The earth rotation

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2020, 04:20:03 AM »
That could be a dash, not a minus sign.
No, it is quite clearly a minus sign.
What would the dash even mean?

I suppose it could mean the average readings of angular velocity.  But then a graph against time would just be a horizontal line, which would be pointless.  It also could hardly be called raw data.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2020, 05:29:10 PM »
Looks like these folks disagree with your findings. According to them the Sagnac effect is indeed registered by an RLG:

How is it then that everybody of note does claim that Ring Laser Gyroscopes do measure the rotation of the Earth through the SAGNAC EFFECT?

Are all those physicists wrong and are you the only one who is right?


This was before the LISA SPACE ANTENNA calculations.

LISA Space Antenna



The LISA interferometer rotates both around its own axis and around the Sun as well, at the same time.

That is, the interferometer will be subjected to BOTH the rotational Sagnac (equivalent to the Coriolis effect) and the orbital Sagnac effects.

Given the huge cost of the entire project, the best experts in the field (CalTech, ESA) were called upon to provide the necessary theoretical calculations for the total phase shift of the interferometer. To everyone's surprise, and for the first time since Sagnac and Michelson and Gale, it was found that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is much greater than the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The factor of proportionality is R/L (R = radius of rotation, L = length of the side of the interferometer).



Algebraic approach to time-delay data analysis: orbiting case
K Rajesh Nayak and J-Y Vinet

https://www.cosmos.esa.int/documents/946106/1027345/TDI_FOR_.PDF/2bb32fba-1b8a-438d-9e95-bc40c32debbe

This is an IOP article, published by the prestigious journal Classic and Quantum Gravity:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/22/10/040/meta

In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.

This work is organized as follows: in section 2, we make an estimate of Sagnac phase
for individual laser beams of LISA by taking realistic orbital motion. Here we show that, in general, the residual laser noise because of Sagnac phase is much larger than earlier estimates.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The computations carried out by Dr. R.K. Nayak (over ten papers published on the subject) and Dr. J.Y. Vinet (Member of the LISA International Science Team), and published by prestigious scientific journals and by ESA, show that the orbital Sagnac is 30 times greater than the rotational Sagnac for LISA.


CALTECH acknowledges that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is not being registered by GPS satellites.


https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).

SSB = solar system barycenter

Published in the Physical Review D

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ is the U.S. Naval Observatory website


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.



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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2020, 06:04:54 PM »
TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.

We're not talking about LISA and the sun, but about earth rotation. As stated before, physicists disagree with your assessment: Earth-bound RLG's measure the Sagnac frequency.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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rabinoz

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2020, 07:36:07 PM »
Looks like these folks disagree with your findings. According to them the Sagnac effect is indeed registered by an RLG:

How is it then that everybody of note does claim that Ring Laser Gyroscopes do measure the rotation of the Earth through the SAGNAC EFFECT?

Are all those physicists wrong and are you the only one who is right?


This was before the LISA SPACE ANTENNA calculations.
The LISA interferometer rotates both around its own axis and around the Sun as well, at the same time.

That is, the interferometer will be subjected to BOTH the rotational Sagnac (equivalent to the Coriolis effect) and the orbital Sagnac effects.

Given the huge cost of the entire project, the best experts in the field (CalTech, ESA) were called upon to provide the necessary theoretical calculations for the total phase shift of the interferometer. To everyone's surprise, and for the first time since Sagnac and Michelson and Gale, it was found that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is much greater than the CORIOLIS EFFECT.
Look, the "LISA SPACE ANTENNA" is a quite different to either the GPS of these RLGs so I fail to see the relevance.
For a start the orbital period and the rotational period of LISA are both one year not only that but there is not one laser sending light in both directions but lasers at each corner..

Besides, you don't believe that the Earth or the LISA satellites could be orbiting the Sun so I see it as a mite hypocritical to try to use this material to support your ideas that no one else in this whole world seems to support.

But who said it was "To everyone's surprise"? You alone?
Where has anyone mentioned "CORIOLIS EFFECT" other than you? Stop reading into papers thing that are not there.

Quote from: sandokhan
TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.
So you say but everyone else says that the Coriolis force is .
The Coriolis acceleration is 2 x the vector cross product of (the angular velocity of the rotating reference frame) and the (velocity of the particle).
No area comes into it.

Quote from: sandokhan
The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.
So you say but everybody else says that the Sagnac delay is proportional to the (angular velocity of the loop) x (the area of the loop projected onto the plane of rotation).
That can be expressed as an inner vector product if you wish.

Quote from: sandokhan
RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.
Incorrect! You go and read all the papers by people that know far more than you who all refer to the GINGERino ring-laser-Gyroscopes as being Sagnac devices.

Quote from: sandokhan
The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.
What was recorded was the Sagnac effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2020, 10:39:06 PM »
As stated before, physicists disagree with your assessment: Earth-bound RLG's measure the Sagnac frequency.

Not anymore.

Here is the latest viewpoint.

The formula which features an area and an angular velocity is now derived DIRECTLY using the CORIOLIS force:




The Sagnac Phase Shift
G. Rizzi and M.L. Ruggiero
(two of the best known experts on the SAGNAC EFFECT in the world)

(M.L. Ruggiero is member of the GINGER collaboration)

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0305046.pdf

The CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, 4Aω/c2, has been derived using solely the CORIOLIS FORCE.

But this is not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula, which is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.

Stokes' theorem/formula guarantees that there will always be two formulas for each interferometer: the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula and the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.


Cambridge University:


https://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.0392.pdf

The influence of Earth rotation in neutrino speed measurements between CERN and the OPERA detector

Markus G. Kuhn
Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge

For the first time ever, it was acknowledged that the SAGNAC EFFECT measured for the neutrino experiment is actually the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

"As the authors did not indicate whether and how they took into account the Coriolis or Sagnac effect that Earth’s rotation has on the (southeastwards traveling) neutrinos, this brief note quantifies this effect.

And the resulting Coriolis effect (in optics also known as Sagnac effect) should be taken into account."


Look, the "LISA SPACE ANTENNA" is a quite different to either the GPS of these RLGs so I fail to see the relevance.

Your statement belongs to CN.

BOTH ARE LIGHT INTERFEROMETERS.

For a start the orbital period and the rotational period of LISA are both one year not only that but there is not one laser sending light in both directions but lasers at each corner..

GINGER has corners too, four of them.

It doesn't matter how many lasers you have: what does matter are the LOOPS.

THE FORMULAS ARE THE SAME: both RLGs and LISA features the very same formulas.

Where has anyone mentioned "CORIOLIS EFFECT" other than you? Stop reading into papers thing that are not there.

 You go and read all the papers by people that know far more than you who all refer to the GINGERino ring-laser-Gyroscopes as being Sagnac devices.


Read the above references: THE VERY BEST.

GINGER and CAMBRIDGE agree with me.

What was recorded was the Sagnac effect.

You cannot derive the SAGNAC EFFECT from the CORIOLIS FORCE.

Read the proof provided by G. Rizzi and M.L. Ruggiero, the best experts in the world on the SAGNAC EFFECT.

Read the statements issued by Cambridge University.


Here is the CORIOLIS EFFECT FORMULA:

Δt = 4AΩ/c2

Here is the SAGNAC EFFECT FORMULA:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2


Professor MASSIMO TINTO, principal scientist at CALTECH agrees with me:


https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).

SSB = solar system barycenter

Published in the Physical Review D

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ is the U.S. Naval Observatory website


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 10:40:40 PM by sandokhan »

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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2020, 11:37:44 PM »
RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.

Apparently not. According to the following the Sagnac effect is indeed registered by an RLG:

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
K. U. Schreiber, A. Velikoseltsev, M. Rothacher

The Effect of Polar Motion on Ring Laser Gyroscopes
In an active laser cavity, as is the case for our instruments, lasing is achieved when an integral number of wavelengths circumscribe the ring perimeter. Since the path length is slightly different for the co-rotating and the counter-rotating beams the lasing frequencies are also slightly different in each case and the beat frequency of the two laser beams, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0406156.pdf
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2020, 11:50:55 PM »
Yes, you tried this before.

Take a look at the date of the article: 2004.

Now, you and these scientists have to deal with the TWO FORMULAS DERIVED FOR THE LISA SPACE ANTENNA by Professor Massimo Tinto, principal scientist at CALTECH.

The same two formulas derived by ESA.

RLGs measure the CORIOLIS EFFECT, the formula proportional to the area, nothing else.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is much larger than the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).

SSB = solar system barycenter

Published in the Physical Review D



TAKE A LOOK AT THE DATE: 2018!


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.

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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2020, 12:24:26 AM »
Yes, you tried this before.

Take a look at the date of the article: 2004.

Now, you and these scientists have to deal with the TWO FORMULAS DERIVED FOR THE LISA SPACE ANTENNA by Professor Massimo Tinto, principal scientist at CALTECH.

The same two formulas derived by ESA.

RLGs measure the CORIOLIS EFFECT, the formula proportional to the area, nothing else.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is much larger than the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

What you have cited is all regarding the Solar System Barycentric (SSB), not the rotation of the earth. Two vastly different things.

From an earth rotation and RLG perspective, as it stands, according to the following the Sagnac effect is indeed registered by an RLG:

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
K. U. Schreiber, A. Velikoseltsev, M. Rothacher

The Effect of Polar Motion on Ring Laser Gyroscopes
In an active laser cavity, as is the case for our instruments, lasing is achieved when an integral number of wavelengths circumscribe the ring perimeter. Since the path length is slightly different for the co-rotating and the counter-rotating beams the lasing frequencies are also slightly different in each case and the beat frequency of the two laser beams, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0406156.pdf
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2020, 12:26:42 AM »
You are trolling the upper forums.

The formula for RLGs and the CORIOLIS FORMULA for LISA are the same.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2020, 12:37:44 AM »
http://web.archive.org/web/20130218082359/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2006/paper28.pdf

The term “Sagnac effect” is part of the vocabulary of only the observer in the rotating reference frame. The corresponding correction applied by the inertial observer might be called a “velocity correction.” While the interpretation of the correction is different in the two frames, the numerical value is the same in either frame.

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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2020, 12:51:05 AM »
You are trolling the upper forums.

The formula for RLGs and the CORIOLIS FORMULA for LISA are the same.

Apparently, you are trolling the upper forums.

Terrestrial RLGs register/measure the Sagnac Effect according to previously cited papers. Regardless of whether you agree or not.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2020, 12:55:18 AM »
Not anymore.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

Make sure to mail this quote to each and every physicist who said that ring laser gyroscopes measure the SAGNAC EFFECT.

RLGs measure only the CORIOLIS EFFECT, nothing else.

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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2020, 01:06:12 AM »
Not anymore.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

Make sure to mail this quote to each and every physicist who said that ring laser gyroscopes measure the SAGNAC EFFECT.

RLGs measure only the CORIOLIS EFFECT, nothing else.

Yes, still more.

Again, you're citing LISA which is in regard to Solar System Barycentric (SSB), not terrestrial RLG earth rotation. Apples and oranges.

Your point is moot.

Terrestrial RLG's record and measure the Sagnac Effect. Stick to earth.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2020, 01:23:30 AM »
LISA Space Antenna
Like I said, take it back to one of the countless prior threads on the Sagnac effect.

All the evidence shows you are wrong.
Unless you go back to one of those threads, I don't really care what lies you want to spout about the Sagnac effect.

The simple fact is that laser ring gyroscopes record the Sagnac effect for Earth's rotation.
The simple fact is that the Sagnac effect, for a simple ring interferometer is based upon the area and angular velocity.

Like I said, if you wish to disagree, go back to one of the countless threads you have destroyed and provide a derivation.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2020, 02:02:36 AM »
Again, you're citing LISA which is in regard to Solar System Barycentric (SSB), not terrestrial RLG earth rotation. Apples and oranges.

SAME FORMULA in both cases.

The very same formula.

BOTH LISA AND THE RLGs ARE LIGHT INTERFEROMETERS.

Same formula applies.


Countless threads?

Here are the best examples:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79637.0

A total disaster for the RE.

Another recent example:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83931.0

It can't get much worse than this for the RE.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES MEASURE/RECORD THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

Then you might worry about average values, raw data.

They positively do not register the SAGNAC EFFECT.

The SAGNAC EFFECT has nothing to do with the area of the interferometer.

Here is the most direct proof:




NO ROTATION, ACCELERATION OR ENCLOSED AREA APPEAR IN THIS EXPRESSION.


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Stash

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2020, 02:07:06 AM »
RING LASER GYROSCOPES MEASURE/RECORD THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

Ring Laser Gyroscopes measure/record the Sagnac Effect:

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
K. U. Schreiber, A. Velikoseltsev, M. Rothacher

The Effect of Polar Motion on Ring Laser Gyroscopes
In an active laser cavity, as is the case for our instruments, lasing is achieved when an integral number of wavelengths circumscribe the ring perimeter. Since the path length is slightly different for the co-rotating and the counter-rotating beams the lasing frequencies are also slightly different in each case and the beat frequency of the two laser beams, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0406156.pdf
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2020, 02:11:15 AM »
That was back in 2004.

Now, in 2018, things have changed dramatically.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.


Make sure you understand these very important words coming from CALTECH:

very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others

The paper referenced by you is obsolete: the new data shows that there are TWO FORMULAS TO DEAL WITH: CORIOLIS AND SAGNAC.

Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2020, 02:44:24 AM »
Countless threads?
Well yes, technically you could count them, but I can't be bothered.

Here are the best examples:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79637.0
Yes, where you ran away, after being completely unable to provide any rational justification for your claims.
You were unable to provide any derivation for your claimed formula.
And you were unable to provide a refutation of the correct derivation of the correct formula and instead just attacked it with childish assertions and refused to engage in any rational discussion.
A total disaster for you.

Another recent example:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83931.0
Yes, where you tried to completely derail the thread after you were completely incapable of defending your claims regarding the sun.

Another total disaster for you.

They positively do not register the SAGNAC EFFECT.
The SAGNAC EFFECT has nothing to do with the area of the interferometer.
Again, all the evidence shows you are wrong.
We are not discussing a FOC, which can measure a more generalised Saganc effect. We are discussing a ring interferometer.

*

sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2020, 02:59:59 AM »
Those threads show pretty clearly that I won hands down.

Each and every page.

The same formula applies for FOC as for regular mirror interferometers.

They are the very same, a more advanced technology.

Phase-conjugate mirrors (PCMs) are even more advanced than FOC, yet they feature the very same formula.

Stokes' theorem guarantees/proves that you need to deal with two formulas: one is proportional to the area, the other one is proportional to the velocity.

Dr. Massimo Tinto proves that there are TWO FORMULAS TO DEAL WITH for each and every interferometer which is located away from the center of rotation.

One is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula.

The other one is the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

RLGs register only the CORIOLIS EFFECT, not the SAGNAC EFFECT.


*

rabinoz

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2020, 03:58:37 AM »
As stated before, physicists disagree with your assessment: Earth-bound RLG's measure the Sagnac frequency.

Not anymore.

Here is the latest viewpoint.

The formula which features an area and an angular velocity is now derived DIRECTLY using the CORIOLIS force:
I'll only show an extract of that
Quote

2.3 Experimental tests and derivation of the Sagnac Effect
The Sagnac effect with matter waves has been verified experimentally using Cooper pairs[41] in 1965, using neutrons[42] in 1984, using 40Ca atoms beams[43] in 1991 and using electrons, by Hasselbach-Nicklaus[44], in 1993.
The effect of the terrestrial rotation on neutron phase was demonstrated in 1979 by Werner et al.[45] in a series of famous experiments.

The Sagnac phase shift has been derived, in the full framework of the SRT, for electromagnetic waves in vacuum (Weber[26], Dieks[27], Anandan[28], Rizzi-Tartaglia[29], Bergia-Guidone [30], Rodrigues-Sharif[31]). However, a clear and universally shared derivation for matter waves is not available as far as we know, or it is at least difficult to find it in the literature. Indeed,
the Sagnac phase shift for matter waves has been derived, in the first order approximation with respect to the velocity of rotation of the interferometer, by many authors (see Ashby’s paper in this book[46] and the paper by Hasselbach-Nicklaus for discussions and further references). These derivations are often based on an heterogeneous mixture of classical kinematics
and relativistic dynamics, or non relativistic quantum mechanics and some relativistic elements.

     An example of such derivations is given in a well-known paper by Sakurai[7], on the basis of a formal analogy between the classical Coriolis force
                       FCor = 2mov × Ω                           (3)
acting on a particle of mass mo moving in a uniformly rotating frame, and the Lorentz force
                       FLor = (e/c) v × B                            (4)
acting on a particle of charge e moving in a constant magnetic field B.


The Sagnac Phase Shift
G. Rizzi and M.L. Ruggiero (two of the best known experts on the SAGNAC EFFECT in the world)
(M.L. Ruggiero is member of the GINGER collaboration)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0305046.pdf
[/quote]
Agree!

Quote from: sandokhan
The CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, 4Aω/c2, has been derived using solely the CORIOLIS FORCE.
  • Nowhere do Rizzi and Ruggiero call it the Coriolis effect! And the only places Coriolis is mentioned is above, in
    "the field G′′i can be interpreted as a Coriolis-like gravitational-inertial field" and
    "which corresponds to a generalized Coriolis-like force."

  • On the other hand "Sagnac effect" appears numerous times where it is made obvious that they are deriving the Sagnac effect, eg:
    "In this way, we have obtained a derivation of the relativistic Sagnac time difference (whose first-order approximation coincides with Sakurai’s result) in a self-consistent way."

    Both derivations are carried out in a fully relativistic context, which turns out to be the natural arena where the Sagnac effect can be explained.
    Indeed, its universality can be clearly understood as a purely geometrical effect in the Minkowski space-time of the SRT, while it is hard to grasp in the context of classical physics."

    "we exploited this analogy in our derivation of the Sagnac effect starting from the Aharonov-Bohm effect".
So no, it has NOT "been derived using solely the CORIOLIS FORCE"! Did you miss the "formal analogy between the classical Coriolis force"?

In fact they write "its universality can be clearly understood as a purely geometrical effect in the Minkowski space-time of the SRT"!

Quote from: sandokhan
But this is not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula, which is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.
Sorry, but Rizzi and Ruggiero seem to disagree with! See above.

Quote from: sandokhan
Stokes' theorem/formula guarantees that there will always be two formulas for each interferometer: the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula and the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.
Stokes theorem "guarantees" that there will always be two ways of calculating the same formula! One by a line integral and one by a surface integral.
[/quote]
I'll let you digest that first.

Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2020, 04:40:40 AM »
Those threads show pretty clearly that I won hands down.
Really?
With you repeatedly being refuted?
With you repeatedly failing to provide any derivation to back up your claims?
With you repeatedly failing to explain why the derivation I have provided is wrong, or why that claimed by countless physicists is wrong?
With you repeatedly refusing to engage in any rational discussion and instead just ignoring what is being said?

With you bringing up references which refute your claims?

That isn't you winning.

The same formula applies for FOC as for regular mirror interferometers.
No, it doesn't. They are fundamentally different.

Stokes' theorem guarantees/proves that you need to deal with two formulas: one is proportional to the area, the other one is proportional to the velocity.
It also guarantees that these formulae will be equivalent and equate to the same number.
If you don't get the same number, it means you screwed up.

Again, it means you are wrong.
If you end up with 2 formulae with different values, i.e. they produce different numbers, Stoke's theorem guarantees that you screwed up.

There are not 2 separate effects with different formulas like you are so desperate to pretend.
There is a singular phenomenon with multiple explanations which results in the same or an equivalent formula.

*

sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2020, 05:06:10 AM »
You cannot derive the SAGNAC EFFECT from the CORIOLIS FORCE. The Coriolis force means that you are going to get the Coriolis effect.

Proof:

https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/pram/087/05/0071

Spinning Earth and its Coriolis effect on the circuital light beams

Bilger et al (1995), Anderson et al (1994) and Michelson–Gale assisted by Pearson (1925) measure/ mention Sagnac effect on the circuital light/laser beams on the spinning Earth. But from the consideration of classical electrodynamics, the effect measured/mentioned by those experimenters is the Coriolis effect, not the Sagnac effect.

Sagnac effect? No, it is Coriolis effect (section 4)

The author derives the Coriolis effect formula directly from the Coriolis force.

Case closed.

The Coriolis effect is a physical effect, nothing else, a slight path deviation of the light beams.

By contrast, the Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic effect, a modification of the velocities of the light beams.

RIZZI/RUGGIERO FORMULA #1, AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY




RIZZI/RUGGIERO FORMULA #2, NO AREA, VELOCITY




NO ROTATION, ACCELERATION OR ENCLOSED AREA APPEAR IN THIS EXPRESSION.

Sorry, but Rizzi and Ruggiero seem to disagree with!

Please write to Dr. Rizzi and to Dr. Ruggiero and have them explain why they feature TWO VERY DIFFERENT FORMULAS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT: ONE DISPLAYS AN AREA, THE OTHER ONE DOES NOT.


Stokes theorem "guarantees" that there will always be two ways of calculating the same formula! One by a line integral and one by a surface integral.

Yes.

Two distinct situations: 1. the center of rotation coincides with the geometrical center of the interferometer and 2. the center of rotation does not coincide with the geometrical center of the interferometer.

Stokes' theorem guarantees two formulas for each interferometer.

The calculations provided by Dr. Massimo Tinto prove it.

Here is what the scientists at ESA/CALTECH discovered: the R/L factor for LISA.






Show me a single "refutation" coming from you.

None will be forthcoming.

You are trolling the upper forums on a daily basis.

Your "arguments" were debunked in less than 60 seconds.

Show me and show to your readers your "refutations".

Please provide the links.

You are unable to face reality.

As such, you resort to lying on a monumental scale to satisfy what you have left of your sanity.

Here is your latest lie.

They are fundamentally different.


https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a206219.pdf

Studies of phase-conjugate optical devices concepts

US OF NAVAL RESEARCH, Physics Division

Dr. P. Yeh
PhD, Caltech, Nonlinear Optics
Principal Scientist of the Optics Department at Rockwell International Science Center
Professor, UCSB
"Engineer of the Year," at Rockwell Science Center
Leonardo da Vinci Award in 1985
Fellow of the Optical Society of America, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers



The MPPC acts like a normal mirror and Sagnac interferometry is obtained.

You have just been caught plain lying.

What are you going to do now?

Act sanely and accept defeat, or claim another "refutation" which never happened?


If you don't get the same number, it means you screwed up.

You are trolling the upper forums.

The statement refers to a single formula, applied in different references.

Not to two different formulas.

If you end up with 2 formulae with different values, i.e. they produce different numbers, Stoke's theorem guarantees that you screwed up.

One is much larger than the other, in the context where the center of rotation does not coincide with the geometrical center. This is what Dr. Massimo Tinto described as: "very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others".


The LISA SPACE ANTENNA TEAM did encounter two different formulas in their calculations.

Here is their R/L factor:





Dr. Massimo Tinto, CALTECH:

the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized

Let us now incorporate the R/L factor:



There are not 2 separate effects with different formulas like you are so desperate to pretend.

CALTECH HAS PROVIDED TWO SEPARATE EFFECT/TWO SEPARATE FORMULAS FOR THE SAME INTERFEROMETER.

CALTECH AGREES WITH ME, not with you.

No desperation on anyone's part but yours.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 07:28:28 AM by sandokhan »

Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2020, 12:40:35 PM »
You cannot derive the SAGNAC EFFECT from the CORIOLIS FORCE.
Except people have done just that.

Proof:
https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/pram/087/05/0071
He is not saying there are 2 effects.
He is saying that it isn't the Saganc effect at all, i.e. that the Sagnac effect isn't real, and instead it is just the Coriolis effect.

Try to find a single paper in a reputable journal which says that for a rotating ring interferometer there are 2 separate effects acting on the light, the Sagnac effect and the Coriolis effect, which produce a different shift. Not one showing how you can derive the Sagnac effect from the Coriolis effect or claiming the Sagnac effect is actually just the Coriolis effect.

The Coriolis effect is a physical effect, nothing else, a slight path deviation of the light beams.
By contrast, the Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic effect, a modification of the velocities of the light beams.
No, the Sagnac effect is a physical effect, the relative motion of the components of the light path.

RIZZI/RUGGIERO FORMULA #1, AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY
And notice what it ends with?
Equation 7 is the Sagnac phase shift.
This is showing how you can derive the Sagnac effect from the Coriolis effect.

Again, what the actual difference is between those 2 papers is one is focusing on ring interferometers, while the other focuses on FOCs.

Please write to Dr. Rizzi and to Dr. Ruggiero and have them explain why they feature TWO VERY DIFFERENT FORMULAS FOR THE SAGNAC EFFECT: ONE DISPLAYS AN AREA, THE OTHER ONE DOES NOT.
There is no need.
I have already explained it.
One is for a FOC, the other is for a ring interferometer or FOG.

Yes.
Two distinct situations:
No, the exact same situation, with the same value obtained by 2 methods.

Stokes' theorem guarantees two formulas for each interferometer.
Which produce the same value.
Not where you just arbitrarily throw in extra constants to try and prop up your nonsense.

Show me a single "refutation" coming from you.
Remember those threads you linked?
They had the refutations.

You are the one failing to refute anything.


Your "arguments" were debunked in less than 60 seconds.
You have debunked literally nothing.

My derivation remains unchallenged.
You were unable to show a single problem with it. Instead you just tried to ridicule it.
You were completely unable to provide a derivation of your own, and instead just repeatedly asserted that your magic formula is correct, even though problems with it were shown quite easily.

You were even completely incapable of showing a derivation or calculating how long it takes for light to go around a stationary loop.

Like I said, if you wish to disagree, go back to one of those threads and provide a derivation and clearly show what is wrong with mine.

You are unable to face reality.
As such, you resort to lying on a monumental scale to satisfy what you have left of your sanity.
Good job projecting, yet again.
Why do you feel the need to project your inadequacies onto others?
Is it the only way you pretend to yourself that you are better than them?

The MPPC acts like a normal mirror and Sagnac interferometry is obtained.
You have just been caught plain lying.
No, I haven't.
You have just been caught displaying extreme dishonesty.

You were discussing a FOC, using it as evidence that you can have a Sagnac formula without area.
I pointed out that they are fundametnally different to a FOG.
And how do you respond?
By a quote comparing FOGs, to one with phase conjugate mirrors.

And what formula is provided by your source for such a system with phase conjugate mirrors?
The key part is:
4*pi*(R1*L1+R2*L2)*omega/(lambda*c).
Now, the only way to convert this to a velocity of the beam is if the 2 coils are rotating about their centre, in which case omega*R=v.
But that isn't what we are discussing so such a conversion would be incorrect.
We are discussing it rotating about a point away from the centre.

There are multiple loops in the coil.
In fact, the number of loops is easy to calculate from the radius and total length, as l=n*(2*pi*r).
So we can substitute that in to the formula above and get this:
4*pi*(2*pi*R1*n1*R1+2*pi*R2*n2*R2)*omega/(lambda*c)
And then simplify a bit, by noting pi*r^2 is the area.
4*pi*(2*n1*A1+2*n2*A2)*omega/(lambda*c)
Then if we make it comparable to the gyros we are discussing, where the loops are cocentric, we end up with:
4*pi*2*(n1+n2)*A*omega/(lambda*c)

So this formula, which is based upon just simple substitution has what in it?
An AREA and an ANGULAR VELOCITY!

There is no linear velocity in this formula.
The only way to get one in a simple manner is if you have both loops concentric and have it rotate about the centre of the loop.
That is because the tangential velocity is given by r*omega, where r is the distance from the centre of rotation, not the radius of the loop.

So even then, the formula equates to one based upon an area and angular velocity.


What are you going to do now?
Act sanely and accept defeat, or claim another "refutation" which never happened?

If you don't get the same number, it means you screwed up.
You are trolling the upper forums.
The statement refers to a single formula, applied in different references.
Not to two different formulas.
No, the statement applies to Stoke's theorem, which shows there are 2 equivalent ways to derive the value, either going based upon a line integral or based upon an area integral.

Again, do you actually understand Stoke's theorem?

If you end up with 2 formulae with different values, i.e. they produce different numbers, Stoke's theorem guarantees that you screwed up.
One is much larger than the other
That means you screwed up.
Stoke's theorem guarantees that the numbers will be the same.
If you get different numbers you screwed up.

CALTECH HAS PROVIDED TWO SEPARATE EFFECT/TWO SEPARATE FORMULAS FOR THE SAME INTERFEROMETER.
Where?
Caltech also fully accepts that Earth is round, and orbiting the sun.
That sure seems like it agrees with me, not you.
Are you going to admit that you claiming Earth is flat is wrong?
If not, perhaps you should stop repeatedly appealing to authorities you clearly don't understand.

If you want to pretend they agree with you, find a paper where they are clearly stating there are 2 fundamentally different formulas which produce different values for the exact same interferometer with the exact same rotation.

*

sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2020, 01:03:23 PM »
There are multiple loops in the coil.
In fact, the number of loops is easy to calculate from the radius and total length, as l=n*(2*pi*r).
So we can substitute that in to the formula above and get this:
4*pi*(2*pi*R1*n1*R1+2*pi*R2*n2*R2)*omega/(lambda*c)
And then simplify a bit, by noting pi*r^2 is the area.
4*pi*(2*n1*A1+2*n2*A2)*omega/(lambda*c)
Then if we make it comparable to the gyros we are discussing, where the loops are cocentric, we end up with:
4*pi*2*(n1+n2)*A*omega/(lambda*c)

So this formula, which is based upon just simple substitution has what in it?
An AREA and an ANGULAR VELOCITY!

There is no linear velocity in this formula.


Your readers are not amused by your worthless try to bamboozle them.

In most debates, it is the contention of some physicists that for a circular coil with N turns, there will be a term featuring the area in the SAGNAC EFFECT formula; then N would be multiplied by the circumference of the circular coil and by the radius, even though there is no area at all, just a segment light path.

However, this is completely wrong.

The N turns term is multiplied by the velocity and the length of the fiber coil.

Professor R. Wang, world's foremost expert in FOC/FOG, explains:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609235.pdf





This is the correct expression for the SAGNAC EFFECT formula for FOC/FOG interferometers:

Δt = 2VL/c2

L = N x l

V = R x Ω

R is not multiplied by (N x l) at all: the velocity (V = R x Ω) is multiplied by L (L = N x l).


Except people have done just that.

They haven't. They have derived the CORIOLIS FORMULA, not the SAGNAC FORMULA.

A huge difference.

Try to find a single paper in a reputable journal which says that for a rotating ring interferometer there are 2 separate effects acting on the light, the Sagnac effect and the Coriolis effect, which produce a different shift. Not one showing how you can derive the Sagnac effect from the Coriolis effect or claiming the Sagnac effect is actually just the Coriolis effect.

I have already done that, you are not paying attention.






https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.



NO, THAT IS THE CORIOLIS EFFECT FORMULA!

In the next paper, they derive the correct SAGNAC EFFECT FORMULA WITHOUT AN AREA!

My derivation remains unchallenged.

You derived the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula.

As for unchallenged, your arguments have been thrashed thoroughly here.

Stoke's theorem guarantees that the numbers will be the same.

NO.

They can't be the same for the interferometer located away from the center of rotation.

Here is the R/L factor:




Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2020, 02:01:31 PM »
Your readers are not amused by your worthless try to bamboozle them.
Good thing I'm not trying to.
We are not impressed by your pathetic dismissals and bait and switch BS.

The N turns term is multiplied by the velocity and the length of the fiber coil.
Again, the formula provided by the paper you cited shows you are wrong.

The formula is equivalent to one containing an area and angular velocity.

If you want to use velocity instead you will need to know the radius from the centre of rotation and do a complex line integral.
It is not a simple case of multiplying the angular velocity by the radius of the loop, or pretending there is only one velocity for the entire system.

Again, your own citations, support me, not you.

providing a citation for a FOG rotating about its centre, where then the 2 radii are equal, doesn't help your case at all.

Go and find a citation which claims the Sagnac effect for a simple ring interferometer rotating about a point outside it, is based upon the tangential velocity of that rotation.

I have already done that, you are not paying attention.
No, you haven't, and you aren't even doing that now.
Instead you are cutting and pasting from multiple sources which you probably don't understand to try and pretend you have a case.
Go do what I aksed, or stop appealing to authorities that you reject and provide a derivation yourself, preferably from first principles.

NO, THAT IS THE CORIOLIS EFFECT FORMULA!
Then why does it clearly state that it is the Sagnac shift?
Is it because the 2 are the same?

As for unchallenged, your arguments have been thrashed thoroughly here.
No, you have pathetically dismissed them, but are yet to show a single problem with them.

Stoke's theorem guarantees that the numbers will be the same.
NO.
They can't be the same for the interferometer located away from the center of rotation.
Again, THEY MUST BE!
You lying and sticking in a factor which doesn't exist in Stokes theorem doesn't magically change reality.
It just shows you have no integrity.

Stoke's theorem guarantees that they MUST be the same. If they aren't you failed.

*

sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2020, 10:47:24 PM »
You have been reduced to total silence.

In most debates, it is the contention of some physicists that for a circular coil with N turns, there will be a term featuring the area in the SAGNAC EFFECT formula; then N would be multiplied by the circumference of the circular coil and by the radius, even though there is no area at all, just a segment light path.

However, this is completely wrong.

The N turns term is multiplied by the velocity and the length of the fiber coil.

Professor R. Wang, world's foremost expert in FOC/FOG, explains:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0609/0609235.pdf




This is the correct expression for the SAGNAC EFFECT formula for FOC/FOG interferometers:

Δt = 2VL/c2

L = N x l

V = R x Ω

R is not multiplied by (N x l) at all: the velocity (V = R x Ω) is multiplied by L (L = N x l).


Go and find a citation which claims the Sagnac effect for a simple ring interferometer rotating about a point outside it, is based upon the tangential velocity of that rotation.

Not any reference, but one coming from the JET PROPULSION LABORATORY.


https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).


Then why does it clearly state that it is the Sagnac shift?

Because of the confusion created by Albert Michelson in 1925, when he claimed that his formula is the SAGNAC EFFECT equation.

But Michelson derived the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula.

The calculations provided for LISA prove that a light interferometer, located away from the center of rotation, will ALWAYS be subjected to two EFFECTS: CORIOLIS and SAGNAC.

Stoke's theorem guarantees that they MUST be the same.

This new situation requires the R/L factor evidenced by the calculations put forth for LISA: an interferometer located away from the center of rotation. Now, the R/L factor balances out the two formulas derived from Stokes' theorem.



In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.

This work is organized as follows: in section 2, we make an estimate of Sagnac phase
for individual laser beams of LISA by taking realistic orbital motion. Here we show that, in general, the residual laser noise because of Sagnac phase is much larger than earlier estimates.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The computations carried out by Dr. R.K. Nayak (over ten papers published on the subject) and Dr. J.Y. Vinet (Member of the LISA International Science Team), and published by prestigious scientific journals and by ESA, show that the orbital Sagnac is 30 times greater than the rotational Sagnac for LISA.



Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

"the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized."

This fact, the R/L factor, has to be incorporated into the Stokes formula which guarantees TWO EQUATIONS for each interferometer.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The formula is 2VL/c.


The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.

The formula used for the ORBITAL SAGNAC (difference in path lengths) is 2VL/c, V = RΩ.


My references are the very best: CALTECH and ESA.

They prove that there will ALWAYS be two effects to deal with: CORIOLIS and SAGNAC.

TWO FORMULAS.

ALWAYS.

One is much greater than the other.

RLGs register only the CORIOLIS EFFECT, but never the SAGNAC EFFECT.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 11:45:25 PM by sandokhan »

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  • 4989
Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2020, 12:06:02 AM »
RLGs register only the CORIOLIS EFFECT, but never the SAGNAC EFFECT.

I'm not sure why we have to keep going over this, but these folks disagree with your findings. According to them the Sagnac effect is indeed registered by an RLG:

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
K. U. Schreiber, A. Velikoseltsev, M. Rothacher

The Effect of Polar Motion on Ring Laser Gyroscopes
In an active laser cavity, as is the case for our instruments, lasing is achieved when an integral number of wavelengths circumscribe the ring perimeter. Since the path length is slightly different for the co-rotating and the counter-rotating beams the lasing frequencies are also slightly different in each case and the beat frequency of the two laser beams, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0406156.pdf

Stick to terrestrial RLG's, not FOG, not LISA, but RLG's. Clearly, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable despite what you claim.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2020, 12:17:16 AM »
FOG, PCMs, RLGs, LISA are all light interferometers.

SAME FORMULAS APPLIES TO ALL OF THEM.

That was back in 2004.

Now, in 2018, things have changed dramatically.


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The ORBITAL SAGNAC calculated at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory amounts to an admitted difference in path lengths of 1,000 kilometers.

The difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac is 14.4 kilometers:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0306125.pdf (Dr. Daniel Shaddock, Jet Propulsion Laboratory)

https://gwic.ligo.org/thesisprize/2011/yu_thesis.pdf (pg. 63)

Therefore the difference in path lengths for the ORBITAL SAGNAC is some 60 times greater than the difference in path lengths for the rotational Sagnac, according to these calculations.


TWO DIFFERENT FORMULAS.

One (CORIOLIS EFFECT) is proportional to the area of the interferometer.

The other (SAGNAC EFFECT) is proportional to the velocity of the light beams.


RING LASER GYROSCOPES RECORD ONLY THE FORMULA WHICH FEATURES THE AREA/ANGULAR VELOCITY, THAT IS, THE CORIOLIS EFFECT.

The much larger SAGNAC EFFECT is not recorded.


Make sure you understand these very important words coming from CALTECH:

very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others

The paper referenced by you is obsolete: the new data shows that there are TWO FORMULAS TO DEAL WITH: CORIOLIS AND SAGNAC.

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  • 4989
Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2020, 12:38:23 AM »
FOG, PCMs, RLGs, LISA are all light interferometers.

SAME FORMULAS APPLIES TO ALL OF THEM.

That was back in 2004.

Now, in 2018, things have changed dramatically.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km....

The paper referenced by you is obsolete: the new data shows that there are TWO FORMULAS TO DEAL WITH: CORIOLIS AND SAGNAC.

Like I referenced before, you're mixing apples and oranges. LISA and the study of Solar System Barycentric (SSB) does not change the findings regarding terrestrial (earthbound) RLG's. Two totally different studies. We're talking earth rotation on its axis, not SSB. So stop citing things that are irrelevant. What is relevant to earth's rotation on its axis is:

Direct measurement of diurnal polar motion by ring laser gyroscopes
K. U. Schreiber, A. Velikoseltsev, M. Rothacher

The Effect of Polar Motion on Ring Laser Gyroscopes
In an active laser cavity, as is the case for our instruments, lasing is achieved when an integral number of wavelengths circumscribe the ring perimeter. Since the path length is slightly different for the co-rotating and the counter-rotating beams the lasing frequencies are also slightly different in each case and the beat frequency of the two laser beams, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0406156.pdf

Your only argument thus far is the above paper is from 2004. I think you can do better than that, don't you? If publish date were an issue, I could throw out 90% of all of your citations. So try and stick to earth and what's relevant.

Stick to terrestrial RLG's, not FOG, not LISA, but RLG's. Clearly, the Sagnac frequency is readily measurable despite what you claim.

No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: The earth rotation
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2020, 12:46:25 AM »
No.

Multiple arguments, amply evidenced throughtout these years during the debates.

The paper you presented displays a formula which features the area. That is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula.

If you want the SAGNAC EFFECT, you need a formula which DOES NOT feature the area.

Can you comprehend this much?

SSB, ECI does not matter in the least.

SAME FORMULA APPLIES.

Do you see a different formula being applied by ESA/CALTECH? Of course not.

Your silly argument does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Stick to Earth?

Ok.

Let us now imagine that the Earth is the size of the path of the LISA SPACE ANTENNA.

That is, now the LISA interferometer will be located on the surface of that Earth.

What do you have now? BOTH CORIOLIS AND SAGNAC.

The interferometer will be subjected to both the CORIOLIS and to the SAGNAC effects.

TWO FORMULAS TO DEAL WITH.