What's your opinion on Communism?

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Conker

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #180 on: December 17, 2015, 06:47:45 AM »
Tomfi, good questions and I hope you do get answers.

For me the root of it all has been explained: Conker does not have a clue on resources and just thinks one can mine kilos of precious minerals just when he feels he needs them.

Unfortunately for him we will never live in a "post-scarce society" as resources are finite.

Everybody fighting for resources has been the common theme for the last 10,000 years, how on Earth (Flat, Spherical or maybe Hammer-and-Sickle-shaped) he thinks that is going to disappear when everything is free and value becomes 0 is incomprehensible.

Jesus christ, you are getting it backwards. When resource scarcity (or market scarcity, which doesnt require resources to be avaliable at a rate equal to the max demand possible, just a nash equilibrium in all cases), THEN socialism can happen. All this time you assume socialism is a thing that can happen tomorrow. It isnt. No one claims it can. It can't. Please, read up more on the subject before spouting words that dont make sense in such a society.

This should answer your questions too, tomfi.
And on the subsequent question "but how do you do economy without markets", all leftist ideologies save for some anarcho-communist ones HAVE markets, and they are arguably better in many cases than capitalist markets. I know this is very confusing for people that havent studied the subject, and that's the main source of confusion.

>Hammer-and-sikle
I still find it sad that cold-war propaganda is still propagated as a truth by the US. The labor movement in the US used to be pretty interesting, just look at the IWW. Now its all dead, and labor inequality only rises. I hope people understand the meaning of Solidarity forever.

I think the best way of defining what the "far" left means for me, is to say "Democracy at all levels of society". It IS an oversimplification, but so it is to claim that capitalism is "economic" freedom. And, as I said, no one worries too much about socialism in communism, because it is a far goal that was predicted, and one that even capitalists accept. The important thing here are the labor movements, and the economical transformations into a better society. By the way, Gaia_Redonda, society does not mean a goverment. An anarchic society has structures and rules. I recommend reading Engels for an analysis on the anarchic society, and maybe the extense teardown of Stirner's egotistical-anarchy (which is what the ancaps are trying to revive) done by him. Maybe Chompsky's On antipolitics talk? Although not everything that he says is quite accurate, mind you.
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TheEarthIsASphere.

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #181 on: December 17, 2015, 06:52:23 AM »
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I still find it sad that cold-war propaganda is still propagated as a truth by the US.

This is what Cahrles Boolmnigtno can't get through his thick skull. The stuff he thinks is Communism is just U.S propaganda, and in reality, most of the "communist" countries that we were "fighting" during the Cold War were just totalitarian dictatorships.
Quā ratiōne nōn redimus ad senectēs societātēs sapientium patrum? Quā ratiōne relinquimus eārum sapientiam?

Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #182 on: December 17, 2015, 06:57:41 AM »
Jesus christ, you are getting it backwards. When resource scarcity (or market scarcity, which doesnt require resources to be avaliable at a rate equal to the max demand possible, just a nash equilibrium in all cases), THEN socialism can happen. All this time you assume socialism is a thing that can happen tomorrow. It isnt. No one claims it can. It can't. Please, read up more on the subject before spouting words that dont make sense in such a society.

Yes, I thought that you misunderstood me.

You think that scarcity is not intrinsically there but that the current system makes things scarce, if I summarize it well?

That the current system rigs value is clear and obvious and that creates unnatural scarcity and surplus at the moment.

So that's not my starting point. The starting point is me itself; the Earth. The Earth is unfortunately finite in resources.

So a "post-scarce society" is ridiculous to imagine because it is impossible to realize; we are depending on the Earth for our resources.

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By the way, Gaia_Redonda, society does not mean a goverment. An anarchic society has structures and rules.

True, true.

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I recommend reading Engels for an analysis on the anarchic society, and maybe the extense teardown of Stirner's egotistical-anarchy (which is what the ancaps are trying to revive) done by him. Maybe Chompsky's On antipolitics talk? Although not everything that he says is quite accurate, mind you.
Thanks for the suggestions. Chomsky of course I've read and he used to be a sharp anarchist. Today he's just a silenced puppet for the leftist global warmongering agenda, unfortunately.
I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses - Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

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Kali

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2016, 03:32:55 PM »
I think Orthodox Marxism is very palatable, if a bit obsolete. If we revise the strict definition of the proletariat to more accurately reflect "working-class" individuals of modern society, then a Marxist scheme is not terribly unreasonable, but there are still a number of problems. So first, the genuine Marxist theory is not actually political, it's historical and predictive. I think pretty much anyone familiar with Marx and human development will agree that his description of the end of history is perfectly rational, and almost unassailable, but the sticky part is the transition. So we were supposed to get actual industrial revolutions, where men would overcome the system of exploitation enforced by their employers because they got fed up with the shit they were being given on a daily basis, but instead, we transitioned out of the industrial economy and entered into this post-industrial consumerist wasteland where people can barely be bothered to do much beyond laze on the couch and watch TV. Some revisionists claim that the proletariat has been exported into the developing world, and that now the revolution will come from sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia, but that kind of logic requires a serious redefinition of the classes Marx was actually talking about to the point that we're dealing with an entirely different animal there, and I don't think that this idea is really feasible in any case. More significantly, though, I think what technology and automation did to Marx was highlight the absurdity of the 19th century and "industrial production" in general. Global population exploded in a very short period, going from around 1 billion in 1900 to the ~7 billion today, because the economic system that was developed in response to new technologies initially demanded a lot of human labor. Very quickly though, human labor became virtually worthless, and at the most generous estimation, really stopped being comparatively productive in the 1960s. And at the same time, the masters of labor decided to compromise on a lot of things to keep the peace, and with things like Social Security and welfare, we effectively ended the phenomenon of property-less wage laborers in the strict sense. So we had the death of the proletariat on two fronts, but we also never really managed to cope with that fact, since we're still addicted to this whole "industrial economy" where production needs to be "profitable," which has put the world in the unfortunate position of creating artificial scarcity by continuing to incentivize human population growth despite the absolute obsolescence of human labor. We need our wage to consume, but there's not generally a rational basis for us to receive a wage, since the labor we can contribute is almost meaningless, so we end up expanding "production" to all of these frivolous consumer industries and now the majority of consumption is completely detached from utility, and the whole process of capital flows is driven by speculation and growth in the most toxic way possible.

tl;dr, Marxism had its historical moment but unfortunately overestimated the role of industrial production, and now we're saddled with a world where individual people cannot actually justify their existence in a material sense.

I think the solution is obvious - we need to control the human population and restructure production in a way that Marxists probably would agree with, but I don't think it's very likely to happen.

Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #184 on: March 17, 2016, 05:01:38 AM »
To propose communism one should first solve its following theoretical problems:

1) Some jobs are more desirable than others - who would do the nice ones and who would do the ugly ones, how would you chose who gets to do which?
2) Some things can never become not scarce - land, radio spectrum, some necessary services etc., and almost everything else can theoretically become post-scarce but not in the forseeable future, how would you decide who would enjoy them and how much of them if there is not enough of it for everybody?
3) How would you cope with people who don't contribute to the society enough - tho se who are lazy, those who live on social aid, those who rather do an easy job while they are qualified for a difficult one?
4) How would you protect dissenters and minorities because rule of majority is nothing other than rule of strength? (just think of the Nazis or forced collectivisations in the USSR)
5) How would you prevent leaders (even though rightfully elected) from changing and trying to usurp power by swaying public opinion or creating stable power structures (NKVD comes to mind)?

These are just some problems I can now think of and I'm sure there are many more - and that is only on the theoretical level. Without having the right answers one can never even think of communism as anything more than a great social injustice.

And then there would be the practical problems - and there is even more of them. I am sorry but everywhere people tried to build communism it pretty quickly devolved into what neatly fits into the definition of feudalism - (e.g. in eastern Europe) or outright tyrany (Cambodia, North Korea, in some historical periods China, USSR during Stalin's reign).

For these reasons I'm against communism.


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Conker

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #185 on: March 18, 2016, 07:45:14 PM »
To propose communism one should first solve its following theoretical problems:

1) Some jobs are more desirable than others - who would do the nice ones and who would do the ugly ones, how would you chose who gets to do which?
Communism isnt communalism. Do better job, get paid better. Capitalism AND communism solve this problem exactly in the same way.

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2) Some things can never become not scarce - land, radio spectrum, some necessary services etc., and almost everything else can theoretically become post-scarce but not in the forseeable future, how would you decide who would enjoy them and how much of them if there is not enough of it for everybody?
None of those are resources in the materialistic sense. Some of them arent even property. Capitalism already solves that problem, and communism can in the same way.

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3) How would you cope with people who don't contribute to the society enough - tho se who are lazy, those who live on social aid, those who rather do an easy job while they are qualified for a difficult one?
Communism isnt communalism.

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4) How would you protect dissenters and minorities because rule of majority is nothing other than rule of strength? (just think of the Nazis or forced collectivisations in the USSR)
So you are against democracy?

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5) How would you prevent leaders (even though rightfully elected) from changing and trying to usurp power by swaying public opinion or creating stable power structures (NKVD comes to mind)?
How do capitalist states cope with this problem?

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These are just some problems I can now think of and I'm sure there are many more - and that is only on the theoretical level. Without having the right answers one can never even think of communism as anything more than a great social injustice.
Oh, and here I thought you were being honest. You were using the good ol' creationist tactic of "QUESTIONS EVOLUTIONISTS CANT ANSWER", without checking if we do have an answer. Well, we do! Stop getting your communist theory from anticommunist sources.

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And then there would be the practical problems - and there is even more of them. I am sorry but everywhere people tried to build communism it pretty quickly devolved into what neatly fits into the definition of feudalism - (e.g. in eastern Europe) or outright tyrany (Cambodia, North Korea, in some historical periods China, USSR during Stalin's reign).

For these reasons I'm against communism.
The most optimistic estimates of the deaths caused by capitalism in the 20th century alone give around 50x more than the most propagandistic estimates of the deaths caused by communism. To be honest, I believe both numbers to be meaningless, since its mostly impossible to differenciate motivation, casus belli, and ideology in this cases. In any case, practicality of a particular branch of a particular branch of a particular branch of Marxism (not necesarilly communism) does not destroy the whole ideology. Capitalism can't work because fascism! Can't you see all those examples of capitalism! It simply does not work!

And here am I again defending the communists. Hope none of my comrades find out.
This is not a joke society.
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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #186 on: August 27, 2019, 03:08:58 AM »
Totally depends on what kind of Communism you are talking about. When I learned about the history of the Khmer Rouge a the S21 prison and killing fields (https://www.geckoroutes.com/cambodia/phnom-penh/#see) I was completely shocked about how far this could have escalated in a genocide.

A communist state can have the best intentions, but the limits in freedom are not worth the sacrifice. The risk of becoming a totalitarian regime like happened in Cambodia should be prevented in every way. This article made it more clear to me how this regime developed in Cambodia and how we should be aware that this will not happen again in the future: https://www.cambodiatribunal.org/history/cambodian-history/khmer-rouge-history/

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wise

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #187 on: August 27, 2019, 03:23:30 AM »
comunism and capitalism is going to end...

wiseism is coming...  8)
The moment you are closest to victory is the moment you are most desperate. Take note of wise with you, not with them.



http://www.unz.com/article/the-moon-landing

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Bullwinkle

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #188 on: August 27, 2019, 11:42:15 PM »

wiseism is coming...  8)

Goats are scared.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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Pezevenk

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #189 on: August 28, 2019, 09:08:22 AM »
comunism and capitalism is going to end...

wiseism is coming...  8)
Holy shit that's big.
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Please do not jizz to win an argument.
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Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
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Pezevenk

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #190 on: August 28, 2019, 09:09:00 AM »
Totally depends on what kind of Communism you are talking about. When I learned about the history of the Khmer Rouge a the S21 prison and killing fields (https://www.geckoroutes.com/cambodia/phnom-penh/#see) I was completely shocked about how far this could have escalated in a genocide.

A communist state can have the best intentions, but the limits in freedom are not worth the sacrifice. The risk of becoming a totalitarian regime like happened in Cambodia should be prevented in every way. This article made it more clear to me how this regime developed in Cambodia and how we should be aware that this will not happen again in the future: https://www.cambodiatribunal.org/history/cambodian-history/khmer-rouge-history/
Do you know how that regime ended?
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Who wants to be a firefly and who wants to be a blue whale?
-Sceptimatic

Please do not jizz to win an argument.
-Crutonius

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
-Inty (again)

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Kalides

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Re: What's your opinion on Communism?
« Reply #191 on: September 01, 2019, 11:47:28 AM »
Communism is only good, if all the participants agree with it. Otherwise it ends always in terror and murder.
But even a democracy can go astray. Think of it: the most little minority could be YOU!
believing is a weak form of knowing.