Radar ranging in the Solar System

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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Radar ranging in the Solar System
« on: November 14, 2019, 04:44:04 PM »
Okay, so in 1946, the distance to the Moon was first measured using radar. It wasn't 3,000 miles. Since then, we have measured the distance to many objects in the solar system with radar including Venus, Mars and Mercury. These weren't done once, but dozens maybe hundreds of times. None of them were 3,000 miles away. Do you know what was oddly not detected with radar ranging? A dome.

It's also not that difficult to reproduce. Sure, it will take a little bit of money to construct a radar system capable of ranging the Moon. But not as much as you might think. Easily affordable by one of the more successful Flat Earth Youtube personas.

So... how about it? Show us the dome!
Nullius in Verba

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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 10:58:42 AM »
*crickets chirp*
Nullius in Verba

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rabinoz

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2019, 02:40:47 PM »
*crickets chirp*
In the past there have been excuses like:
Distance assumes radio propagation through vacuum. If lumiferous aether or firmament glue or whatever has a different propagation speed, the delay will be longer and this assumed distance larger.
And have a look at: Second try at moonbounce post « Reply #4 on: November 02, 2018, 06:40:15 AM »
This is not directly relavent but "interesting": Flat Earth Believers / Re: Advanced Flat Earth Theory « Message by sandokhan on April 04, 2018, 12:01:13 AM »

I think that FEers realise that all their excuses are poppy-cock so choose to ignore topics like this.

Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2019, 11:58:12 PM »
Quote
Sure, it will take a little bit of money to construct a radar system capable of ranging the Moon

Astronomers at the McDonald Observatory in Texas have been laser ranging the Moon for over 40 years.  I know that because when I went to the Texas Star Party which is held just a few miles away at the Prude Guest Ranch they organise tours of the observatory. During my particular visit the Moon was in the sky and they were able to demonstrate how its done and show us the result.  Takes just over 2.5 seconds for the laser to travel to the Moon and back again.

Distance is speed x time so 300,000km/s x 2.56 seconds.  You do the maths...


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rvlvr

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2019, 01:41:52 AM »
"The reason why we're winning against science is that science just throws math at us."
-Mark Sargent

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2019, 03:08:00 AM »
One of the top threads of all time:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=58190.0;nowap

Physicists are beginning to realize now, after more than 100 years have passed since the statement made in 1905 by Einstein, that the so-called postulate of the constancy of light is just that, a simple opinion with no scientific proof behind it.

Einstein, 1905:

"The principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is of course contained in Maxwell's equations”

However, those are the HEAVISIDE-LORENTZ equations and not the original J.C. MAXWELL equations.

This means that a different set of equations will make this statement null and void.

The original Maxwell equations are INVARIANT UNDER GALILEAN TRANSFORMATIONS: that is, they are superluminal.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2058884#msg2058884 (dynamical Maxwell equations)

“Light cannot be anything else but a longitudinal disturbance in the ether, involving alternate compressions and rarefactions. In other words, light can be nothing else than a sound wave in the ether”

“It being a fact that radio waves are essentially like sound waves in the air"

Nikola Tesla

Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2019, 03:49:55 AM »
Quote
“It being a fact that radio waves are essentially like sound waves in the air"

Except that radio waves don't need a medium to travel through while sound waves (which travel much, much slower) don't. 

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2019, 04:32:53 AM »
Tesla sound waves in ether:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2193463#msg2193463

Please explain to your readers, to the best of your knowledge, what an electromagnetic/radio wave is.

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rabinoz

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2019, 04:34:02 AM »
One of the top threads of all time:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=58190.0;nowap

Physicists are beginning to realize now, after more than 100 years have passed since the statement made in 1905 by Einstein, that the so-called postulate of the constancy of light is just that, a simple opinion with no scientific proof behind it.

Einstein, 1905:

"The principle of the constancy of the velocity of light is of course contained in Maxwell's equations”

However, those are the HEAVISIDE-LORENTZ equations and not the original J.C. MAXWELL equations.

This means that a different set of equations will make this statement null and void.

The original Maxwell equations are INVARIANT UNDER GALILEAN TRANSFORMATIONS: that is, they are superluminal.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2058884#msg2058884 (dynamical Maxwell equations)

“Light cannot be anything else but a longitudinal disturbance in the ether, involving alternate compressions and rarefactions. In other words, light can be nothing else than a sound wave in the ether”
Why would Tesla say that when we know that EM propagation is by a Transverse Electromagnetic mode wave (TEM wave) where the E and B vectors are normal to each other and to the direction of travel as in:


Quote from: sandokhan
“It being a fact that radio waves are essentially like sound waves in the air"

Nikola Tesla
What has any of that to do with the topic, which happens to be "Radar ranging in the Solar System".

Radar signals were first returned from the moon in 1946:
Quote
SP-4218 To See the Unseen
- Chapter One -
A Meteoric Start

 
[1] During the 1940s, investigators in the United States and Hungary bounced radar waves off the Moon for the first time, while others made the first systematic radar studies of meteors. These experiments constituted the initial exploration of the solar system with radar. In order to understand the beginnings of radar astronomy, we first must examine the origins of radar in radio, the decisive role of ionospheric research, and the rapid development of radar technology triggered by World War II.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Project Diana
[9] The Signal Corps tried several times, but without success. "The equipment was very haywire," recalled DeWitt. Finally, at moonrise, 11:48 A.M., on 10 January 1946, they aimed the antenna at the horizon and began transmitting. Ironically, DeWitt was not present: "I was over in Belmar having lunch and picking up some items like cigarettes at the drug store (stopped smoking 1952 thank God)." The first signals were detected at 11:58 A.M., and the experiment was concluded at 12:09 P.M., when the Moon moved out of the radar's range. The radio waves had taken about 2.5 seconds to travel from New Jersey to the Moon and back, a distance of over 800,000 km. The experiment was repeated daily over the next three days and on eight more days later that month.

Then in 1961 radar returns were first detected from Venus:
Quote
To See the Unseen, - Chapter Two - Fickle Venus
On 10 March 1961, a month before inferior conjunction, the Goldstone radars were pointed at Venus. The first signals completed the round-trip of 113 million kilometers in about six and a half minutes. During the 68 seconds of electronic signal integration time, 1 of 7 recording styluses on Goldstein's instrument deviated significantly from its zero level and remained at the new level.
From: SP-4218 To See the Unseen, Chapter Two - Fickle Venus, full document: SP-4218 To See the Unseen.

Now we know that even on the Flat Earth model, Venus at its closest approach to must be considerably closer to Earth than the sun. After all, we regularly get transits of Venus across the sun.

But a radar signal from Earth to Venus and back, even when not at conjunction took about six and a half minutes.
More on that from:

Title: The Astronomical Unit Determined by Radar Reflections from Venus,
Authors: Muhleman, D. O., Holdridge, D. B., & Block, N.


Radar ranging of distances to the nearer planets is now standard practice:
Solar System Studies at Arecibo Observatory: Introduction to Planetary Radar. Though at the Arecibo Observatory the interest is more in the details of the surface features.

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rabinoz

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2019, 04:44:08 AM »
Tesla sound waves in ether:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2193463#msg2193463

Please explain to your readers, to the best of your knowledge, what an electromagnetic/radio wave is.
Please derive the mechanical properties needed to support longitudinal waves travelling at a velocity of close to 300,000 km/sec with the known characteristic impedance of free space,.

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2019, 04:47:19 AM »

Why would Tesla say that when we know that EM propagation is by a Transverse Electromagnetic mode wave (TEM wave) where the E and B vectors are normal to each other and to the direction of travel as in:


You haven't done your homework on this subject.

One of the rather "bad examples" of ubiquitous errors in electrodynamics is the conventional illustration of a so-called planar EM wavefront moving through space."



Dr. Robert H. Romer, former Editor of the American Journal of Physics, also chastised the diagram shown above, purporting to illustrate the transverse plane wave traveling through 3-space. In endnote 24 of his noteworthy editorial, Dr. Romer takes that diagram to task as follows:

"…that dreadful diagram purporting to show the electric and magnetic fields of a plane wave, as a function of position (and/or time?) that besmirch the pages of almost every introductory book. …it is a horrible diagram. 'Misleading' would be too kind a word; 'wrong' is more accurate." "…perhaps then, for historical interest, [we should] find out how that diagram came to contaminate our literature in the first place."

Yet, you present this dreadful, horrible, misleading diagram that contaminates the pages of almost every book as true fact to your readers.

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2019, 04:59:28 AM »


What is this?

That's the permeability/permittivity equation for transverse waves.

You need the equation for superluminal longitudinal waves:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2058884#msg2058884

As for the mechanical properties, they have already been worked out by J.C. Maxwell (the sea of molecular vortices):

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1918701#msg1918701

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Yes

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2019, 08:07:48 AM »
Hold on, back up.

Regardless of the true nature of light or the possibility of superluminal ether subboson anu psychic dextralavatory double torsion tornadoes, if we consistently measure light in a vacuum to be a roughly fixed speed, then it can still be used as a measuring rod, within that degree of measurable error.  It doesn't matter if Einstein was pulling our legs or not.  If it takes a round trip of about two and a half seconds for light to travel from earth to the moon and back to earth, then that indeed is a measurement that is completely inconsistent with Near Moon Theory.

You'd have to add wild, speculative, and most importantly unverified and unmeasured (not to mention inconsistent) physics to begin explain local differences in radar pulse propagation.  Or, I suppose, you can just throw away the radar results as yet another aspect of that worldwide multi-generational conspiracy that spends trillions on maintaining the prank of the shape of the earth.
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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2019, 08:11:59 AM »
Hold on, back up.

Regardless of the true nature of light or the possibility of superluminal ether subboson anu psychic dextralavatory double torsion tornadoes, if we consistently measure light in a vacuum to be a roughly fixed speed, then it can still be used as a measuring rod, within that degree of measurable error.  It doesn't matter if Einstein was pulling our legs or not.  If it takes a round trip of about two and a half seconds for light to travel from earth to the moon and back to earth, then that indeed is a measurement that is completely inconsistent with Near Moon Theory.

You'd have to add wild, speculative, and most importantly unverified and unmeasured (not to mention inconsistent) physics to begin explain local differences in radar pulse propagation.  Or, I suppose, you can just throw away the radar results as yet another aspect of that worldwide multi-generational conspiracy that spends trillions on maintaining the prank of the shape of the earth.

And even if we can't count on C=300,000 km/s, then whatever the speed of light actually is, it is still incredibly fast, it would still be constant and it would mean that Venus is still much, much further from the Earth than the Moon is.
Nullius in Verba

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2019, 08:43:32 AM »
if we consistently measure light in a vacuum to be a roughly fixed speed, then it can still be used as a measuring rod, within that degree of measurable error

The speed of light is variable. A fact accepted by most relativists: anisotropy in the physical, local speed of light.

If it takes a round trip of about two and a half seconds for light to travel from earth to the moon and back to earth, then that indeed is a measurement that is completely inconsistent with Near Moon Theory.

Not at the speed of light. The density of ether increases greatly near the Dome, thus the speed of light will diminish by a corresponding amount once it encounters those layers of aether/ether.

Remember the Ruderfer experiment: the local-ether model which must be adopted in order for the relativists to save face.

A Hertzian wave is just a ripple in the sea of ether.

Ether = subquark strings = telluric currents

A telluric current is a transversal wave, through which flow/propagate longitudinal waves.

A non-Hertzian wave is just such a longitudinal wave, propagating through the transversal wave.

This is true wireless.

Tesla used exclusively non-Hertzian waves, and none of the Hertzian waves.

The speed of a radio wave is completely and absolutely linked to the density of aether in the atmosphere.


All space is permeated by a fluid Aether, containing an immense number of excessively small whirlpools. The elasticity which the Aether appears to possess, and in virtue of which it is able to transmit vibrations, is really due to the presence of these whirlpools; for, owing to centrifugal force, each whirlpool is continually striving to dilate, and so presses against the neighbouring whirlpools.

E.T. Whittaker


Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2019, 09:18:47 AM »
Quote
The speed of light is variable. A fact accepted by most relativists: anisotropy in the physical, local speed of light.

Really... care to name one then so I can look them up please.  If the speed of light was variable as you suggest, then that would have some major implications to the Universe as we experience it. 

https://www.space.com/15830-light-speed.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light

The second link here talks about a variable speed of light (VSL) but describes it as a hypothesis rather than a fact as you do.  Or do you know something that no one else does?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 09:23:33 AM by Nucleosynthesis »

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Yes

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2019, 09:19:15 AM »
The speed of light is variable. A fact accepted by most relativists: anisotropy in the physical, local speed of light.
False.  c is a constant.  Lorentz transformations of spacetime preserve c.  Zero relativists would claim otherwise, because lorentz transformations are at the heart of relativity.

The density of ether increases greatly near the Dome, thus the speed of light will diminish by a corresponding amount once it encounters those layers of aether/ether.
Nothing has ever taken ether density measurements near or at the Dome.  No one and nothing has never been near or at the Dome.  Your claim is wild speculation, unverified and unmeasured.

it would mean that Venus is still much, much further from the Earth than the Moon is.
This is an excellent point.  Sandokhan, how do the different "luminaries" warp ether density differently such that their affects on the speed of light makes them appear as though they are millions of miles away and consistent with the heliocentric model?
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Macarios

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2019, 09:52:41 AM »
That "horrible" diagram represents
one plane in the reference frame of the other plane,
not the two planes in the reference frame of the space.
And within each plane are just intensities.

Radio wave can't stop propagating without barrier simply because of Lenz Law.
You should be able to understand that.

Increase/decrease of the field in one point is opposed by the increase/decrease of the opposite field in the next point and vice versa.
There are two points around the current point: previous point and next point.
The difference between the two is the fact that one had field before the current point and the other didn't.
The energy simply gets gradually transfered from point to point, previous point loses energy and next one gains.
Transmitter keeps radiating which pumps the previous point with the next amount of energy that then transfers farther by the same principle.

Energy can't disappear and you don't need the obsolete idea of ether for that.
Fields exist without it and physics will eventually discover what they really are.

Simple enough?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 09:55:04 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2019, 10:25:35 AM »
Lorentz transformations of spacetime preserve c.

Superluminal Lorentz transformations:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2194778#msg2194778

Zero relativists would claim otherwise

“ .. the principle of the constancy of c cannot be applied in a rotating reference frame ..”.

“Now consider a process in which observers in the rotating frame attempt to use Einstein synchronization (constancy of the speed of light) ..... Simple minded use of Einstein
synchronization in the rotating frame ... thus leads to a significant error”.

N. Ashby

Dr. R.D. Klauber, as mainstream a relativist as they come, has written extensively on the anisotropy of light in the context of non-time orthogonal relativity.

Nothing has ever taken ether density measurements near or at the Dome.

But they have: the RUDERFER experiment.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721 (the existence of the local-ether model)

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Yes

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2019, 10:42:45 AM »
“ .. the principle of the constancy of c cannot be applied in a rotating reference frame ..”.
You are confusing different inertial frames of reference, perhaps on intentionally, to try to slide out of the fact that c is still constant.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0703/0703123.pdf
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/rotatingCoordinates.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propagation_of_light_in_non-inertial_reference_frames

Your assertions would be less embarrassing if you just googled them first.

Nothing has ever taken ether density measurements near or at the Dome.

But they have: the RUDERFER experiment.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721 (the existence of the local-ether model)
Ctrl+F, "dome" ... nope.  Still nothing has ever taken ether density measurements near or at the Dome.


So, any comment on why radar suggests Venus is significantly farther away from Earth than the Moon?
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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2019, 10:52:43 AM »
if we consistently measure light in a vacuum to be a roughly fixed speed, then it can still be used as a measuring rod, within that degree of measurable error

The speed of light is variable. A fact accepted by most relativists: anisotropy in the physical, local speed of light.

If it takes a round trip of about two and a half seconds for light to travel from earth to the moon and back to earth, then that indeed is a measurement that is completely inconsistent with Near Moon Theory.

Not at the speed of light. The density of ether increases greatly near the Dome, thus the speed of light will diminish by a corresponding amount once it encounters those layers of aether/ether.

Why?
By how much?
If this slow-down is only near the 'dome', then wouldn't the effect be consistent and therefore able to be accounted for in measuring the distance to objects far from the dome? For example, if a round-trip for a radar signal to and from the Moon is 2.5 seconds, then if a radar signal takes 6 1/2 minutes to reach Venus and back, the slow-down due to 'aether' near the 'dome' could at best result in less than 2.5 seconds of that 6 1/2 minutes. Thus Venus is still many, many times further away than the Moon is.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 10:55:50 AM by EvolvedMantisShrimp »
Nullius in Verba

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2019, 11:15:52 AM »
Here is the DUFOUR-PRUNIER experiment, carried out with BOTH rotating and stationary paths:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1978311#msg1978311

“In his final essay on the subject in 1937, Langevin proposed that the results published that year by Dufour and Prunier showed that one had to assume either (a) the light speed varied to c + wr in one direction and c – wr in the other direction, or (b) the time aboard the spinning apparatus had to change by a factor of +/-2wA/c2 in either direction. Indeed, Langevin went as far as to say that assuming (a), “we find, by a very simple and very general reasoning, the formula for the difference of the times of the path of the two light beams in the Sagnac experiment.” .

The proposition (b) though is untenable because if this were true then when the light beam passed back to the moving detector, the local time from each direction would be out of synchronization, meaning that the clocks cannot be counting real time and that the effective time dilation is meaningless. This was also pointed out by Herbert Ives in his 1938 paper criticizing Langevin. Ives says about the absurdity of Langevin’s proposition (b):

” There are of course not merely two clocks, but an infinity of clocks, where we include those that could be transported at finite speeds, and around other paths. As emphasized previously, the idea of “local time” is untenable, what we have are clock readings. Any number of clock readings at the same place are physically possible, depending on the behaviour and history of the  clocks used. More than one “time” at one place is a physical absurdity. “

The only explanation left, is Langevin’s proposition a) that the light speed varies by C+/-wr in one or the other direction around the disk, consistent with Dufour and Prunier’s experimental results."

The varying speed for the GPS signals was proved by Professor Ruyong Wang:



As for the existence of the dome, you must understand the implications of the RUDERFER experiment which proved the local-ether model.

How is this local-ether model distributed?





Remember, the existence of this local-ether model was proved by the RUDERFER experiment:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1846721#msg1846721

Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 11:52:50 AM »
Physicists are beginning to realize now, after more than 100 years have passed since the statement made in 1905 by Einstein, that the so-called postulate of the constancy of light is just that, a simple opinion with no scientific proof behind it.
Sure, except the mountains of evidence supporting it.
And it is just constant, in an inertial frame, in a vacuum.

“It being a fact that radio waves are essentially like sound waves in the air"
Care to finish the quote?
He was talking about one specific property, not in general.
It is quite obvious that radio waves are not like sound waves in air for many properties.
Sound waves are longitudinal waves.
This has no capability of being polarised.

Due to the fact that light waves can be polarised, that demands that light consists of transverse waves.
This then requires that any medium for its propagation must be cohesive, and be solid or liquid.

You need the equation for superluminal longitudinal waves:
When discussing the propagation of light, why would we need the equation for something travelling faster than light?

The density of ether increases greatly near the Dome
Do you mean the aether that was shown to be impossible due to the numerous contradictions?

Do you have any evidence for your wild speculation?

Posting a bunch of sources that show you are wrong doesn't help your case.
Just where do any of them claim there is a dome or that the speed of light shrinks so much that the moon can be as close as required in your model?

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2019, 11:53:11 AM »
Cool, I'm sure what you've described is 100% accurate.  Like you, I will ignore the complication that you're completely mixing up the rotation of a frame of reference with the rotation of a hypothetical medium of light.

So how fast would something have to spin to see a difference in minutes for a round-trip radar bounce?
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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2019, 12:25:27 PM »
So how fast would something have to spin to see a difference in minutes for a round-trip radar bounce?

The spin can be the same, however the density of ether is all that matters.

Due to the fact that light waves can be polarised, that demands that light consists of transverse waves.

You still don't get it.

Longitudinal strings of bosons travel/propagate through transverse subquark waves.

This is what Tesla was talking about: non-Hertzian waves.

The transverse waves are just ripples in the sea of ether.

Tesla avoided these ripples by sending the signals directly through the longitudinal strings of bosons: true wireless.

Sure, except the mountains of evidence supporting it.

Completely wrong: the original set of Maxwell's equations are INVARIANT UNDER GALILEAN TRANSFORMATIONS, thus superluminal speeds can be easily attained.

Einstein based his statement on the Heaviside-Lorentz equations.

Do you mean the aether that was shown to be impossible due to the numerous contradictions?

Have you forgotten the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT?

That is why relativists are FORCED to accept the local-ether model, which is a fact of science.



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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2019, 12:42:43 PM »
Okay, so if we're not talking about rotation, why did you bring it up?  Whatever, don't answer that.  Answer this instead:

What is causing the ether density fluctuation such that no radar reflects off the Dome, radar reflects off the Moon on the order of seconds, and radar reflects off Venus on the order of minutes?
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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2019, 12:51:32 PM »
Okay, so in 1946, the distance to the Moon was first measured using radar. It wasn't 3,000 miles. Since then, we have measured the distance to many objects in the solar system with radar including Venus, Mars and Mercury. These weren't done once, but dozens maybe hundreds of times. None of them were 3,000 miles away. Do you know what was oddly not detected with radar ranging? A dome.

It's also not that difficult to reproduce. Sure, it will take a little bit of money to construct a radar system capable of ranging the Moon. But not as much as you might think. Easily affordable by one of the more successful Flat Earth Youtube personas.

So... how about it? Show us the dome!


Mirrors were left on the moon, its possible to bounce lasers off the moon and measure the distance to the moon very precisely using these mirrors.   Probably not with at home equipment, you would probably have to rent time at an observatory, but it can be done.


Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2019, 12:55:54 PM »
This is what Tesla was talking about: non-Hertzian waves.
No, what Tesla was talking about was the penetrating ability of different waves, where he claimed that similar to sound waves, radio waves with shorter wavelengths should be more penetrating.

Again, the fact that the waves can be polarised requires them to be transverse waves.

Completely wrong: the original set of Maxwell's equations
An equation proves nothing.
All the available evidence shows the speed of light is invariant in inertial reference frames.

Have you forgotten the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT?
There is none.
If you want to spam your ignorance of the Saganac effect, go back to a thread on it.

That is why relativists are FORCED to accept the local-ether model, which is a fact of science.
No, it isn't.
It is your delusional fantasy.

Again, what evidence do you have for your magic aether dome?
Especially considering that aether has been refuted due to the contradictions it requires.

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2019, 01:19:46 PM »
What is causing the ether density fluctuation such that no radar reflects off the Dome, radar reflects off the Moon on the order of seconds, and radar reflects off Venus on the order of minutes?

The density of ether around Venus is much higher than that around the Moon.

Mirrors were left on the moon, its possible to bounce lasers off the moon and measure the distance to the moon very precisely using these mirrors.

No.

The "mirror" is a very small satellite which orbits in front of the Moon, on our side of the Dome, using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

An equation proves nothing.

It proves everything since the original set of Maxwell equations is invariant under Galilean transformations.




We proceed to solve the common Maxwell’s equations (1.10) to (1.12).




This is the classic solution of Maxwell’s equation for a planar electromagnetic wave. As expected, the speed of propagation of the electromagnetic waves is the nominal speed of light c since there is no motion relative to the RCS (due to the restriction in the derivation of the common form of Maxwell’s equations).

What happens when a radiation source moves with respect to the RCS? It follows from the assumption of the universal validity of Maxwell’s equations (1.20) and (1.21) (namely: that they are valid in any inertial coordinate system) that the speed of propagation of any electromagnetic wave in all inertial coordinate systems is constant

and equals to the nominal speed of light c [solution (1.23) to equation (1.21)]. Thus, the speed of propagation of electromagnetic waves being constant in all inertial coordinate systems is not necessarily a measured observation. It is an assumption, a consequence of the assumed universal validity of the common Maxwell’s equations even for dynamic systems.

Suppose that a radiation source moves at a speed u in the positive direction of the x axis of the RCS. As engineers (hopefully with some common sense), and in agreement with the Galilean transformation where velocity vectors are additive, we would expect the electric field vector, of the propagating planar electromagnetic wave parallel to the x axis, to have the following form with respect to the RCS:



As noted in the previous chapter Maxwell’s equations (1.10) to (1.12), along with their derivatives (1.20) and (1.21), were formulated for static systems, namely: no motion relative to the RCS. Their wrong application to dynamic systems led to the Lorentz transformation and Einstein’s theory of relativity.

We proceed with the application of the corrected Maxwell equations to a planar wave in vacuum where all coordinate systems are inertial. It follows from the assumption that all coordinate systems, including the RCS, are inertial that the velocity vector V in equations (1.1) and (1.2) is constant. Equations (1.1) and (1.2) become:











« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 01:25:37 PM by sandokhan »

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sandokhan

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Re: Radar ranging in the Solar System
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2019, 01:22:49 PM »
There is none.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f606/87008dd7b3e872c67770eaa9ada9128bbf8b.pdf

Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.

The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.


https://web.archive.org/web/20170808104846/http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.


In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

https://web.archive.org/web/20050217023926/https://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/










Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Your statement has just been refuted and debunked: the orbital SAGNAC effect is missing.

You have to deal with the missing ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT, which you are not.


LISA Space Antenna



The LISA interferometer rotates both around its own axis and around the Sun as well, at the same time.

That is, the interferometer will be subjected to BOTH the rotational Sagnac (equivalent to the Coriolis effect) and the orbital Sagnac effects.

Given the huge cost of the entire project, the best experts in the field (CalTech, ESA) were called upon to provide the necessary theoretical calculations for the total phase shift of the interferometer. To everyone's surprise, and for the first time since Sagnac and Michelson and Gale, it was found that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is much greater than the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The factor of proportionality is R/L (R = radius of rotation, L = length of the side of the interferometer).



Algebraic approach to time-delay data analysis: orbiting case
K Rajesh Nayak and J-Y Vinet

https://www.cosmos.esa.int/documents/946106/1027345/TDI_FOR_.PDF/2bb32fba-1b8a-438d-9e95-bc40c32debbe

This is an IOP article, published by the prestigious journal Classic and Quantum Gravity:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/22/10/040/meta

In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.

This work is organized as follows: in section 2, we make an estimate of Sagnac phase
for individual laser beams of LISA by taking realistic orbital motion. Here we show that, in general, the residual laser noise because of Sagnac phase is much larger than earlier estimates.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The computations carried out by Dr. R.K. Nayak (over ten papers published on the subject) and Dr. J.Y. Vinet (Member of the LISA International Science Team), and published by prestigious scientific journals and by ESA, show that the orbital Sagnac is 30 times greater than the rotational Sagnac for LISA.


CALTECH acknowledges that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is not being registered by GPS satellites.


https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).

SSB = solar system barycenter

Published in the Physical Review D

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ is the U.S. Naval Observatory website


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


You have to accept reality: CALTECH/NASA/ESA is telling you that THE ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT IS MISSING. Then, the Earth is stationary. Or you have to accept the local-ether model.