The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2019, 04:18:12 PM »
Funny that the interpretation that agrees with the concordance indexes is "creative interpretation" and the one which does not agree with them is the correct interpretation.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2019, 05:32:09 PM »
So in the Earth's destruction the Earth literally shakes, it is literally split asunder, but it figuratively falls, 'never to rise again'?
It doesn't need to be figurative.
The falling of the dead and them not rising again from the metaphor comes from physical reality. People when killed/when they die can fall down, i.e. literally fall. When people are alive, if they fall, they can rise again, i.e. stand up.

Sounds like motion to me.

You're really trying to shoehorn the use of the words falling and rising into supporting universal acceleration ideas?

So what went on here?



Or here?




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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2019, 05:40:47 PM »
Looks like the figurative usage of 'fall'. Once again, it appears that this is an appeal to the argument of a figurative interpretation of the Bible -- "The Bible is only figurative, it doesn't really mean rise. Yes, it means that the earth will literally shake, and literally be broken apart during its destruction, but the fall and never rise again part which comes immediately after is purely figurative because we know by intuition that the bible has a stationary earth!"

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2019, 11:01:12 PM »
Looks like the figurative usage of 'fall'. Once again, it appears that this is an appeal to the argument of a figurative interpretation of the Bible -- "The Bible is only figurative, it doesn't really mean rise. Yes, it means that the earth will literally shake, and literally be broken apart during its destruction, but the fall and never rise again part which comes immediately after is purely figurative because we know by intuition that the bible has a stationary earth!"

I find your interpretation of Isaiah 24:20 is not correct very odd, I don't think you will find a biblical scholar who agrees with you. Fall to never rise again doesn't imply that it was rising before. In English there can be some confusion about this, but the bible was written in Hebrew.

As explained earlier Qūm means to stand up, to arise. Could you please show the verses that support your interpretation of the Hebrew word "qūm" as something constantly rising?

The exact same word is employed 38 times in the Bible: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/kum_6965.htm
Here are some examples. The meaning in nearly all cases is arising from a lying or sitting position, to get up.
Genesis 19:15
Lot saying Arise take your wife
Genesis 35:1
said to Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel
Numbers 22:20
have come the men rise up go but
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen-- thrown down, not able to rise!

This one is the most similar to Isaiah 24:20
Amos 5:2
Fallen is Virgin Israel, never to rise again, deserted in her own land, with no one to lift her up.

So according to Amos 5:2 UA stopped applying to Israel, what is your interpretation?

Here's some verses with "never rise again" or similar:

Jeremiah 8:4
So you are to tell them this is what the LORD says: ‘Do men fall and not get up again? Does one turn away and not return?
What is your interpretaion Tom? Are men constantly rising until they fall?

Amos 8:14
Those who swear by the sin of Samaria-- who say, 'As surely as your god lives, Dan,' or, 'As surely as the god of Beersheba lives'-- they will fall, never to rise again."
What is you interpretation Tom?  Are those who swear in sin constantly accelerating upwards until the fall?

Jeremiah 51:64
hen say, ‘In this same way Babylon and her people will sink, never again to rise, because of the disasters I will bring upon her.’” This is the end of Jeremiah’s messages.
Tom, does it mean UA will stop applying to Babylon but the rest of the earth will continue rising?

Deuteronomy 33:11
Bless the ministry of the Levites, O LORD, and accept all the work of their hands. Hit their enemies where it hurts the most; strike down their foes so they never rise again.”
Tom, are those enemies in a state of constantly rising?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 11:57:34 PM by kopfverderber »
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Bullwinkle

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2019, 11:25:12 PM »

Your interpretation of Isaiah 24:20 is not correct,

I can imagine you pounding your tits and screaming about your personal opinion.

Does some god sign your paycheck, or are you just belching shit you have been fed?










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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2019, 11:50:48 PM »

Your interpretation of Isaiah 24:20 is not correct,

I can imagine you pounding your tits and screaming about your personal opinion.

Does some god sign your paycheck, or are you just belching shit you have been fed?

You are right, I should have worded it in a different way. My bad.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 11:52:28 PM by kopfverderber »
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Bullwinkle

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2019, 12:34:38 AM »

Your interpretation of Isaiah 24:20 is not correct,

I can imagine you pounding your tits and screaming about your personal opinion.

Does some god sign your paycheck, or are you just belching shit you have been fed?

You are right, I should have worded it in a different way. My bad.

It's just when I hear, "MY GOD, MY WAY", it makes me think it's all about you
instead of about the shit you profess to believe.

So, go ahead and word it your own way, opposed to what is written.


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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2019, 01:23:35 AM »

Your interpretation of Isaiah 24:20 is not correct,

I can imagine you pounding your tits and screaming about your personal opinion.

Does some god sign your paycheck, or are you just belching shit you have been fed?

You are right, I should have worded it in a different way. My bad.

It's just when I hear, "MY GOD, MY WAY", it makes me think it's all about you
instead of about the shit you profess to believe.

So, go ahead and word it your own way, opposed to what is written.

I'm an atheist. The dispute with Tom is not about what I believe or what he believes. The way I see it it's a technical dispute on what is the literal meaning of those words in Hebrew and in English, it's a question of language, not of theology.

I'm not willing to dispute anyone's faith and right to interpret the scriptures. My wording was bad and this was not clear.

A "literal interpretation" is based on what the words means literally. Of course Tom has every right to interpret the Bible as he sees fit. But when he says his interpretation is a literal interpretation, that can be disputed.

In English "Fall to never rise again" doesn't imply that it was rising before. The dead fall never to rise again. It doesn't imply a natural state of constant rising.

The Hebrew word qum means standing up, arising, getting up. The same word is used 38 times in the bible and the same verb with different form more than 600 times.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2019, 01:36:29 AM »
Ever read a time share contract?

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2019, 01:40:49 AM »
Funny that the interpretation that agrees with the concordance indexes is "creative interpretation" and the one which does not agree with them is the correct interpretation.
No, it doesn't.
The concordance you listed is still quite ambiguous. If anything it seems to lend support to the idea that Earth isn't moving upwards.

Rise doesn't require it to be continuous.
Having something fall to never rise again does not mean it is continually rising before it falls.
All it means is that it was up, and it was made to be down.

If you didn't already want it to be saying Earth is accelerating upwards there would be no reason to think this passage means that Earth is currently rising upwards. That is where the creative interpretation comes in.

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Stash

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2019, 02:00:03 AM »
At the end of the day, wouldn't a scriptural interpretation of UA simply be this, except a flat earth with the Sun and all of the other celestial bodies revolving above it instead of swirling around the sun?

No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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kopfverderber

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2019, 02:15:21 AM »
@Tom And these are the words used in the OT for rise in the sense of ascending, rising up, lifting... As you can see not the same word as in Isaiah 24:20

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2019, 07:32:12 AM »
@Tom

I raised the question in a Hebrew language forum, so that people who actually speak Hebrew can shed some light on the issue.

https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/

Quote
No, that's not the meaning of לָקוּם lāqûm. Rather, לָקוּם means "to get up" as in the sense of getting up in the morning or standing up when you've been sitting.

The idea of rising up in the sense of going higher is לִגְבֹּהַּ liḡbōah [H1361], לָרוּם lārûm [H7311], לַעֲלוֹת laʿălôṯ [H5927], among others that become more popular in the post-biblical language.

This is simply not how the verb לָקוּם is used.

In this case, the land (that is, הָאָ֫רֶץ hāʾā́reṣ, probably referring to the Land of Israel and not to the planet Earth) "rising" meaning that it cannot be established as good ever again. It has fallen - in sin or in defeat. This has nothing to do with the earth wandering around like a drunkard.

Are you convinced now?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 07:51:19 AM by kopfverderber »
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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2019, 01:07:03 PM »
I think it's pretty humorous you wish to claim knowledge of what the word meant in ancient hebrew by consulting a web forum of modern hebrew language. This has all so far shown very little either way, and the matter actually requires a lot more research than has been done here.




« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 01:12:18 PM by John Davis »
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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2019, 01:56:19 PM »
I think it's pretty humorous you wish to claim knowledge of what the word meant in ancient hebrew by consulting a web forum of modern hebrew language. This has all so far shown very little either way, and the matter actually requires a lot more research than has been done here.
I looked at the other cases where the word is used, I looked at a dictionary, I asked a Hebrew speaking person. What else do you need? Are you arguing against the dictionary? Do you know more Hebrew than the person who answered the question at the Jewish Forums? At this point it's be very clear what the word means in Hebrew.

Rise can mean different things in English, but what is relevant is the meaning in the original language, Hebrew. I showed a lot of evidence that the word doesn't mean what Tom wants it to mean.

Do you speak other languages apart from English? When the same verse is translated to German or Spanish the word "stand up" is used. Why? because that's what it means. Tom's whole interpretation is based on the alternative meanings of the word rise in English. But even in English the interpretation makes no sense, because falling to never rise again doesn't imply a previous state of constantly rising.
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2019, 02:56:38 PM »
Rise can mean different things in English, but what is relevant is the meaning in the original language, Hebrew.
And John's point is that it isn't simply "Hebrew". Languages are not static. They evolve as people use them.
Only once a language is dead will it remain static.
Modern Hebrew is different to the ancient Hebrew the Bible was written in.
The same happens to all languages.

The meaning of words will change as people use them.
This is especially true when new words are invented.

As a hypothetical example related to rise.
Lets assume that before the only word connected to this issue was rise.
This word would then be used for all kinds, regardless of it meant to rise for a short period and then stop (e.g. stand), or if it meant to continually rise.
But then someone comes along and invents a new word/phrase "continuous ascent". Now, people will start to use this new word/phrase more for continually rising upwards, and start using the old word less.
After enough time, the old word in common usage would no longer refer to a continuous ascent, but just to a short period.

While modern Hebrew may get you in the range of meanings, it is very far from definitive.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2019, 04:09:50 PM »
Rise can mean different things in English, but what is relevant is the meaning in the original language, Hebrew.
And John's point is that it isn't simply "Hebrew". Languages are not static. They evolve as people use them.
Only once a language is dead will it remain static.
Modern Hebrew is different to the ancient Hebrew the Bible was written in.
The same happens to all languages.

The meaning of words will change as people use them.
This is especially true when new words are invented.

As a hypothetical example related to rise.
Lets assume that before the only word connected to this issue was rise.
This word would then be used for all kinds, regardless of it meant to rise for a short period and then stop (e.g. stand), or if it meant to continually rise.
But then someone comes along and invents a new word/phrase "continuous ascent". Now, people will start to use this new word/phrase more for continually rising upwards, and start using the old word less.
After enough time, the old word in common usage would no longer refer to a continuous ascent, but just to a short period.

While modern Hebrew may get you in the range of meanings, it is very far from definitive.

I understand that, but the fact that it's ancient Hebrew doesn't mean that the meaning is not known today.

The dictionary entry I posted is not modern Hebrew, it's biblical Hebrew an it explains the uses of the word in the bible, it's made by bible scholars. The person answering in the Jewish Forums specified the uses of the word in the bible in ancient Hebrew, not the modern uses if there is any.

It's also possible to check the other 600 bible entries where the word is used and confirm that it's consistent with the biblical dictionary. I checked many of them. The word just doesn't have the meaning of something going up.

In English the same word rise might be used for stand up and go up, but in other languages that doesn't necessarily happen. If Tom had read the bible in Spanish he would have never have this confusion, because in Spanish we have different word for rising from the ground (levantarse) and for something going up (subir). Or in German the word in the verse is translated as "stehenbleiben", which also can't be confused with something going up.

In ancient Hebrew they also had a different word for getting up and for going up, so this confusion is not possible.  The only way to have this confusion is if you read the verse in English or other language where the same word is used for these two things.

I'm trying to access a more specialized hebrew biblical forum, but I couldn't register yet. This is the biblical Hebrew dictionary entry. I think it explains it quite well:

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:

ּ

qûm

1) to rise, arise, stand, rise up, stand up

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to arise

1a2) to arise (hostile sense)

1a3) to arise, become powerful

1a4) to arise, come on the scene

1a5) to stand

1a5a) to maintain oneself

1a5b) to be established, be confirmed

1a5c) to stand, endure

1a5d) to be fixed

1a5e) to be valid

1a5f) to be proven

1a5g) to be fulfilled

1a5h) to persist

1a5i) to be set, be fixed

1b) (Piel)

1b1) to fulfil

1b2) to confirm, ratify, establish, impose

1c) (Polel) to raise up

1d) (Hithpael) to raise oneself, rise up

1e) (Hiphil)

1e1) to cause to arise, raise

1e2) to raise, set up, erect, build

1e3) to raise up, bring on the scene

1e4) to raise up, rouse, stir up, investigate

1e5) to raise up, constitute

1e6) to cause to stand, set, station, establish

1e7) to make binding

1e8) to carry out, give effect to

1f) (Hophal) to be raised up

Part of Speech: verb

Relation: a primitive root
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 11:52:20 PM by kopfverderber »
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2019, 12:31:43 PM »
Yes! That is it. Christian RE have to reinterpret the meaning of words to make them fit their beliefs. Christian FE do not reinterpret the meaning of the words.

LOL, every single person that believes in that book of myths reinterprets the meaning of words to make them fit their beliefs.  That or lazily just believing what some preacher tells them.


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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2019, 08:16:26 AM »
Its a good thing we aren't talking about a book of myth, but instead a clearly historical account - albeit one that is easily contested.

To kopfverderber response, obviously biblical scholars will choose the translations that suit their worldview best, and ignore those that seem ludicrous to them -- especially as they are for the most part not taking the work literally.
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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2019, 02:08:37 AM »
Its a good thing we aren't talking about a book of myth, but instead a clearly historical account - albeit one that is easily contested.

To kopfverderber response, obviously biblical scholars will choose the translations that suit their worldview best, and ignore those that seem ludicrous to them -- especially as they are for the most part not taking the work literally.

It has nothing to do with world views. The verb in question literally means to stand or arise from seated position. Its used like this in more than 600 places in the bible, just go and have a look, I already did. The same word exists in aramaic with the exact same meaning.

When the meaning is "go up" different words are used. There are plenty of examples in the bible as well. I suggest have a look at the bible, I already did.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 03:14:56 AM by kopfverderber »
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2019, 05:46:30 AM »
Okay, so listen guys I actually speak Hebrew.  I can tell you that לקום (lkoom or qum) or however you want to transliterate it means to get up;  Like to get out of bed in the morning or to get out of a chair and stand.  That is what it means.  There are other words that indicate upward.  The word לעלות Laalot is used literally and figuratively to mean to rise.  It is used very often to describe spiritual concepts of rising.  For instance if you are called to read from the Torah, you are making an aliah, which is a form of laalot.  These are everyday words, not something used rarely. 
The long and short of this is that trying to translate a word from a language you don't know to another to prove a point is foolish.  There are so many nuances and meanings in languages that you can't get if you don't know the language.  But, I guess if you are trying to prove that the Earth is flat, we are already pretty far beyond "foolish".

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2019, 07:55:15 AM »
Where did you study ancient hebrew stan?
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2019, 08:27:26 AM »
Ancient Hebrew is pretty much the same as modern Hebrew.  It is not like old English.  The language went dormant as a daily spoken language for thousands of years so it did not evolve.   In the late 1800's when Jews started immigrating to Israel, a common language was needed so that immigrants  from different places in the world could communicate.   Hebrew was used for religious purposes so it still survived and was universal to Jews from everywhere.  Words that did not exist had to be added, and scholars worked to come up with words for things based on the 3 letter root system that was the basis and still is the basis of the language.  Modern Hebrew speakers can go to a synagogue and listen to ancient Hebrew prayers and understand them  (I am not religious so I rarely go) .   Of course there are words in Hebrew that I do not know, but we are not talking about exotic words here.  The verb  לקום  (lKoom or qum or whatever way you want to write it in English) is a basic word that means to get up.
It is pointless to argue with you.  You do not have to take my word for it.  Go to any Hebrew speaker or Hebrew scholar and ask them.  I am quite confident they will give you the same meaning for לקום as I did.   You of course will go on believing whatever you want to believe no matter what.  That is fundamental for someone that thinks the world is flat.

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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2019, 12:39:56 PM »
My point being, which Foucault puts beautifully in his work 'The Order of Things', is that it is impossible to draw the lines you are drawing - even with a (mostly) dead language.

Quote
This book first arose out of a passage in Borges, out of the laughter that shattered, as I read the passage, all the familiar landmarks of my thought — our thought, the thought that bears the stamp of our age and our geography — breaking up all the ordered surfaces and all the planes with which we are accustomed to tame the wild profusion of existing things, and continuing long afterwards to disturb and threaten with collapse our age-old distinction between the Same and the Other. This passage quotes a “certain Chinese encyclopedia” in which it is written that “animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (1) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off” look like flies”. In the wonderment of this taxonomy, the thing we apprehend in one great leap, the thing that, by means of the fable, is demonstrated as the exotic charm of another system of thought, is the limitation of our own, the stark impossibility of thinking that.

This exampkle is so foreign that we cannot possibly know what was meant by this categorization without having a complete knowledge of the ouvre of the time, including having lived there. I would contend - to a far lesser extent - that this is true of Hewbrew, especially that of the bible, as well. There is an impossibility of thinking like the ancient hebrews and that impossibility extends to their language.

As such, it makes sense to use concordance indexes like Bishop suggests.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 12:41:32 PM by John Davis »
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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2019, 02:56:46 PM »
My point being, which Foucault puts beautifully in his work 'The Order of Things', is that it is impossible to draw the lines you are drawing - even with a (mostly) dead language.

Quote
This book first arose out of a passage in Borges, out of the laughter that shattered, as I read the passage, all the familiar landmarks of my thought — our thought, the thought that bears the stamp of our age and our geography — breaking up all the ordered surfaces and all the planes with which we are accustomed to tame the wild profusion of existing things, and continuing long afterwards to disturb and threaten with collapse our age-old distinction between the Same and the Other. This passage quotes a “certain Chinese encyclopedia” in which it is written that “animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (1) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off” look like flies”. In the wonderment of this taxonomy, the thing we apprehend in one great leap, the thing that, by means of the fable, is demonstrated as the exotic charm of another system of thought, is the limitation of our own, the stark impossibility of thinking that.

This exampkle is so foreign that we cannot possibly know what was meant by this categorization without having a complete knowledge of the ouvre of the time, including having lived there. I would contend - to a far lesser extent - that this is true of Hewbrew, especially that of the bible, as well. There is an impossibility of thinking like the ancient hebrews and that impossibility extends to their language.

As such, it makes sense to use concordance indexes like Bishop suggests.

Qum means to stand up and it's sometimes translated to English as  'to rise'. Rise in English has also the meaning of something going up, but the bible wasn't written in english so why is that relevant?

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2019, 08:27:36 PM »
To John Davis.
I just want to say something else that I thought about. 
There is a song I learned as a kid.  Here is the transliteration.  Henai ma tov oo ma nayim, shevit aHim gam yachad.  Very simple.  We used to sing it in rounds.  It's really very pretty.  The meaning is simple too.  Things never translate exactly but this is roughly it.  "Here is what's good and what's nice.  Sitting  brothers (friends) together. 
I thought it was a campfire fire song written by early kibbutznicks in Israel.   I loved the song so much, I  actually would sing it to my mother when she was on her death bed.
A few years ago, a rabbi told me that it is one of the psalms of David.  My point is that the ancient language is essentially the same as the modern.   An ancient psalm of David can easily be mistaken for a modern campfire song. 
And my bigger point is this.  You are willing to argue with me that the verb לקום means something different than it actually means, when you have never used the word in a sentence, or probably can't even pronounce the word that you are arguing about.  This kind of stubborn intransigent thinking, where you are not  willing to learn something new, or be corrected about a misunderstood belief that you have when you are so clearly wrong, is how you can believe that the world is flat. 


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John Davis

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2019, 07:47:41 AM »
There is no way you can know what those that sung that song meant by those words at the time, or when it was originally written. I have no real stake in whether or not the bible literally says the earth is flat. Your argument just doesn't hold its weight.

Show me that that camp song *meant* the same thing at its conception and you will have at least supported your point. This, however, is not possible.
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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2019, 08:47:58 AM »
There is no way you can know what those that sung that song meant by those words at the time, or when it was originally written. I have no real stake in whether or not the bible literally says the earth is flat. Your argument just doesn't hold its weight.

Show me that that camp song *meant* the same thing at its conception and you will have at least supported your point. This, however, is not possible.

Sometimes it's difficult to understand what the author of a bible verse exactly meant and the bible is certanly open to interpretation. However the meaning of most of the words used in the bible is known fairly well, specially common words as the one in question. Just check a biblical dictionary if you dont want to believe random people.

Maybe you can explain why you think Isaiah's author meant "go up"  when he wrote "stand up"?

Maybe you also think when the bible says "up" it means "down"? or "right" means "left"?  since it was written so long ago we cannot know... is that what you mean?
You must gather your party before venturing forth

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17521
Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2019, 09:47:30 AM »
Maybe you can explain why you think Isaiah's author meant "go up"  when he wrote "stand up"?

Perhaps because the earth does not have legs? 'Rise up' is one of the definitions in the list you posted.

Quote
1c) (Polel) to raise up

1d) (Hithpael) to raise oneself, rise up

1e) (Hiphil)

1e1) to cause to arise, raise

Recall, too, that word 'arise' in dictionaries like dictionary.com was in the context of rising when it came to natural phenomena:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/arises

Quote
arise[ uh-rahyz ]
verb (used without object), a·rose, a·ris·en  [uh-riz-uhn] , a·ris·ing.

to get up from sitting, lying, or kneeling; rise:
He arose from his chair when she entered the room.

to awaken; wake up:
He arose at sunrise to get an early start to the beach.

to move upward; mount; ascend:
A thin curl of smoke arose lazily from the cabin
.

to come into being, action, or notice; originate; appear; spring up:
New problems arise daily.

to result or proceed; spring or issue (sometimes followed by from):
It is difficult to foresee the consequences that may arise from this action. After such destruction many problems in resettlement often arise.

If one says that the smoke aroze, it clearly does not mean that the smoke 'stood up'.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 09:55:05 AM by Tom Bishop »