The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2019, 09:23:03 AM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
It's clearly referencing the equivalence principle.
How so?  It seems to me that the biblical claim of "fixed and immovable" is pretty much the exact opposite of the FE "constant acceleration" claim.
As far as those on the surface are concerned, it is fixed and immovable - meaning they can choose their preferred frame of reference. In so much as it does move from other frames of reference, it's fixed and immovable from its path and its jerk is 0. You see a similar argument in biblical literalists that are round earthers who claim it is fixed and immovable within its orbit. The passage is talking about the permanence of God's work, most notably the Earth itself.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2019, 10:01:03 AM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
It's clearly referencing the equivalence principle.
How so?  It seems to me that the biblical claim of "fixed and immovable" is pretty much the exact opposite of the FE "constant acceleration" claim.
As far as those on the surface are concerned, it is fixed and immovable - meaning they can choose their preferred frame of reference. In so much as it does move from other frames of reference, it's fixed and immovable from its path and its jerk is 0. You see a similar argument in biblical literalists that are round earthers who claim it is fixed and immovable within its orbit. The passage is talking about the permanence of God's work, most notably the Earth itself.

If you start making interpretations then you are not reading the bible literally anymore. The bible says that the earth is immovable and fixed on its foundation. That goes for both FE and RE bible "literalist".
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2019, 10:19:59 AM »
The foundation is also accelerating in UA.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2019, 11:05:41 AM »
That stationary earth Bible verse translates differently in different versions of the Bible.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Chronicles/16/30

Quote
1 Chronicles 16:30

New American Standard Bible

"Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved."

King James Version

"Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Holman Bible

"tremble before Him, all the earth. The world is firmly established; it cannot be shaken."

It is arguable that the Bible more closely aligns with the idea that the earth is rising upwards than the stationary earth theory: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 11:11:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2019, 11:30:17 AM »
To me biblical cosmology is that of a static flat earth. Not rotating, not orbiting ad not rising upwards, just not moving.

Nothing in the bible indicates that the earth is a rotating sphere.Biblical apologist started interpreting some verses of the bible as suggesting a rotating sphere only after it had been discovered the the earth is a rotating sphere.

Likewise nothing in the bible suggest that the earth is constantly accelerating upwards. This interpretation  came about only after UA was developed. FES is interpreting the bible to fit UA theory.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2019, 12:12:48 PM »
So did the stationary earth concept exist before those very few phrases in the Bible were interpreted to mean that, or after?

The clear thing to do would be to compile the interpretations together, the associated concordance definitions which show how the words are used elsewhere, and see which ones fit better with the context of the Bible.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2019, 12:27:10 PM »
If the writers of the bible thought that the earth is moving upwards, they would have clearly stated it, but they didn't.  However I think the verse by verse approach is wrong. In order to understand biblical cosmology you have to look at the whole picture. Then you get something like this:



This cosmology seems to me fundamentally incompatible with UA. Maybe it's just me, or maybe not: Did any of the scholars researching biblical cosmology pointed at an upwards accelerating earth? I haven't found any.

And there's of course the book of Enoch, which clarifies a lot of things.
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markjo

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2019, 12:50:19 PM »
So did the stationary earth concept exist before those very few phrases in the Bible were interpreted to mean that, or after?
I'm guessing that they didn't really put too much thought into it back then, but if they did then I would say probably yes.  As I recall, back then they believed that things fell to the ground because it was the intrinsic nature of things to do so.

So, did the upwards accelerating earth concept exist before Einstein and his equivalence principle?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 12:53:41 PM by markjo »
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2019, 01:07:59 PM »
Science can also prove basically nothing about the world. Seems like its on even footing. Why are you for circular logic when its used to justify science, but not the bible?
No, it is on vastly different footings.
So far science has been shown to be the best tool available to determine the truth. This is due to it actually working rather than just appealing to what is written down in some ancient book.
It using inductive reasoning doesn't make it any more circular than any other form of reasoning.
So if you want to dismiss everything as circular reasoning go ahead.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2019, 02:26:40 PM »
If the writers of the bible thought that the earth is moving upwards, they would have clearly stated it, but they didn't.

It appears to me that they did:

Isaiah 24:

The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again

1 Kings 2:

"As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, 'I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man.'"

Hebrews 1:3 AMP

"The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s [a]Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. "

NAH 1:5 YLT

"Mountains have shaken because of Him, And the hills have been melted; And lifted up is the earth at His presence, And the world and all dwelling in it. "

Quote
And there's of course the book of Enoch, which clarifies a lot of things.

Yes, it does. It says that the Earth is being pushed up by winds:

https://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-18/

"3. I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven."

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2019, 04:20:47 PM »
If the writers of the bible thought that the earth is moving upwards, they would have clearly stated it, but they didn't.

It appears to me that they did:

Isaiah 24:

The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again

1 Kings 2:

"As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, 'I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man.'"

Hebrews 1:3 AMP

"The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s [a]Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. "

NAH 1:5 YLT

"Mountains have shaken because of Him, And the hills have been melted; And lifted up is the earth at His presence, And the world and all dwelling in it. "

Quote
And there's of course the book of Enoch, which clarifies a lot of things.

Yes, it does. It says that the Earth is being pushed up by winds:

https://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-18/

"3. I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven."

Isn't Isaiah 24 a prophecy of the destruction of the earth. How does a prophecy of earthquakes and other catastrophes relate to UA?

For 1 Kings 2, I don't get what is the relationship with UA.

Hebrews 1:3 is very far fetched and I'm not sure which translation you are using. This is the one I found:
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"
To uphold is not to accelerate upwards. Isn't that to hold something in place?

NAH 1:5 Again destruction prophecy concerning Niniveh, hardly anything to do with upwards accelerating earth.

The bible also speaks of waters above the heaven and under the earth. In the biblical cosmology the earth is surrounded by waters. Just like in Babylonian or other ancient middle east cosmologies, the Hebrews didn't have the concept of empty space we have today. Can UA push on  təhôm, the great deep?

There also bible verses which would indicate the sun rises from a gate at the eastern edge of the world and sets at another gate on the west, as opposed to FE model with only south edge. The book of Enoch further confirms the portals and northern edges of the world are cited as well.  All in all the book of Enoch seems to have a lot of things which contradict modern FE.

Of Enoch 18 I found different translations, winds are said to support or bear the earth and heaven, as in carrying its weight, not to lift it, or accelerate it. The winds are also said to be released from storehouses and then be placed between heaven and earth. Again I don't see any support for UA, but I guess one should look at the Hebrew word used.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 04:22:23 PM by kopfverderber »
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2019, 05:28:55 PM »
Just out of curiosity, doesn't the verse about the earth being "fixed and immovable" contradict the whole notion of Universal Acceleration?
It's clearly referencing the equivalence principle.
How so?  It seems to me that the biblical claim of "fixed and immovable" is pretty much the exact opposite of the FE "constant acceleration" claim.
As far as those on the surface are concerned, it is fixed and immovable - meaning they can choose their preferred frame of reference. In so much as it does move from other frames of reference, it's fixed and immovable from its path and its jerk is 0. You see a similar argument in biblical literalists that are round earthers who claim it is fixed and immovable within its orbit. The passage is talking about the permanence of God's work, most notably the Earth itself.

If you start making interpretations then you are not reading the bible literally anymore. The bible says that the earth is immovable and fixed on its foundation. That goes for both FE and RE bible "literalist".
All reading requires interpretation, whether or not it is the results of an experiment or the take on the most widely spread source of knowledge ever. Really, any history does. I am reminded of Foucault when he relays this experience:
Quote
“This book first arose out of a passage in [Jorge Luis] Borges, out of the laughter that shattered, as I read the passage, all the familiar landmarks of my thought—our thought that bears the stamp of our age and our geography—breaking up all the ordered surfaces and all the planes with which we are accustomed to tame the wild profusion of existing things, and continuing long afterwards to disturb and threaten with collapse our age-old distinction between the Same and the Other. This passage quotes a ‘certain Chinese encyclopaedia’ in which it is written that ‘animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) suckling pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (l) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off look like flies’. In the wonderment of this taxonomy, the thing we apprehend in one great leap, the thing that, by means of the fable, is demonstrated as the exotic charm of another system of thought, is the limitation of our own, the stark impossibility of thinking that.”
If an encyclopedia is so hard to parse, what then of the musings of our physical philosophers?

So did the stationary earth concept exist before those very few phrases in the Bible were interpreted to mean that, or after?
As you know Scott went at this a bit; I'm not sure he was successful and we only have its own ouvre to consider making the task difficult. I'm open to more details.

If the writers of the bible thought that the earth is moving upwards, they would have clearly stated it, but they didn't.

It appears to me that they did:

Isaiah 24:

The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again

1 Kings 2:

"As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, 'I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man.'"

Hebrews 1:3 AMP

"The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s [a]Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. "

NAH 1:5 YLT

"Mountains have shaken because of Him, And the hills have been melted; And lifted up is the earth at His presence, And the world and all dwelling in it. "

Quote
And there's of course the book of Enoch, which clarifies a lot of things.

Yes, it does. It says that the Earth is being pushed up by winds:

https://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-18/

"3. I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven."

Nevermind - well met. I must spend some time ruminating again on this.


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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2019, 06:26:16 PM »
@kopfverderber In the Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary? thread I run those verses, including Hebrews 1:3, through the concordance indexes and find that the words in the verses mean lifting and carrying.

I don't see what the "that's about the upcoming destruction of the earth, so it doesn't count" argument is about. When the Earth is destroyed God is depicting that the earth will shake, be broken asunder, and fall, 'never to rise again'. Seems to imply that the earth is normally rising.

"Going the way of all the earth" is an interesting coin-of-phrase for people who believe that they are going to heaven when they die.

In regards to the Book of Enoch and the winds which "bear up the earth", are you now saying that the Earth is wind-hovering in place, perfectly stationary on winds? Interesting that God would create such complexity to do that, rather than to use the winds to push the Earth for a purpose. We should look that one up in a concordance index as well. I am unable to find a source for the untranslated version, however.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 06:39:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2019, 07:17:04 PM »
We should look that one up in a concordance index as well. I am unable to find a source for the untranslated version, however.

Probably showing my ignorance on the subject, but isn’t a concordance in regard to a specific translation, eg., KJV? If so, I don’t see how a concordance elucidates a deeper, wider meaning. When it’s specific to a ‘version’.

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2019, 07:21:28 PM »
Come now Bishop, surely you wouldn't hang your hat on a "god wouldn't make a lamp ten thousands miles away to light his desk" argument. Obviously, there is enough complexity to go around. Yes - some analytical take on common words might be wise. I fear we are dealing with an inexorability of language between what might be said as 'sacred' and what we as man can so called "proved" (not 'proven').  After all, it is ineffable, and beyond us and Job. There is a circularity to what we speak, that retains its possibilities and truthfulness as new facts come to light.

More than that, we have the situation where again and again the scripture presented us with the truth - and the apologists had to define it to be palatable. I won't bury those that bring us to the light.

Also, I realize this must be odd.

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2019, 07:22:06 PM »
But also: let's feed all versions of the bible into our shakespeare engine.

Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2019, 10:09:28 PM »
That stationary earth Bible verse translates differently in different versions of the Bible.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Chronicles/16/30

Quote
1 Chronicles 16:30

New American Standard Bible

"Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved."

King James Version

"Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Holman Bible

"tremble before Him, all the earth. The world is firmly established; it cannot be shaken."

It is arguable that the Bible more closely aligns with the idea that the earth is rising upwards than the stationary earth theory: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0
For that to be true, earthquakes have to be a myth.
Have you experienced an earthquake?
And what does that say?
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2019, 12:51:45 AM »
@kopfverderber In the Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary? thread I run those verses, including Hebrews 1:3, through the concordance indexes and find that the words in the verses mean lifting and carrying.

I don't see what the "that's about the upcoming destruction of the earth, so it doesn't count" argument is about. When the Earth is destroyed God is depicting that the earth will shake, be broken asunder, and fall, 'never to rise again'. Seems to imply that the earth is normally rising.

"Going the way of all the earth" is an interesting coin-of-phrase for people who believe that they are going to heaven when they die.

In regards to the Book of Enoch and the winds which "bear up the earth", are you now saying that the Earth is wind-hovering in place, perfectly stationary on winds? Interesting that God would create such complexity to do that, rather than to use the winds to push the Earth for a purpose. We should look that one up in a concordance index as well. I am unable to find a source for the untranslated version, however.

I think reading a few verses in isolation is the wrong approach. If we approach the bible from a scholar perspective in order to study the biblical cosmology we need to look at it as a whole  in its ancient middle east context.

In doing so scholars are trying to answer the question: what did ancient Hebrews believe? Our current scientific understanding be it RE or UA is not really relevant to answer that question.

Did ancient Hebrews believe that the earth is flat? Yes. Did they believe that the earth is moving upwards? No, I don't think this is a tenable position. You might find a verse or two which could be interpreted in such a way, but such proposition would not be consistent with many other verses. The goal is to arrive to consistent cosmology.

A different approach is that of a bible literalist trying to make biblical cosmology fit their own world view. This is an almost impossible task for RE literalists. FE literalists on the other hand have a much easier time doing this, but it's not completely free of issues and certainly adding UA to the mix creates more issues. 

Regarding Hebrews 1:3. Biblical scholar tend to interpret  upholding (Φερων) as sustaining or preserving.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/1-3.htm

This interpretation is based not only on this particular verse, but considering other verses where the word Φερων is used.

On Isaiah 24:20.  If I fall not rise again, does it mean that I'm normally rising? I don't think so. The dead fall not to rise again.

The hebrew word used is qūm
Verb - Qal - Infinitive construct
Strong's Hebrew 6965: To arise, stand up, stand
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/24-20.htm

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2019, 02:20:01 AM »
@kopfverderber In the

"Going the way of all the earth" is an interesting coin-of-phrase for people who believe that they are going to heaven when they die.

In regards to the Book of Enoch and the winds which "bear up the earth", are you now saying that the Earth is wind-hovering in place, perfectly stationary on winds? Interesting that God would create such complexity to do that, rather than to use the winds to push the Earth for a purpose. We should look that one up in a concordance index as well. I am unable to find a source for the untranslated version, however.

To continue with the other citations. "Going the way of all the earth"  seems  just an expression, meaning he is dying so he going to the same place all people go when they die.
https://biblehub.com/1_kings/2-2.htm
the way
בְּדֶ֖רֶךְ (bə·ḏe·reḵ)
Preposition-b | Noun - common singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 1870: A road, a course of life, mode of action

For King David that place would be Sheol (underground), not heaven. We are reading David's words. Why would David  think he's going to heaven? If we are to interpret it in such a way, the obvious answer is David thinks he is going underground to Sheol.

For the book of Enoch I think you are focusing a lot on the use of "bear up" in some English translations. If you read the whole chapter:
- The winds contribute to preserve the foundation of the earth.
- The winds bear up the earth and the firmament
- The winds occupy the sky between heaven and earth.
- The winds turn the sky, cause sun and stars to set, support the clouds.

To me it doesn't look like the wind is a force lifting the earth from underneath, and that's just looking at this section. If we take Enoch as whole would all of it be consistent with UA? Or we need to pick a single sentence and forget all the rest?

Other versions of Enoch 18:3 go like this:
En. 18:3 And I saw how the winds stretch out the height of heaven. They stand between earth and heaven; they are the pillars of heaven.

It looks like Enoch is addressing Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke. He's trying to explain what those pillars are.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 02:26:04 AM by kopfverderber »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2019, 03:06:47 AM »
We should look that one up in a concordance index as well. I am unable to find a source for the untranslated version, however.

Probably showing my ignorance on the subject, but isn’t a concordance in regard to a specific translation, eg., KJV? If so, I don’t see how a concordance elucidates a deeper, wider meaning. When it’s specific to a ‘version’.

Strong's Concordance aggregates meaning for how a word is used elsewhere throughout the bible. We can see that it's not merely a word-by-word translation by comparing the verses to the concordance definitions. For example, Isiah 11:12 in the KJV says four 'corners' of the earth whereas Strong's Concordance defines that word as more generally to 'extremities' or 'wings', even though Strong's is based on KJV and that word appeared elsewhere in KJV as 'corners'.

Isaiah 11:12 King James Version (KJV)

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

BibleHub Lexicon

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/isaiah/11-12.htm



Clicking on the concordance link:

Quote
Strong's Concordance
kanaph: wing, extremity
Original Word: כָּנָף
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kanaph
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-nawf')
Definition: wing, extremity

~

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

bird, border, corner, end, feathered, flying, one another, overspreading,
From kanaph; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle -- + bird, border, corner, end, feather(-ed), X flying, + (one an-)other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing((-ed)).

see HEBREW kanaph

Someone might have interpreted a certain word in a certain verse in a certain context to mean 'corners' depending on their own state of mind and what they thought the Bible was trying to convey, or perhaps a particular cosmology they thought the Bible had, but Strong's provides an independent check to show us how else the word is used and how it is most generally used.

From the exhaustive definitions it could mean 'corners' (perhaps from the same verse in question), but we see that it is used in other contexts and that corners isn't the main way it is used.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 03:29:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2019, 03:35:34 AM »
Quote
I think reading a few verses in isolation is the wrong approach

And yet the stationary earth position is to present us with a singular 'will not be moved' verse which Strong's translates as 'will not be tottered'.

Quote
Did ancient Hebrews believe that the earth is flat? Yes. Did they believe that the earth is moving upwards? No, I don't think this is a tenable position.

Then why do they say that the earth is rising?

Young's Literal Translation told us

NAH 1:5

"Mountains have shaken because of Him, And the hills have been melted; And lifted up is the earth at His presence, And the world and all dwelling in it."

It certainly sounds like the earth is being lifted up as long as God is present (always). Strong's verifies the word as lift: https://biblehub.com/lexicon/nahum/1-5.htm

Quote
Regarding Hebrews 1:3. Biblical scholar tend to interpret  upholding (Φερων) as sustaining or preserving.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/1-3.htm

The word "upholds" is Strong's G5342 - pherō or pherōn, which means to bring and carry.

From: https://biblehub.com/lexicon/hebrews/1-3.htm



https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5342&t=NASB

Quote
Outline of Biblical Usage:

I. to carry

Strong’s Definitions:

φέρω phérō, fer'-o; a primary verb (for which other, and apparently not cognate ones are used in certain tenses only; namely, οἴω oíō oy'-o; and ἐνέγκω enénkō en-eng'-ko; to "bear" or carry (in a very wide application, literally and figuratively, as follows):—be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come, + let her drive, be driven, endure, go on, lay, lead, move, reach, rushing, uphold.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

1. to carry

Examples of Strong's G5342 from the Bible shows that the word is used in the context of bringing and carrying:

Mar 11:2 NASB

" and *said to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, on which no one yet has ever sat; untie it and bring [G5342] it here. "

Luk 5:18c NASB

" And some men were carrying [G5342] on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him. "

Luk 24:1  NASB

" But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing [G5342] the spices which they had prepared. "

Jhn 21:10 NASB

" Jesus *said to them, “Bring [G5342] some of the fish which you have now caught.” "

It seems that this verse could be interpreted as the earth being taken somewhere.

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On Isaiah 24:20.  If I fall not rise again, does it mean that I'm normally rising? I don't think so. The dead fall not to rise again.

So in the Earth's destruction the Earth literally shakes, it is literally split asunder, but it figuratively falls, 'never to rise again'?

Seems like you have stopped taking the Bible literally at some point to satisfy your own cosmology.

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For the book of Enoch I think you are focusing a lot on the use of "bear up" in some English translations. If you read the whole chapter:
- The winds contribute to preserve the foundation of the earth.
- The winds bear up the earth and the firmament
- The winds occupy the sky between heaven and earth.
- The winds turn the sky, cause sun and stars to set, support the clouds.

I would suggest looking it up in a concordance index to see how the term is used elsewhere in the Bible.

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Other versions of Enoch 18:3 go like this:
En. 18:3 And I saw how the winds stretch out the height of heaven. They stand between earth and heaven; they are the pillars of heaven.

It looks like Enoch is addressing Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke. He's trying to explain what those pillars are.

Usually the Stationary Earth theorists tell us that the pillars are solid structures that the earth rests upon. If the pillars are winds then it makes less sense that the earth is stationary.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 04:23:49 AM by Tom Bishop »

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JackBlack

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2019, 04:24:22 AM »
So in the Earth's destruction the Earth literally shakes, it is literally split asunder, but it figuratively falls, 'never to rise again'?
It doesn't need to be figurative.
The falling of the dead and them not rising again from the metaphor comes from physical reality. People when killed/when they die can fall down, i.e. literally fall. When people are alive, if they fall, they can rise again, i.e. stand up.

As a simple comparison, if you put a plate on a table, such that it is being held up firmly by the table, then I come and knock it down, making it fall to the floor and have smashed into many tiny pieces, and have it never to rise again (back onto the table), does that mean it was moving upwards? No.
Not rising again just means the affect of the fall wont be negated.

As for the initial time it "rose" that would be when God first made it and placed it.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2019, 04:26:53 AM »
So in the Earth's destruction the Earth literally shakes, it is literally split asunder, but it figuratively falls, 'never to rise again'?
It doesn't need to be figurative.
The falling of the dead and them not rising again from the metaphor comes from physical reality. People when killed/when they die can fall down, i.e. literally fall. When people are alive, if they fall, they can rise again, i.e. stand up.

Sounds like motion to me.

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2019, 04:34:28 AM »
" and *said to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, on which no one yet has ever sat; untie it and bring [G5342] it here. "

Luk 5:18c NASB

" And some men were carrying [G5342] on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him. "

Luk 24:1  NASB

" But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing [G5342] the spices which they had prepared. "

Jhn 21:10 NASB

" Jesus *said to them, “Bring [G5342] some of the fish which you have now caught.” "

It seems that this verse could be interpreted as the earth being taken somewhere.

I don't think the meaning in Heb 1:3 is "bring" or implies movement, it's sounds more like the third option in your link "to bear up i.e. uphold (keep from falling)".

A basic difference with the other verses is that a destination is provided when the meaning is "bring", otherwise it makes no sense. Where is the earth being brought to in Heb 1:3? There is nothing to indicate that the earth is being lifted.

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So in the Earth's destruction the Earth literally shakes, it is literally split asunder, but it figuratively falls, 'never to rise again'?

Seems like you have stopped taking the bible literally at some point to satisfy your own cosmology.
My own cosmology is RE, which is not present in the bible.

The verse can be read literally as the earth falling. As if the earth breaks and the foundations break and stay broken for ever. When you are staying and you fall, then you rise to your staying position. The verse doesn't imply that the earth was rising before falling.

The Hebrew word used for "rise"  qūm literally means to arise, stand up or to stand:
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6965.htm.

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I would suggest looking it up in a concordance index to see how the term is used elsewhere in the Bible.

That's more difficult to do for non-canonical books. Enoch is thought to be written originally in Hebrew, but no copy has survived. There are some bits in Aramaic, Greek and Latin and then you have the Ethiopian manuscripts.

In this link I found some discussion of Enoch 18:3
https://archive.org/details/cu31924067146773/page/n155

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Usually the Stationary Earth theorists tell us that the pillars are solid structures that the earth rests upon. If the pillars are winds then it makes less sense that the earth is stationary.
I think those might be  different pillars, here's about pillars sustaining the heavens, not the earth. I think Enoch is just trying to make sense out of Job's verse.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 04:37:27 AM by kopfverderber »
You must gather your party before venturing forth

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2019, 04:46:24 AM »
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The Hebrew word used for "rise"  qūm literally means to arise, stand up or to stand:
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6965.htm.

Top NASB definitions seem to be rising-related.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 04:48:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

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JackBlack

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2019, 04:55:27 AM »
Top NASB definitions seem to be rising-related.
Yes, but not in the continuous sense.
Rise in the sense of standing up, or putting on a table.

As if God has placed the world in its place.
And when he decides to destroy it (again/more), he will knock it down and it will not rise again to its current location, it will stay down.

Arise does not mean continually move up.

When you rise from a seated position, you end up in a standing position, you don't keep going up and up and up.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 05:01:05 AM by JackBlack »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2019, 05:04:30 AM »
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arise

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Definition of arise
intransitive verb

1a: to begin to occur or to exist : to come into being or to attention
Problems arise when people try to avoid responsibility.
A conflict arose because of a misunderstanding.
Questions have arisen concerning the company's financial records.
He can defend himself should the need arise. [=if it becomes necessary to do so]
b: to originate from a source
arteries that arise from the aorta
a river that arises from two main sources

2: to get up or stand up : RISE
He arose from his chair.
especially : to get up from sleep or after lying down
He arose (from bed) refreshed after a good night's sleep.

3: to move upward : ASCEND
A mist arose from the valley.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/arises

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arise[ uh-rahyz ]
verb (used without object), a·rose, a·ris·en  [uh-riz-uhn] , a·ris·ing.

to get up from sitting, lying, or kneeling; rise:
He arose from his chair when she entered the room.

to awaken; wake up:
He arose at sunrise to get an early start to the beach.

to move upward; mount; ascend:
A thin curl of smoke arose lazily from the cabin.

to come into being, action, or notice; originate; appear; spring up:
New problems arise daily.

to result or proceed; spring or issue (sometimes followed by from):
It is difficult to foresee the consequences that may arise from this action. After such destruction many problems in resettlement often arise.

Seems pretty vague. The natural phenomena examples in the above definitions involve mist and smoke, which are given in the context of ascending. A UFO which rises out of a ditch into outer space could also be described as "arising"

The word 'rise' and 'rose' are also ranked highly in the NASB definitions.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 05:09:49 AM by Tom Bishop »

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2019, 05:04:45 AM »
Quote
The Hebrew word used for "rise"  qūm literally means to arise, stand up or to stand:
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6965.htm.

Top NASB definitions seem to be rising-related.



Most uses seem be about arising after lying down or kneeling, rising against something (violently)  and so on. I don't really see much support of UA here.

I think you are just projecting UA on bronze age and iron age texts.
You must gather your party before venturing forth

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17920
Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2019, 05:16:07 AM »
Most uses seem be about arising after lying down or kneeling, rising against something (violently)  and so on. I don't really see much support of UA here.

I think you are just projecting UA on bronze age and iron age texts.

It could be a bronze age text attempting to describe something advanced as UA.

Einstein thought that it was pretty weird that bodies fell without inertial resistance, as if the Earth were accelerating upwards. That's why he came up with the Equivalence Principle. If the Bible has phrases about the earth rising and being lifted, then it seems to be scriptural confirmation of a widely-held principle of physics.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 05:20:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

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kopfverderber

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Re: The Bible doesn't prove the Earth is flat.
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2019, 06:05:35 AM »
Most uses seem be about arising after lying down or kneeling, rising against something (violently)  and so on. I don't really see much support of UA here.

I think you are just projecting UA on bronze age and iron age texts.

It could be a bronze age text attempting to describe something advanced as UA.

Einstein thought that it was pretty weird that bodies fell without inertial resistance, as if the Earth were accelerating upwards. That's why he came up with the Equivalence Principle. If the Bible has phrases about the earth rising and being lifted, then it seems to be scriptural confirmation of a widely-held principle of physics.

I guess with enough imagination and creative interpretation you can make the bible ascribe to any theory. Muslims are specially good at this, some claim the quran predicts  space travel.
You must gather your party before venturing forth