There is no way it's all random luck... impossible

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 16, 2019, 07:24:37 AM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 05:12:34 AM

String theory says God is outside cause and effect so he could just exist

Oh, my.  I'd love to see the theoretical physics book that comes from.

Probably the same one that claims the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12

No half decent book says that. A numberphile video said that because it was a bit confused.

Quote from: John Davis on October 16, 2019, 10:45:46 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 16, 2019, 07:24:37 AM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 05:12:34 AM

String theory says God is outside cause and effect so he could just exist

Oh, my.  I'd love to see the theoretical physics book that comes from.

Probably the same one that claims the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12

No half decent book says that. A numberphile video said that because it was a bit confused.

I believe the numberphile video cited the textbook that is in use today. Aside from that, obvious we aren't talking about half decent physics texts .

So god gave you a health baby while he gives other special need babies or just kills their baby?

Do I have it right?

God gives all the kids at children’s hospital cancer?

Do I have it right?

God built the original program, set the rules and stepped back to let the program play out. That is the only way for it to happen with free will.

Anomalies are glitches in the program...now if we caused them or they are mistakes depends on ideology.

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 05:12:34 AM

String theory says God is outside cause and effect so he could just exist.

Huh? What?

Quote

Comparing the two, God makes more sense. It is more simple and explains the obvious intelligent design we see when our eyes are open or closed.  Then when you add  nonsensical evolution from inanimate material to get where we are now....just seals the case for me.

Know what's even "simpler"? The God of the Quran. None of that trinity nonsense. Just a straightforward God.

But now that I think about it, it's a very good idea. It's the simplest way to solve any problem! In fact I can solve pretty much any major issue in science that way. Example: how do we explain why gravitation is the way it is? Because Allah wants it to be like that.

See? Easy.

I know you give little shits about an honest discussion, though I will answer a couple things here.

String theory proposes multiple dimensions, with time being the 4th dimension. Anything above the 4th dimension is away from the effects of time. So let's put God in the 10th, He is not effected by time, so there is no cause and effect. Something does not have to create Him, He can simply just exist.

This also solves the free will conundrum. How can God be all powerful and us have free will? Either he is not all powerful or we truly don't have free will. Under the hypothesis of string theory, all of our decisions and actions take place in a dimension under where God sits. So He can see every decision we could possibly make and the ones we will end up making all at the same time without effecting our free will.

As for simple...it's not simple it's just common sense. Everything around us including us screams design, not random.

As for your quip about gravity, who knows. I forgot the name of the mathematician that proposed equations that showed we needed the entire seemingly endless universe as we know it to create just one habitable planet like Earth.

We have a pathetic knowledge of life compared to reality

Citation needed that this hypothetical 10th dimension exists outside of time.

Who or what taught babies that if they are under water, to hold their breath? They have no idea of what holding their breath means or why it's a good idea to do it if submerged in water.

Can science explain built in instincts? They go far beyond 'chemical reactions and processes'. How is intelligence transferred? Of course it's necessary for survival but the act requires a learnt trait. Keep in mind, each cell of your body has no idea about life or death. Together, the whole human (or animal) knows unique to them quirks. They don't have communication on the same level we do to pass on knowledge. Some animals aren't even reared by a parent.

If the turtle born under the sand doesn't go out to sea - it's fate of death is certain. Why aren't there some that go the other way and into the trees?

Who or what taught babies that if they are under water, to hold their breath? They have no idea of what holding their breath means or why it's a good idea to do it if submerged in water.

Can science explain built in instincts? They go far beyond 'chemical reactions and processes'. How is intelligence transferred? Of course it's necessary for survival but the act requires a learnt trait. Keep in mind, each cell of your body has no idea about life or death. Together, the whole human (or animal) knows unique to them quirks. They don't have communication on the same level we do to pass on knowledge. Some animals aren't even reared by a parent.

If the turtle born under the sand doesn't go out to sea - it's fate of death is certain. Why aren't there some that go the other way and into the trees?

I could go in for ages listing amazing things such as this that scream design over random.

Though out of all the amazing things, I think the biggest card there is (in my opinion) is consciousness and being sentient.

Citation needed that this hypothetical 10th dimension exists outside of time.

Basic string theory dumbass. Don't act like you want an actual honest conversation.

God built the original program, set the rules and stepped back to let the program play out. That is the only way for it to happen with free will.

So, god is randomness?

First, instinct: How does a bacteria know to eat?  It doesn't.  It simply consumes what its cell allows in to metabolize then divides when its ready.  Its all just dna coding.

Same with other instinctual behaviors.  Dna coded neural connections.  Babies can swallow, move their limbs, hold their breath, etc... And its all hardwired into our brain.  Why?  Alot of trial and error over millions and millions of years.  Every day we learn more and more about how DNA works and how things grow as they do.  Its not magic or design, its just our ignorance.

And everything looks like design if you can see a pattern.  Our solar system is perfectly balanced.  Design?  No, just physics mixed with "if it didn't work, it wouldn't be here".

Just look at a star map of constellations.  We made shapes in the sky.  Shapes out of pure random dots at night.

Or go looking at cloud shapes.  Think God makes that one cloud look like a horse?  No, we just think that because we are super good at pattern recognition.  Even if the pattern isn't really there.

As for string theory:
Sure, but its irrelevant.   How God exists outside of time doesn't matter.  How god exists always doesn't matter.  What matters is if God exists as we think he is.  And so far, no one knows.

There are MANY different Theological "explanations" of how life came to be. If you have nothing but faith to go on, you can randomly choose any theological version and be as correct as the next random version.

Science is a process that does not pretend to know everything.
So yes, the process we call science will never allow us to know everything.
However that does not automatically mean that you can just fill in the space with any old theory and say thats how it is now.

To admit you dont know at this point is probably the only correct answer.
But its fun to try and postulate

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 02:48:11 PM

God built the original program, set the rules and stepped back to let the program play out. That is the only way for it to happen with free will.

So, god is randomness?

When did I say that? I think exact rigid order would be the only description.

First, instinct: How does a bacteria know to eat?  It doesn't.  It simply consumes what its cell allows in to metabolize then divides when its ready.  Its all just dna coding.

Same with other instinctual behaviors.  Dna coded neural connections.  Babies can swallow, move their limbs, hold their breath, etc... And its all hardwired into our brain.  Why?  Alot of trial and error over millions and millions of years.  Every day we learn more and more about how DNA works and how things grow as they do.  Its not magic or design, its just our ignorance.

And everything looks like design if you can see a pattern.  Our solar system is perfectly balanced.  Design?  No, just physics mixed with "if it didn't work, it wouldn't be here".

Just look at a star map of constellations.  We made shapes in the sky.  Shapes out of pure random dots at night.

Everything you have posted screams intelligent design here.

To admit you dont know at this point is probably the only correct answer.
But its fun to try and postulate

I have said before, I know my faith in God is just that, a faith. Sure I can state many things that point to an intelligent creator (leaving out any sort of religious book or human witness) in my eyes. However, until there is an experiment to confirm or an angel sitting next to me can't say for sure besides faith.

I am fine with that.... However, why do  evolution believers get to say they are 100 percent right, this is what happened and anyone that doesn't agree are morons and beneath them? Especially when they have no more to go on than what I do?

Quote from: MaNaeSWolf on October 16, 2019, 10:29:22 PM

To admit you dont know at this point is probably the only correct answer.
But its fun to try and postulate

I have said before, I know my faith in God is just that, a faith. Sure I can state many things that point to an intelligent creator (leaving out any sort of religious book or human witness) in my eyes. However, until there is an experiment to confirm or an angel sitting next to me can't say for sure besides faith.

I am fine with that.... However, why do  evolution believers get to say they are 100 percent right, this is what happened and anyone that doesn't agree are morons and beneath them? Especially when they have no more to go on than what I do?

I was actually more talking about abiogenisis, how life got going in the first place.
We have some theories, some better than others. But saying God did it is about as correct as anything science has on the matter at this point.

Evolution is harder to argue, you dont need faith to believe in evolution as there are so many observations that show it to be true.
Its the system that creates order. The starting rules that biology follows if you must.
We can directly observe it as well.
The process we call evolution is why your first baby wont be genetically equivalent to either you or his mother.
Which is a good thing, otherwise humanity would not have survived the first plague.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on October 16, 2019, 08:55:00 PM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 02:48:11 PM

God built the original program, set the rules and stepped back to let the program play out. That is the only way for it to happen with free will.

So, god is randomness?

When did I say that? I think exact rigid order would be the only description.

You just said the program includes free will.
Ergo, undetermined outcome.

RANDOM.

Otherwise . . . PREDETERMINED.


There comes a time when you need to make up your mind.

Quote from: Pezevenk on October 16, 2019, 01:12:04 PM

Quote from: John Davis on October 16, 2019, 10:45:46 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on October 16, 2019, 07:24:37 AM

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 05:12:34 AM

String theory says God is outside cause and effect so he could just exist

Oh, my.  I'd love to see the theoretical physics book that comes from.

Probably the same one that claims the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12

No half decent book says that. A numberphile video said that because it was a bit confused.

I believe the numberphile video cited the textbook that is in use today. Aside from that, obvious we aren't talking about half decent physics texts .

I don't remember what it cited exactly but I am pretty sure it was a misrepresentation. I'm sure the textbook did say that the Riemann zeta function for -1 is -1/12. That is different from saying that 1+2+3+... is equal to -1/12. The numberphile video conflated the two.

I know you give little shits about an honest discussion, though I will answer a couple things here.

String theory proposes multiple dimensions, with time being the 4th dimension. Anything above the 4th dimension is away from the effects of time. So let's put God in the 10th, He is not effected by time, so there is no cause and effect. Something does not have to create Him, He can simply just exist.

One thing I really like about this is that you reject evolution because durr no evidence but string theory is a-ok to you lol.

Also dimensions are not some place you can be in. They're not parallel universes or whatever. You have a sci fi understanding of physics.

This also solves the free will conundrum. How can God be all powerful and us have free will? Either he is not all powerful or we truly don't have free will. Under the hypothesis of string theory, all of our decisions and actions take place in a dimension under where God sits. So He can see every decision we could possibly make and the ones we will end up making all at the same time without effecting our free will.

This doesn't even solve the conundrum but whatever.

As for simple...it's not simple it's just common sense. Everything around us including us screams design, not random.

Everything about your posts screams to me shithead, so where does that put us?

As for your quip about gravity, who knows. I forgot the name of the mathematician that proposed equations that showed we needed the entire seemingly endless universe as we know it to create just one habitable planet like Earth.

You gotta stop learning science from religious cranks. And I don't even know what this has to do with gravitation.

Everything you have posted screams intelligent design here.

To you it might, but you have already admitted you like simple explanations and you have faith in an old desert religion and incredulity.

Me? I prefer the complexity and beauty of raw nature; I see no design other than stuff fitting to their environs because that environment shaped their descendants accordingly.

The incredulity argument of “but look at all the perfectly lined up stuff that has to happen” is flawed (for me) because once self-replication starts it has had almost innumerable instances to adapt over a time scale people seem not to be able to comprehend.

The best explanation I have come across is, if you take the time life has existed on earth as the span of your arms, then the whole history of Homo sapiens would disappear with one stroke of a nail file.

I won’t bang on much more as I won’t convince you of anything and for me the proof is overwhelming, we live in different worlds, I just happen to think mine has more beauty but unfortunately, zero interest in whether we survive in it or not.   

I don't see anyone here arguing for a current religious ideology as the 'correct' way.

Agnosticism is more likely what is being discussed. In this mindset, no one is following any religious doctrine however they are humble enough to know that they don't know. They are open to the possibility of the existence of a God, creator, higher power/being of sorts, or equally open to the possibility that everything was all random. In the infinite expanse of the universe, it stands to reason that ideal conditions for life arising somewhere will happen.

There will come a time where human knowledge far surpasses anything we can dream of now, and our look back on ourselves in the 21st century might be amused at the things we believed about evolution or the nature of the universe.

We think of the universe as being 13.8 billion years old. That may only be this iteration. This universe may have spawned from a previous universe that succumbed to heat death. It may have happened an infinite amount of times. It will happen again. This universe may also be one of an infinite amount of universes existing concurrently (multiverse).

I dont care if everything we are seeing/doing is really the product of a Boltzmann Brain inside a cold and dead universe. That Boltzmann Brain for all intents and purposes would be God

On the subject of God, I think our definition of it is ridiculous. Why does the creator of the universe have to be both omnipotent and omniscient? Why must it be able to relate to Humans. Why do we believe in an infinite universe it must take action here on Earth of all places (oh look that child has cancer - God is so cruel to let that happen).

If our universe is the product of some alien geek in another universe smashing particles in a super massive particle accelerator together in a lab, then that alien geek is God. Whether by design or accident or even ignorance, we owe that geek our existence.

Quote from: Lorddave on October 16, 2019, 09:51:04 PM

First, instinct: How does a bacteria know to eat?  It doesn't.  It simply consumes what its cell allows in to metabolize then divides when its ready.  Its all just dna coding.

Same with other instinctual behaviors.  Dna coded neural connections.  Babies can swallow, move their limbs, hold their breath, etc... And its all hardwired into our brain.  Why?  Alot of trial and error over millions and millions of years.  Every day we learn more and more about how DNA works and how things grow as they do.  Its not magic or design, its just our ignorance.

And everything looks like design if you can see a pattern.  Our solar system is perfectly balanced.  Design?  No, just physics mixed with "if it didn't work, it wouldn't be here".

Just look at a star map of constellations.  We made shapes in the sky.  Shapes out of pure random dots at night.

Everything you have posted screams intelligent design here.

Part of that is because you haven't seen anything more than the end result.
Because you sort of can't see anything else due to the time frame.  You never see the failures.  The dead ends.  The slow change from scales to feathers.  Hell, you didn't even see the change from full body hair to little body hair. 

Like look at the Grand Canyon.  Was it designed or did water just flow that way and carve out the stone?

. . . Was it designed or did water just flow that way and carve out the stone?

Land raised, water level stayed the same.
The rocks got cut in half. Water always wins.

String theory proposes multiple dimensions, with time being the 4th dimension. Anything above the 4th dimension is away from the effects of time. So let's put God in the 10th, He is not effected by time, so there is no cause and effect. Something does not have to create Him, He can simply just exist.

I think you are into the "not even wrong" category here.  Where do you get this stuff from?    Here, have a read of what string theory actually says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

I was actually more talking about abiogenisis, how life got going in the first place.
We have some theories, some better than others. But saying God did it is about as correct as anything science has on the matter at this point.

Evolution is harder to argue, you dont need faith to believe in evolution as there are so many observations that show it to be true.
Its the system that creates order. The starting rules that biology follows if you must.
We can directly observe it as well.
The process we call evolution is why your first baby wont be genetically equivalent to either you or his mother.
Which is a good thing, otherwise humanity would not have survived the first plague.

Yes, we adapt as a species. However, that is the only thing we have proof of or have observed. Something needed to set the base programing to build off of.

Quote

Everything you have posted screams intelligent design here.

To you it might, but you have already admitted you like simple explanations and you have faith in an old desert religion and incredulity.

Me? I prefer the complexity and beauty of raw nature; I see no design other than stuff fitting to their environs because that environment shaped their descendants accordingly.

The incredulity argument of “but look at all the perfectly lined up stuff that has to happen” is flawed (for me) because once self-replication starts it has had almost innumerable instances to adapt over a time scale people seem not to be able to comprehend.

The best explanation I have come across is, if you take the time life has existed on earth as the span of your arms, then the whole history of Homo sapiens would disappear with one stroke of a nail file.

I won’t bang on much more as I won’t convince you of anything and for me the proof is overwhelming, we live in different worlds, I just happen to think mine has more beauty but unfortunately, zero interest in whether we survive in it or not.   

I see beauty in the world, not sure where you get that I don't.

I am interested to the fact you see more beauty in random luck over there being a creator.

Part of that is because you haven't seen anything more than the end result.
Because you sort of can't see anything else due to the time frame.  You never see the failures.  The dead ends.  The slow change from scales to feathers.  Hell, you didn't even see the change from full body hair to little body hair. 

Like look at the Grand Canyon.  Was it designed or did water just flow that way and carve out the stone?

Again, you are describing faith...

Why is my faith less valid than yours?

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 16, 2019, 02:48:11 PM

String theory proposes multiple dimensions, with time being the 4th dimension. Anything above the 4th dimension is away from the effects of time. So let's put God in the 10th, He is not effected by time, so there is no cause and effect. Something does not have to create Him, He can simply just exist.

I think you are into the "not even wrong" category here.  Where do you get this stuff from?    Here, have a read of what string theory actually says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

You are a fucking moron...I mean for real. I know I asked in the thread in angry ranting if you ever provided anything of substance, I knew it was a silly question. I also know your entire point is trying to insult me to help with your own pathetic failures and insecurities, but you always make yourself look dumber in the process.


"In bosonic string theory, spacetime is 26-dimensional, while in superstring theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-theory it is 11-dimensional. "

That is directly from wiki you posted. YOU need to learn string theory before you pop your mouth off. I know you won't read anything, so maybe watch some of  Gabriele Veneziano's videos on YouTube.

He never said the point was to prove a God or if he believed in it. Simply if there was one, it would be in the last dimension.

Something needed to set the base programing to build off of.

The base programming was most probably RNA which is simple enough that it could have been created by natural occurrences. But how exactly that happened is currently unknown. So God is as good an answer as any. But this is abiogenisis.

Yes, we adapt as a species. However, that is the only thing we have proof of or have observed.

And if you continue the progression of adaption you eventually get something different from what you started.
This is the process of evolution.

You believe a species can adapt, but then for some reason stops at some point?

And we lots of different evidence which all points to the same thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

Quote from: Lorddave on October 17, 2019, 01:54:45 AM

Part of that is because you haven't seen anything more than the end result.
Because you sort of can't see anything else due to the time frame.  You never see the failures.  The dead ends.  The slow change from scales to feathers.  Hell, you didn't even see the change from full body hair to little body hair. 

Like look at the Grand Canyon.  Was it designed or did water just flow that way and carve out the stone?

Again, you are describing faith...

Why is my faith less valid than yours?

We have bones, fossil records, and some experiments with bacteria.

Yes, we adapt as a species.

Do you honestly believe that if your family, et al, gets chased by wolfs for a million years
They would grow wings on their feet to escape attack?

No, organisms don't adapt.

Why do you keep saying that?
That is an ignorant colloquialism.

Organisms do not adapt.
Environmental conditions change.


Let's give you a room where you breed mosquitoes.
Every week you go and kill every mosquito flying in the bottom half of the room.

Eventually you have a shit load high flying mosquitoes.


None of them adapted, they were selectively breed.

By conditions.

That is how reality creates evolution.




That's also why we have some ugly dogs.   

Why are (most) humans born with a fear of snakes? How are we programmed to believe before we are 'told' about snakes that they can hurt/kill us?

Yes we evolved alongside them and they have always been dangerous to us but no one 'told' me. I just knew. Where in the Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thymine (AGCT) sequence is the instruction for 'fear of snakes'. What combination of letters equals that? Obviously it is advantageous to us to have a healthy fear of snakes, lest we go up to one and try to play with it. But this isn't evolution or adaptation etc. This is something ingrained in programming. Can a sequence of amino acids really 'inform' an intelligence before something is even 'aware' of a specific instruction? Like this is what a snake looks like and it is bad and can kill you so stay away.

Or could there be something deeper at play

Or could there be something deeper at play

You're a pussy?   

Thing that always makes me smile is the phrase 'Intelligent Design'

I have a snag list for my designer 

Thing that always makes me smile is the phrase 'Intelligent Design'

I have a snag list for my designer 

Whether or not there was an entity behind it, however you look at it, our universe is 'intelligently designed' in a way that works for us.

For all you know, we are living in a simulation by a race orbiting a black hole at the end of their universes useful life. We could be living in 'their' design.

Why are (most) humans born with a fear of snakes? How are we programmed to believe before we are 'told' about snakes that they can hurt/kill us?

Yes we evolved alongside them and they have always been dangerous to us but no one 'told' me. I just knew. Where in the Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thymine (AGCT) sequence is the instruction for 'fear of snakes'. What combination of letters equals that? Obviously it is advantageous to us to have a healthy fear of snakes, lest we go up to one and try to play with it. But this isn't evolution or adaptation etc. This is something ingrained in programming. Can a sequence of amino acids really 'inform' an intelligence before something is even 'aware' of a specific instruction? Like this is what a snake looks like and it is bad and can kill you so stay away.

Or could there be something deeper at play

Why do you think these things cant be programmed by your DNA before you are even born?
Your heart beats, you breathe, digest and know how to do all kinds of things from birth. All creatures do this.
Yes it is programmed in, from a programming language called DNA.

We have bones, fossil records, and some experiments with bacteria.

There is nothing strong with fossil records. People just see what they want when using that as evidence, no different than a creationist seeing what they want with their evidence.

All faith based.

As for the bacteria experiments. The longest one conducted was 20 some years and I forget how many millions of generations. No new genetic code was added, so that was a bust for the evolution we are debating.

Quote from: Bom Tishop on October 17, 2019, 02:25:50 AM

Yes, we adapt as a species.

Do you honestly believe that if your family, et al, gets chased by wolfs for a million years
They would grow wings on their feet to escape attack?

No, organisms don't adapt.

Why do you keep saying that?
That is an ignorant colloquialism.

Organisms do not adapt.
Environmental conditions change.


Let's give you a room where you breed mosquitoes.
Every week you go and kill every mosquito flying in the bottom half of the room.

Eventually you have a shit load high flying mosquitoes.


None of them adapted, they were selectively breed.

By conditions.

That is how reality creates evolution.




That's also why we have some ugly dogs.   

Well considering we actually of empirical evidence of species adapting, that is actually something we don't need faith for.

I will leave that alone, what you are saying would require billions of species being planted here and the ones that survive continue on.

I would say all these species being planted here at once would be a monster amount of evidence for a god.

Quote from: Shifter on October 17, 2019, 03:03:19 AM

Why are (most) humans born with a fear of snakes? How are we programmed to believe before we are 'told' about snakes that they can hurt/kill us?

Yes we evolved alongside them and they have always been dangerous to us but no one 'told' me. I just knew. Where in the Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thymine (AGCT) sequence is the instruction for 'fear of snakes'. What combination of letters equals that? Obviously it is advantageous to us to have a healthy fear of snakes, lest we go up to one and try to play with it. But this isn't evolution or adaptation etc. This is something ingrained in programming. Can a sequence of amino acids really 'inform' an intelligence before something is even 'aware' of a specific instruction? Like this is what a snake looks like and it is bad and can kill you so stay away.

Or could there be something deeper at play

Why do you think these things cant be programmed by your DNA before you are even born?
Your heart beats, you breathe, digest and know how to do all kinds of things from birth. All creatures do this.
Yes it is programmed in, from a programming language called DNA.

It probably was.... Which having this programming is another piece of proof for intelligent design