The Candle Experiment

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2019, 01:20:55 AM »
I have done so myself many times to the bemusement of many. When done in more urban areas, which obviously would fit this experiment well, it often draws quite a crowd. Bring a music box to give the entire ordeal a fanciful rhythm!

Ok, and nobody ever has taken any photo? Really? Such crowds and no single photo? I mean come on, it's impossible today with all these smart phones. Now would be the perfect time to show them!

I believe one is not allowed to take photos and videos in a comedy show.

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Crutchwater

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2019, 02:13:03 AM »
I have done so myself many times to the bemusement of many. When done in more urban areas, which obviously would fit this experiment well, it often draws quite a crowd. Bring a music box to give the entire ordeal a fanciful rhythm!

Ok, and nobody ever has taken any photo? Really? Such crowds and no single photo? I mean come on, it's impossible today with all these smart phones. Now would be the perfect time to show them!

Dangit! I forgot to take photos on my vacation on the ISS last week!

Nobody would believe them anyway. probably claim they were photoshopped.


I think this entire thread belongs in CN!
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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2019, 03:56:33 AM »
Please, John. Tell us what materials you used. Should not be that difficult.

I'm sure you can see in the video he made showing the experiment being done.

Oh wait, no, such an important proof of a flat earth and he forgot to video it! Doh!
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2019, 04:59:46 AM »
I hope nobody has fallen for John's ruse and actually attempted his experiment????????

As John well and truly knows, the experiment can prove neither a flat earth nor a round earth. The trick up his sleeve is declaring if it doesn't prove a round earth, which he knows it won't, it must therefore prove a flat earth. The materials and methodology are ludicrously too crude, and John knows this. It's a trick.

This is a classic ploy of the old time flat earth society members to waste people's time, cause them frustration, and feel victorious in the shit they've stirred.

Thank-you John, for your exemplary demonstration of flat earth prickery at it's finest.


« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 05:02:28 AM by Sunset »

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rvlvr

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2019, 06:25:55 AM »
Actually no. It can well be how this all ends, but he did not start his lie with that angle in mind.

At the moment something like ĒYou fell for my ruseĒ is the only save possible for him, but I doubt it was that in the beginning.

Had he not mentioned himself conducting the experiment his position would be stronger. Now it is just elementary school level empty brags and bravado. I am, even to my own surprise, quite disappointed and disgusted by such an low act. I expected more from John. Adults donít do stuff like that.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 06:41:36 AM by rvlvr »

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2019, 07:36:42 AM »
The disproofs of a round earth are so plentiful and readily available that we can show its absurdity with ease at the beck and call of any globularist - just don't expect such a man (or woman!) to accept their defeat but instead you will be privy to the greatest show of mental acrobatics this side of the plane. I am sure we will see some such acrobats visit this very thread.

Procure the following items, and keep them securely in a map-case should the need arise to dumbfound those whose ideas are founded in dumbness. The rational man will have to reject any round earth slumgullion immediately upon seeing the results.

  • A candle.
  • A ball of twine, 1320 feet. This should cost approximately 61 dollars.
  • Two good sized, sturdy sticks approximately half a meter in length.
  • A box of matches

In preparation, take out your pocket knife - which any good field experimenter should have readily on hand at all times - and make notches at equal heights on both wooden sticks.  Do the same on both ends to allow yourself the ability to plant these on a level surface at an even height, accounting for both where the string will be tied as well as the amount of stick that will be thrust into our flat earth - preferably with gusto. The top line should be at such a height that it extends past the bottom line plus two inches - including the height of an average flame from said candle.

Next, find the center of the twine, and mark it appropriately with a permanent black marker. This will let you know at what point your candle should lie beneath the twine.

Now you are prepared. When questioned about the perceived absurdity of a flat earth, smile your largest grin while opening your map-case. Procure the sticks and plunge one of them into the ground at the prescribed height.

Be ready for confusion at this point, but take no note of it. The round earther is religious beast and is not often accustomed to seeing real science at work. He may mistake the entire ordeal for a ritual and in these cases you will be unable to convince him or her that they are in actuality wankers.

Next, tie one end of the string to this pole. Walk until the string is taught, to the point that the string is level and the stick sturdy. Plunge the second stick into the ground here, and fasten the other end of twine to the pre-marked location on your rod. Travel back your course, and place the candle underneath the pre-marked black line.

Now, light the candle while explaining that should the earth indeed have such a curvature - the candles flame would be touching said black line. Unfortunately for those globularist, the flame will not touch the twine, showing the predicted drop in curvature of two inches is not observed.  If necessary, repeat this experiment a number of times and localities to rule out local variances skewing the results.

As a one-two-punch you can then note that the shadows are at the same angle on these sticks - showing that the charlatan Eratosthenes was a fool.

At this point yell in triumph: "Sockdolager!" for the matter has been suitably settled. The earth is not some whirlidirly ball dancing about the heavens in a celestial race - no it is flat as a cupboard shelf.

Others have already touched on this, but how thick are these sticks? And thrust into the ground with gusto?

Anyone who's tried to hammer a tent peg or fence post into the ground may think that 'thrusting into the ground with gusto' is overly optimistic.

So in this experiment either some shovels and concrete mix would also be required or a fence post driver will be needed (assuming the stick will take being driven in).

FYI, I replaced my fence some years ago, for which I dug 2ft deep holes, inserted 4x4" timber posts and concreted in the base (yeah I know concrete fence posts would be better).

These 4x4" posts (or 100 x 100mm for us Europeans) still flex when leaned on or pulled.

A timber stick simply thrust into the ground I would hazard would just be pulled out in the experiment you've described.

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Stash

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »
Now, light the candle while explaining that should the earth indeed have such a curvature - the candles flame would be touching said black line.

Ok, Amazon Prime came through with same day delivery. I set up the experiment in multiple locations following your instructions to the letter. In all instances the candle flame touched the twine at the mark made and burned through my line. According to your parameters, indeed the earth does have such curvature.

Now what?
Good luck on your journey.

After successfully completing your experiment and showing that the earth has curvature I thought I would get a prize of sorts. Maybe a Society branded mug or headband? I was hoping my journey included some merch.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2019, 10:12:41 AM »
After successfully completing your experiment and showing that the earth has curvature I thought I would get a prize of sorts. Maybe a Society branded mug or headband? I was hoping my journey included some merch.

Maybe you'd get a Flat Earth ball to play with, or as we call it, a frisbee.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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Stash

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2019, 11:43:59 AM »
After successfully completing your experiment and showing that the earth has curvature I thought I would get a prize of sorts. Maybe a Society branded mug or headband? I was hoping my journey included some merch.

Maybe you'd get a Flat Earth ball to play with, or as we call it, a frisbee.

Kind of a let down, but I'll take whatever prize I can get for performing JD's extremely well thought out experiment and proving curvature.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2019, 12:18:35 PM »
Here you go john, I just saved you 40 bucks...

KastKing Superpower Braided Fishing Line,Moss Green,30 LB,547 Yds https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A6UULXE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Z7HyDbH9E0SSB

Who the hell pays 61 dollars for twine?

A stone cold liar, that's who!

Weighs 10lbs.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/64240/why-wont-a-tight-cable-ever-be-fully-straight

Ill assume we know how to approach zero degrees and find out the tm required tension to pull a string completely flat is impossible.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2019, 12:20:41 PM »
And there are waaaaay too many posts already for this "great" experiment.
If not already mentioned -
Didnt jeranism do it with a laser already in the netlfix doc?

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rvlvr

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2019, 12:45:15 PM »
I believe he did, yes.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2019, 01:09:59 PM »
And there are waaaaay too many posts already for this "great" experiment.
If not already mentioned -
Didnt jeranism do it with a laser already in the netlfix doc?

Yeah, this is the really stupid version of Jeranismís experiment.

I think we should stop to appreciate the magnitude of that.

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Crutchwater

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2019, 01:13:21 PM »
Here you go john, I just saved you 40 bucks...

KastKing Superpower Braided Fishing Line,Moss Green,30 LB,547 Yds https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A6UULXE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Z7HyDbH9E0SSB

Who the hell pays 61 dollars for twine?

A stone cold liar, that's who!

Weighs 10lbs.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/64240/why-wont-a-tight-cable-ever-be-fully-straight

Ill assume we know how to approach zero degrees and find out the tm required tension to pull a string completely flat is impossible.

But jOhN DaViS has done this experiment many times to the bemusement of many bewildered spectators!

I hate this acronym, bit LMAO!!!
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2019, 01:33:55 PM »

But jOhN DaViS has done this experiment many times to the bemusement of many bewildered spectators!

I hate this acronym, bit LMAO!!!

I imagine John in full David Copperfield mode, arms outstretched in the Jesus pose, waking the gathered hoards of bewildered sheeple to the truth.

Just a shame itís a fantasy.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2019, 03:31:57 PM »
An oddly specific number indeed. It is of course a fourth of a mile, and the dip for a mile is predicted by the globularist academic community to be eight inches.
Yes, 8 inches, but not a linear trend.
If you double the distance you get 4 times the dip, if you halve it you get 1/4 of the dip.
More importantly, that is the dip, not the bulge.
To get a 1 inch dip in the centre, you need to go for a mile on each side.
What you have is 1/8 of a mile on each side.
That means you get 1/64 th of the 8 inches as a bulge in the centre.
That is 1/8th of an inch, not 2 inches.
That is only a few mm. Now, how do you plan on ensuring that your heights were level across that distance to the required precision?

Even with the string being taught, that doesn't mean it will be straight.
Instead, it will follow a catenary curve.
That still has a dip.

As a matter of course, it is of necessity to actually perform an experiment to properly refute and debunk it.
No it isn't.
If you can show a fundamental flaw with the method, such as the math being completely wrong, you don't need to perform it to refute it.

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rvlvr

  • 2096
Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2019, 01:37:28 AM »
No word yet from John? Pigeons and chess again?

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2019, 02:09:29 AM »
If John's 'experiment' is capable of showing anything it is that roundies are too easily trolled..

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Crutchwater

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2019, 02:53:43 AM »
If John's 'experiment' is capable of showing anything it is that roundies are too easily trolled..

You do realize that the entire idea of a flat Earth is nothing more than an epic troll, right?
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2019, 02:57:31 AM »
If John's 'experiment' is capable of showing anything it is that roundies are too easily trolled..

You do realize that the entire idea of a flat Earth is nothing more than an epic troll, right?

I second that. And now we have a proof of this. And it's more solid than proofs of flat earth.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2019, 06:59:23 AM »
Man, this makes me sad. Although I haven`t read many posts of John Davis, I always thought he is (for a flat earther at least) a little bit more reasonable. To see such a pathetic post/experiment even school children would laugh at it. Seriously, how can anyone take you serious when you say it is easy, costs little but didn`t even try it yourself. I am constantly surprised to what gets posted here...

I think I have to get rid of half of my brain to understand this...

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Yes

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2019, 09:31:52 AM »
This thread is by far the funniest thing I've read all week.  I would like to offer my sincere appreciation for all of you.
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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2019, 11:14:21 AM »
The disproofs of a round earth are so plentiful and readily available that we can show its absurdity...

[snip]

...for the matter has been suitably settled. The earth is not some whirlidirly ball dancing about the heavens in a celestial race - no it is flat as a cupboard shelf.

Trolling strategy changed -- trying to sound all friendly and folksy. You had better luck when you were being a rude jerk.

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John Davis

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2019, 01:07:03 PM »
Oh my! More quackery from the round earth box. Any experiment that proves the earth is not round must be a troll! I must be the village idiot, attempting to dupe round earthers into performing a failing experiment!

I find it very humorous that many here are claiming such an experiment is impossible, when one baller has already completed the task, albeit he seems to have not followed directions. He even goes so far to say it is extremely well thought out - thank you kindly Stash.

Very curious as to the results of your attempt at the experiment. I do however worry that there was a methodological issue with your implementation or the gathering and analysis of your results as I have performed this experiment many times and have always come to the conclusion that the earth must not be round. Did you make sure to repeat the experiment until you had a suitable dataset as instructed? Did you take note of the shadows which showed no change in angle?

I am still eagerly awaiting lone grangers attempt of this most wondrous experiment. Surely it will pull the wool from his eyes and restore his sight and reason to know for a fact that the earth is not some whirly gig and his shoes do not contain magnets that adhere him to its surface - and of course that I am indeed the most prolific scientist of 2019.

To the rest of you, I know buying the proper twine and tying it twice is quite the impossible task for the average round earther. More so, performing this action with gusto must be right out. I forgive you in advance if you are not up to the task. After all, we all knew when this thread started that the roundies would come and hand wave away any evidence while providing little to none of their own to justify this. Its the same thing they do in every thread. If I was trolling you roundies in this thread, you'd certainly have it coming.



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Yes

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #84 on: August 27, 2019, 01:12:10 PM »
If I was trolling you roundies in this thread, you'd certainly have it coming.
If  ;D
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markjo

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2019, 01:15:58 PM »
I must be the village idiot, attempting to dupe round earthers into performing a failing experiment!
Nah, the village idiot would have tried the experiment himself first before proclaiming success.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Stash

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Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2019, 01:17:55 PM »
I find it very humorous that many here are claiming such an experiment is impossible, when one baller has already completed the task, albeit he seems to have not followed directions. He even goes so far to say it is extremely well thought out - thank you kindly Stash.

Seems dubious and highly unscientific of you to assume that since I got different results that I must have been performing the experiment incorrectly. Maybe your experimental method wasn't as rigorous as mine.

Very curious as to the results of your attempt at the experiment.

I already gave you the results; the twine burned as predicted by a spherical earth.

I do however worry that there was a methodological issue with your implementation or the gathering and analysis of your results as I have performed this experiment many times and have always come to the conclusion that the earth must not be round.

Why worry? Just because my results were contrary to yours?

Did you make sure to repeat the experiment until you had a suitable dataset as instructed?

Yes

Did you take note of the shadows which showed no change in angle?

Yes. I wouldn't expect an angle change at such a short distance with a spherical earth and a very large sun very far away.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2019, 02:12:49 PM »
Oh my! More quackery from the round earth box. Any experiment that proves the earth is not round must be a troll! I must be the village idiot, attempting to dupe round earthers into performing a failing experiment!

I find it very humorous that many here are claiming such an experiment is impossible, when one baller has already completed the task, albeit he seems to have not followed directions. He even goes so far to say it is extremely well thought out - thank you kindly Stash.

Very curious as to the results of your attempt at the experiment. I do however worry that there was a methodological issue with your implementation or the gathering and analysis of your results as I have performed this experiment many times and have always come to the conclusion that the earth must not be round. Did you make sure to repeat the experiment until you had a suitable dataset as instructed? Did you take note of the shadows which showed no change in angle?

I am still eagerly awaiting lone grangers attempt of this most wondrous experiment. Surely it will pull the wool from his eyes and restore his sight and reason to know for a fact that the earth is not some whirly gig and his shoes do not contain magnets that adhere him to its surface - and of course that I am indeed the most prolific scientist of 2019.

To the rest of you, I know buying the proper twine and tying it twice is quite the impossible task for the average round earther. More so, performing this action with gusto must be right out. I forgive you in advance if you are not up to the task. After all, we all knew when this thread started that the roundies would come and hand wave away any evidence while providing little to none of their own to justify this. Its the same thing they do in every thread. If I was trolling you roundies in this thread, you'd certainly have it coming.

Hi John. Iíll do your experiment once youíve taken and compared your image of the moon from one taken in the Southern Hemisphere. How do you account for the moon being rather different, by that I mean upside down, when viewed in the Southern Hemisphere as compared to it when viewed from the Northern Hemisphere? Just the kind of view one would expect what with the earth being spherical.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2019, 02:26:08 PM »
JohnD quote:
buying the proper twine and tying it twice is quite the impossible task for the average round earther.




Uh...
You failed to notice or understand pg1-3 of this thread?
Tying a knot to a stick was not the issue.

Re: The Candle Experiment
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2019, 04:10:22 PM »
Oh my! More quackery from the round earth box.
You mean more deflection from you, still failing to address the numerous shortcomings of your experiment.

I find it very humorous that many here are claiming such an experiment is impossible
Not impossible, just so impractical given the string cannot be perfectly straight and over such a long distance, you have provided no way to ensure the 3 reference heights are level, and there is such a tiny drop, which you felt the need to exaggerate 16 fold.

Even if you did manage to set it up with the references all perfectly level as needed, with the correct height as predicted for the RE, and the twine kept perfectly straight, it would burn either way as the flame of the candle would be large enough to burn it for the RE or a hypothetical FE.
You will need something much smaller to demonstrate the difference.

And again, the string wont be perfectly straight.
The equation for such a string is given as y=sqrt((Tx/(λ g))^2+l^2) where y is the height, Tx is the tension in the horizontal direction, λ is the mass per unit length, g is the acceleration due to gravity and l is the length of the string on one side of the point.

Also note that Ty=λ g l, and T=sqrt(Ty+Tx), which must be less than the tensile strength of the twine or it will break.

We can also simplify this a bit.
We get y=sqrt((T/(λ g))^2-lt^2 + l^2)
Where lt is the length from the middle to the end and l is the bit we are looking at.
So the middle has a height of y=sqrt((T/(λ g))^2-lt^2), while the end has a height of T/(λ g)
So that means the sag will be T/(λ g) - sqrt((T/(λ g))^2-lt^2).
If we assume that l is insignificant compared to T/(λ g) (which is needs to be to get a small sag), this can be simplified to
sag= λ g l^2/(2 T)

As g and l are fixed, this means the sag will be dictated by λ/T.
We want the smallest lambda with the largest T.
Also, conveniently, it scales just fine with area. So a 1 m diameter string will follow the same path as a 1 mm diameter string, given the same stress (as a force per unit area). This is because it all scales as λ/T, where T is given by the tensile strength times the area, and λ is given by the density times the area. So for simplicity we can just pretend the string has an area of 1 m^2.

But now we need to put in some properties, which are hard to find.
Lets use nylon as that is quite strong and more well defined than twine.
I find a tensile strength of 900 MPa and a density of 1130 kg/m^3.

That gives a difference in height for our string of ~0.25 m.
That would be the best you could do.
If you try to pull tighter to make the sag any less you would break the string.

So you are looking for a drop due to curvature of ~3.175 mm using a piece of string with a sag of 250 mm.
A small change in tension will have a much larger effect than the curvature of Earth.

Even if you went to the extreme of a carbon fibre, such as one with a tensile strength of 7000 MPa and a density of roughly 1.79 kg/m^3 you still get a sag of roughly 50 mm, more than the drop due to curvature.

You would need something like a carbon nano-tube to be able to see the drop. And in order to do so, that will require a very large amount of tension, far more than required to rip those sticks out of the ground.

So your experiment simply will not work.

And before you suggest to use a longer or shorter distance, note that the drop due to the curvature is roughly proportion to l^2, and the sag due to the weight of the string is also roughly proportional to l^2. So that wont help.

If I have made a mistake with the math, feel free to explain why it is wrong and I will fix it.

Did you take note of the shadows which showed no change in angle?
No change, or just a change too small to easily notice?
After all, you would only expect a roughly 13 arc-second change in angle.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:12:13 PM by JackBlack »