Rabinoz gets it.

You don't get it.

Ignoring you seemed the kind thing to do.

*

Macarios

  • 2028
Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2019, 04:12:59 AM »
Continuing to fly a heading of 180° after flying over the "southpole" requires a course deviation. Exactly what is so hard to understand about that?
That’s not how the original post was worded.

Why did you ignore my post?

Because you are continually wrong?

Why did you ignore my post?

It's unproductive to continue a discussion when I have made my point several times, and you have either failed to read or comprehend what was written, and continue to make up what you wish was true.

Ski gets it.

Rabinoz gets it.

You don't get it.

Ignoring you seemed the kind thing to do.

What we could ask here is: what are you trying to define as "direction"?
The "line without left or right turns", or a line that "turns to adjust to navigation description"?

The turn left or right to assume the course of 180 degrees I wouldn't consider "the same direction".

After the South pole the direction doesn't change, it only changes the name.
If you keep going your direction will only become renamed from "180 degrees" to "0 degrees".

(If you don't like the word "renamed" use some other word of phrase that you would like to see here.
Something like "becomes described as", or "determined as", ...)

Feel free to adjust the semantics to the situation.

Whatever you name it, "renaming the direction" won't mean its "deviation".
No left or right turn were included in the original question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now:
Where was Sokarul wrong in his post?

I'm asking because the OP was indeed worded differently, namely like this:

If you get on a plane and you pick one direction, lets say South from the tip of South Africa, and fly in that direction without changing course, where do you end up when you get to the edge of your flat earth and then continue to fly in the same direction?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, as you can see earlier in this thread, my answer is "you get teleported to the opposite side of the most common (Rowbotham's) FE map, just like in Pacman, Asteroids, or similar arcade games".
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 09:08:12 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2019, 07:25:35 AM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Why did you ignore my post?

It's unproductive to continue a discussion when I have made my point several times, and you have either failed to read or comprehend what was written, and continue to make up what you wish was true.

Ski gets it.

Rabinoz gets it.

You don't get it.

Ignoring you seemed the kind thing to do.

You had to change the question to be right. Congrats.
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2019, 08:22:37 AM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Hey pedant, if you’re going to pedant, then pedant properly.

The question is about a hypothetical flat earth, which according to most Flat Earthers doesn’t have a South Pole.  South is simply the opposite to North.  There’s no need to turn around, you should be able to fly south until... what?



Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2019, 10:03:25 AM »

What we could ask here is: what are you trying to define as "direction"?


That might be useful if in any of the posts I've made concerning this proposed flight I've talked about or referenced other members using the word "direction."

My first response regarding the flight was to EvolvedMantisShrimp:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

As confirmed in another topic, doing that requires turning around.

To which sokarul disagreed, and to which I replied:


If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you are at the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then "keep going on that heading" (i.e., due South) you must turn around so that instead of going north you are going south.



EvolvedMantisShrimp continued the line of questioning and I responded:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

As confirmed in another topic, doing that requires turning around.

What happens if you don't? If you head to the South Pole on a bearing South and continue on the same heading after passing the South Pole, what happens?

See above. If you "head to the South Pole on a bearing South" (your words, not mine) and "continue on the same heading [ed. I.e., a bearing South] after passing the South Pole" (your words, not mine), then your path takes you south over the Pole, and the instant you have passed the Pole you must turn around to continue on the same heading south.

Seems a reasonably clear explanation.

But EvolvedMantisShrimp was deficient in comrpehending and after a few back and forths couldn't remember or be bothered to read my posts and asked me to repost my answer. Which I did.

Sokarul then went off on a non sequitur tangent about cardinal directions versus magnetic directions. This is the only time at which I used the word "direction" and it was always specifically in reference to "cardinal direction" (north, east, south, west), and never in reference to the direction of flying a plane.

In fact, in that same post in which I school sokarul about what a cardinal direction is, I quote the Wikipedia entry about "Cardinal directions' which adeptly distinguishes between what a change in compass bearing is, and what a change in direction is (requiring steering).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now:
Where was Sokarul's wrong in his post?

Confusing the meanings of "bearing" and "heading" and "cardinal direction" with "direction."

And completely making up his own definition of "cardinal direction."


I'm asking because the OP was indeed worded differently, namely like this:

If you get on a plane and you pick one direction, lets say South from the tip of South Africa, and fly in that direction without changing course, where do you end up when you get to the edge of your flat earth and then continue to fly in the same direction?

Yes, the OP is worded like that. But I never replied to the OP in any of my posts addressing a flight over the South Pole. My initial response regarding the proposed flight was to EvolvedMantisShrimp's proposal to:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

If you read carefully, you will see that I make a distinction between posts that talk about going over the South Pole and continuing on the same heading or bearing (which changes the instant you are over the South Pole), and those that talk about going over the South Pole and continuing along the same great circle (which do not then require a direction change left or right).

Let's see how many members read carefully.

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2019, 10:07:26 AM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Why did you ignore my post?

It's unproductive to continue a discussion when I have made my point several times, and you have either failed to read or comprehend what was written, and continue to make up what you wish was true.

Ski gets it.

Rabinoz gets it.

You don't get it.

Ignoring you seemed the kind thing to do.

You had to change the question to be right. Congrats.

Nope. I answered EvolvedMantisShrimp's question.

See: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=84225.msg2226364#msg2226364

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sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2019, 10:13:27 AM »
What is the heading of an airplane after it crosses the South Pole?
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2019, 10:14:36 AM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Hey pedant, if you’re going to pedant, then pedant properly.

The question is about a hypothetical flat earth, which according to most Flat Earthers doesn’t have a South Pole.  South is simply the opposite to North.  There’s no need to turn around, you should be able to fly south until... what?

The OP may be asking about a hypothetical flat earth, but that's not the question I addressed. I replied to:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

which proposes flying over the South Pole. You may be talking about a flat earth, I'm not.

So double dumbass pedant to you for calling out my pedantry and totally faceplanting.

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sokarul

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2019, 10:40:22 AM »
What is the heading of an airplane after it crosses the South Pole?
Sokarul

ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

Run Sandokhan run

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2019, 10:49:08 AM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Hey pedant, if you’re going to pedant, then pedant properly.

The question is about a hypothetical flat earth, which according to most Flat Earthers doesn’t have a South Pole.  South is simply the opposite to North.  There’s no need to turn around, you should be able to fly south until... what?

The OP may be asking about a hypothetical flat earth, but that's not the question I addressed. I replied to:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

which proposes flying over the South Pole. You may be talking about a flat earth, I'm not.

So double dumbass pedant to you for calling out my pedantry and totally faceplanting.

Terribly sorry.  My mistake.  You are simply derailing the topic then.

Carry on.

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2019, 12:02:38 PM »
Let's reword that slightly:
If you "fly a plane due South over the South Pole" the instant you cross the South Pole you are flying North.
If you then keep going along the great circle through your position and the South Pole) you continue flying north.

Yes. If EvolvedMantisShrimp had posed the statement correctly in that manner, there wouldn't be a need for either the correction or the flurry of misunderstandings and people making stuff up about cardinal directions.
Or you could have simply taken it as it was obviously intended and not made such a song and dance about it - ever thought of that?

Where's the fun in that, grumpy puss?
I'm more interested in evidence than just having fun, nit-picker extraordinaire.

I'm a multi-tasker. I can have fun and be right at the same time.

Hey pedant, if you’re going to pedant, then pedant properly.

The question is about a hypothetical flat earth, which according to most Flat Earthers doesn’t have a South Pole.  South is simply the opposite to North.  There’s no need to turn around, you should be able to fly south until... what?

The OP may be asking about a hypothetical flat earth, but that's not the question I addressed. I replied to:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

which proposes flying over the South Pole. You may be talking about a flat earth, I'm not.

So double dumbass pedant to you for calling out my pedantry and totally faceplanting.

Terribly sorry.  My mistake.  You are simply derailing the topic then.

Carry on.

Nope. Not derailing the topic at all. Replying to another member's suggestion of how to do a test, and that member's suggestion was:

How do you propose we find out?

Do it. Fly a plane due South over the South Pole and keep going on that heading and record the results.

If you want to call out a member for derailing a topic from flat earth to round earth, address EvolvedMantisShrimp, not me.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2019, 12:21:01 PM »
Graduate School level finger pointing.   ;D

Re: Lets revisit this flight scenario again....
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2019, 07:42:53 PM »
To do as you suggest, you would  fly in a  spiral, always correcting to south, Intel you run out of fuel and crash very close to the South Pole. A spiral not being a straight flight.
But then on a flat Earth there is no South pole, you would fly off into the unknown.
Is there an end to South on a flat Earth? As it goes out 360° from north.
With that in mind you can never reach it.
Another thought, after reaching the south, you make 90° turn, and then you are always flying south, around the perimeter, of the flat Earth.
On a globe, what is be on the South Pole, is north.
On a flat Earth, be on the south, is the unknown: and you know how much man loves the unknown, he keep searching it, until it's known.
The unknown doesn't stay that way, for very long.
Give him a mountain, he will clime it.
Give him a sea, he we'll cross it.
Give him the moon, he will reach out to it, and get there.
It is in his nature, to do so.
It appears once again, that I get  ignored >:(
will someone respon  >:(
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.