Question addressed to the admin/mods

Everyday we have to deal here with two paid shills (eight hours a day, full time job) who are absolutely incorrigible and unrelenting in spreading lies.

There is nothing that the FES can do for them anymore: they are not here to learn but only to provide an unrelenting daily output of blatant lies.

The other FE website does not have to deal with them, and it shows.

No other forum would tolerate such a situation.

rabinoz and his alt (jackblack) cannot be changed, there is nothing the FES can do for them anymore, so good riddance then.

At worst, have them post only in the lower forums, at best, ban them for good.


Is there a special reason why you john, or scg, or boydster allow this nonsense to go on here unabated?

They have been here for years now, thousands and thousands of messages which contain only lies, on a daily basis, uninterrupted.

Why does the FES have to put up with this?

What they have done, even though they could not convince anyone here, is to stall the entire flat earth research process, no new topic can be presented to be discussed in a civilized manner.

If they will never change, and just be a daily nuissance, my question is this: why do we have to put up with them?

Did you sign a special contract when you became an admin or a mod to allow these two to troll this forum on a daily basis? And if not, what is stopping you to simply get rid of them?

Perhaps the issue is that the Flat Earth Society has not yet been started, in which the website and forum's purpose and activities are designed and organized in a democratic fashion by its FE'ers. This is the only conceivable way forward.

At present the society is basically a place where people go to print out a certificate and a forum where basically anything goes. That's certainly not how any other society or club operates. Its active members should be able to choose what they want it to be and what activities they want to operate.

Which Flat Earth Society said and voted on the idea that we want endless free-for-all debate with the unwashed masses? If there is debate, perhaps the FES wants it to be organized or structured. Perhaps there are many other alternative activities it could be running and focusing on. That should be for the FES to decide.

That's my recommendation, which will solve all problems and satisfy all proponents. Start the Flat Earth Society.

Everyday we have to deal here with two paid shills (eight hours a day, full time job) who are absolutely incorrigible and unrelenting in spreading lies.

Please name these "paid shills".

I think it is basically that society's disease is its being a controlled opposition. It probably goes to older dates. at this point, there is a possibility that the character of John Davis is actually a planned and designed person for this job. frankly, the dialogue among the management level is limited and not convincing. when they talk about something about themselves or about among themselves, it is less likely to be true, more likely to be a scenario. In this respect, it seems like these salaried persons are also part of this scenario in the case.

So far, the reflexes that society administration has shown about ordinary situations show that it is not a real flat earth society, but tries to place it on a line that imitates it and mocks people. The attitudes of the two salaried shill here coincide with the attitudes of the moderation and admin team and become part of it. at this point, I do not think that the question in the opening call will be answered in real terms. the incoming response will be an answer which inaccurate, or mocked to facts.

The reality that we have to see at this point is that many groups formed much later than this society passed through this society very quickly and were more successful. So much so that, we can clearly say that The Flat Earth Society be pale in comparison to the other societies whose have been created years and years later. The society is immobile and inactive as if it were frozen. Despite all the well-intentioned efforts of the true believers in society, community management is committed to showing absurd attitudes as if it proves that this society is not part of this movement.

There is no chance that John Davis or space cowgirl can direct things on their own initiative. frankly they do their duties just like the other two. Even Daniel Shenton's name similarity with Samuel Shenton proves how planned and absurd the event is. that name has also been produced, expired, no longer needed and no longer used. where's daniel? Oh, sure, at sea.

If we throw everything to wind then we can clearly say that John and scg have never a chance to chance / decide anything. clearly, there is a supreme institution that forces them to behave in this way, and these two act according to their orders. in this respect, just as puppets cannot move without the knowledge and order of its owner.

Hence, John and scg are not the main interlocutors of the question here. the parent institution is the addressee of this question. The institution resident in maryland where scg lives should make this decision. after that, will they continue to block things with this strange attitude, or will they act according to the facts? this community is totally out of the game. people come to learn the thoughts of only two people from the outside. some of the rest of the believer people either disappeared among the crowd, and some others are not sincere.

We can save this society. we can reintegrate it into the game. accept some things and leave life to the usual flow.

Best regards.

Let me exemplify what is going, and what we, the FE, have to deal with on a daily basis.

This is just from today, minutes ago (remember, these two shills have been posting in a similar manner for years here now):

Only a moron or a dishonest scumbag would subtract.

Quote from: sandokhan on September 12, 2019, 10:05:06 PM

CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA:

2(V₁L₁ + V₂L₂)/c²

If that is the "CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA" please explain why all of Michelson, Sagnac, Silberstein, Paolo Maranez and Jean-Pierre Zendri all disagree with your expression!

Quote from: sandokhan

As such, your analysis is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, and not at all the SAGNAC EFFECT.

Incorrect! Go and read up on the Coriolis acceleration and it's nothing like what you claim!

Obviously, there is NOTHING that anyone here can do to please these two shills.

Why then is their presence still tolerated on this forum?

They are sabotaging this forum, the flat earth society, on a daily basis.

Their displeasure with the flat earth theory is unrelenting.

Both shills are very annoyed with this forum.

Then, john and scg and boydster, why should we continue this "relationship" where nothing can be done anymore to please these two shills?

They are not here to learn, but only to deny, to do anything they can on a daily basis to disrupt this forum.

Would anyone else, anywhere else on the internet, allow such a state of affairs?

Of course not.

Am I missing something here?
Between you, you don’t want to be challenged, you don’t like the moderation, it isn’t the society you want, surely the answer is to pool your talents and set “that” society up, rather than carp about what others have done?

There's nothing that any of us here can do for these two paid shills.

If you invite someone in your own home, who then complains daily about you, even spits in your face, no matter what you do, would you let that person to live with you anymore?

Of course not.

There is no "challenge".

Only a constant, daily denying of ANYTHING.

These two are very unhappy here.

Nothing that we can do can please them.

The other website does not have to deal with them; nobody in their right mind would.

I have already debunked their amateurish 'arguments' a long time ago.

All they are doing now is sabotaging this forum.

I want to know why the admin and mods GO ALONG WITH THIS SORT OF PLAN.

Would it be better if all of us here, the FE, just stop responding or posting anything, so that the mods themselves start to have to deal with rabinoz/jackblack?

Would any other forum allow this sort of sabotaging to go on unabated?

What "challenge" have these two ever put up, really?

NOTHING AT ALL.

I can debunk their drivel in less than 10 seconds.

But they are allowed to troll this forum on a daily basis, even though they will never change their ways.

A lose-lose proposition for the FES.

They will NEVER change, they are here just to deny, eight hours a day: who in the world would do this to themselves, like we do here? Frankly, there is nothing that the FES can do anymore for these two shills.

It has become a daily nightmare to have to respond to the very same arguments they used some years ago.

Just take a look at the fresh responses from today: how is that a challenge, and not plain trolling, while the admin/mods look the other way?

No moderators to remind them, at least, that already their failed arguments were answered.

Question: why do the admin and mods put up with this unnecessary situation?

If rabinoz/jackblack is not happy here, then let them go, ban them for good.

We want the like button here.

Such a wrong practice can only be the work of an institution whose whole life is based on mistakes. These two are not happy here, and anything doesn't make them happy, they don't make me happy, don't make the visitor happy. they prevent visitors and writers from entering the dialogue. they prevent visitors from asking questions. The questions of the visitors disappear between the questions of these two.

There are hundreds of millions of believers out there. is it that the world turns into a more rounded place when the two of them constantly deal with us a few believers less than ten, make fun of us, and do similar things?

Is there a special reason why you john, or scg, or boydster allow this nonsense to go on here unabated?

The only reason is that this is a forum meant for debate. We don't ban people for debating.

I miss a lot of JackBlack's insulting comments because I find him so boring that I usually scroll through without reading. He shouldn't be sprinkling insults inside his replies. I have banned him for 3 days.

rab is an old guy with nothing to do in real life. He spends all day every day here. He rarely actually breaks the rules, but when he does I give him a few days off.

Thanks for your reply.

But they are NOT debating anymore.

There is no "debate".

rabinoz by now has templates (believe or not) which he uses for every response. That is, he doesn't care if he receives a reply which does answer his argument, not at all (as if in a normal debate). He will immediately post the next hour or the next day THE VERY SAME argument, as if nothing happened.

And this can't go on anymore.

There is no debating anymore with these two shills: they are very unhappy here, an everyday nuissance which nobody needs to deal with.

Their goal is to sabotage this forum for good.

They get away with quite a lot, no one else would tolerate such a behaviour.

So, with these two there is no debating anymore: they lack the skills to debate, they get away with posting the very same arguments, over and over again, ad nauseam, while they should get banned for pulling off such a scheme on us here.

If he's spamming the same message over and over then by all means, report the incident.

I find them both a detriment to actual debate, and I agree with your analysis of them, sandokhan.

Maybe we should have a discussion about the rules of the forum. I try to be fair when I am issuing bans and warnings. I don't think it is ever a good idea to have too strict rules. I've seen many forums wither away because they are over moderated. We have to find the balance between letting people speak freely, but not so freely that they end up clogging the forum with crap.

Perhaps we should moderate the debate forum more strictly. FE General has always been a bit more loose, but debate was supposed to be strictly moderated. We've allowed the debate forum to become the same as the general forum. 

Let me give you an example.

Again, this is not out of some Kafkaesque nightmare, but is going on right here on this forum.

Incorrect! I would believe General relativistic Sagnac formula revised by Paolo Maraner · Jean-Pierre Zendri before anything you wrote.
He first presents the usual result, without relativistic correction at the start:
                           https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9ihm45mdja08au/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%20by%20Paolo%20Maraner%20%C2%B7%20Jean-Pierre%20Zendri%20-%20Fig.%201.png?dl=1

And then, you will be glad to know that they did a general analysis including relativistic effects for a Sagnac Loop rotating about a point a distance R outside the loop.
Here is their result:
                            https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1t6uxf1nw8w6b4/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%20by%20Paolo%20Maraner%20%C2%B7%20Jean-Pierre%20Zendri.png?dl=1
had they not used the relativistic correction the loop delay would have been independent of the centre of rotation

So I'll stick to believing this:

Quote from: rabinoz on July 08, 2018, 08:18:32 PM

That paper did not give the rotation rate, just the stability etc.
But this paper does: Ring-Lasers seismic rotational sensing, Angela Di Virgilio-INFN-Pisa

Of course, I immediately pointed out that Zendri and Maraner presented the Coriolis effect formula with relativistic terms added:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76685.msg2076540#msg2076540


Any sane person would understand and simply move on to something else.

But not rabinoz.

Quote from: rabinoz on February 17, 2019, 06:33:26 PM

But this paper gives a the simple analysis and then a General Relativistic analysis for a loop with the centre of rotation far outside: General relativistic Sagnac formula revised by Paolo Maraner · Jean-Pierre Zendri
He first presents the usual result, without relativistic correction at the start:
                            https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9ihm45mdja08au/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%20by%20Paolo%20Maraner%20%C2%B7%20Jean-Pierre%20Zendri%20-%20Fig.%201.png?dl=1

And then, you will be glad to know that they did a general analysis including relativistic effects for a Sagnac Loop rotating about a point a distance R outside the loop.
Here is their result:
                            https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1t6uxf1nw8w6b4/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%20by%20Paolo%20Maraner%20%C2%B7%20Jean-Pierre%20Zendri.png?dl=1
had they not used the relativistic correction the loop delay would have been independent of the centre of rotation.

Imagine, being faced with the same argument you debunked before.

This is what I call the unrelentless effort to sabotage this forum.

This is not debating anymore, but pure trolling.

Of course, I had to answer his argument again:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79637.msg2147398#msg2147398


Again, anyone else would understand and not present the very same argument yet again.

But not rabinoz.

Quote from: rabinoz on August 26, 2019, 01:57:37 AM

You might read the General Relativistic analysis for a Sagnac loop: General Relativistic Sagnac formula revised by Paolo Maraner · Jean-Pierre Zendri.

Again, I had to answer the same argument:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79931.msg2198088#msg2198088


Again, one might think that this is enough.

Not for rabinoz.

Quote from: rabinoz on September 06, 2019, 01:32:05 AM

Why does your expression for the Sagnac differ from that of Sagnac, Michelson, Silverstone, Mathpages and the "General relativistic Sagnac formula revised by Maraner and Zendri".
The latter does give a solution for a Sagnac device with the centre-of-rotation far from the loop see: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ov40a15kkr8uogv/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%2C%20Maraner%2C%20Zendri%20-%20eqn%20%2817%29.png?dl=1
Do you claim to be smarter than all these physicists?  The first order term agrees with the other solutions.

IS THIS DEBATING, or something else, perhaps the deliberate sabotaging of this forum?


Here is he at it again:

Quote from: rabinoz on August 28, 2019, 03:18:03 AM

And, of course, your expression can only be accurate when the centre of rotation is far outside the loop
so is not a general expression as is Maraner and Zendri's: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ov40a15kkr8uogv/General%20relativistic%20Sagnac%20formula%20revised%2C%20Maraner%2C%20Zendri%20-%20eqn%20%2817%29.png?dl=1

The admin and the mods should take note of this deliberate effort to sabotage a DEBATE, by delivering the same answer all over again, even though it was debunked the very first time.

I have to say that what usually makes me stop reading a thread is when Sandy turn up with reams of copy pasta that more often than not bears only a passing relevance to the discussion. To then accuse others of that is ironic.

It bears relevance when the RE make claims about gravity, relativity and such.

Then, I have to intervene to set things straight.

Certainly you have learned a lot, quite a lot from my messages over the years, material you won't find anywhere else.

Some RE are very stubborn and then I have to justify my answers using the necessary bibliography.

What rabinoz/jackblack does is to REPEAT the same argument as if they had not received an adequate response the very first time.

This is not debating, but trolling.

How would you respond to claims like this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83134.msg2202481#msg2202481

It was rabinoz who hijacked the thread, not me.

But of course you failed to notice that.

So, I had to respond to those claims.

Within that same thread, one RE said this also:

The Earth is shaped by gravitation that keeps it together, and by tectonics and rotation.

How would YOU respond to this?

Not by using ample bibliographic material to sustain an answer?

Which is exactly what I did.

Did I hijack the thread, or was it the RE themselves?

In a debate, once an argument has been debunked, you do not repeat all over again; what rabinoz does it to repeat again and again the very same information, ad nauseam, which is trolling not debating.

Here he is again at it:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83134.msg2203649#msg2203649

This is from just a few hours ago.

The same trolling techniques: he tells lies after lies; once he is caught, he reverses to the same arguments he used before, profiting from not being strictly moderated.

@Sandokan, @wise,

This approach of ban-this or change-this has been tried before. I have seen this thread many times. The only possible way to go is to have the FE'ers sign a petition that they want to be able to manage and design their own society democratically. If a majority of the FE want to change things, then it should be changed at the desire of the society. The admins have shown you already that they aren't going to change things for you. They might change things for all of us.

Space Cowgirl said that we should discuss it and agree on something. Sounds like a step towards what I suggested. I recommend going down that path. If this management-through-deliberation scheme can be organized then it will solve this problem and all future problems.

Stricter moderation of the debate subforum is a good suggestion.  I agree.

If you want to have a discussion without the evil rounders though, there is the believer's subforum.

Addtionally, Sandokhan, I don't want to name names here but there are some flat earthers here that this criticism of excessive copypasta would apply to just as much if not more than Rab.  I think a fair amount of tolerance is in order to promote open discussion.

Here is another unbelievable instance of cognitive dissonance on the part of rabinoz.

Obviously, he is unable, psychologically, to face up to reality.

Why, then, should we the FE act as caretakers?

Here is what he said today:

No lies there because, whatever you say, "The current theory as to the cause of gravitation is as described in Einstein's Theory of General Relativity."


Sorry, but Einstein's equations can certainly be applied to Mercury's perihelion, gravitational lensing and to the bending of light.

But I posted the denial by Einstein himself that his equations do not have a bounded dynamic solution (gravitational wave solution):



Can there be something more obvious than this?

Einstein knew in 1936 that his equations do not have a bounded dynamic solution.


Does this constitute as solid proof?

Sure it does.

But rabinoz cannot face reality.

Again here are his words:

Sorry, but Einstein's equations can certainly be applied to Mercury's perihelion, gravitational lensing and to the bending of light.

He is lying to his readers, even though his statement had been previously debunked using the very quote from Einstein himself.

If you do not have a bounded dynamic solution, then obviously one cannot apply those equations to DYNAMIC SITUATIONS, such as Mercury's perihelion.

In 1921, the chairman of the Nobel prize committee, A. Gullstrand, REFUSED to give Einstein the Nobel prize in physics since he found out that there is no dynamic solution to his equations, and failed to receive an answer from Einstein himself.

In fact here is the mathematical proof that the original Einstein gravitational equations do not have a dynamic bounded solution:


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2196454#msg2196454

https://cirworld.com/index.php/jap/article/view/354

See also:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2194825#msg2194825


Solid proofs.


But rabinoz cannot face reality, be it from a psychological cause.


He will lie again and again, using the same arguments which were clearly debunked before.


He cannot understand, or will not accept the fact that Einstein's original equations cannot be used for many body problems (such as Mercury's perihelion).

What then are we the FE supposed to do here?

To repeat all over again the same proofs which debunk his failed claims.

This is no longer debating, but having to deal with rabinoz' trolling.

Addtionally, Sandokhan, I don't want to name names here but there are some flat earthers here that this criticism of excessive copypasta would apply to just as much if not more than Rab.  I think a fair amount of tolerance is in order to promote open discussion.

How would you answer a clear hijacking of the thread?

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83134.msg2202481#msg2202481

Or this kind of statement:

The Earth is shaped by gravitation that keeps it together, and by tectonics and rotation.

How would YOU respond to this?

Not by using ample bibliographic material to sustain an answer?

Which is exactly what I did.


Let the RE try to debunk my arguments, the so called copy&pasta.

If they can, obviously I would not use them again.

That would be trolling.

Which is exactly what rabinoz does: he uses arguments which were debunked before all over again, which is trolling, not debating.

I posted above what he did several times.

And he does this with EVERY argument he uses in a debate.

Each of those arguments was debunked before.

Yet, he uses them again, as if nothing happened.

Obviously, a clear case of cognitive dissonance.

This is what I am saying: why should we on this forum right here act as caretakers for someone who REFUSES to face up to reality?

Do you understand what I am telling you?

He will never change, not after 20,000+ messages.

All he does is to sabotage on a daily basis this forum.

You think I would use the copy&pasta if he understood from the very first instance what is going on?

rabinoz is very unhappy here: why do we allow him to stay then?


I know which FE complained about my messages.

But I did not hijack those threads, the RE did.

In fact rabinoz himself:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83134.msg2202481#msg2202481

He uses the debunked lighthouse and Pontchartrain arguments again, even though they were debunked many times before.

It is his trolling which gave me the obligation to respond.

Whenever one of them derails a thread you should send me a message or report it. Messages work, I do not mind getting messages. Sometimes reports get buried by other reports. When you reply to a derail, you make it more difficult to moderate. There have been times when I wanted to clean up a thread, but it was so trashed I couldn't see the point.

If he's spamming then that's against the rules.

For disagreeing, not seeing the wisdom of your arguments, not accepting reality.  That's not really what the mods are supposed to do here.  We're not here to pick winners and losers.

I find them both a detriment to actual debate, and I agree with your analysis of them, sandokhan.

Maybe we should have a discussion about the rules of the forum. I try to be fair when I am issuing bans and warnings. I don't think it is ever a good idea to have too strict rules. I've seen many forums wither away because they are over moderated. We have to find the balance between letting people speak freely, but not so freely that they end up clogging the forum with crap.

Perhaps we should moderate the debate forum more strictly.

Yes, exactly.

Whenever one of them derails a thread you should send me a message or report it. Messages work, I do not mind getting messages. Sometimes reports get buried by other reports. When you reply to a derail, you make it more difficult to moderate. There have been times when I wanted to clean up a thread, but it was so trashed I couldn't see the point.

I agree.

If he's spamming then that's against the rules.

For disagreeing, not seeing the wisdom of your arguments, not accepting reality.  That's not really what the mods are supposed to do here.  We're not here to pick winners and losers.

They suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Sure you must pick a winner in a TECHNICAL DEBATE.

This is what every RE forum does: the mods intervene immediately to settle disputes.

On forum.cosmoquest they even give a time limit for proving something (30 days), the mods constantly remind the users if their arguments have been debunked.

If what rabinoz or jackblack say has been DEBUNKED, then their repeating of the very same argument all over again is SPAMMING, agreed.

This is what I am saying: if they have psychological problems with the shape of the Earth, relativity and other issues, it is not our business to try to cure them.

They will never give up, since they cannot face up to reality.

What then?

Here is what forum.cosmoquest does to anybody who dares to criticize mainstream science:

https://forum.cosmoquest.org/forumdisplay.php?17-Against-the-Mainstream&s=4f9d939b88a6f67deeff0d6de84eeeb7

Shouldn't we do the very same here?

Both rabinoz and jackblack have received a free ride on this forum, sabotaging everything in their path.

They suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Sure you must pick a winner in a TECHNICAL DEBATE.

We don't.  We officially don't do that.  We're not the truth police.

Some discussion forums do things that way.  That's fine.  We favor open mindedness over a specific dogma.

Then, that open mindedness will lead to situations like this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=82968.0

Imagine one of the moderators, or admin, reminding rabinoz/jackblack that their arguments have been indeed debunked, that they have to accept the results or go somewhere else where they will be happier.

They cannot face reality, thus they will sabotage each and every thread with spamming, trolling, simply refusing to accept what are very clear proofs.

What then?

What then?

Scroll Wheel

Then, that open mindedness will lead to situations like this:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=82968.0

Imagine one of the moderators, or admin, reminding rabinoz/jackblack that their arguments have been indeed debunked, that they have to accept the results or go somewhere else where they will be happier.

That's assuming their arguments have been debunked. You may think so, others may not agree with your assessment.

They cannot face reality, thus they will sabotage each and every thread with spamming, trolling, simply refusing to accept what are very clear proofs.

What then?

'Clear' is seemingly quite subjective.

A couple of things:

- Isn't what you're looking for already the 'Believers' section? Where you and other FEr's can discuss/debate your FE beliefs without RE in the mix?
- If maybe the Debate section was run like an actual debate, where winners and losers are called, like debate teams/competitions, that would be one thing. Seems like a lot of overhead with panels, deciders, minute by minute moderation. Seems like a whole other thing.

The debate section is meant for serious discussion of FE. It was never run like an actual debate, but it wasn't supposed to be spammy and filled with insults. I'd like to think the discussions there were more serious in the past, but they probably weren't.

The debate section is meant for serious discussion of FE. It was never run like an actual debate, but it wasn't supposed to be spammy and filled with insults. I'd like to think the discussions there were more serious in the past, but they probably weren't.

Agreed, it shouldn't be spammy and full of insults. I guess really nothing should be up in the upper.

From kicking around and looking at the past, no, between the two, pretty much the same - I kind of think of General and Debate as almost swappable. Maybe that's what's gotten mooshed over the years. Seems like there was an intent on distinction, but they are really kind of duplicative. Does it matter? I kinda don't think so.

I think it all kind of goes back to what Tom was alluding to. What do you all want it to be?

- Is the society a place where like minded flat earthers can virtually gather and exchange ideas in a safe (and I don't mean this in a bad way) 'echo chamber', as it were. Much like Dubay's place.
- Or is the society where it is like today where you accept all comers and free thought for and agin? Debate, however squirelly that gets. No winners or losers are decided, each thread just goes where it goes and dies where it dies.
- Or is the society a controlled debate site, at least partially, massively moderated to announce winners and losers?

Conundrum, for sure.