Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?

So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night??? 

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.

The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.

I'm about a third of the way through. I've been watching it a bit at a time so my brain doesn't suffer this trauma all at once.

My first question is this: How did someone this stupid figure out how to post a Youtube video???

I have several more, but I can't express them without excessive profanity. Perhaps when I have recovered.

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 12, 2019, 06:05:54 PM

So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night??? 

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.

The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.

If you believe this idiot successfully explains the paradox, you are an idiot too.  Tom, the Southern Cross is a constellation that has been successfully used by sea going humans for centuries as a navigational aide.  Its location is critical in the process of both figuring out where you are and determining where you are going, especially for a vessel at sea that has no land in sight.  The FACT that it is due south, regardless of where you are in the southern hemisphere is the problem FE faces when it presents the Earth as being anything like the Gleason map.  At every spoke of longitude, at the "ring" that is Antarctica, in the night sky there is Sigma Octantis.  Any given night, at least two of those major longitudinal spokes are blanketed in darkness, with Sigma Octantis visible.  Guess what?  It only appears in one point to all observers; due south.  We don't see it repeating at every degree of longitude and simultaneously only visible in one location to every observer.  That is the paradox and what you have yet to explain.

Okay, I finished.

I don't have the words. It's like it was recorded by someone who has never actually seen a sky(nevermind a night sky) for more than three seconds at a time. Nothing made sense. Light changing direction for no other reason than they happen to be passing you? And somehow, they do that for everybody on Earth at the same time? And somehow, this is used as an explanation for the exact opposite happening with light from the stars? For that video to make less sense, it would have to be recorded in Apache and then played backwards. There's no way a rational person could accept that load of garbage and I pray that Tom Bishop posted it just to waste our time. Because the alternative....

...I need some alcohol.

The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

That does not explain why they are visible due south for everyone.
That is what you need to address.
That is what you have continued to avoid.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth

Yes, the "night" side, which during the southern winter can cover a very large angular span, over 180 degrees.
Yet for the entire duration of night, the south celestial pole remains due south.
This makes no sense for a FE.

And no, anti-crepuscular rays can't help here. They are parallel lines which appear to converge. You would need lines radiating outwards magically converging, which makes no sense at all.

Quote from: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 12, 2019, 06:05:54 PM

So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night??? 

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.

The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.

We can test if that video's theory is true by simply turning around.  If I'm in the northern hemisphere and look north, the stars are rotating correctly.  According to that video, if I turn towards the south on a flat Earth, the stars should suddenly be turning in the opposite direction.  This does not match reality and thus is not a good explanation.

Also, if the your argument is that the sky rotates around the Earth, then that also means people in the northern hemisphere would ALSO be able to see Sigma Octantis with a telescope, right?  On a flat Earth, distance would not matter with a powerful enough telescope.  As it is literally impossible for anyone north of a certain latitude to see Sigma Octantis, I can assume that the Earth is not flat. 

https://wiki.tfes.org/Southern_Celestial_Rotationü

Under the Monopole model P-Brane explains the counter-rotation of the stars as a consequence of perspective. The author uses the Sun's crepuscular rays as an example for how motion and perspective can seem to cause anti-rotations in two different directions, much like how spinning in an office chair and looking up and down can cause the appearance of two rotations in different directions.

So according to FE wiki the sky looks like looking up and down from a spinning earth, I mean chair. Not bad.

TomB, is the earth a flat disc with center around the north pole? 
Or is it a east west flatness?

https://wiki.tfes.org/Southern_Celestial_Rotationü

Quote

Under the Monopole model P-Brane explains the counter-rotation of the stars as a consequence of perspective. The author uses the Sun's crepuscular rays as an example for how motion and perspective can seem to cause anti-rotations in two different directions, much like how spinning in an office chair and looking up and down can cause the appearance of two rotations in different directions.

So according to FE wiki the sky looks like looking up and down from a spinning earth, I mean chair. Not bad.

A perfect explanation if southern stars were seen in the ground and not the sky.

There aren’t enough palms in the world to smash against my face in response to this.

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Yes, it occurs with parallel rays.
It doesn't occur with diverging rays, i.e. rays which actually diverge, spreading out from the centre in reality.

A rotating cardboard tube is more in line with the RE model, than the FE model.
What you need is a cardboard disk.
The cardboard tube has the rotation exactly as you would expect, appearing to rotate the same way as the cardboard tube. Looking to the north it appears to rotate one way, just like the cardboard tube. Looking to the south it appears to rotate the other way, just like the tube.

But that doesn't happen for your celestial disk.
What you need to do is have a disk above the head rotating. That doesn't reverse direction when you look north vs south.

So again, THIS DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT in any way.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2019, 12:58:08 PM

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

Which is pure nonsense.
Yes, distant elements appear to converge, but not to a tiny point after some finite distance.
If something sweeps across your vision, it sweeps across it, not remaining at a single point.
As we aren't discussing the size of it, perspective is irrelevant.

We are discussing its direction, and perspective cannot change that.

If something is to your right, directly right of you, perspective cannot magically make it appear in front of you.

The only explanation for the south celestial pole is that everyone in the south, looking to the south, is looking in basically the same direction when looking to the south celestial pole.

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Oh wow.  That video is an epic hot mess of nonsense.

TFES wiki really went with a P-Brane video for their citation?

To be fair to him, he’s at least trying to answer questions most flat earthers seem to avoid, but no.  This is not how perspective works.  Perspective is nothing but 3D geometry.  Change your position, and get a different view of an object.  Rays of light don’t magically change direction as they pass you, and you don’t see objects behind you, unless the light is reflected off something.

P-Brane seems to suggest that Southern Hemisphere stars are the Northern Hemisphere stars which for some mystical reason appear in the opposite direction of where they really are.  Even ignoring how bonkers that is, why are there completely different constellations?

You don’t seriously believe a word of that do you?

Hold up.
Hes using a different map!!!!

OP is usign a north pole centerd map.
TomBs ref video is using the east-west map.
Because you need a map with a north south equator capable of showing the different rotations.

The whole thing is a joke.

P-Brane

Peabrain

Get it?

Quote from: magcynic on October 13, 2019, 01:10:13 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2019, 12:58:08 PM

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

Except the distant objects aren't converging. They are spreading out across the entire night sky. Sigma Octanis might be at the point in which the sky appears to rotate(the South Celestial Pole), but the sky is still filled all the way around with stars. There's no convergence.

At enough southern latitude Sigma Octantis can be observed due south from opposite meridians at the same time. 

This happens for at least a few weeks during winter from South America / Australia and even longer from Antarctica with 6 months of continuous night.

FE never explain how is this possible in the FE map centered on the north pole.  They either ignore the issue or deny it happens.

Even p-brain video with all the perspective hocus pocus hasn't an answer for that. 

If any FE is still reading this topic, please explain what is the observable difference between polaris and sigma octantis, that makes you think one of them is at the center of the rotating skies and the other one is not.

Yes yes the mechanics of it all.
But why and how can tomB be promoting a different map???!!!
Come on TB!
What have you?

I have looked this up and this is testable.  On June 20 (winter solstice in the southern hemisphere) you can take a telescope to Santiago, Chile and Perth, Australia.  At 6:30pm in Perth you can see the constellation Octans (along with Sigma Octantis) in the sky due south and slightly east.  At 6:30am in Santiago (literally the same time), you can see Octans (along with Sigma Octantis) in the sky due south and slightly west.  On every proposed flat Earth map I've seen, these two observers (who are looking at the same set of stars at the same time on the same planet) would be looking in almost opposite directions.

Explain.

Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.

Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.

Very true.  I suppose I wanted to take the most extreme example I could find in order to make any potential explanation that much more absurd.

Quote from: markjo on October 14, 2019, 07:45:50 AM

Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.

Very true.  I suppose I wanted to take the most extreme example I could find in order to make any potential explanation that much more absurd.

If you want a really absurd explanation, ask Tom about his celestial gears model.

Quote from: magcynic on October 13, 2019, 01:10:13 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2019, 12:58:08 PM

No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

Tom, this is wild conjecture at best.  You are going to try and sell this when you have working examples of having to points of observation separated by nearly 12 time zones viewing the same star, in roughly the same direction.  The only phenomena at play is flipping stellar parallax, which is 100% expected when looking at a celestial object from opposing sides of the same planet.

This is a non-starter for FE, Mr. Bishop.  Unless, of course, you have some other insane explanation for us to consider.

But how can he be using a different map?   
What would these gears look like on the north pole map or is it impossible to animate?

What would these gears look like on the north pole map or is it impossible to animate?

It is impossible to animate as it requires the stars to be rotating in an axis which is parallel to the surface of Earth (at the point of observation).
For the NP map, the stars would need to be a single disc above the Earth.
The model used in the video requires Earth to be a cylinder or sphere or the like.

Exactly.
So how can tomB think this "solution" would pass?
Come on.

Exactly.
So how can tomB think this "solution" would pass?
Come on.

It doesn't pass which is probably why he hasn't been back here.  To be fair, what can you say at that point?  If you're that invested in a flat Earth, you just have to pretend you didn't see the comment or conversation continue. 

TomB uses the east-west map.
Johndavis uses a north map and a south map.
Based on these three projdction maps, yu two have basically made an ugly cube-cylinder shaped earth.
And if we account for distortion we conclude its spheriod.
So what shape is the earth, again?