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When will RE Community Accept Defeat?

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Macarios

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #600 on: August 09, 2019, 11:20:56 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 10:31:20 PM
Quote from: Macarios on August 09, 2019, 10:10:28 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:09:53 AM
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change  greatly on a Plane Earth?

Because the distance from the observer is changing greatly during the day.

Let's say you are in Mineapolis, 45 degrees north, 3110 miles away from the Equator.

For equinoctial solar noon when the Sun is above the Equator you can see it due south 45 degrees above the horizon.
You have simple isoceles right triangle Sun-Equator-Mineapolis that shows the sun 3110 miles above the Equator and 4398 miles away from you.
The Sun's angular diameter is 0.5 degrees, and to have that the required Sun radius has to be R = tan(0.25) * 4398 = 19 miles.
So, Sun's diameter has to be 38 miles.
At the same moment another observer at the Equator would have the Sun directly over head.
The angular diameter of the Sun from there should be 2 * ArcTan(19 / 3110) = 0.7 degrees.
But it is not, it is still 0.5 degrees.

Six hours later the Sun is 90 degrees west from where it was at solar noon.
Ground distance from Mineapolis grew from 3110 to 5387 miles, making direct line distance to be
SQRT(31102 + 53872) = 6220 miles.
The Sun with radius of 19 miles should have angular diameter of 2 * ArcTan(19 / 6220) = 0.35 degrees.
That's the chabge from 0.5 to 0.35 in 6 hours.
In reality you don't have that change.

From that other observer at the Equator, ground distance was increased from zero to 6220 miles,
which makes the direct line distance increased from 3110 to 6954 miles.
At the new distance the Sun with radius of 19 miles should have the angular diameter of
2 * ArcTan(19 / 6954) = 0.31 degrees.
That's the change from 0.7 to 0.31 in six hours.
Again, in reality you don't have that change.

In reality the Sun's angular diameter, seen from anywhere on Earth, is still those 0.5 degrees.




I see you have not included the flat Earth model in your specs. So it's just a myth.

And you can calculate all that but you are incapable of verifying (calculate) the actually (alleged) curvature (through calculation) of any landmass or canal?  Do the right thing and prove the foundation of your theory.

Whats the actually verified surface (calculated) curvature over Florida's surface, length and width? You can't tell me, right? Give up!

You were right, my numbers for an equinoctial solar sunset were wrong.
From the observer in Mineapolis (M) Sun's angular diameter should change from 0.5 degrees at N to 0.29 degrees at S.
From the observer at the Equator (N) Sun's angular diameter should change from 0.7 degrees at N to 0.23 degrees at S.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now let's go to Florida:

From Daytona Beach to Cedar Key is 121 miles.
Geometric curvature bulge is 0.46 miles.

From Key West to Fernandina beach is 422 miles.
Geometric curvature bulge is 5.62 miles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The theory is not mine.
It is the result of millennia of ground measurements.
Recently it is confirmed by satellite measurements.

.....
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Plat Terra

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #601 on: August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM »
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 09, 2019, 11:12:52 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
What does that have to do with what you quoted me on? Are you ignoring what I wrote and going down a bunny trail?

This is what you asked isn't it?
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change  greatly on a Plane Earth?

In order to answer that question I need to know where do you think the sun is at given time and what does you FE map look like.

This is RE on December 22nd 2019 at  22:00 UTC


Can you provide a similar image with sun position and daylight limits on FE map for 22.12.2019? What will be the height of the sun on  22.12.2019?

If you can't answer simple questions like where is the sun, what is the shape of the sun or where is the sun setting and rising at a given time, I'll have to conclude that the FE model you keep talking about doesn't exist. You just have a general idea that the earth is flat and the sun hovers over it and that's it.

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.
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rabinoz

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #602 on: August 09, 2019, 11:36:38 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 10:04:51 PM
OMG, the horizon is just a few hundred feet away (bottom picture) and it's not at eye level. What is a Flat Earther to do?
Water limits how far you can see. . .

Could you have cherry-picked a worse example?

But I agree that even if the earth were flat the finite visibility through air would mean that Europe could never be seen from America.

Why didn't you post one like this?


And here is Chicago from Michigan City, IN at 33 miles from the skyline and the limited visibility through the atmosphere does not seem to be a problem!

But something is certainly hiding half the sun and most of Chicago. I wonder if it might be the "curvature of the water ::)".

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Plat Terra

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #603 on: August 09, 2019, 11:41:04 PM »
Quote from: Macarios on August 09, 2019, 11:20:56 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 10:31:20 PM
Quote from: Macarios on August 09, 2019, 10:10:28 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:09:53 AM
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change  greatly on a Plane Earth?

Because the distance from the observer is changing greatly during the day.

Let's say you are in Mineapolis, 45 degrees north, 3110 miles away from the Equator.

For equinoctial solar noon when the Sun is above the Equator you can see it due south 45 degrees above the horizon.
You have simple isoceles right triangle Sun-Equator-Mineapolis that shows the sun 3110 miles above the Equator and 4398 miles away from you.
The Sun's angular diameter is 0.5 degrees, and to have that the required Sun radius has to be R = tan(0.25) * 4398 = 19 miles.
So, Sun's diameter has to be 38 miles.
At the same moment another observer at the Equator would have the Sun directly over head.
The angular diameter of the Sun from there should be 2 * ArcTan(19 / 3110) = 0.7 degrees.
But it is not, it is still 0.5 degrees.

Six hours later the Sun is 90 degrees west from where it was at solar noon.
Ground distance from Mineapolis grew from 3110 to 5387 miles, making direct line distance to be
SQRT(31102 + 53872) = 6220 miles.
The Sun with radius of 19 miles should have angular diameter of 2 * ArcTan(19 / 6220) = 0.35 degrees.
That's the chabge from 0.5 to 0.35 in 6 hours.
In reality you don't have that change.

From that other observer at the Equator, ground distance was increased from zero to 6220 miles,
which makes the direct line distance increased from 3110 to 6954 miles.
At the new distance the Sun with radius of 19 miles should have the angular diameter of
2 * ArcTan(19 / 6954) = 0.31 degrees.
That's the change from 0.7 to 0.31 in six hours.
Again, in reality you don't have that change.

In reality the Sun's angular diameter, seen from anywhere on Earth, is still those 0.5 degrees.




I see you have not included the flat Earth model in your specs. So it's just a myth.

And you can calculate all that but you are incapable of verifying (calculate) the actually (alleged) curvature (through calculation) of any landmass or canal?  Do the right thing and prove the foundation of your theory.

Whats the actually verified surface (calculated) curvature over Florida's surface, length and width? You can't tell me, right? Give up!

You were right, my numbers for an equinoctial solar sunset were wrong.
From the observer in Mineapolis (M) Sun's angular diameter should change from 0.5 degrees at N to 0.29 degrees at S.
From the observer at the Equator (N) Sun's angular diameter should change from 0.7 degrees at N to 0.23 degrees at S.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now let's go to Florida:

From Daytona Beach to Cedar Key is 121 miles.
Geometric curvature bulge is 0.46 miles.

From Key West to Fernandina beach is 422 miles.
Geometric curvature bulge is 5.62 miles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The theory is not mine.
It is the result of millennia of ground measurements.
Recently it is confirmed by satellite measurements.

.....

Yes the theory is not yours nor does it pertain to the length and width of Florida as verified surface curvature, and you have not including the morning horizon  which will have about the same angular size as sunset.   Then what is the difference between sunrise, sunset and Noon?
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Plat Terra

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #604 on: August 09, 2019, 11:44:16 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on August 09, 2019, 11:36:38 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 10:04:51 PM
OMG, the horizon is just a few hundred feet away (bottom picture) and it's not at eye level. What is a Flat Earther to do?
Water limits how far you can see. . .

Could you have cherry-picked a worse example?

But I agree that even if the earth were flat the finite visibility through air would mean that Europe could never be seen from America.

Why didn't you post one like this?


And here is Chicago from Michigan City, IN at 33 miles from the skyline and the limited visibility through the atmosphere does not seem to be a problem!

But something is certainly hiding half the sun and most of Chicago. I wonder if it might be the "curvature of the water ::)".



Wow, that's a nice flat non curved horizon. Thanks for sharing. I will have to add this to my collection.
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The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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sokarul

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #605 on: August 09, 2019, 11:47:10 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 09, 2019, 11:12:52 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
What does that have to do with what you quoted me on? Are you ignoring what I wrote and going down a bunny trail?

This is what you asked isn't it?
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change  greatly on a Plane Earth?

In order to answer that question I need to know where do you think the sun is at given time and what does you FE map look like.

This is RE on December 22nd 2019 at  22:00 UTC


Can you provide a similar image with sun position and daylight limits on FE map for 22.12.2019? What will be the height of the sun on  22.12.2019?

If you can't answer simple questions like where is the sun, what is the shape of the sun or where is the sun setting and rising at a given time, I'll have to conclude that the FE model you keep talking about doesn't exist. You just have a general idea that the earth is flat and the sun hovers over it and that's it.



Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.

Are you suggesting objects further away don’t appear smaller?
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kopfverderber

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #606 on: August 09, 2019, 11:53:17 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.

The question has been answered several times in this thread by now, but you tell people they are not using the FE model. When we ask you what is the FE model you don't answer. How can we use the FE model if there is no FE model?

Is there a FE model? where is it? or is it a secret?
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rabinoz

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #607 on: August 10, 2019, 12:30:03 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on August 08, 2019, 02:36:28 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 07, 2019, 05:12:12 PM
As stated before,

By the way I'm waiting for an answer for:
Quote from: rabinoz on August 06, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 05, 2019, 11:35:40 PM
<< See below. >>
Either prove that "Newton and others falsified the moon's rotation" or admit that you are making up fairy tales again.

I didn't forget.

In response to the fairy tales you accept and teach.
Sorry, but seem you have forgotten that I asked you this:
Quote from: rabinoz on August 08, 2019, 02:36:28 AM
By the way I'm waiting for a proof of this:
Quote from: rabinoz on August 06, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 05, 2019, 11:35:40 PM

Either prove that "Newton and others falsified the moon's rotation" or admit that you are making up fairy tales again.
Failure to prove your claim will be taken as an admission that "that you are making up fairy tales again".
And now onto to your next fallacy:
I'll ignore the first part other than to say that it seems to be based on the completely erroneous premise the Copernicus was the one who changed from the flat earth to the Globe.

He wasn't!
Since before 300 BC the Greeks had believed the earth was a Globe and by the first century AD that had become the accepted in the Greek and Roman regions.
A bit after 100 AD Claudius Ptolemy wrote his treatise on the spherical earth at the centre of the celestial spheres - the cosmology of the time.

I don't know when that was first carried into the Arab and Middle Eastern regions but there is no doubt that by a little after 500 AD the geocentric system of Ptolemy was the earth shape accepted there.

I can give you any amount of evidence you like for that. I'll assume that you've read
When will RE Community Accept Defeat? « Message by rabinoz on Today at 12:14:34 PM ».

What Copernicus did was to see that the motions of the planets did not fit well with the Ptolemy's system and proposed his heliocentric system.
Unfortunately it, like Ptolemy's, assumed perfect circles and was no better.

Quote from: Plat Terra

Your text is correct to the extent that observations, without careful measurements, on earth alone cannot tell the the sun, etc obit the Globe or that the Globe rotates.

That does not mean that that there is no way to distinguish a flat earth from a spherical earth.

But your diagram on the right is totally incorrect. For a start you say "Not possible on a Sphere"!
The shape of the earth would be totally unrelated to whether there might be "ripples".

Then ripples would not be caused by moving without any vibration at any speed.
Have you never flown in a plane at over 600 mph (ground speed) in smooth air - hardly a ripple on your drinks.

There is no reason that something as massive as the earth would shake or wobble enough to cause ripples - unless there are nearby earthquakes.

When will you learn that your failure to understand the Globe is no evidence against Globe.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:32:19 AM by rabinoz »
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JackBlack

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #608 on: August 10, 2019, 02:33:54 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?
Show me why.
I already did. You ignored it.
The FE model with the sun orbiting some 5000 km above Earth results in massively different distances to the sun at various times such as mid day and sunset.
This will result in the sun appearing with drastically different sizes.

Why do you just ignore these responses and repeat the same ridiculous question?

In order for the sun to maintain a consistent angular size across Earth, regardless of the time it is viewed, the distance to the sun needs to remain roughly the same.
That means the distance to the sun must be many times the size of Earth.
That would also mean everyone would see the sun in the same apparent direction.

So the only way for that to work on a FE is with an ancient FE model where the sun circles Earth, going below it and having day for everyone on Earth at once.
It would also mean if the sun appeared directly above for one person, it would be basically that for everyone.
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kopfverderber

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #609 on: August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.

Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

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frenat

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #610 on: August 10, 2019, 05:22:47 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:44:16 PM

Wow, that's a nice flat non curved horizon. Thanks for sharing. I will have to add this to my collection.

Exactly as it should appear with a globe Earth for that viewing height. But thanks for proving you don't understand the subject.
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Plat Terra

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #611 on: August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM »
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.



Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

 Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?
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Stash

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #612 on: August 10, 2019, 09:26:08 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.



Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

 Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?

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Plat Terra

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #613 on: August 10, 2019, 10:48:41 AM »
Quote from: Stash on August 10, 2019, 09:26:08 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.



Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

 Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?



Does the Moon move in a straight line in the Globe theory? It's doesn't over this Flat Plane. It circles above. And you leave out a very important element and I understand why.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 10:51:50 AM by Plat Terra »
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The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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Stash

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #614 on: August 10, 2019, 11:27:31 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 10:48:41 AM
Quote from: Stash on August 10, 2019, 09:26:08 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM

Original question.

Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?

Show me why.



Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

 Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?



Does the Moon move in a straight line in the Globe theory? It's doesn't over this Flat Plane. It circles above. And you leave out a very important element and I understand why.

Great, so if it circles above the flat plane as you claim, why can't you tell us where it is? Since you can't tell us where it is you can't claim with any certainty that it circles in any particular way. In other words, how would you know where the sun goes and how it gets there? You've provided nothing in the way of evidence that you know even the slightest about your 'flat earth mechanics'.

If you think you know the suns path is circular above the plane then why don't you tell us where your sun will be today just before your sunset? I bet you can't do it because you have no idea of it's path whatsoever.
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kopfverderber

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #615 on: August 10, 2019, 02:14:47 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?

Do you always answer questions with another question?  Angular size seems constant throughout the day,  there might be some small differences, but I haven't measured it personally.  Have you measured it?  Then please share your data.

I found this picture, size of the sun looks rather constant:


Maybe you can start answering some questions too. Why doesn't the sun get smaller when it gets further away?
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rabinoz

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #616 on: August 10, 2019, 02:37:00 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Original question.
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?
Show me why.

Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?
That is not the point!
If the sun's path were as described on that flat earth diagram the sun should appear about THREE times bigger when overhead than at sunrise or sunset.

Kopfverderber tried to explain it to you in his post and I tried to carefully go into all the detail in For the Trolls Here « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 10:11:09 PM » but you seemed incapable of understanding what kopfverderber was explaining and you completely ignored my post.

If the above model does not fit what you believe please explain in detail the layout of your flat earth and the path of the sun, moon and stars.
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Stash

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Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #617 on: August 10, 2019, 03:24:20 PM »
Herein lies the problem. Plat doesn't have a model. The most we know about his non-model is:

- The earth is Flat
- The sun moves in a circle above the flat earth at a height of 3200 miles

That's the whole shooting match. He can't tell us where his Sun is, nor where it goes. He can't tell us the distance between any two points. He knows nothing of the Globe model he's fighting against. It's like he's living in a cave 5000 years ago but somehow has electricity, a computer and a web connection.

Until he can answer any of the rudimentary even mundane questions we have asked, it's impossible to respond.
Logged
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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #618 on: August 10, 2019, 03:38:03 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?
Yes, the sun has the same angular size at sunrise and sunset, regardless of where you are one Earth, and the same angular size as the sun at any other point in the day.
And as shown, that is not what you would expect for the modern FE model.
Instead you would expect it to change in size significantly.

Why do you keep ignoring this?

Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 10:48:41 AM
Does the Moon move in a straight line in the Globe theory? It's doesn't over this Flat Plane. It circles above. And you leave out a very important element and I understand why.
What important element has been left out?
Certainly not the circling, as that makes no difference.
All that would mean is you would face in a slightly different direction.

This circling above would not magically make the distance remain roughly the same. The distance still varies dramatically as you move to different locations on Earth and observe at different times, failing to match reality.
This circling above would not magically make the object appear to go below or even touch the horizon.

In order to have the sun and moon set you need to have it circle in a plane not parallel to the surface of Earth, e.g. one perpendicular, so it literally goes below.
In order to have them remain roughly the same size, you need the distance to remain roughly the same, which like I have said, means you need to have the distance to them many times the size of Earth.
This would then mean they appear in the same direction to everyone.
Again, this makes reality fundamentally incompatible with a FE.

A RE can explain it.
The angular size remains basically the same, because the distance remains basically the same.
They set, because the rotation of Earth puts them below the horizon.

So why should RE accept defeat when it explains reality so well and FE is completely incapable of explaining it.
Logged
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Plat Terra

  • 1121
  • I am a Neutral Flat Earther
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #619 on: August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM »
Quote from: rabinoz on August 10, 2019, 02:37:00 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Original question.
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?
Show me why.

Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?
That is not the point!
If the sun's path were as described on that flat earth diagram the sun should appear about THREE times bigger when overhead than at sunrise or sunset.

Kopfverderber tried to explain it to you in his post and I tried to carefully go into all the detail in For the Trolls Here « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 10:11:09 PM » but you seemed incapable of understanding what kopfverderber was explaining and you completely ignored my post.

If the above model does not fit what you believe please explain in detail the layout of your flat earth and the path of the sun, moon and stars.

I am working on my reply, and I completely understand the question. But how is any answer I give, going to make the surface of this Earth magically rise up, curve and conform to a sphere so you can actually verify it for the first time?

You nor anyone one else has been capable of doing so ever since the Globe theory began. You say you have but that means nothing when you have not provided the actually curvature verification and measurements of Earth's landmass and canals showing how it conforms to a 3959 mile radius sphere as claimed.

With such an issue and debate of the shape of the Earth, the Globe community could have shut idea down long ago with actually proof, but they haven't because they can't, it's not possible. So we debate your fantasies and things you make up thinking it matters but when the day is over Earth is still a Plane.
Logged
The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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Macarios

  • 2093
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #620 on: August 10, 2019, 04:39:31 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:41:04 PM
Yes the theory is not yours nor does it pertain to the length and width of Florida as verified surface curvature, and you have not including the morning horizon  which will have about the same angular size as sunset.   Then what is the difference between sunrise, sunset and Noon?

If anone could understand what did you ask...

Let me try to make some sense out of your sentence:

The morning horizon is not related to the size of Florida, or the percentage of the planet's surface that Florida occupies.

The sunrise and sunset in the Rowbotham's FE model will have the same angular diameter of the Sun, little less than 0.3 degrees.
The solar noon in the Rowbotham's FE model will have the Sun's angular diameter much bigger. Roughly two to three times bigger.

Another difference between sunrise, sunset and noon would be the azimuth of the Sun.
Logged
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.
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Crutchwater

  • 2151
  • Stop Indoctrinating me!
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #621 on: August 10, 2019, 04:41:57 PM »
If the earth is flat, like you claim, the reply you're working on should allow us to verify it "for the first time", without the surface of the earth magically rising up, curving, and conforming to a sphere!
Logged
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.
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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #622 on: August 10, 2019, 04:42:59 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM
I am working on my reply, and I completely understand the question. But how is any answer I give, going to make the surface of this Earth magically rise up, curve and conform to a sphere so you can actually verify it for the first time?
You have been shown plenty of evidence for the curvature but you ignore everything or explain it away with nonsense excuses.
Ships becoming hidden behind "something" is very commonly observed and you "it's just humidity" is quite meaningless!

In any case, any failure to easily demonstrate curvature does not prove that the earth is not a sphere.

Quote from: Plat Terra
You nor anyone one else has been capable of doing so ever since the Globe theory began. You say you have but that means nothing when you have not provided the actually curvature verification and measurements of Earth's landmass and canals showing how it conforms to a 3959 mile radius sphere as claimed.

With such an issue and debate of the shape of the Earth, the Globe community could have shut idea down long ago with actually proof, but they haven't because they can't, it's not possible. So we debate your fantasies and things you make up thinking it matters but when the day is over Earth is still a Plane.
The issue has been shut down long ago but people like you keep popping up doubting history, science, geodetic surveying, astronomy etc.

If the earth is flat then there has to be:
  • a "continental layout" that fits the known distances between all the continents,

  • a "continental layout" that allows circumnavigation in all directions without "falling off the edge" or "meeting an impassable barrier",

  • an explanation for the moon appearing to rise from behind "something" stay the same size till setting behind "something",

  • an explanation for the moon appearing to remain the same size no matter where they are viewed from on the earth,

  • an explanation for the same observations of the sun,

  • an explanation for the stars in the Northern Hemisphere appearing to rotate counter-clockwise about a single point always due north and near Polaris but
    the stars in the Southern Hemisphere appearing to rotate clockwise about a single point due south and near the faint star Sigma Octantis.
That's just the start and all those bits of evidence put together might explain why the Globe has been the accepted shape in many parts of the world from before 300 BC.

 
Logged
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JackBlack

  • 21703
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #623 on: August 10, 2019, 05:55:02 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM
I am working on my reply, and I completely understand the question. But how is any answer I give, going to make the surface of this Earth magically rise up, curve and conform to a sphere so you can actually verify it for the first time?
It wont.
You would have to get rid of a lot of history to be able to be the first person to verify the curvature.
That has been done so many times it isn't funny.
No one makes a big deal about it because they already know Earth is round.

Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM
With such an issue and debate of the shape of the Earth, the Globe community could have shut idea down long ago with actually proof
And they did, thousands of years ago.
And then even more evidence was collected over time.

Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM
but when the day is over Earth is still a Plane.
No, it isn't.
If it was you would have easily been able to answer the question.
You wouldn't repeatedly set up pathetic strawmen of RE, or outright lies to pretend there is a problem with a RE. You would have provided actual problems.

So no, Earth is not a plane. It never has been. Earth is round, as indicated by all the available evidence.
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Plat Terra

  • 1121
  • I am a Neutral Flat Earther
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #624 on: August 10, 2019, 07:31:20 PM »
I haven't  forgot. It will be a detailed response addressing more than one issue. Titled something like "Where Did the Flat Earth Sun Go?
Logged
The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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rabinoz

  • 26528
  • Real Earth Believer
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #625 on: August 10, 2019, 07:53:55 PM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 07:31:20 PM
I haven't  forgot. It will be a detailed response addressing more than one issue. Titled something like "Where Did the Flat Earth Sun Go?
Don't forget to gives details of path you think the sun follows in the various seasons. In particular:
  • The March and September equinoxes when the sun rises close to due east and sets close to due west everywhere on earth except close to the Poles.
    Even as far North as Thule, Greenland (77.5° N, 69.2° W), on the 23rd of September the sun will rise at 86° (4° from due east) and set at 273° (3° from due west).

  • The Northern summer solstice and the Souther summer solstice.
We'll wait and see but details of the sun's movements have been studied for many centuries so it will be easy to see if your ideas fit.
Logged
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Smoke Machine

  • 3146
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #626 on: August 11, 2019, 07:13:15 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on August 10, 2019, 02:37:00 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: kopfverderber on August 10, 2019, 02:51:04 AM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Original question.
Why does the Sun's angular size have to change greatly on a Plane Earth?
Show me why.

Since don't seem to have a FE model, I picked a FE map I found. If your FE map is different, please post it here. If we look at the position of the sun during December Equinox when it's morning in Australia:
Perth (Australia): Morning aprox. 1h after sunrise
New Orleans (US): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset
Buenos Aires (Argentina): Evening aprox. 1h before sunset

This is on the FE map I found:


If I assume FE sun floating at low height (5000km), we can see New Orleans is much closer to the sun than Buenos Aires. Angular size depends on distance, so the sun should look quite smaller from Buenos Aires, but it doesn't. What is the FE explanation for this?

While you are at it, how is it possible that people from Perth and Buenos Aires see the sun at the same time in December, yet the north pole is in the dark? Shouldn't the sun be closer to the north pole than to either of those two cities?

Sunrise and sunset have the same angular size, right?
That is not the point!
If the sun's path were as described on that flat earth diagram the sun should appear about THREE times bigger when overhead than at sunrise or sunset.

Kopfverderber tried to explain it to you in his post and I tried to carefully go into all the detail in For the Trolls Here « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 10:11:09 PM » but you seemed incapable of understanding what kopfverderber was explaining and you completely ignored my post.

If the above model does not fit what you believe please explain in detail the layout of your flat earth and the path of the sun, moon and stars.

I am working on my reply, and I completely understand the question. But how is any answer I give, going to make the surface of this Earth magically rise up, curve and conform to a sphere so you can actually verify it for the first time?

You nor anyone one else has been capable of doing so ever since the Globe theory began. You say you have but that means nothing when you have not provided the actually curvature verification and measurements of Earth's landmass and canals showing how it conforms to a 3959 mile radius sphere as claimed.

With such an issue and debate of the shape of the Earth, the Globe community could have shut idea down long ago with actually proof, but they haven't because they can't, it's not possible. So we debate your fantasies and things you make up thinking it matters but when the day is over Earth is still a Plane.

You love just typing meaningless words, don't you plat terror?

Believe me when I say this. There is no issue or debate of the shape of the earth. You have been radicalized and need to spend some time in a health retreat and be deprogrammed.

Do you think there are 77 virgins waiting for you if you continue to humiliate yourself?
Logged
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Plat Terra

  • 1121
  • I am a Neutral Flat Earther
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #627 on: August 11, 2019, 08:58:31 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz on August 10, 2019, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 07:31:20 PM
I haven't  forgot. It will be a detailed response addressing more than one issue. Titled something like "Where Did the Flat Earth Sun Go?
Don't forget to gives details of path you think the sun follows in the various seasons. In particular:
  • The March and September equinoxes when the sun rises close to due east and sets close to due west everywhere on earth except close to the Poles.
    Even as far North as Thule, Greenland (77.5° N, 69.2° W), on the 23rd of September the sun will rise at 86° (4° from due east) and set at 273° (3° from due west).

  • The Northern summer solstice and the Souther summer solstice.
We'll wait and see but details of the sun's movements have been studied for many centuries so it will be easy to see if your ideas fit.

I am a newbie give me some time.

And do you know what you left out of your Sun's Angular size argument? Did you do it on purpose or didn't think about it?
Logged
The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #628 on: August 11, 2019, 10:49:59 AM »
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 11, 2019, 08:58:31 AM
Quote from: rabinoz on August 10, 2019, 07:53:55 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 10, 2019, 07:31:20 PM
I haven't  forgot. It will be a detailed response addressing more than one issue. Titled something like "Where Did the Flat Earth Sun Go?
Don't forget to gives details of path you think the sun follows in the various seasons. In particular:
  • The March and September equinoxes when the sun rises close to due east and sets close to due west everywhere on earth except close to the Poles.
    Even as far North as Thule, Greenland (77.5° N, 69.2° W), on the 23rd of September the sun will rise at 86° (4° from due east) and set at 273° (3° from due west).

  • The Northern summer solstice and the Souther summer solstice.
We'll wait and see but details of the sun's movements have been studied for many centuries so it will be easy to see if your ideas fit.

I am a newbie give me some time.

And do you know what you left out of your Sun's Angular size argument? Did you do it on purpose or didn't think about it?
Nice try.  Psychology is not your strong suit.

Explain in detail what you think is missing.
Logged
Rabinoz RIP

Quote from: wise on April 07, 2023, 02:25:15 AM
That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.
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Plat Terra

  • 1121
  • I am a Neutral Flat Earther
Re: When will RE Community Accept Defeat?
« Reply #629 on: August 11, 2019, 02:28:32 PM »
Quote from: Macarios on August 10, 2019, 04:39:31 PM
Quote from: Plat Terra on August 09, 2019, 11:41:04 PM
Yes the theory is not yours nor does it pertain to the length and width of Florida as verified surface curvature, and you have not including the morning horizon  which will have about the same angular size as sunset.   Then what is the difference between sunrise, sunset and Noon?

If anone could understand what did you ask...

Let me try to make some sense out of your sentence:

The morning horizon is not related to the size of Florida, or the percentage of the planet's surface that Florida occupies.

The sunrise and sunset in the Rowbotham's FE model will have the same angular diameter of the Sun, little less than 0.3 degrees.
The solar noon in the Rowbotham's FE model will have the Sun's angular diameter much bigger. Roughly two to three times bigger.

Another difference between sunrise, sunset and noon would be the azimuth of the Sun.

I was expressing a point that nothing matters because no one has actually proved, verified the alleged surface (length and width) curvature of any landmass. It's all assumptions and claims. No argument will prove it to be true.
Logged
The Globe community is incapable of verifying Earth has the curvature calculated through experiment or claimed by anyone. They can measure a band of helium but they can’t actually measure and verify the dictated curvature of any landmass or canal. Why not?
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