HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

I know they stick rigidly to their mainstream ideals. I get that and I get they don't want to listen to outside views.

You mean how we stick to reality and verifiable models rather than accept your self-contradictory, unsubstantiated nonsense?

We listen to outside views. That doesn't mean we just accept whatever is said.
Your complete inability to answer a very simple question which destroys your claims shows quite clearly that the issue is not us not wanting to listen and instead it is entirely your inability to defend your nonsense.

Meanwhile, you actually describe yourself fairly well, with how you rigidly stick to your pure nonsense and reject any alternative even though you can provide no argument against it.

Understand why this does what it does and you'll start to understand why your space rocket doesn't work.

Try again, with an actual understanding of how it works you will understand how a space rocket works.

Again, you have completely ignored the question and the key issue for this thread.

The reason is quite obvious. YOU HAVE NO ANSWER!
You know that either rockets work in a vacuum or the gas needs to be trapped by pure magic.
You can't handle that so you just avoid, avoid, avoid.

The question and issue is really very simple, yet you continue to avoid it.
Again, you claim that a rocket can't work in a vacuum because it has nothing to push off.
If that was the case then the gas cannot exit the tube, because it has nothing to push off.

So either accept your claim is wrong and that either things don't need to push off something, or there is something in the vacuum to push off; or admit that your model requires gases to remain trapped inside open containers.

If you wish to disagree then tell us what the gas is pushing off and why that doesn't mean rockets work in a vacuum.

Quote from: Macarios on December 02, 2019, 06:54:24 PM

Quote from: hoppy on December 02, 2019, 10:30:30 AM

Hey skeppy, you are doing a good job explaining how a rocket works.
These people pretending they don't understand are paid to do so, or perhaps brainwashed beyond being able to think on their own.
 You are doing a good job explaining.

You mean "how a rocket doesn't work" (whatever it implies)?

His explanation actually shows how molecules expand,
push each other out of the chamber,
and in the process push themselves and the chamber off the pushed molecules.

Withou that push no molecues would exit, and that push unavoidably causes the reaction push.

You still don't get it.

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

But they can fly in the atmosphere, that's how they get to space. And the reason they don't plummet back down is because the acceleration provided by the rocket launch keeps the spaceship mobile. As they're in 0 gravity, they float there. Gravity does not act on the object as it is either moving to fast for the force to get a hold of it or it has already reached a low enough orbit not to fall back into the Earth. Remember, gravity is one of the weakest natural forces in existence, and is the reason life is possible on this planet; if it was too strong, it would crush us and the pressure from the above atmosphere would be emmensely overpowering and it would make it extremely difficult to move but if it was too weak, the atmosphere would escape from the planet and we would be unable to breathe (much like what has happened on the moon).

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 02, 2019, 10:12:18 PM

Quote from: Macarios on December 02, 2019, 06:54:24 PM

Quote from: hoppy on December 02, 2019, 10:30:30 AM

Hey skeppy, you are doing a good job explaining how a rocket works.
These people pretending they don't understand are paid to do so, or perhaps brainwashed beyond being able to think on their own.
 You are doing a good job explaining.

You mean "how a rocket doesn't work" (whatever it implies)?

His explanation actually shows how molecules expand,
push each other out of the chamber,
and in the process push themselves and the chamber off the pushed molecules.

Withou that push no molecues would exit, and that push unavoidably causes the reaction push.

You still don't get it.

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Pretty much the crux of the biscuit and what JackB has been saying/asking about all along.

at 0.04 the spring is fully compressed storing its potential energy.
at 0.05 the finger is removed releasing the energy stored in the spring,
at 0.06 the spring cannot push down the board, so it pushes the head up, flying off the board.
at 0.12 GRAVITY has brought down the Spring head to create all kinds of mayhem.
Is my interpretation correct?

I do not see how this can be translated to how Rockets work.

It doesn't. It translates into why they do not work and what really happens.

You forgot the suction cup is not a perfect seal and slowly lets air under it so that when the suction is less than the spring it pops

That cup is not clamped as tight because it is a weak structure, meaning the air inside it is already small in terms of psi.
This means the spring can push the atmosphere away from it, resulting in the uncoiling.

It doesn't. It translates into why they do not work and what really happens.

It doesn't. It in no way indicates that rockets can't work.

Again, the crux of the issue, which you have been avoiding for countless pages, shows that rockets do work.

If you wish to disagree then actually address the issue and actually answer the question.
Tell us what the gas is pushing off which allows it to move but doesn't allow the rocket to move.

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 02, 2019, 10:12:18 PM

Quote from: Macarios on December 02, 2019, 06:54:24 PM

Quote from: hoppy on December 02, 2019, 10:30:30 AM

Hey skeppy, you are doing a good job explaining how a rocket works.
These people pretending they don't understand are paid to do so, or perhaps brainwashed beyond being able to think on their own.
 You are doing a good job explaining.

You mean "how a rocket doesn't work" (whatever it implies)?

His explanation actually shows how molecules expand,
push each other out of the chamber,
and in the process push themselves and the chamber off the pushed molecules.

Withou that push no molecues would exit, and that push unavoidably causes the reaction push.

You still don't get it.

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Pretty much the crux of the biscuit and what JackB has been saying/asking about all along.

What you're all saying is not what my theory is so you're all wrong.

How so?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 03, 2019, 11:41:26 PM

It doesn't. It translates into why they do not work and what really happens.

It doesn't. It in no way indicates that rockets can't work.

Again, the crux of the issue, which you have been avoiding for countless pages, shows that rockets do work.

If you wish to disagree then actually address the issue and actually answer the question.
Tell us what the gas is pushing off which allows it to move but doesn't allow the rocket to move.

You said rockets work on a recoil type of action. Basically kicking themselves up from inside with zero help externally.
In fact you people go on about external atmosphere being a massive hindrance to the rocket. It actually beggars belief but there you go.

A simple pop up spring easily shows your space rockets to be nonsense.
It also clearly shows why my gauge argument is correct.

How so?

For all the reasons I've been explaining. The same reasons that you lot think you get but clearly don't.
You get a small portion of it then totally lose it.

Quote from: Stash on December 04, 2019, 01:29:54 AM

How so?

For all the reasons I've been explaining. The same reasons that you lot think you get but clearly don't.
You get a small portion of it then totally lose it.

You had a whole thing about "push on push" and now it's an "expand on no push". What are we to think?

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

No, clearly we DO get it, and realise your model is nonsense.
Pretending no one gets it and your model is fine only sets you back further.

How about you stop with the insults and start with the explanation, or if you can't explain it, just admit you are wrong?

What you're all saying is not what my theory is so you're all wrong.

You don't have a theory. You have wild speculation supported by nothing.
What we are saying regarding your model is based entirely upon what you have said.

Again, you claim that rockets cannot work in a vacuum because they don't have anything to push off (/use as leverage/resistance/wahtever) and without something to push off things can move.
But if that is the case, that things do need something external to push off, and there is no such thing in a vacuum, then the same applies to the gas. That means the gas would be unable to leave the rocket/tube as there is nothing for it to push off.

Again, if you want to honestly claim we don't get it or what we are saying isn't based upon your model you need to address this massive problem of yours.

Again, either the rocket works, or the gas can't leave.
You are yet to even attempt to provide an alternative. Doing so requires telling us what the gas is pushing off and why that doesn't meant the rocket works as well.

You said rockets work on a recoil type of action. Basically kicking themselves up from inside with zero help externally.

No, I have never said that. That has repeatedly been your strawman as you can't actually attack how rockets really work.
However you have come close to saying the gas basically kicks itself up from the inside with zero help externally.

Again, there are 2 simple ways to think about it.
One is similar to recoil. The rocket expels gas at a high speed and the rocket recoils in response to that.
That is not the rocket kicking itself, that is the rocket "kicking away" the gas.
The other way, which provides more detail is that the gas inside the rocket exerts pressure in all directions. This is accelerates the gas closer to the edge in one direction and accelerates the rocket (and gas closer to the rocket) in the other direction.

No "kicking themselves up".

In fact you people go on about external atmosphere being a massive hindrance to the rocket.

No, I have never said it is a hindrance. And for everyone who actually understands how rockets actually work it doesn't beggar belief at all.

A simple pop up spring easily shows your space rockets to be nonsense.
It also clearly shows why my gauge argument is correct.

No, it shows nothing of the sort.
It works entirely with conventional physics.

If you really think it does, why don't you explain how?

Or better yet, why don't you address my question which clearly shows your claims to be pure nonsense.

Again, what is the gas pushing off?

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Quote from: MouseWalker on December 02, 2019, 11:07:34 PM

at 0.04 the spring is fully compressed storing its potential energy.
at 0.05 the finger is removed releasing the energy stored in the spring,
at 0.06 the spring cannot push down the board, so it pushes the head up, flying off the board.
at 0.12 GRAVITY has brought down the Spring head to create all kinds of mayhem.
Is my interpretation correct?

I do not see how this can be translated to how Rockets work.

It doesn't. It translates into why they do not work and what really happens.

But do you agree, what is happening with the spring Head?

Quote from: JackBlack on December 04, 2019, 12:33:02 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 03, 2019, 11:41:26 PM

It doesn't. It translates into why they do not work and what really happens.

It doesn't. It in no way indicates that rockets can't work.

Again, the crux of the issue, which you have been avoiding for countless pages, shows that rockets do work.

If you wish to disagree then actually address the issue and actually answer the question.
Tell us what the gas is pushing off which allows it to move but doesn't allow the rocket to move.

You said rockets work on a recoil type of action. Basically kicking themselves up from inside with zero help externally.
In fact you people go on about external atmosphere being a massive hindrance to the rocket. It actually beggars belief but there you go.

A simple pop up spring easily shows your space rockets to be nonsense.
It also clearly shows why my gauge argument is correct.

Turn the popup spring on its side.
Is it able to push off the air and move?

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:30:58 AM

Quote from: Stash on December 04, 2019, 01:29:54 AM

How so?

For all the reasons I've been explaining. The same reasons that you lot think you get but clearly don't.
You get a small portion of it then totally lose it.

You had a whole thing about "push on push" and now it's an "expand on no push". What are we to think?

No it's not. It's the inability of people like yourself to grasp it or decide to twist it all to suit yourselves.
Carry on doing it but smart logical people will get it.

Again, what is the gas pushing off?

Gas/fluid.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Of course it has back push but on the gas. On the gas. On the gas....not the rocket interior.

Can you grasp this?

Quote from: Macarios on December 04, 2019, 02:33:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Of course it has back push but on the gas. On the gas. On the gas....not the rocket interior.

Can you grasp this?

something has to push on the rocket.
i think that's what everyone's trying to tell you.
you keep saying the interior is not pushing on the rocket.
but you have a disjoint.

if the force arrows that shoot the water rocket up goes as follows (using denP terms):

foundation->regular air->water->decompressing air->interior air at high compression->rocket

but you claim the last two doesn't happen.
that's the problem.

at 0.04 the spring is fully compressed storing its potential energy.
at 0.05 the finger is removed releasing the energy stored in the spring,
at 0.06 the spring cannot push down the board, so it pushes the head up, flying off the board.


But do you agree, what is happening with the spring Head?

The part above, yes.

In order for it to push the head up it has to have leverage. Something to push off, which it does, it has the plate under it, attached to it.
However, in order for that plate to make the spring jump into the air, it has to also have leverage for that plate.
The table provides this. That's the external leverage anything needs, whether it's a physical start by the end result of potential energy  against a solid base for leverage or compressing a gas/fluid to achieve the same result.
It's all about the ability to compress to create the biggest decompression for every object ready for motion.

Quote from: Macarios on December 04, 2019, 02:33:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Of course it has back push but on the gas. On the gas. On the gas....not the rocket interior.

Can you grasp this?

How does the last bit of gas get out if there is no more gas for it to push off of being that it's the last bit there is?

Quote from: MouseWalker on December 02, 2019, 11:07:34 PM

at 0.04 the spring is fully compressed storing its potential energy.
at 0.05 the finger is removed releasing the energy stored in the spring,
at 0.06 the spring cannot push down the board, so it pushes the head up, flying off the board.


But do you agree, what is happening with the spring Head?

The part above, yes.

In order for it to push the head up it has to have leverage. Something to push off, which it does, it has the plate under it, attached to it.
However, in order for that plate to make the spring jump into the air, it has to also have leverage for that plate.
The table provides this. That's the external leverage anything needs, whether it's a physical start by the end result of potential energy  against a solid base for leverage or compressing a gas/fluid to achieve the same result.
It's all about the ability to compress to create the biggest decompression for every object ready for motion.

Ok you ubdersrand force transfer.
Figure out why the gas inside the tube has to push on the rocket.

It's the inability of people like yourself to grasp it or decide to twist it all to suit yourselves.
Carry on doing it but smart logical people will get it.

You mean is is the ability of smart, logical people like us to grasp it and realise it contradicts itself.

Quote from: JackBlack on December 04, 2019, 02:07:46 AM

Again, what is the gas pushing off?

Gas/fluid.

Which means you have the gas/fluid there for the rocket to push off and thus rockets work in a vacuum.

Again to actually address the issue you either need to admit that rockets do work in a vacuum; claim that the gases stay trapped in the tube open to vacuum; or explain what the gases push off and how that doesn't allow the rocket to move.

See, this is what I mean.
Smart logical people realise that if the rocket can't work because motion requires pushing against something to use as leverage and there is allegedly nothing there for the rocket to push off then the gas can't leave the rocket for the same reasons.
Smart logical people realise that that makes no sense at all as the gas must leave the tube which means the gas must be pushing against the rocket (or something) which that either the gas must push the rocket or their must be something else out there for the gas and rocket to be able to push against and thus rockets must work in a vacuum.

They are your only 2 options. Either both the gas and the rocket can move or neither can.
If you want to pretend there is a third option you will need far more than a few word answer.

If you want to say the gas is pushing off the gas/fluid, that means that there is something to push off in the vacuum of space and thus rockets can push off that and work in a vacuum.

Quote from: Macarios on December 04, 2019, 02:33:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Of course it has back push but on the gas. On the gas. On the gas....not the rocket interior.

Can you grasp this?

Yes, I DO understand it, but I also understand more than you would like me to.

The gas is still expanding and transfering the pressure to the wals of the chamber.

When pushing the portion out, the remaining gas has support in the chamber walls and the force transfers whether we like it or not.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 10:16:06 PM

Quote from: Macarios on December 04, 2019, 02:33:07 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 04, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Quote from: Macarios on December 03, 2019, 05:20:01 AM

Oh, I do get it.
Better than you would like.
And I'm pointing out the difference between your wishes and the reality.

In your wishes the exiting molecules get out without force.
In reality thet get pushed out by force (there is no push without force).

In your wishes they accelerate outwards without resisting the force that pushes them.
In reality EVERY force gets reaction, including the force that pushes those molecules out.

Clearly you don't get it. And pretending you do only sets you back further.

Sets me back from where?

We already established that the portion that exits wouldn't go anywhere without force.
We also established that every force has opposite reaction force of the same intensity.

Now you are trying to tell us that pushing portion of gas out won't produce the back push of the rocket off that portion?

Of course it has back push but on the gas. On the gas. On the gas....not the rocket interior.

Can you grasp this?

How does the last bit of gas get out if there is no more gas for it to push off of being that it's the last bit there is?

It doesn't.

Ok you ubdersrand force transfer.
Figure out why the gas inside the tube has to push on the rocket.

It doesn't. The gas pushes on the gas/fluid. The rocket sits atop of it and simply rides on it.

Quote from: Themightykabool on December 05, 2019, 12:03:34 AM

Ok you ubdersrand force transfer.
Figure out why the gas inside the tube has to push on the rocket.

It doesn't. The gas pushes on the gas/fluid. The rocket sits atop of it and simply rides on it.

Ugh
If you were a surfer sitting on a board riding a wave - the wave pushes the board
The board pushes your feet.

Quote from: sceptimatic on December 05, 2019, 07:06:13 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on December 05, 2019, 12:03:34 AM

Ok you ubdersrand force transfer.
Figure out why the gas inside the tube has to push on the rocket.

It doesn't. The gas pushes on the gas/fluid. The rocket sits atop of it and simply rides on it.

Ugh
If you were a surfer sitting on a board riding a wave - the wave pushes the board
The board pushes your feet.

Yes and if that board was raised up your feet would still be attached to it, higher and higher and higher, because the board is pushed up with you along for the ride.