The Bishop Challenge

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2019, 01:35:19 AM »
So FE asserts that the Moon is just 3000 miles away.  How many ways have been used to actually measure that distance?  Not just claim it, actually measure it?  It is easy to make any one method appear to be right but you can't form a conclusion from that.  If you make the Earth flat then you are introducing an error into your method straight away so you cannot hope to get a right answer. 

Several methods have been used to determine the Moons real distance and all have returned the same figure. But because the figure is one that that FE don't want to accept they will of course dispute it. 

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2019, 02:52:15 AM »
Lets go with 6100 miles.
...
Next I went to mooncalc.org
...

Ok, here we go with the same 6100 miles and the same mooncalc.org.

On Dec 16th, 2019, at 04:28 UTC-4 we had Moon directly over head in Sabana Larga near Las Matas de Farfan in Dominican Republic.
At the same moment in Chetumal, Belize the moon elevation was 78.31 degree.

Now we have right triangle Moon-Sabana-Chetumal with the right angle in Sabana.
Having the angle at Chetumal to be 78.31 gives the angle at Moon of 11.69 degrees.

Distance from Sabana to Chetumal is then:

Method 1:
6100 x tan(11.69) = 1262 miles

Method 2:
67.77 mile/deg x 11.69 degrees = 792 miles

So, which one will it be?

(HINT: Measured distance between Sabana and Chetumal is 1090 miles.)
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2019, 03:07:32 AM »
Sure, we can see if consistent numbers can be made. I've said in the past that I thought the Moon was about 6000 miles high under EAT. Lets go with 6100 miles.

In the video it is said that the two observations were conducted 2352 miles away, between the Bay Area in California and an area near Tampa, Florida. While the Moon was directly overhead of one area (90 degrees) it was at an altitude of 55.4 degrees above the horizon at the other location. 90 degrees - 55.4 degrees = 34.6 degree displacement in the sky between the two areas.

There are 90 degrees from overhead to the horizon, and the Moon travels pretty consistently across the sky as it descends (EAT). 6100 / 90 = 67.77. As the Moon travels away from you, it will descend at one degree for every 67.77 miles it recedes from you.

34.6 degrees x 67.77 miles = 2344.842 miles. Pretty close to the stated distance between those two points.

----

Next I went to mooncalc.org and, using the 'use current date and time function', I found that the Moon's elevation for those locations at the same time, one right after the other. The time was about 12:19 am PST on Dec 16th, 2019.

Near Tampa Florida:
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/27.8697,-82.6385,7/2019.12.16/03:18/1/2
Moon Altitude: 74.56°

Bay Area California:
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/38.1993,-122.2339,8/2019.12.16/00:19/1/2
Moon Altitude: 39.84°

Difference = 34.72 degrees

Once again:

6100 / 90 = 67.77
34.72 x 67.77 = 2352.77 miles.

We see very similar distance figures again, with a difference of less than 8 miles.
Brilliant ;D! You have to drag in a completely unsupported assumption of EAT to make your "model" fit reality.

Maybe you refer us mortals to where this EAT is defined so precisely.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2019, 11:06:39 AM »
Lets go with 6100 miles.
...
Next I went to mooncalc.org
...

Ok, here we go with the same 6100 miles and the same mooncalc.org.

On Dec 16th, 2019, at 04:28 UTC-4 we had Moon directly over head in Sabana Larga near Las Matas de Farfan in Dominican Republic.
At the same moment in Chetumal, Belize the moon elevation was 78.31 degree.

Now we have right triangle Moon-Sabana-Chetumal with the right angle in Sabana.
Having the angle at Chetumal to be 78.31 gives the angle at Moon of 11.69 degrees.

Distance from Sabana to Chetumal is then:

Method 1:
6100 x tan(11.69) = 1262 miles

Method 2:
67.77 mile/deg x 11.69 degrees = 792 miles

So, which one will it be?

(HINT: Measured distance between Sabana and Chetumal is 1090 miles.)

I got more like a 15 degree displacement when I tried it for that time.

Sabana Larga (4:28 UTC-4)
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.6433,-70.5947,12/2019.12.16/04:28/1/2
88.99°

Chetumal (3:28 UTC-5) -- Chetumal is an hour behind Dominican Republic
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.5083,-88.3328,10/2019.12.16/03:28/1/2
73.88°

88.99° - 73.88° = 15.11 degree displacement

15.11 x 67.77 miles per degree (from my previous message) = 1024.0047 miles

Pretty close to your stated 1090 miles.

Brilliant ;D! You have to drag in a completely unsupported assumption of EAT to make your "model" fit reality.

Maybe you refer us mortals to where this EAT is defined so precisely.

The evidence for EA is on the EA page.

Do you recall that you have already admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed in the equations and that the distances were unable to be justified without assuming a RE?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 12:08:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2019, 11:13:02 AM »
Lets go with 6100 miles.
...
Next I went to mooncalc.org
...

Ok, here we go with the same 6100 miles and the same mooncalc.org.

On Dec 16th, 2019, at 04:28 UTC-4 we had Moon directly over head in Sabana Larga near Las Matas de Farfan in Dominican Republic.
At the same moment in Chetumal, Belize the moon elevation was 78.31 degree.

Now we have right triangle Moon-Sabana-Chetumal with the right angle in Sabana.
Having the angle at Chetumal to be 78.31 gives the angle at Moon of 11.69 degrees.

Distance from Sabana to Chetumal is then:

Method 1:
6100 x tan(11.69) = 1262 miles

Method 2:
67.77 mile/deg x 11.69 degrees = 792 miles

So, which one will it be?

(HINT: Measured distance between Sabana and Chetumal is 1090 miles.)

I got more like a 15 degree displacement when I tried it for that time.

Sabana Larga (4:28 UTC-4)
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.6453,-70.5484,12/2019.12.16/04:28/1/2
88.95°

Chetumal (3:28 UTC-5) -- Chetumal is an hour behind Dominican Republic
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.5141,-88.3095,10/2019.12.16/03:28/1/2
73.90°

= 15.05 x 67.77

= 1019.9385 miles

Pretty close to your stated 1090 miles.

Brilliant ;D! You have to drag in a completely unsupported assumption of EAT to make your "model" fit reality.

Maybe you refer us mortals to where this EAT is defined so precisely.

The evidence for EA is on the EA page.

Do you recall that you have already admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed in the equations and that the distances were unable to be justified without assuming a RE?

Give an example of an FE equation that doesn't make the same assumption.
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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JackBlack

  • 21709
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2019, 12:00:47 PM »
The evidence for EA is on the EA page.
Care to explain how it works to produce the results expected for a RE?

Do you recall that you have already admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed in the equations and that the distances were unable to be justified without assuming a RE?
No, it is based upon the conclusion of a RE and a distant moon.
The only "assumption" required is the isotropy of the universe.

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Username

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2019, 12:13:50 PM »
You've really shaken the bee's nest on this one Tom. Kudos on putting these globularists in their place; they can't even fathom a basic defense for RE astrology.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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sokarul

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2019, 12:32:09 PM »
Lets go with 6100 miles.
...
Next I went to mooncalc.org
...

Ok, here we go with the same 6100 miles and the same mooncalc.org.

On Dec 16th, 2019, at 04:28 UTC-4 we had Moon directly over head in Sabana Larga near Las Matas de Farfan in Dominican Republic.
At the same moment in Chetumal, Belize the moon elevation was 78.31 degree.

Now we have right triangle Moon-Sabana-Chetumal with the right angle in Sabana.
Having the angle at Chetumal to be 78.31 gives the angle at Moon of 11.69 degrees.

Distance from Sabana to Chetumal is then:

Method 1:
6100 x tan(11.69) = 1262 miles

Method 2:
67.77 mile/deg x 11.69 degrees = 792 miles

So, which one will it be?

(HINT: Measured distance between Sabana and Chetumal is 1090 miles.)

I got more like a 15 degree displacement when I tried it for that time.

Sabana Larga (4:28 UTC-4)
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.6433,-70.5947,12/2019.12.16/04:28/1/2
88.99°

Chetumal (3:28 UTC-5) -- Chetumal is an hour behind Dominican Republic
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.5083,-88.3328,10/2019.12.16/03:28/1/2
73.88°

88.99° - 73.88° = 15.11 degree displacement

15.11 x 67.77 miles per degree (from my previous message) = 1024.0047 miles

Pretty close to your stated 1090 miles.

Brilliant ;D! You have to drag in a completely unsupported assumption of EAT to make your "model" fit reality.

Maybe you refer us mortals to where this EAT is defined so precisely.

The evidence for EA is on the EA page.

Do you recall that you have already admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed in the equations and that the distances were unable to be justified without assuming a RE?

That puts the moon at 3340 miles away.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2019, 12:33:31 PM »
Quote
they can't even fathom a basic defense for RE astrology

I am certainly not going to defend astrology. I think that is a load of rubbish as well.

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2019, 12:44:43 PM »
You've really shaken the bee's nest on this one Tom. Kudos on putting these globularists in their place; they can't even fathom a basic defense for RE astrology.

If you mean unable to answer straight questions, provide any factual evidence, inability to do basic maths, maths copied from an RE hypothesis no less, and quoting a WIKI that is not even consistent to itself...

Yup he sure has got us on the ropes.

You're a Gemini right?
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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Username

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2019, 01:25:45 PM »
As others have pointed out, I mistyped astronomy. Apologies. Never the less, you have failed to account for even one reason RE astronomy explains something better than FE astronomy. This, with the entire world and 1000s of years of round earth research on your side.

I can see why you'd resort to attacking an obvious typo; you have no other basis.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2019, 01:31:27 PM »
As others have pointed out, I mistyped astronomy. Apologies. Never the less, you have failed to account for even one reason RE astronomy explains something better than FE astronomy. This, with the entire world and 1000s of years of round earth research on your side.

I can see why you'd resort to attacking an obvious typo; you have no other basis.

Couldn't resist 😉

Topics got a bit dispersed, and jumped about a bit, but have made a few points to Tom regarding his stance on Astronomy being a pseudo science, to which he wont respond.
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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Yes

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2019, 01:35:20 PM »
Never the less
The REAL John Davis is a poet and would know that "nevertheless" is a single word.  Release him!

The rule will be that when you change topics,
you lose.  ;)
The topic has already been changed so many times that this no longer applies, right?
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBCode and smileys may be used in your signature.

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Username

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Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2019, 01:38:46 PM »
Never the less
The REAL John Davis is a poet and would know that "nevertheless" is a single word.  Release him!

The rule will be that when you change topics,
you lose.  ;)
The topic has already been changed so many times that this no longer applies, right?
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=never+the+less&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BNever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0#t4%3B%2Cnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BNever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0

The truth of the matter is the astronomer has as much idea of the distance to his studied objects as does a mortician who has never seen a dead man.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2019, 01:49:28 PM »
Never the less
The REAL John Davis is a poet and would know that "nevertheless" is a single word.  Release him!

The rule will be that when you change topics,
you lose.  ;)
The topic has already been changed so many times that this no longer applies, right?
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=never+the+less&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BNever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0#t4%3B%2Cnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bnever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BNever%20the%20less%3B%2Cc0

The truth of the matter is the astronomer has as much idea of the distance to his studied objects as does a mortician who has never seen a dead man.

Citation needed
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2019, 02:07:50 PM »
I would like to know why TomB thinks its rational to use the east-west map.

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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2019, 02:15:51 PM »
Brilliant ;D! You have to drag in a completely unsupported assumption of EAT to make your "model" fit reality.

Maybe you refer us mortals to where this EAT is defined so precisely.

The evidence for EA is on the EA page.
You claim that "the evidence for EA is on the EA page" but I've read that and can find nothing that I would call evidence, nothing!
Here are the headings on that page. Would you please point out where this evidence is to be found:
Quote from: TFES Wiki by Tom Bishop
Electromagnetic Acceleration
The theory of the Electromagnetic Accelerator (EA) states that there is a mechanism to the universe that pulls, pushes, or deflects light upwards. All light curves upwards over very long distances. The Electromagnetic Accelerator has been adopted as a modern alternative to the perspective theory proposed in Earth Not a Globe.

Mechanism
One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence. Get into a car and attempt to drive in a perfectly straight line down a highway without turning the steering wheel left or right. It is a near impossible thing to do. The car is affected by the slope and texture of the terrain, alignment of your wheels, the wind, &c. An apparently straight heading turns into a curved one. When it comes to bullets, airplanes, et all, it is expected that bodies never realistically travel straightly. Straight line trajectories rarely, if ever, occur in nature.

While the mechanism which affects light over long distances is not known, the cosmological theme of upwards acceleration fits in with this Flat Earth model.

Approximation

Articles of Interest
Simple saying "One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence" is NOT evidence!

And neither is "While the mechanism which affects light over long distances is not known, the cosmological theme of upwards acceleration fits in with this Flat Earth model."
That is simply saying that the EA assumption "fits in with this Flat Earth model".

Nothing in "Approximation" is evidence.

Then nothing in your "Articles of Interest" is relevant to the natural world - they are both very artificial situations involving complex equipment. You did note this at the end of the first article.
Quote
Ingenious, but not new?
Jérôme Kasparian of the University of Geneva in Switzerland, who was not involved in the latest work, is enthusiastic, explaining that the two groups have “elaborated a general framework to describe and therefore predict” large-angle bending of light. However, Michael Berry of Bristol University in the UK, is less so. He believes that the authors do not make it clear that in their experiments they are not bending light rays themselves but the rays’ envelopes, or “caustics”. “The technical details in these papers are ingenious and interesting to specialists, and I hope the renewed emphasis will lead to applications,” he says. “But while the papers are technically interesting, they are unsurprising because they contain no fundamental new idea.”
There's nothing there to support your huge "bending of light" and nothing to support magnetism bending light either!

In other words, you have done nothing than create an unsupported hypothesis that explains observations based on the assumption of a flat Earth.

Talk about "Double Standards"!

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Do you recall that you have already admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed in the equations and that the distances were unable to be justified without assuming a RE?
Not quite!
Your "admitted that the round earth assumption was assumed" is making it look like some great concession but it certainly is not.

Astronomy on the Globe is, of course, based on the Earth being close to spherical.
But that spherical shape has been the accepted shape for at least 2300 years, initially with little evidence.
That initial evidence certainly showed that without the assumptions you are now making a spherical shape is far more likely.

Observational astronomy since that has been ultimately based little more than the "assumption" that light (and all other EM radiation) travels in straight in a homogenous medium. It was realised as early as 100 AD that the atmosphere did cause light to bend very slightly. How slightly is shown in here: Atmospheric Refraction by David Basey
Quote from: A. I. Mahan
Astronomical Refraction–Some History and Theories
Abstract
Astronomical refraction has had a long and fascinating history. Cleomedes (100 A.D.) and Ptolemy (200 A.D.) were aware of its existence and understood in a qualitative way some of its properties. Alhazen (1100 A.D.) quite correctly suggested that the flattening of the sun’s disk near the horizon was due to astronomical refraction. Tycho Brahe in 1587, however, was the first to make direct measurements of the magnitude of the refraction. The first theory of astronomical refraction based on Snell’s law was that of Cassini, who in 1656 looked upon the earth’s atmosphere as being of constant refractive index up to its upper limit at which all the refraction took place.
And, as noted, Tycho Brahe "was the first to make direct measurements of the magnitude of the refraction".

Since that time refraction in air and other materials has been extensively studied.

The is no evidence of any medium between here and the sun or moon that could cause any "bending of light" of the magnitudes you are claiming.

The refractive index of air at sea-level is about 1.00029 and it approaches 1.00000 (the refractive index of a vacuum) comparatively rapidly.
This is based on extensive studies of the properties of the atmosphere (especially pressure, density and temperature) up to around 80,000 metres.
By this altitude, the pressure and density have fallen to typically 0.303 Pa and 5.64 x 10-06 kg/m3.
There is no evidence from sounding rocket measurements, etc, that the density does other than keep falling from that altitude.

So, where is there any evidence of this Electromagnetic Acceleration?

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17933
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2019, 02:24:50 PM »
Simple saying "One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence" is NOT evidence!

It seems that you should keep reading.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
Moon Tilt Illusion

The Electromagnetic Accelerator is able to make unique predictions and predict phenomena that the Round Earth Theory does not. If the Sun is illuminating the Moon under straight line geometry, such as in RET, then it would be expected that the illuminated portion of the Moon will always point at the Sun, much like how when shining a flashlight at a ball the illuminated portion of the ball will always appear to point at the flashlight to observers positioned around the ball. It is natural and expected that the illuminated portion of a body will appear to point at its light source. Because the image of the Moon's nearside face is flipped to observers due to Electromagnetic Acceleration, however, the illuminated portion of the Moon will often be seen to point away from the Sun.

See the Moon Tilt Illusion

Celestial Sphere

Electromagnetic Acceleration predicts that our observations would appear as if we were inside of a dome. And indeed, this is what we experience. Straight line geometry stops working in the distance. When looking out over large distances it appears as if we are on the inside of a planetarium where straight lines become curved on a dome surface. Astronomers acknowledge this effect and attribute the phenomena to the celestial sphere, which assumes that our celestial observations are projected onto a sphere around the observer.

See the Celestial Sphere

See Also
High Altitude Horizon Dip
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 02:26:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2019, 02:25:53 PM »
You've really shaken the bee's nest on this one Tom. Kudos on putting these globularists in their place;
You're jesting again!
How is Tom's "Electromagnetic Acceleration Theory Hypothesis" (AKA Tom's Bendy Light) going to put anyone in their place, other than possibly Tome Bishop himself?

Quote from: John Davis
they can't even fathom a basic defense for RE astrology ::).
Why should anyone "fathom a basic defense for RE astrology"

I couldn't care less about astrology in any shape or form.

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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2019, 03:05:10 PM »
I got more like a 15 degree displacement when I tried it for that time.

Sabana Larga (4:28 UTC-4)
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.6433,-70.5947,12/2019.12.16/04:28/1/2
88.99°

Chetumal (3:28 UTC-5) -- Chetumal is an hour behind Dominican Republic
https://www.mooncalc.org/#/18.5083,-88.3328,10/2019.12.16/03:28/1/2
73.88°

88.99° - 73.88° = 15.11 degree displacement

15.11 x 67.77 miles per degree (from my previous message) = 1024.0047 miles

Pretty close to your stated 1090 miles.

We have two options:
First, light goes in straight lines, plus or minus couple of arc minutes.
Second, light bends much more to accomodate moonset.

First case, those 15 degrees and 6100 miles give this:



Second case, constant apparent angular speed would require
tangent function for linear speed of the Moon to follow light bending,
which would:
a) ruin the linearity of 67.77 miles per degree
b) give inconsistent Moon movement for multiple simultaneos observers.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2019, 03:20:48 PM »
Simple saying "One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence" is NOT evidence!

It seems that you should keep reading.
I did but none of that is evidence! It's no more than claiming that your Electromagnetic_Acceleration Hypothesis explains observations that fit with the Globe.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
Moon Tilt Illusion

The Electromagnetic Accelerator is able to make unique predictions and predict phenomena that the Round Earth Theory does not.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Because the image of the Moon's nearside face is flipped to observers due to Electromagnetic Acceleration, however, the illuminated portion of the Moon will often be seen to point away from the Sun.

See the Moon Tilt Illusion
Please be accurate and say, "the illuminated portion of the Moon will often seem to be seen to point away from the Sun".

The Moon Tilt Illusion is an intriguing illusion but it is simply an illusion based on viewing directions and perspective.
See The Moon Tilt & Terminator Illusions for a forum discussion on the Moon Tilt Illusion.
Or The Moon Tilt Illusion by Andrea K. Myers-Beaghton and Alan L. Myers for a more analytical treatment.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote
Celestial Sphere

Electromagnetic Acceleration predicts that our observations would appear as if we were inside of a dome. And indeed, this is what we experience. Straight line geometry stops working in the distance. When looking out over large distances it appears as if we are on the inside of a planetarium where straight lines become curved on a dome surface. Astronomers acknowledge this effect and attribute the phenomena to the celestial sphere, which assumes that our celestial observations are projected onto a sphere around the observer.

See the Celestial Sphere
But that is not evidence in favour of your Electromagnetic Acceleration.
"Straight line geometry" DOES NOT "stop working in the distance" though light can be bent very slightly by strong gravitational fields.

And in "Astronomers acknowledge this effect", "this effect" is nothing more than our inability to perceive astronomical distances so they all seem "a great distance away".

 The celestial objects do appear as though on a celestial sphere simply because we have no way to perceive astronomical distances

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote
See Also
High Altitude Horizon Dip
But that is, again, no evidence that EAT is correct. It is still nothing more than a hypothesis with no explainable mechanism that assumes a flat Earth.

It might be different if you could even show a plausible refractive index profile that might cause it but you have never even attempted to do that.

It is just an approximate equation that (apparently) happens to make observations on your flat-Earth fit those observed on the Globe.

An equation can be fitted to nearly anything but it is meaningless unless based on some underlying mechanism.

If you could come up with a comparatively simple equation based on exhaustive experimental evidence it might legitimately be called a "Law".
Such Laws are Newton's Laws of Motion, Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation, Coulomb's Law of the various Gas Laws.

Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2019, 03:30:17 PM »
Quote
Never the less, you have failed to account for even one reason RE astronomy explains something better than FE astronomy

That's one way to think of it John.  I could equally say that you just refuse to accept the RE astronomy measurements of basic figures like the distance of the Moon, Sun etc because you believe the Earth is flat.  So you won't accept the laser and radar based measurements of the distance to the Moon and Venus which have been carried out many times over many years to a high level of precision.  That is not what I would call 'failed to account' but I'm sure you will have your own ways and means of declaring those measurements to be invalid for whatever reason.

Its not that RE Astronomy can't account for it, it's more a case of you won't accept the RE account and never will so the discussion might as well stop there.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:41:41 PM by Solarwind »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17933
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2019, 03:32:48 PM »
Simple saying "One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence" is NOT evidence!

It seems that you should keep reading.
I did but none of that is evidence! It's no more than claiming that your Electromagnetic_Acceleration Hypothesis explains observations that fit with the Globe.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
Moon Tilt Illusion

The Electromagnetic Accelerator is able to make unique predictions and predict phenomena that the Round Earth Theory does not.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Because the image of the Moon's nearside face is flipped to observers due to Electromagnetic Acceleration, however, the illuminated portion of the Moon will often be seen to point away from the Sun.

See the Moon Tilt Illusion
Please be accurate and say, "the illuminated portion of the Moon will often seem to be seen to point away from the Sun".

The Moon Tilt Illusion is an intriguing illusion but it is simply an illusion based on viewing directions and perspective.
See The Moon Tilt & Terminator Illusions for a forum discussion on the Moon Tilt Illusion.
Or The Moon Tilt Illusion by Andrea K. Myers-Beaghton and Alan L. Myers for a more analytical treatment.

Look at what your source Professor Myers says in the PDF that you linked:

"Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere."



"The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere."

That doesn't sound like straight line geometry to me.

Per his predictive equations, Professor Myers explains that the celestial sphere is used as an axiom in the work.

  “ Our aim is to derive an equation for the magnitude of the moon tilt illusion that is straightforward to apply to all configurations of sun and moon in the sky. The viewer’s expectation for the direction of incoming light is modeled using vector geometry, which is appropriate for treating 3-D straight lines such as the sun-moon light ray. Analyzing an illusion may seem trivial but the explanation of the moon tilt illusion requires knowledge of the perspective projection basis of human vision, vector algebra, and geometrical concepts such as orthographic projections, the celestial sphere, and geodesics. ”

According to Professor Myers, once we consider geometrical concepts such as the celestial sphere, where straight lines become curved, we can explain the Moon Tilt Illusion.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:55:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17933
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2019, 03:42:16 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz
But that is not evidence in favour of your Electromagnetic Acceleration.
"Straight line geometry" DOES NOT "stop working in the distance" though light can be bent very slightly by strong gravitational fields.

Really? Explain the one about the sun charts at the end.

Quote
Over the course of the year the path of the Sun is seen to curve upon a dome, which can be seen in sun charts. Penn State University provides an overview of 'sky domes', projections, and polar sun charts:

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/eme810/node/534 (Archive)

2.13 Sky Dome and Projections

Sun Charts: Projections of Solar Events and Shadowing from the Sky Dome

  “ The emphasis of this lesson is the Sun Chart tool (or Sun Path). These flat diagrams are found in many solar design tools, but may look completely foreign to the new student in solar energy. How do we interpret the arcs and points plotted on a sun chart? Why do we have two different types of plots (one looks like a rectangle, and one looks like a circle)? Why do some plots go from 0-360°, while others go from -180° to +180°?

If we want to visually convert our observations of the sky-dome onto a two-dimensional medium, we can either use an orthographic projection or a spherical projection on a polar chart. These projections are useful for calculating established times of solar availability or shadowing for a given point of solar collection. ...The Sky Dome refers to the sum of the components for the entire sky from horizon to zenith, and in all azimuthal directions.

~

Projections

The sky dome can be projected onto flat surfaces for analysis of shading and sky component behavior.



Figure 2.15: The sky dome as projected to the right in orthographic form, and as projected upward in polar form.

~

Polar Projection: takes the sky dome and projects altitude and azimuth values down onto a circular plane. However, in the polar projection, the arc for December 21 is at the top while the arc for June 21 is at the bottom. This happens because we are effectively lying on the ground with our heads facing south, and holding that large piece of paper straight up to the sky.



Figure 2.17: Polar Projection ”

The above is a polar sun chart, showing how the sun would move as if we were laying on the ground with our head towards the south. If one were to hold a large piece of paper straight up into the air, over the course of the year the sun would shine through the paper and trace arcs across the sky. Despite the sun's ecliptic being a plane which cuts through the earth, the path of the sun is seen to curve in the sky.

At the bottom of the page we see that the polar projection sun chart was generated with the University of Oregon's Polar Sun Chart Program. Using this tool to create a polar sun chart for the opposite Southern Hemisphere version of the above polar sun chart, for Latitude -40.79 and Longitude -77.85, we see the following:



Notice that the day of December 21st is convex in the Northern Hemisphere and concave in the Southern Hemisphere. The shape of the curve for the same day is seen to be convex or concave for different observers simultaneously, truly as if each observer had his or her own personal planitarium-like "dome" of vision.

How does a spinning ball earth and straight line geometry make these sun path patterns that are concave and convex for different observers simultaneously? Explain.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:48:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2019, 03:51:48 PM »
This 'Moon tilt illusion' which is also equally valid for the constellations and all other celestial bodies as well is simply caused by the effect of the Earths rotation and polar tilt.  Why do so many people on here try to overcomplicate things by going on about electromagnetic accelerators and whatever else? 

If you have an alt azimuth mounted telescope for LX imaging purposes you can get field de-rotators to correct the effect.

https://www.telescope.com/Meade-Imaging-Field-De-Rotator-1220/p/113810.uts

Note the bit of this page where it explains
Quote
If you want to do long exposure photo or CCD imaging (over 5 minutes) in altazimuth mode without a wedge, you can correct for field rotation (which results from the scope not rotating on the same axis that the earth does) with the #1220 Field De-Rotator.

Essential if you are going to image DSOs because otherwise imaging a target on the celestial equator will end up looking as if you were aimed at the celestial pole! You don't need a field rotator with an equatorially mounted telescope because the telescope itself is tilted in line with the Earths polar axis and so that naturally cancels out the tilt.  Does it occur to you that if your electromagnetic accelerator idea was right then equatorially mounted telescopes on a flat Earth wouldn't work.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 04:04:56 PM by Solarwind »

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2019, 03:54:39 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz
But that is not evidence in favour of your Electromagnetic Acceleration.
"Straight line geometry" DOES NOT "stop working in the distance" though light can be bent very slightly by strong gravitational fields.

Really? Explain the one about the sun charts at the end.

Quote
Over the course of the year the path of the Sun is seen to curve upon a dome, which can be seen in sun charts. Penn State University provides an overview of 'sky domes', projections, and polar sun charts:

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/eme810/node/534 (Archive)

2.13 Sky Dome and Projections

Sun Charts: Projections of Solar Events and Shadowing from the Sky Dome

  “ The emphasis of this lesson is the Sun Chart tool (or Sun Path). These flat diagrams are found in many solar design tools, but may look completely foreign to the new student in solar energy. How do we interpret the arcs and points plotted on a sun chart? Why do we have two different types of plots (one looks like a rectangle, and one looks like a circle)? Why do some plots go from 0-360°, while others go from -180° to +180°?

If we want to visually convert our observations of the sky-dome onto a two-dimensional medium, we can either use an orthographic projection or a spherical projection on a polar chart. These projections are useful for calculating established times of solar availability or shadowing for a given point of solar collection. ...The Sky Dome refers to the sum of the components for the entire sky from horizon to zenith, and in all azimuthal directions.

~

Projections

The sky dome can be projected onto flat surfaces for analysis of shading and sky component behavior.



Figure 2.15: The sky dome as projected to the right in orthographic form, and as projected upward in polar form.

~

Polar Projection: takes the sky dome and projects altitude and azimuth values down onto a circular plane. However, in the polar projection, the arc for December 21 is at the top while the arc for June 21 is at the bottom. This happens because we are effectively lying on the ground with our heads facing south, and holding that large piece of paper straight up to the sky.



Figure 2.17: Polar Projection ”

The above is a polar sun chart, showing how the sun would move as if we were laying on the ground with our head towards the south. If one were to hold a large piece of paper straight up into the air, over the course of the year the sun would shine through the paper and trace arcs across the sky. Despite the sun's ecliptic being a plane which cuts through the earth, the path of the sun is seen to curve in the sky.

At the bottom of the page we see that the polar projection sun chart was generated with the University of Oregon's Polar Sun Chart Program. Using this tool to create a polar sun chart for the opposite Southern Hemisphere version of the above polar sun chart, for Latitude -40.79 and Longitude -77.85, we see the following:



Notice that the day of December 21st is convex in the Northern Hemisphere and concave in the Southern Hemisphere. The shape of the curve for the same day is seen to be convex or concave for different observers simultaneously, truly as if each observer had his or her own personal planitarium-like "dome" of vision.

How does a spinning ball earth and straight line geometry make these sun path patterns that are concave and convex for different observers simultaneously? Explain.

Cherry picking Tom

Do you have an FE source for any of your posts, or do you believe the earth is a sphere, rotating on a tilted axis, around a star around 93 million miles away?

Should really check your sources.
You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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mak3m

  • 737
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2019, 03:59:24 PM »
Simple saying "One may point out that it would be quite unreasonable to assert that a particle or wave in motion would travel forever through the universe in a perfectly straight line, unperturbed by any of the variety of forces or phenomena which fills existence" is NOT evidence!

It seems that you should keep reading.
I did but none of that is evidence! It's no more than claiming that your Electromagnetic_Acceleration Hypothesis explains observations that fit with the Globe.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
Moon Tilt Illusion

The Electromagnetic Accelerator is able to make unique predictions and predict phenomena that the Round Earth Theory does not.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Because the image of the Moon's nearside face is flipped to observers due to Electromagnetic Acceleration, however, the illuminated portion of the Moon will often be seen to point away from the Sun.

See the Moon Tilt Illusion
Please be accurate and say, "the illuminated portion of the Moon will often seem to be seen to point away from the Sun".

The Moon Tilt Illusion is an intriguing illusion but it is simply an illusion based on viewing directions and perspective.
See The Moon Tilt & Terminator Illusions for a forum discussion on the Moon Tilt Illusion.
Or The Moon Tilt Illusion by Andrea K. Myers-Beaghton and Alan L. Myers for a more analytical treatment.

Look at what your source Professor Myers says in the PDF that you linked:

"Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere."



"The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere."

That doesn't sound like straight line geometry to me.

Per his predictive equations, Professor Myers explains that the celestial sphere is used as an axiom in the work.

  “ Our aim is to derive an equation for the magnitude of the moon tilt illusion that is straightforward to apply to all configurations of sun and moon in the sky. The viewer’s expectation for the direction of incoming light is modeled using vector geometry, which is appropriate for treating 3-D straight lines such as the sun-moon light ray. Analyzing an illusion may seem trivial but the explanation of the moon tilt illusion requires knowledge of the perspective projection basis of human vision, vector algebra, and geometrical concepts such as orthographic projections, the celestial sphere, and geodesics. ”

According to Professor Myers we must consider geometrical concepts such as the celestial sphere, where straight lines become curved, to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion.

Ok let's assume you have a hypothesis.

Run the numbers through your approximation, make a prediction, then we can make an observation.

I mean that sounds a lot like astronomy but hey.

When inputting the numbers, can you take us through parsifals equation, how you calculated c and the math behind the bishop constant and justifications for any assumptions made.

You have to learn to reply without quoting a long previous answer.

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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2019, 05:43:43 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz
But that is not evidence in favour of your Electromagnetic Acceleration.
"Straight line geometry" DOES NOT "stop working in the distance" though light can be bent very slightly by strong gravitational fields.

Really? Explain the one about the sun charts at the end.
Not before you explain in detail how your EAT equation explains it.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
How does a spinning ball earth and straight line geometry make these sun path patterns that are concave and convex for different observers simultaneously? Explain.
I thought that's what the reference you quoted did. Everything there is based on a spherical Earth and straight line geometry.
It need make no assumption about a "spinning ball ". It works just as well for the stationary Earth of Ptolemy or Johannes de Sacrobosco!

But you omitted this introductory bit:
Quote
2.13 Sky Dome and Projections
Sun Charts: Projections of Solar Events and Shadowing from the Sky Dome

What are Sun Charts?

If we want to visually convert our observations of the sky-dome onto a two-dimensional medium, we can either use an orthographic projection or a spherical projection on a polar chart. These projections are useful for calculating established times of solar availability or shadowing for a given point of solar collection.

The Sun Path describes the arc of the sun across the sky in relation to an earth-bound observer at a given latitude and time.


Figure 2.14: We display the path of the Sun across two days for the Northern Hemisphere. One day in
summer and one in winter, where the trail of the beam has been projected onto the sky dome using
angular coordinates of solar azimuth and solar altitude.

Credit: Jeffrey R. S. Brownson
.
It should be clear enough once you realise that the Sun appears to circle about an axis normal to those circles representing the Sun's paths.
Though it should be pointed out that the axis rotation is really through the centre Earth some 6370 miles below.
A diagram like this is only meaningful if the distance to the Sun is extremely large compared to the size of the Earth.

I fail to see any problem with it.

But this has been part of Cosmology from even centuries before the Globe.
Quote
Thales' model of the Universe[/url]
The early Greek philosopher Thales, in about 600 BC, proposed a model to explain the daily motion of the stars.
Thales and his student and successor, Anaximander, both believed that the Earth was flat.

Note that in all these early Cosmologies, even the flat-Earth ones, the celestial sphere surrounds the and the Sun, Moon and stars do not circle above the earth as you claim!

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17933
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2019, 05:54:34 PM »
You have failed to explain why the sun is curving concavely for one observer and convexly for the other observer simultaneously.

Look at a distant streetlight and spin around. Do you see it curving? If you tilt your head 20 degrees and spin around, do you see it curving?

Explain it.

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Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: The Bishop Challenge
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2019, 06:16:26 PM »
Explain it.

That's precisely what has been asked of you. You invoke EAT so can you explain the 'approximation' formula and run something through it and see if it meets with observations? For instance, how does the "Bishop constant" work?