How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2019, 03:48:40 AM »

In the end, does it really matter.

For an atheist, he’s either a man deified by other men or a construction.
To the faithful, he’s what ever their particular “faith” has raised out of the myriad of stories and interpretations, (see the difference between Westboro’ Baptists and the Quakers), and he’s real.
Move on.
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John Davis

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2019, 01:06:14 PM »
One could easily argue that many times in the bible it says he is imperfect, and fully man.

He who?
If you mean God or Jesus, no they are and had to be perfect.
Take the cursing of the fig tree or the incident in the temple for imperfection is easy enough to start an argument around his fallibility. Likewise, he clearly made mistakes many other times, though perhaps they didn't amount to sin. Being sinless is not the same as being perfect.

As far as fully man, he had to be fully man to suffer and to be able to make propitiation for the sins of man; From Hewbrew 2, as one example:

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Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

That said, he is also fully divine, otherwise the sacrifice would have not met worth in God's eyes.

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Though in theory, Jesus would be the only being that would need to be perfect in God's eyes, if He wasn't then the sacrifice would be in vain.

I have always wondered if God was considered perfect because He owns it all. So simply whatever He says or does is perfect because there is nothing above Him.

Just random thoughts
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:12:01 PM by John Davis »
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John Davis

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2019, 01:11:48 PM »
Dug up a good argument on it that I read years ago: The Mistakes of Jesus by William Floyd.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:23:19 PM by John Davis »
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Bom Tishop

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2019, 02:54:21 PM »
John....

You realize your version of Jesus is not much different than the Muslim version. Simply a teacher and profit. The new testament is completely a waste and Christianity is dead under this idea.

If Jesus wasn't perfect and He sinned, then there is no sacrifice
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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2019, 12:51:42 AM »
Also, the Bible is inaccurate? Lol, it has been spot on dead eye accurate so far on people, places and things. 53 people so far have been 100 percent confirmed from the old testament alone. 12 that I know of from the new testament, both sides are growing, unfortunately it just takes time.

All places and things has been dead on accurate, discoveries made because of the Bible, from scientific from geography. Hell, the kosher way of preparing meat still exceeds FDA guidelines, and how many thousands of years was that?

How many times have people said the Bible is a lie with geography and had to recant after a time? Hell just not too long ago with the 5 cities found by the dead sea just where they should have been, was just buried. And one city was covered in ash, just like it was supposed to be. How many thousands of years did that happen before AD? The Quran dodged the location for this because it's writer didn't know.

The Bible with people, places and things is dead on the money.... Especially when you consider the time it covers, that is pretty much a miracle (lol)..

Longtime listener, first time caller. These two particular bits caught my eye; confirmed people and confirmed places. A couple of things.

53 people so far have been 100 percent confirmed from the old testament. I saw the write-up's on the number back in some articles from 2014. And sure, valid point, tough to archeologically, even historically, confirm someone's existence from 2000 years ago. Unless, perhaps, they were historically significant.

53 out of X? Knowing that would be the real value of the number.

Geographical references to real geographical/historical places.

I don't find either of these two elements that compelling nor convincing. As with many works of fiction, references to real people and real places and even real events are beyond commonplace, all part of the tapestry of world building and the suspension of disbelief.

So I don't really get how The Bible with people, places and things is dead on the money. I mean faith aside, what's the percentage of dead money to unknown or outright wrong?

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Bom Tishop

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2019, 06:40:26 AM »
Also, the Bible is inaccurate? Lol, it has been spot on dead eye accurate so far on people, places and things. 53 people so far have been 100 percent confirmed from the old testament alone. 12 that I know of from the new testament, both sides are growing, unfortunately it just takes time.

All places and things has been dead on accurate, discoveries made because of the Bible, from scientific from geography. Hell, the kosher way of preparing meat still exceeds FDA guidelines, and how many thousands of years was that?

How many times have people said the Bible is a lie with geography and had to recant after a time? Hell just not too long ago with the 5 cities found by the dead sea just where they should have been, was just buried. And one city was covered in ash, just like it was supposed to be. How many thousands of years did that happen before AD? The Quran dodged the location for this because it's writer didn't know.

The Bible with people, places and things is dead on the money.... Especially when you consider the time it covers, that is pretty much a miracle (lol)..

Longtime listener, first time caller. These two particular bits caught my eye; confirmed people and confirmed places. A couple of things.

53 people so far have been 100 percent confirmed from the old testament. I saw the write-up's on the number back in some articles from 2014. And sure, valid point, tough to archeologically, even historically, confirm someone's existence from 2000 years ago. Unless, perhaps, they were historically significant.

53 out of X? Knowing that would be the real value of the number.

Geographical references to real geographical/historical places.

I don't find either of these two elements that compelling nor convincing. As with many works of fiction, references to real people and real places and even real events are beyond commonplace, all part of the tapestry of world building and the suspension of disbelief.

So I don't really get how The Bible with people, places and things is dead on the money. I mean faith aside, what's the percentage of dead money to unknown or outright wrong?

About 150 names mentioned in the old testament, this includes even the least consequential people.

As far as dead money vs undiscovered or outright wrong. I don't have the undiscovered part off hand, but I know there has been no outright wrong so.

Usually it is the case of no proof being found at the time, and the biased people call the book a sham and inaccurate, then when someone finds proof they move on hated something else.

To me accuracy historically/geographically means something. As well as its accuracy between copies. About 95 percent on the old testament and a little higher for the new testament, all errors simple misspellings or slips of the pen. That is nothing short of a miracle considering the amount of time it covers and the amount of people who were involved.
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kopfverderber

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2019, 07:57:12 AM »
I think there are more than 3000 characters in the bible, but only half of those have unique names.

I'm sure that many more than 53 biblical characters are historical. If you look at that the list of 53 they are mostly rulers of Israel, Judah and surrounding nations. I'm sure the bible writers knew who was Cyrus the Great, no surprises there.

The Bible includes many historical characters and events from around 10th century BC onward, but these accounts are not always accurate. Usually the accounts closer in time to the moment of writing are more accurate than the ones narrating events that happened centuries before.

Even the more "historical" books of the bible  are theological writings and have a strong theological bias. The writers of the bible are more interested in showing how disobeying the will of god will result in disaster than in narrating historical events accurately.
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Pezevenk

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2019, 07:57:36 AM »
About 150 names mentioned in the old testament, this includes even the least consequential people.

Nope.

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To me accuracy historically/geographically means something. As well as its accuracy between copies. About 95 percent on the old testament and a little higher for the new testament, all errors simple misspellings or slips of the pen. That is nothing short of a miracle considering the amount of time it covers and the amount of people who were involved.
Alright so now there are errors but they're just slips of pen. I guess the entire story of the birth of Jesus with the terribly mangled timeline is just a slip of pen as well!

Btw what's so miraculous in getting the names of some kings right? There are many historical resources from the time that are able to do that.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2019, 09:17:09 AM »
About 150 names mentioned in the old testament, this includes even the least consequential people.

Nope.

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To me accuracy historically/geographically means something. As well as its accuracy between copies. About 95 percent on the old testament and a little higher for the new testament, all errors simple misspellings or slips of the pen. That is nothing short of a miracle considering the amount of time it covers and the amount of people who were involved.
Alright so now there are errors but they're just slips of pen. I guess the entire story of the birth of Jesus with the terribly mangled timeline is just a slip of pen as well!

Btw what's so miraculous in getting the names of some kings right? There are many historical resources from the time that are able to do that.

Nope what?? Dude, just stop, you have zero ability to conversate at all.

As for the second part... Let's say there is a period instead of a comma. That is considered an error. A misspelling of a word, an error... That's it, that is the only issues found and the dead sea scrolls put a nail in that coffin for accuracy. Absolutely no changes was found in the actual content.

It's the most accurate book copied, look it up instead of being a troll.

So in your words to your entire post....

Nope
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Pezevenk

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2019, 09:40:55 AM »
Nope what?? Dude, just stop, you have zero ability to conversate at all.
You're just blatantly wrong about the number of people in the Bible, what more can I say? Try not to lie the next time.



Quote
As for the second part... Let's say there is a period instead of a comma. That is considered an error. A misspelling of a word, an error... That's it, that is the only issues found and the dead sea scrolls put a nail in that coffin for accuracy. Absolutely no changes was found in the actual content.

It's the most accurate book copied, look it up instead of being a troll.

So in your words to your entire post....

Nope
I like how you just keep saying spurious stuff that no serious person believes, while dodging the question over and over again. Not a good look.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2019, 01:10:39 PM »
Nope what?? Dude, just stop, you have zero ability to conversate at all.
You're just blatantly wrong about the number of people in the Bible, what more can I say? Try not to lie the next time.



Quote
As for the second part... Let's say there is a period instead of a comma. That is considered an error. A misspelling of a word, an error... That's it, that is the only issues found and the dead sea scrolls put a nail in that coffin for accuracy. Absolutely no changes was found in the actual content.

It's the most accurate book copied, look it up instead of being a troll.

So in your words to your entire post....

Nope
I like how you just keep saying spurious stuff that no serious person believes, while dodging the question over and over again. Not a good look.

Then instead of being a useless troll as always, why don't you tell me how many names are in the Bible...

Also, why don't you tell me another book that is proven to be copied more accurately that spreed that many thousands of years. Especially one with that many authors.

(To be fair, scribes thought they would be struck down immediately if they fucked up, so that brings on a bit more accuracy lol)

I will wait right here pez
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John Davis

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2019, 01:43:23 PM »
John....

You realize your version of Jesus is not much different than the Muslim version. Simply a teacher and profit. The new testament is completely a waste and Christianity is dead under this idea.

If Jesus wasn't perfect and He sinned, then there is no sacrifice
I never said he sinned.

I said he wasn't perfect. And its clear he wasn't. He contradicts himself constantly, gives advice that is blatantly incorrect, curses nature at a whim, destroys the property of others, has temper tantrums and ransacks temples, admits himself he is wrong on several occassions, gives conflicting advice, falls three times, is incorrect in how long he will be in the cave before resurrected, and a huge number of other things. You could go on about the various ways he made mistakes indefinitely.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." and again "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

The perfection of Christ is in his lack of sin - this is what makes him Fully Divine. Not his ability to avoid mistakes we all make. The fact he cannot avoid the mistakes we all make is what makes his sacrifice worthwhile, and why we would know him as Fully Human.
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Pezevenk

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2019, 12:31:32 AM »
Also, why don't you tell me another book that is proven to be copied more accurately that spreed that many thousands of years. Especially one with that many authors.
You can look at the Iliad which was much older than the New Testament and a lot of the Old Testament too probably for example, the consistency between different copies is pretty high, despite the fact that they were epic poems that were initially transmitted for mouth to mouth, not an important religious work that you just had to copy perfectly. If the Illiad can be copied consistently, why is it so impressive in the case of the Bible, where consistency was crucial and as you said yourself, they took it very seriously? But how can you even know for sure how accurately it was copied if you don't know the original?The Dead Sea Scrolls were not the original, you know. They were written years after the "original" Old Testament. It actually helps my point if it was indeed accurately translated because you can't complain that oh, it was just a bad translation, but whatever. And most accurate book copied? Seriously? You didn't even add an "antiquity" caveat.

I will wait right here for you to answer the question that has been asked to you many times. Not holding my breath though.

Also there are like more than 1500 names in the Bible, so you were off by a factor of 10. Not too bad for you I guess.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 12:37:53 AM by Pezevenk »
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Pezevenk

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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2019, 12:50:10 AM »
Btw I don't know where you heard that the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the accuracy of later versions, there are numerous differences sometimes in sorta important ways, and there is of course the controversy around deuterocanonical texts.
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Re: How do we know that Jesus Christ is not fictitious character?
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2019, 03:58:54 AM »
Jesus is just one of at least seven crucified saviours. They all share the same life story. The idea of jesus is real, not necessarily the man himself.