The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2019, 01:06:56 PM »
Perhaps because the earth does not have legs? 'Rise up' is one of the definitions in the list you posted.

That's actually funny, how do you know the earth doesn't have legs? Have you looked at the under side of the earth?

I think there are other ways to make sense of the verse without inventing new meanings for Hebrew words or adding legs to the earth.

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1c) (Polel) to raise up

1d) (Hithpael) to raise oneself, rise up

1e) (Hiphil)

1e1) to cause to arise, raise

1c) Polel is a rare stem formation. I don't think this is the form used in verse in question, maybe Stankann can confirm this.

1d) Hithpaelis  the reflexive form, which doesn't seem to be the form used in the verse in question.

1e) Hiphil is the causative form, which neither seem to be the form used in the verse in question.

If you look at the biblical dictionary entry, you will see the verb is also used for rising up in violence or rising up  in order to do something important, for example:

Psalm 17:7 (KJV)
Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

Psalm 139:21-22  (KJV)
Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Translation "Raise up" is used in the sense of building something...
Isaiah 44:26
Who confirms the word of His servant, And performs the counsel of His messengers; Who says to Jerusalem, ‘You shall be inhabited,’ To the cities of Judah, ‘You shall be built,’ And I will raise up her waste places;

Isaiah 61:4 (KJV)
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

...or bring on the scene

Genesis 38:8
Then Judah said to Onan, "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother."

Zechariah 11:16
For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.

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Recall, too, that word 'arise' in dictionaries like dictionary.com was in the context of rising when it came to natural phenomena:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/arises
...

This is just the meaning of a word in English, but Isaiah was written in Hebrew, so it isn't relevant.

The fact that Strong-6965 is translated as Arise in many cases, doesn't mean that all English uses of Arise can be attributed to the Hebrew word. Do you speak other languages other than English? This is easier to understand if you are familiar with more than one language.

Instead of looking at English dictionaries maybe you could have a look at biblical Hebrew dictionary entry I posted earlier or at this link: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6965.htm

I don't speak Hebrew and I'm not a bible expert, but I was able to find all this information just using google. What will happen when you debate someone who speaks Hebrew and knows the Bible? If you are serious about this I think you need to do more research and maybe learn some Hebrew and Greek.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:18:26 PM by kopfverderber »
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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2019, 01:29:13 PM »
You have yet to show why we can trust that the word didn't have a different meaning in the culture in question.

Moving on from your unsupported argument:

There are several places where the accepted translations are incorrect. Take for instance Gen i 20 when they said that "waters brought forth the fowl"; This has been admitted to be a false interpretation and has been rendered better as such:
ve ojup youpep ol he arets ol-peni reqio he-shemim
Or: and fowl let fly above the earth on the face of the firmament of the heavens.

Spheres do not have a face, let me remind you. More than this, there were clearly not two adamic creations.

Another example shows up here and there in the bible - belimeh is often wrongly translated as "nothing" - appearing to derive from blee and meh. Far more reasonable,, of course, is that it is derived from belem - to confine and restrain and so belimeh would then be fastenings or supports. This is coherent with later statements in Job: "whereupon are the foundations (ademeh, ie sockets) made to sink, or who laid the corner-stone thereof.

And so I ask you again - quo warranto?

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2019, 02:03:43 PM »
You have yet to show why we can trust that the word didn't have a different meaning in the culture in question.

John, maybe you can show why we should trust you instead of trusting biblical Hebrew dictionaries and Hebrew speakers. You are the one discovering the new meaning for the word, you should be the one proving your point.

If the word could have different meanings in the past, then how do you know what those meanings were? Can you just invent anything? Maybe the verse says that the earth is spinning  around the sun, because who knows it could also have this meaning in the culture in question, right?  according to your logic why not?

I showed you what scholars say. A Hebrew speaker also told you what the word actually means.  It's a common word, nothing fancy. I suggest looking at the other 600 appearances of strong-6965 and make your decision.

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There are several places where the accepted translations are incorrect.
Yes translations can be misleading, so forget about the translation and look at the meaning of the Hebrews word, that's been like my whole point all along.

Quote
Spheres do not have a face, let me remind you. More than this, there were clearly not two adamic creations.
The bible doesn't say the earth is flat, but I think the flat earth cosmology is quite clear  in the bible. I'm pretty sure Hebrews in biblical times believed the earth was flat, so it's not a surprise.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:09:07 PM by kopfverderber »
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2019, 07:26:00 AM »
You have yet to show why we can trust that the word didn't have a different meaning in the culture in question.

And no one needs to.

The whole silly argument over the use of the Hebrew word for rise started with bizarre suggestion that it somehow showed the Bible describes a UA flat earth.

To reach that conclusion, requires:

A) To believe the Bible is actually the word of God.  This is entirely a matter of faith to start with, but given the thread title, I’ll not argue.

B) That the Bible should be be taken literally word for word, which is getting very tenuous.

C) Apparently now that the word might have had a different meaning in past cultures, that we have no way to confirm. 

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Moving on from your unsupported argument:

The argument is support by passages using same word being used elsewhere that can’t be in relation to the movement of the earth, and by testimony of someone who actually speaks Hebrew.  That’s s lot more supported than the original daft claim.

Quote
There are several places where the accepted translations are incorrect. Take for instance Gen i 20 when they said that "waters brought forth the fowl"; This has been admitted to be a false interpretation and has been rendered better as such:
ve ojup youpep ol he arets ol-peni reqio he-shemim
Or: and fowl let fly above the earth on the face of the firmament of the heavens.

Spheres do not have a face, let me remind you. More than this, there were clearly not two adamic creations.

Domes don’t have a flat face either.  Or do you propose the firmament is cuboid?  Tetrahedral?  Any other polyhedron? 

Obviously, most people these days don’t believe in a physical structure to “the firmament” anyway, spherical or otherwise.  But if you think this passage should be taken literally, then maybe you need to tell us what shape the firmament should be.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2019, 07:28:26 AM »
To kopfverderber:

לקום is a פעל (pa-al) verb.   This tells us the form of the verb conjugations. For instance, from looking at the infinitive of the verb, I can determine that it is פעל and I know that the past tense 1st person will be קמתי (kamti) or in English "I got up" (that's right, a complete sentence in one word).  Anyone who knows Hebrew would know this immediately from the form of the word, whether they are King David or Natalie Portman.   I could not even follow the discussion of "binyanim" here.  I just kind of shuddered and sighed.   The Flat Earthers think they are experts on subjects they know nothing about.  That is how they can maintain their belief that the Earth is flat.  There is no point in arguing with them, but it is good to point out how wrong they are so they are challenged when people who are exploring ways of looking at things come to this site.   

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2019, 10:13:36 AM »
If you wish to debate various aspects of FET, go right ahead. Knock off the attacks on flat earthers. If you think there's no point arguing with flat earthers, you shouldn't even be here.

I can't help that some of you get upset by the fact that the ancient Hebrews were FE, try to control yourselves.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2019, 12:15:52 PM »
If I am correct in my unassailed assertion that one cannot understand a text without knowing the entire ouvre that it was written within, and you are correct in your assertion that the ancient hebrews were flat earthers - then it seems clear to follow that since their 'flat eartherness' is within said ouvre, that the Bible must then literally describe a flat earth, and where it doesn't is a mistake in translation due to our inability to see said body of knowledge / culture / etc.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2019, 01:14:47 AM »
If I am correct in my unassailed assertion that one cannot understand a text without knowing the entire ouvre that it was written within, and you are correct in your assertion that the ancient hebrews were flat earthers - then it seems clear to follow that since their 'flat eartherness' is within said ouvre, that the Bible must then literally describe a flat earth, and where it doesn't is a mistake in translation due to our inability to see said body of knowledge / culture / etc.

Probably.

And I think that’s a good example of why most religious people don’t think their respective holy books should be taken too literally.  The argument being that whatever devine truth in them was either interpreted by ancient people  according to their understanding or deliberately tailored by God to fit their culture.

Try to reconcile a literal reading of the Bible with what we learn through science can lead to some funny conclusions, such as my all time favorite:  Teenage dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark

https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/were-dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark/

Sorry, Flat Earthers.  You still haven’t topped this one.


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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2019, 04:16:28 PM »
Yes apologetics can be funny; I don't feel this is the case here though. It seems very clear the Bible then states the earth is flat; from there we need to bridge the gap to whether or not it 'proves' the earth is flat.

I contend it does as much so as science can prove anything. They are just two separate traditions of knowledge, and each has equal merit and truth. Neither can logically prove anything better than the other.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2019, 10:10:12 PM »
I contend it does as much so as science can prove anything. They are just two separate traditions of knowledge, and each has equal merit and truth. Neither can logically prove anything better than the other.
This comes down to what you mean by "prove".
If you mean "prove" in the strictest sense, then nothing can be proven.

If you mean it in the more common sense, then science can and does prove things, while religion just asserts it.

Science and religion have vastly different merit and truth. Science is vastly superior to determining the truth.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2019, 03:37:00 AM »
I contend it does as much so as science can prove anything. They are just two separate traditions of knowledge, and each has equal merit and truth. Neither can logically prove anything better than the other.
This comes down to what you mean by "prove".
If you mean "prove" in the strictest sense, then nothing can be proven.

If you mean it in the more common sense, then science can and does prove things, while religion just asserts it.

Science and religion have vastly different merit and truth. Science is vastly superior to determining the truth.

Where was science for the almost 5000 years that Jews knew about the concept of hygiene and the value of washing your hands after touching something 'unclean'? Oh that's right. They couldn't see a germ so it didn't exist. Never mind the people getting sick and dying when "doctors" would be handling non sick people after touching diseased/dead ones  ??? ::)

The plague may not have been as devastating had science adopted the religious assertion about things that were 'unclean'

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kachowabunga 17

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2019, 06:32:24 AM »
It seems very clear the Bible then states the earth is flat;

You do realize that the Bible describes the Earth as having multiple shapes, being both round and having corners. The Bible only says this to be understandable by an audience that largely believed the Earth was flat.
You're not just wrong, you're stupid.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2019, 01:10:24 PM »
Where was science for the almost 5000 years that Jews knew about the concept of hygiene and the value of washing your hands after touching something 'unclean'?
And on what basis did they determine if something was clean or unclean?

The plague may not have been as devastating had science adopted the religious assertion about things that were 'unclean'
That would require them to also accept that the plague victims were unclean.
There are plenty of diseases that don't match that. And also plenty were simply washing your hands wont help.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2019, 02:27:48 PM »
Where was science for the almost 5000 years that Jews knew about the concept of hygiene and the value of washing your hands after touching something 'unclean'?
And on what basis did they determine if something was clean or unclean?

The plague may not have been as devastating had science adopted the religious assertion about things that were 'unclean'
That would require them to also accept that the plague victims were unclean.
There are plenty of diseases that don't match that. And also plenty were simply washing your hands wont help.

OK. Let's get rid of the hand washing stations in hospitals, toilets etc. JackBlack says it won't help  ::)

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2019, 02:58:56 PM »
OK. Let's get rid of the hand washing stations in hospitals, toilets etc. JackBlack says it won't help  ::)
And just where did I say that?

I said that for some diseases it wont help.
That doesn't mean it wont help for others.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2019, 04:24:35 PM »
OK. Let's get rid of the hand washing stations in hospitals, toilets etc. JackBlack says it won't help  ::)
And just where did I say that?

I said that for some diseases it wont help.
That doesn't mean it wont help for others.

Back in the olden days, say you had a nasty and open ulcer in your mouth. Your doctor would have put ungloved hands in your mouth after using ungloved hands delivering a baby where woman has a major outbreak of herpes and genital warts. Nice.

Why wash hands the doctor would laugh at the thought? I can't see any of these invisible germs, don't be silly.

In fact the doctor who put 2 and 2 together in the 1800s was laughed at for suggesting that germs exist. When he noticed doctors treating sick patients move on to healthy patients who then got sick he dared ask questions.

Although had he turned to the holy bible the protocol for dealing with dead or unclean animals was already there.

Touching a dead body, faeces or blood was unclean. Likewise for the sick.

It only took 'science' 5000 years to catch on

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2019, 01:13:24 AM »
Back in the olden days, say you had a nasty and open ulcer in your mouth. Your doctor would have put ungloved hands in your mouth after using ungloved hands delivering a baby where woman has a major outbreak of herpes and genital warts. Nice.
And all the Bible would have demanded they do is to wash their hands with some water between the 2 patients.
Nice.

Now with science, they use gloves, and dispose of those gloves.

Touching a dead body, faeces or blood was unclean. Likewise for the sick.
As already pointed out, that depends on what you mean by "sick."
For the most part, if it doesn't appear visually on the skin, and spread, or include a "discharge" (does vomit count? what about diarrhoea?), it doesn't count as sick.

And of course, after the person has gotten over their illness, in order to be clean the priest needs to kill a bird over water, then take another bird along with a few other items, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and sprinkle that blood on the person 7 times.
Because that is just a wonderful way to clean people isn't it? Intentionally putting blood on them?
Then after that they shave and bathe (in water) and wash their clothes.
Then they shave again.
Then MORE BLOOD. This time it is the blood of a lamb, put on the right ear, thumb and big toe, with the left ones getting oil instead.

And more insanity with being unclean (where you magically remain unclean until evening, and then magically become clean).
Have sex, unclean.
Ejaculate, unclean.
Have a period, unclean.
Touch anyone on their period, unclean.

Science asserts it is as much as religion
No, science asserts a process for finding truth. Religion asserts statements as true.
They are vastly different.

And so you come here, and when you do - we at least we have the will to say we are wrong and know it. You know as well as I do, the earth could as easily be flat or trapezoid or just some nonsense shape.
No. That depends upon what you mean by "know". If you mean it in the common sense of the word, then I know it is round, because that is what all the evidence indicates.
If you mean it in the more technical sense then I don't even know that Earth exists, as you cannot know anything.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2019, 01:21:21 AM »
Back in the olden days, say you had a nasty and open ulcer in your mouth. Your doctor would have put ungloved hands in your mouth after using ungloved hands delivering a baby where woman has a major outbreak of herpes and genital warts. Nice.
And all the Bible would have demanded they do is to wash their hands with some water between the 2 patients.
Nice.

Now with science, they use gloves, and dispose of those gloves.

Touching a dead body, faeces or blood was unclean. Likewise for the sick.
As already pointed out, that depends on what you mean by "sick."
For the most part, if it doesn't appear visually on the skin, and spread, or include a "discharge" (does vomit count? what about diarrhoea?), it doesn't count as sick.

And of course, after the person has gotten over their illness, in order to be clean the priest needs to kill a bird over water, then take another bird along with a few other items, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and sprinkle that blood on the person 7 times.
Because that is just a wonderful way to clean people isn't it? Intentionally putting blood on them?
Then after that they shave and bathe (in water) and wash their clothes.
Then they shave again.
Then MORE BLOOD. This time it is the blood of a lamb, put on the right ear, thumb and big toe, with the left ones getting oil instead.

And more insanity with being unclean (where you magically remain unclean until evening, and then magically become clean).
Have sex, unclean.
Ejaculate, unclean.
Have a period, unclean.
Touch anyone on their period, unclean.

What do you suppose was the science behind a woman being 'unclean' for 33 days after having a boy and 66 days after having a girl. Why does having a girl take twice the amount of days to become clean?

Of course there are some screwed up myths and ideas about the practices of people thousands of years ago. Point is, science was floundering to come up with answers to seemingly obvious questions regarding a link between sickness and hygiene.

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Stash

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2019, 01:50:31 AM »
Back in the olden days, say you had a nasty and open ulcer in your mouth. Your doctor would have put ungloved hands in your mouth after using ungloved hands delivering a baby where woman has a major outbreak of herpes and genital warts. Nice.
And all the Bible would have demanded they do is to wash their hands with some water between the 2 patients.
Nice.

Now with science, they use gloves, and dispose of those gloves.

Touching a dead body, faeces or blood was unclean. Likewise for the sick.
As already pointed out, that depends on what you mean by "sick."
For the most part, if it doesn't appear visually on the skin, and spread, or include a "discharge" (does vomit count? what about diarrhoea?), it doesn't count as sick.

And of course, after the person has gotten over their illness, in order to be clean the priest needs to kill a bird over water, then take another bird along with a few other items, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and sprinkle that blood on the person 7 times.
Because that is just a wonderful way to clean people isn't it? Intentionally putting blood on them?
Then after that they shave and bathe (in water) and wash their clothes.
Then they shave again.
Then MORE BLOOD. This time it is the blood of a lamb, put on the right ear, thumb and big toe, with the left ones getting oil instead.

And more insanity with being unclean (where you magically remain unclean until evening, and then magically become clean).
Have sex, unclean.
Ejaculate, unclean.
Have a period, unclean.
Touch anyone on their period, unclean.

What do you suppose was the science behind a woman being 'unclean' for 33 days after having a boy and 66 days after having a girl. Why does having a girl take twice the amount of days to become clean?

Of course there are some screwed up myths and ideas about the practices of people thousands of years ago. Point is, science was floundering to come up with answers to seemingly obvious questions regarding a link between sickness and hygiene.

Bacon. Why no bacon? What omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing, loving God would forsake us bacon? Because cloven hoofed, non-cud eating creatures like our pig are considered 'unclean'? For our germ safety? Did s/he not get the memo that bacon rocks!? On and with just about everything? Even standalone?

I reject the argument that 5000 years ago elders knew better about hygiene and germs, etc., as evidenced by the fact that they rejected the holiest of holy tasting; side of bacon.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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Shifter

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2019, 02:25:46 AM »
Back in the olden days, say you had a nasty and open ulcer in your mouth. Your doctor would have put ungloved hands in your mouth after using ungloved hands delivering a baby where woman has a major outbreak of herpes and genital warts. Nice.
And all the Bible would have demanded they do is to wash their hands with some water between the 2 patients.
Nice.

Now with science, they use gloves, and dispose of those gloves.

Touching a dead body, faeces or blood was unclean. Likewise for the sick.
As already pointed out, that depends on what you mean by "sick."
For the most part, if it doesn't appear visually on the skin, and spread, or include a "discharge" (does vomit count? what about diarrhoea?), it doesn't count as sick.

And of course, after the person has gotten over their illness, in order to be clean the priest needs to kill a bird over water, then take another bird along with a few other items, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and sprinkle that blood on the person 7 times.
Because that is just a wonderful way to clean people isn't it? Intentionally putting blood on them?
Then after that they shave and bathe (in water) and wash their clothes.
Then they shave again.
Then MORE BLOOD. This time it is the blood of a lamb, put on the right ear, thumb and big toe, with the left ones getting oil instead.

And more insanity with being unclean (where you magically remain unclean until evening, and then magically become clean).
Have sex, unclean.
Ejaculate, unclean.
Have a period, unclean.
Touch anyone on their period, unclean.

What do you suppose was the science behind a woman being 'unclean' for 33 days after having a boy and 66 days after having a girl. Why does having a girl take twice the amount of days to become clean?

Of course there are some screwed up myths and ideas about the practices of people thousands of years ago. Point is, science was floundering to come up with answers to seemingly obvious questions regarding a link between sickness and hygiene.

Bacon. Why no bacon? What omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing, loving God would forsake us bacon? Because cloven hoofed, non-cud eating creatures like our pig are considered 'unclean'? For our germ safety? Did s/he not get the memo that bacon rocks!? On and with just about everything? Even standalone?

I reject the argument that 5000 years ago elders knew better about hygiene and germs, etc., as evidenced by the fact that they rejected the holiest of holy tasting; side of bacon.

Pork is still a shitty source of nutrition compared to other available meats such as beef, lamb, fish or chicken. That said, I found a open packet of short cut bacon in my fridge nearly a week after the expiry. I still cooked an ate it. Afterwards I figured I could have washed it incase there was slime first but hey, I'm still here

 

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2019, 03:04:44 AM »
Of course there are some screwed up myths and ideas about the practices of people thousands of years ago. Point is, science was floundering to come up with answers to seemingly obvious questions regarding a link between sickness and hygiene.

Bacon. Why no bacon? What omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing, loving God would forsake us bacon? Because cloven hoofed, non-cud eating creatures like our pig are considered 'unclean'? For our germ safety? Did s/he not get the memo that bacon rocks!? On and with just about everything? Even standalone?

I reject the argument that 5000 years ago elders knew better about hygiene and germs, etc., as evidenced by the fact that they rejected the holiest of holy tasting; side of bacon.
Maybe they didn't, maybe they found out by bitter experience or by other means.
But there are diseases that carnivores and omnivores are susceptible to that can infect humans when the raw or under-cooked flesh is eaten.
One example is kuru from funerary cannibalism ::) practised by the Fore tribe of Papua New Guinea. "The epidemic likely started when a villager developed sporadic Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and died. When villagers ate the brain, they contracted the disease, and it was then spread to other villagers who ate their infected brains." Ugh :(!

Another is Trichinosis from eating undercooked flesh of carnivores and omnivores, including domestic pigs.

But the flesh of herbivores poses little such risk.
:
Quote
MAYO CLINIC: Trichinosis
Overview
Trichinosis (trik-ih-NO-sis), sometimes called trichinellosis (trik-ih-nuh-LOW-sis), is a type of roundworm infection. Roundworm parasites use a host body to live and reproduce. Infection occurs primarily among meat-eating animals (carnivores) such as bears and foxes, or meat- and plant-eating animals (omnivores) such as domestic pigs and wild boar. The infection is acquired by eating roundworm larvae in raw or undercooked meat.

When humans eat undercooked meat containing trichinella larvae, the larvae mature into adult worms in the intestine over several weeks. The adult worms then produce larvae that travel through various tissues, including muscle. Trichinosis is most widespread in rural areas throughout the world.
Even today trichinosis is a risk which is minimised by good management, which is one reason why restaurant scraps can no longer be fed to pigs.

So avoiding the flesh of carnivores and omnivores by certain religious groups does have a solid basis.

But I do like my bacon and pork too :)!

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2019, 05:29:45 AM »
Of course there are some screwed up myths and ideas about the practices of people thousands of years ago. Point is, science was floundering to come up with answers to seemingly obvious questions regarding a link between sickness and hygiene.
And the point is that religion did far worse.
Science has now advanced and actually understands sickness fairly well.
Religion still has the same outdated nonsense of unclean/clean.
The religious weren't massively ahead.
They had a collection of things they considered to be unclean, some of which matched some infectious disease.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2020, 09:08:47 AM »
I just saw this on Facebook. I think it exemplifies my frustration with this thread.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2020, 01:20:56 AM »
why would anyone even care what it says in the bible, its mostly poorly interpreted, plagiarized versions of older texts anyway.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 07:03:30 PM by mbogo »

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2020, 02:17:58 AM »
I would just be grateful if someone could give me a single, definitive explanation as to when, why and how this whole flat Earth idea came from in the first place.  So far no one seems to be able to or willing to.

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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2020, 03:45:43 AM »
I would just be grateful if someone could give me a single, definitive explanation as to when, why and how this whole flat Earth idea came from in the first place.  So far no one seems to be able to or willing to.
Almost without exception all ancient people believed the Earth to be flat.
I say "almost" because some modern Indians claim that the ancients Veda taught even that the Earth rotates and orbits the Sun:

India Knew That Earth Was Round, Even Before Galileo! | Amazing India | Art Of Living By The Art of Living

The Greeks from around 550 BC started to see than was a Globe.

But, I believe that the modern flat-Earth "movement" started in the early 1800s as a counter to the perceived secularisation of society by the teachings of Darwin etc.
Why a flat-Earth and not simply a reversion to the pre-Copernican Geocentric Cosmology l do not know.

This "modern" flat-Earthism was firmed up by Rowbotham's leaflets, books and lectures.
Rather than go into detail you could read Modern flat Earth societies.
Though the writers of that may not have a good understanding of all that Rowbotham wrote.
There is a long slow growth till the social media permitted the rapid spread of "different" ideas.
This paper describes some of the history of the flat-Earth The Flat Earth by Donald E. Simanek.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2020, 03:06:46 PM »
why would anyone even care what it says in the bible, its mostly poorly interpreted, plagiarized versions of older texts anyway.

But the point is that the texts are not interpreted.  The Hebrew texts are written in Hebrew.  The same language that is spoken today.  The Dead Sea scrolls, from over 2 thousand years ago had portions of the Old Testament; they were the same as the ones that are read today. 
Now, I am not a religious person, nor am I into any kind of proselytizing.  Whether you believe the Bible or not is not the point.  The point is that the Hebrew is the Hebrew.  It is not some lost language.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #117 on: February 18, 2020, 02:20:52 PM »
I would just be grateful if someone could give me a single, definitive explanation as to when, why and how this whole flat Earth idea came from in the first place.  So far no one seems to be able to or willing to.
And like many great ideas, it came around as a reaction against its predecessors whose view was shown to be patently false again and again.
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rabinoz

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #118 on: February 18, 2020, 07:00:54 PM »
I would just be grateful if someone could give me a single, definitive explanation as to when, why and how this whole flat Earth idea came from in the first place.  So far no one seems to be able to or willing to.
And like many great ideas, it came around as a reaction against its predecessors whose view was shown to be patently false again and again.
They were? Would you care to show this "view was shown to be patently false again and again."?

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2020, 03:02:57 PM »
You can start with Earth: Not A Globe. It presents plenty of evidence that earth is not a globe; have you read it, given how long you've been here? The Zeteticist is another great source.
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