HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2250 on: November 29, 2019, 08:41:32 AM »
How does your gobbstopper theory explain suction cups?
There's no such thing as suction cups in the sense of the word, suck.
Those cups work because air is pushed out of them by compression to push away the external air, which means the air pushed out is now added to the external air and that overcomes the much weaker molecules of air left inside the cup.
Less push back which leaves the cup clamped to whatever it is clamped against.

Great.
Air molecules can be pushed out.
So people on a bus was your analogy.
Sponges was also your analogy.
So is it possible that spong epoeple on a bus can be completely removed from a bus?

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2251 on: November 29, 2019, 08:43:50 AM »


I mean, how is that actually achieved on the molecular-chemical level?
I told you. Think of the gobstopper.
This below.


See the layers?
Imagine this to be a super dense molecular set of layers in a super dense material. Note the amount of layers but also note how the layers are super small in the centre and super expanded, compared, on the outer layers.

Think of this bunch of layered molecules as part of a material/element of something that's been squashed/compressed to mammoth proportions.


If we want to look at gas molecules we'd simply look at the same gobstopper mindset and picture it with a hell of a lot of less layers.

It takes some getting your head around and can;t simply be explained like this in one fell swoop but you need to get the gist of what I'm saying if you want to understand further and I'll know this by what you type, whether it's worth answering so put some effort in if you're serious.
Nobody's asking you to accept it, just to understand it from my side.

I'm also not interested in you or anyone telling me it's wrong so don't bother with that stuff.

So using your gobstopper theory.

When the molecule expands, does it gain more layers or does it's existing layers get larger?  How?
It loses layers.
How does it expand by losing layers?
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2252 on: November 29, 2019, 12:31:57 PM »
Don't cherry pick quotes and then make them look like something they're not.
I'm not cherry picking anything.
I am providing enough to show that it doesn't answer my question.

How about instead of just providing the full useless quote again you highlight just where in it my question is answered?

You seem to just be doing whatever you can to avoid an extremely simple question, all because you know this extremely simple question destroys your claims.

Again, care to answer it?
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Can you even attempt to answer it?

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.


Until you actually tell me what the gas is pushing off in this situation to allow it to move out of the rocket and into the vacuum, and also address why this doesn't work for the rocket or also result in the rocket moving you have failed to answer the question.

So again, what is the gas pushing off and why doesn't that mean the rocket will move as well?
Refer back to the answers I gave and stop pretending you didn't get answers.
I have explained why the "answers" you gave are not actually answers.
I am not the one pretending here.

The closest you have come to an answer is saying the gas, but that would mean that rockets work in a vacuum because the rocket can use the gas as well.

If you want that to be taken as the answer, then admit that rockets work in a vacuum.

If not, then you have failed to provide an answer.

I will continue to ask for an answer until you actually provide one.

So again, what is the gas pushing off to move?

But thanks for yet again showing that your claims of being happy to deal with one topic are nothing more than blatant lies.
You are only happy to deal with things that don't show you to be completely wrong.

At no time did I ever use sponge people
Really?
Do you not remember this post here:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=82434.msg2215814#msg2215814
Where you gave an analogy of people on a bus, magical people just like your magical sponge molecules, trying to expand?

They do change in size.
You have no evidence that gas molecules change size.
All the evidence indicates they remain the same size.

Think gobstopper and the peel.
Which don't change size either.

It's not just about dreaming, it's about seeing things in life visually/physically and understanding why things work and realising what you were told is not entirely the truth and is only a theory itself.
That's the difference and you can't deny that.
We don't need to deny it when it is so blatantly false.
You are not able to a single problem with mainstream science's explanation of gasses.
You just invent a pile of delusional nonsense to escape the reality of a round Earth.
Meanwhile, plenty of problems in your model have been shown and you just ignore them.

So no, I would say for you it is just about dreaming.
It has no connection to reality at all and you aren't even attempting to make one.
Your pile of nonsense isn't even a theory. it is a collection of contradictory, refuted hypotheses.

Essentially the world has to be flat
And that is the entire basis of your model, the delusional belief that Earth must be flat, which causes you to reject so much of science, because it shows Earth isn't flat.
You have no justification for any of it.

So yes, you are the one with the dreamt up nonsense with no concern for the truth. All of your denspressure nonsense stems from your dream of a flat Earth.

It is so disconnected from reality that you need to avoid extremely simple questions which expose the fact that it doesn't work.
It is so full of contradictions that you only ever want to discuss a single issue in extreme isolation because you know the "explanation" you give for it will contradict another very simple observation.

How do you make a sponge ball in a clenched fist get bigger?
The physical size of the sponge doesn't get bigger.
It just changes its orientation/arrangement such that it has larger openings.

It loses layers.
When a gobstopper loses layers it gets smaller.
How does fewer layers equate to a larger size?
And where are these layers going?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2253 on: November 30, 2019, 12:16:53 AM »
How does your gobbstopper theory explain suction cups?
There's no such thing as suction cups in the sense of the word, suck.
Those cups work because air is pushed out of them by compression to push away the external air, which means the air pushed out is now added to the external air and that overcomes the much weaker molecules of air left inside the cup.
Less push back which leaves the cup clamped to whatever it is clamped against.

Great.
Air molecules can be pushed out.
So people on a bus was your analogy.
Sponges was also your analogy.
So is it possible that spong epoeple on a bus can be completely removed from a bus?
No, not completely.
To remove everything would be to create the free space you people say exist which means a nonexistence of anything and logically we can forget about that....or I can, for obvious reasons.

I told you why there would be molecules left in the container or rocket or using the people in the bus analogy or the sponge ball analogy.
You just refused to understand it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2254 on: November 30, 2019, 12:32:55 AM »


I mean, how is that actually achieved on the molecular-chemical level?
I told you. Think of the gobstopper.
This below.


See the layers?
Imagine this to be a super dense molecular set of layers in a super dense material. Note the amount of layers but also note how the layers are super small in the centre and super expanded, compared, on the outer layers.

Think of this bunch of layered molecules as part of a material/element of something that's been squashed/compressed to mammoth proportions.


If we want to look at gas molecules we'd simply look at the same gobstopper mindset and picture it with a hell of a lot of less layers.

It takes some getting your head around and can;t simply be explained like this in one fell swoop but you need to get the gist of what I'm saying if you want to understand further and I'll know this by what you type, whether it's worth answering so put some effort in if you're serious.
Nobody's asking you to accept it, just to understand it from my side.

I'm also not interested in you or anyone telling me it's wrong so don't bother with that stuff.

So using your gobstopper theory.

When the molecule expands, does it gain more layers or does it's existing layers get larger?  How?
It loses layers.
How does it expand by losing layers?
Because you release the pressure of a layer.



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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2255 on: November 30, 2019, 12:34:31 AM »
Don't cherry pick quotes and then make them look like something they're not.
I'm not cherry picking anything.
I am providing enough to show that it doesn't answer my question.

How about instead of just providing the full useless quote again you highlight just where in it my question is answered?

You seem to just be doing whatever you can to avoid an extremely simple question, all because you know this extremely simple question destroys your claims.

Again, care to answer it?
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Can you even attempt to answer it?

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.


Until you actually tell me what the gas is pushing off in this situation to allow it to move out of the rocket and into the vacuum, and also address why this doesn't work for the rocket or also result in the rocket moving you have failed to answer the question.

So again, what is the gas pushing off and why doesn't that mean the rocket will move as well?
Refer back to the answers I gave and stop pretending you didn't get answers.
I have explained why the "answers" you gave are not actually answers.
I am not the one pretending here.

The closest you have come to an answer is saying the gas, but that would mean that rockets work in a vacuum because the rocket can use the gas as well.

If you want that to be taken as the answer, then admit that rockets work in a vacuum.

If not, then you have failed to provide an answer.

I will continue to ask for an answer until you actually provide one.

So again, what is the gas pushing off to move?

But thanks for yet again showing that your claims of being happy to deal with one topic are nothing more than blatant lies.
You are only happy to deal with things that don't show you to be completely wrong.

At no time did I ever use sponge people
Really?
Do you not remember this post here:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=82434.msg2215814#msg2215814
Where you gave an analogy of people on a bus, magical people just like your magical sponge molecules, trying to expand?

They do change in size.
You have no evidence that gas molecules change size.
All the evidence indicates they remain the same size.

Think gobstopper and the peel.
Which don't change size either.

It's not just about dreaming, it's about seeing things in life visually/physically and understanding why things work and realising what you were told is not entirely the truth and is only a theory itself.
That's the difference and you can't deny that.
We don't need to deny it when it is so blatantly false.
You are not able to a single problem with mainstream science's explanation of gasses.
You just invent a pile of delusional nonsense to escape the reality of a round Earth.
Meanwhile, plenty of problems in your model have been shown and you just ignore them.

So no, I would say for you it is just about dreaming.
It has no connection to reality at all and you aren't even attempting to make one.
Your pile of nonsense isn't even a theory. it is a collection of contradictory, refuted hypotheses.

Essentially the world has to be flat
And that is the entire basis of your model, the delusional belief that Earth must be flat, which causes you to reject so much of science, because it shows Earth isn't flat.
You have no justification for any of it.

So yes, you are the one with the dreamt up nonsense with no concern for the truth. All of your denspressure nonsense stems from your dream of a flat Earth.

It is so disconnected from reality that you need to avoid extremely simple questions which expose the fact that it doesn't work.
It is so full of contradictions that you only ever want to discuss a single issue in extreme isolation because you know the "explanation" you give for it will contradict another very simple observation.

How do you make a sponge ball in a clenched fist get bigger?
The physical size of the sponge doesn't get bigger.
It just changes its orientation/arrangement such that it has larger openings.

It loses layers.
When a gobstopper loses layers it gets smaller.
How does fewer layers equate to a larger size?
And where are these layers going?
You can't say I didn't warn you.

*

Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2256 on: November 30, 2019, 01:13:39 AM »


I mean, how is that actually achieved on the molecular-chemical level?
I told you. Think of the gobstopper.
This below.


See the layers?
Imagine this to be a super dense molecular set of layers in a super dense material. Note the amount of layers but also note how the layers are super small in the centre and super expanded, compared, on the outer layers.

Think of this bunch of layered molecules as part of a material/element of something that's been squashed/compressed to mammoth proportions.


If we want to look at gas molecules we'd simply look at the same gobstopper mindset and picture it with a hell of a lot of less layers.

It takes some getting your head around and can;t simply be explained like this in one fell swoop but you need to get the gist of what I'm saying if you want to understand further and I'll know this by what you type, whether it's worth answering so put some effort in if you're serious.
Nobody's asking you to accept it, just to understand it from my side.

I'm also not interested in you or anyone telling me it's wrong so don't bother with that stuff.

So using your gobstopper theory.

When the molecule expands, does it gain more layers or does it's existing layers get larger?  How?
It loses layers.
How does it expand by losing layers?
Because you release the pressure of a layer.

How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?

How many layers in a sea level air molecule? What is each layer comprised of?

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2257 on: November 30, 2019, 03:06:35 AM »


No, not completely.
To remove everything would be to create the free space you people say exist which means a nonexistence of anything and logically we can forget about that....or I can, for obvious reasons.

I told you why there would be molecules left in the container or rocket or using the people in the bus analogy or the sponge ball analogy.
You just refused to understand it.

And i gave you a mechanism to remove all the people on the bus

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2258 on: November 30, 2019, 03:09:44 AM »
How does your gobbstopper theory explain suction cups?
There's no such thing as suction cups in the sense of the word, suck.
Those cups work because air is pushed out of them by compression to push away the external air, which means the air pushed out is now added to the external air and that overcomes the much weaker molecules of air left inside the cup.
Less push back which leaves the cup clamped to whatever it is clamped against.

The force of suction cup can be much much greater than the denP of the air pushed out, and even the denP displacment of the suction cup itself.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2259 on: November 30, 2019, 03:32:59 AM »
How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?
Applied energy to put it back into the compressed state it was originally in.

Quote from: Stash

How many layers in a sea level air molecule?
Not sure, I have no physical way to tell.


Quote from: Stash

What is each layer comprised of?
A variation of compressed elements.
What that is is anyone's guess. How long is a piece of string.
No point going down this route to be honest.
It's like me asking you what's in the space between your space. You'll say nothing and I'll say there has to be something, then you'll say " no there doesn't" and I'll say " of course there must be something."

How long is a piece of string?
Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.

No need to argue this particular point.
Quote from: Stash

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?
No.
Think of washing up bubbles and how they attach.
This is what would be happening.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops. Does it disappear or does it lose it's layer and get smaller and attach to other bubbles to fill gaps and even compress into other bubbles?

Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2260 on: November 30, 2019, 03:38:21 AM »


No, not completely.
To remove everything would be to create the free space you people say exist which means a nonexistence of anything and logically we can forget about that....or I can, for obvious reasons.

I told you why there would be molecules left in the container or rocket or using the people in the bus analogy or the sponge ball analogy.
You just refused to understand it.

And i gave you a mechanism to remove all the people on the bus
There is no mechanism to remove all molecules of air unless you flatten the container which then ceases to be a container.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2261 on: November 30, 2019, 03:42:01 AM »
How does your gobbstopper theory explain suction cups?
There's no such thing as suction cups in the sense of the word, suck.
Those cups work because air is pushed out of them by compression to push away the external air, which means the air pushed out is now added to the external air and that overcomes the much weaker molecules of air left inside the cup.
Less push back which leaves the cup clamped to whatever it is clamped against.

The force of suction cup can be much much greater than the denP of the air pushed out, and even the denP displacment of the suction cup itself.
Your so called "suction" cup has very little force once you push out many air molecules. All the force is now added back into the atmosphere which is then added back to the cup and it's this added extra that causes your cup to be pushed against whatever surface it's against...as long as the seal is capable of not being breached by the added eternal pressure.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2262 on: November 30, 2019, 04:20:40 AM »
How does your gobbstopper theory explain suction cups?
There's no such thing as suction cups in the sense of the word, suck.
Those cups work because air is pushed out of them by compression to push away the external air, which means the air pushed out is now added to the external air and that overcomes the much weaker molecules of air left inside the cup.
Less push back which leaves the cup clamped to whatever it is clamped against.

The force of suction cup can be much much greater than the denP of the air pushed out, and even the denP displacment of the suction cup itself.
Your so called "suction" cup has very little force once you push out many air molecules. All the force is now added back into the atmosphere which is then added back to the cup and it's this added extra that causes your cup to be pushed against whatever surface it's against...as long as the seal is capable of not being breached by the added eternal pressure.

That is complete nonsense.
Your denp theory is that the molecules of matter displace sponge air and compress the stack upwards.
By removing air below a suction cup the denP density of the suctoon cup itself didnt change.
The only change isbthe minute amount of air added to the sponge stack above.
That minute amount is what you claim is giving the cup the force.
Which is nonsense because the difference in amount is easily demonstrable.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2263 on: November 30, 2019, 04:22:32 AM »
Are you sauing this mission impossible guy is fake?
Cgi?


Are you saying that the amount of air pushed out by these suction cups is the same amount of air to equal the mans denP displacement (~175lbs)?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 04:25:37 AM by Themightykabool »

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2264 on: November 30, 2019, 09:26:54 AM »
That is complete nonsense.
Your denp theory is that the molecules of matter displace sponge air and compress the stack upwards.
No it's not. Pay more attention.

Quote from: Themightykabool
By removing air below a suction cup the denP density of the suctoon cup itself didnt change.
It's not about removing air below the cup. It's about pushing the air from the cup back into the atmosphere so it immediately adds to the pressure already on it whilst not allowing it to get back inside to equalise the molecules robbed from it.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The only change isbthe minute amount of air added to the sponge stack above.
There's nothing minute about it and it's added to the entire atmosphere.
I tried to explain it with a swimming pool but it just flies right past the likes of you.
Quote from: Themightykabool
That minute amount is what you claim is giving the cup the force.
The cup doesn't have the force, the atmosphere on the cup is the force.
The force is external to the cup when you force out some of the air within the cup.
Quote from: Themightykabool
Which is nonsense because the difference in amount is easily demonstrable.
Tell me about it and we'll go from there.
Mine is easily demonstrable but you refuse to see it. Maybe because you know it's correct.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2265 on: November 30, 2019, 09:28:38 AM »
Are you sauing this mission impossible guy is fake?
Cgi?


Are you saying that the amount of air pushed out by of these suction cups is the same amount of air to equal the mans denP displacement (~175lbs)?


Yes...and more.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2266 on: November 30, 2019, 01:54:55 PM »
You can't say I didn't warn you.
You haven't warned me about anything.
You have just repeatedly avoided simple questions, lied and insulted me and others.

I gave you a chance to just deal with the one issue and you just threw it back at me, still refusing to answer simple questions. Instead you just provided the same non-answers which were already refuted and then just repeated the same lie that you had already answered.

This shows that even those statements where you claimed that you would be happy to just deal with the 1 issue were a blatant lie. You are not happy to deal with anything that shows you are wrong. Instead you will use whatever dishonesty you can to get out of it.

Your continued avoidance of this very simple question shows you have no case.
Until you answer it you have no justification for your claim that rockets can't work in a vacuum.

Again:
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Can you even attempt to answer it?

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.


Until you actually tell me what the gas is pushing off in this situation to allow it to move out of the rocket and into the vacuum, and also address why this doesn't work for the rocket or also result in the rocket moving you have failed to answer the question.

To remove everything would be to create the free space you people say exist which means a nonexistence of anything and logically we can forget about that....or I can, for obvious reasons.
No, it means the non-existence of matter there, not anything.
Logically we can't just ignore that.
But yes, you can ignore it, for obvious reasons as it shows you are wrong, nothing to do with logic.

Because you release the pressure of a layer.
And why would that cause it to expand? You have reduced the size.
At best the layer inside which move out very slightly to produce a size smaller than the original.

And again, is this meant to be a single molecule made up of layers, or are these layers of molecules?
And again, where does this layer go? Where does it come from when it is compressed.

No point going down this route to be honest.
Yes there is as it shows you have no idea.
It shows you rely upon pure nonsense and wild speculation/ignorance.

Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.
I can heed it, I'm just not going to give you the satisfaction of kissing your ass as you spout mountains of BS.

The only reason this type of question goes nowhere is because you have no idea what you are talking about and are relying upon wild speculation to try and prop up the complete failure you call a model.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops.
Air is inside the bubble. When it pops, that air is free to intermingle with the air outside the bubble.
The thin film that made it up will go a few places. A small portion will be aerosilised, some may splatter outwards and some will fall back onto the other bubbles.
No layer BS required.

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.
With electron microscopes we can get atomic resolution. So try again.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2267 on: November 30, 2019, 02:36:37 PM »
You can't say I didn't warn you.
You haven't warned me about anything.
You have just repeatedly avoided simple questions, lied and insulted me and others.

I gave you a chance to just deal with the one issue and you just threw it back at me, still refusing to answer simple questions. Instead you just provided the same non-answers which were already refuted and then just repeated the same lie that you had already answered.

This shows that even those statements where you claimed that you would be happy to just deal with the 1 issue were a blatant lie. You are not happy to deal with anything that shows you are wrong. Instead you will use whatever dishonesty you can to get out of it.

Your continued avoidance of this very simple question shows you have no case.
Until you answer it you have no justification for your claim that rockets can't work in a vacuum.

Again:
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Can you even attempt to answer it?

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.


Until you actually tell me what the gas is pushing off in this situation to allow it to move out of the rocket and into the vacuum, and also address why this doesn't work for the rocket or also result in the rocket moving you have failed to answer the question.

To remove everything would be to create the free space you people say exist which means a nonexistence of anything and logically we can forget about that....or I can, for obvious reasons.
No, it means the non-existence of matter there, not anything.
Logically we can't just ignore that.
But yes, you can ignore it, for obvious reasons as it shows you are wrong, nothing to do with logic.

Because you release the pressure of a layer.
And why would that cause it to expand? You have reduced the size.
At best the layer inside which move out very slightly to produce a size smaller than the original.

And again, is this meant to be a single molecule made up of layers, or are these layers of molecules?
And again, where does this layer go? Where does it come from when it is compressed.

No point going down this route to be honest.
Yes there is as it shows you have no idea.
It shows you rely upon pure nonsense and wild speculation/ignorance.

Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.
I can heed it, I'm just not going to give you the satisfaction of kissing your ass as you spout mountains of BS.

The only reason this type of question goes nowhere is because you have no idea what you are talking about and are relying upon wild speculation to try and prop up the complete failure you call a model.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops.
Air is inside the bubble. When it pops, that air is free to intermingle with the air outside the bubble.
The thin film that made it up will go a few places. A small portion will be aerosilised, some may splatter outwards and some will fall back onto the other bubbles.
No layer BS required.

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.
With electron microscopes we can get atomic resolution. So try again.
Let me know when you have something to add.

?

Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2268 on: November 30, 2019, 02:47:46 PM »
Scepti quote:



Mine is easily demonstrable but you refuse to see it. Maybe because you know it's correct



however....


How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?
Applied energy to put it back into the compressed state it was originally in.

Quote from: Stash

How many layers in a sea level air molecule?




Not sure, I have no physical way to tell.


Quote from: Stash

What is each layer comprised of?
A variation of compressed elements.
What that is is anyone's guess.



How long is a piece of string.
No point going down this route to be honest.
It's like me asking you what's in the space between your space. You'll say nothing and I'll say there has to be something, then you'll say " no there doesn't" and I'll say " of course there must be something."

How long is a piece of string?
Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.

No need to argue this particular point.
Quote from: Stash

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?
No.
Think of washing up bubbles and how they attach.
This is what would be happening.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops. Does it disappear or does it lose it's layer and get smaller and attach to other bubbles to fill gaps and even compress into other bubbles?

Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 02:50:33 PM by Themightykabool »

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2269 on: November 30, 2019, 02:48:47 PM »
How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?

Applied energy to put it back into the compressed state it was originally in.

Define how "Applied Energy" works and how it grows new layers from where there were none before.

Quote from: Stash

How many layers in a sea level air molecule?
Not sure, I have no physical way to tell.

An electron microscope can.

Quote from: Stash

What is each layer comprised of?

A variation of compressed elements.
What that is is anyone's guess. How long is a piece of string.
No point going down this route to be honest.
It's like me asking you what's in the space between your space. You'll say nothing and I'll say there has to be something, then you'll say " no there doesn't" and I'll say " of course there must be something."

How long is a piece of string?

If you have no idea what the compressed elements are made of, how do you know there are layers and that they grow from nothing?

A piece of string is as long or short as it is measured.

Quote from: Stash

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?
No.
Think of washing up bubbles and how they attach.
This is what would be happening.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops. Does it disappear or does it lose it's layer and get smaller and attach to other bubbles to fill gaps and even compress into other bubbles?

Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

Sure:


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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2270 on: November 30, 2019, 04:17:10 PM »
Let me know when you have something to add.
Let me know when you can answer very simple questions which are key to this topic and show you are spouting pure nonsense, and when you can stop avoiding reality just because it doesn't fit your delusion.

Again:
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Can you even attempt to answer it?

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.


Until you actually tell me what the gas is pushing off in this situation to allow it to move out of the rocket and into the vacuum, and also address why this doesn't work for the rocket or also result in the rocket moving you have failed to answer the question.

Face it, you have absolutely no justification for your claim that rockets cannot work in a vacuum.
To try and back it up, you rely upon your model which is full of contradictions and need to repeatedly avoid such a simple question.

Why don't you cut the crap and admit you have absolutely no justification and the sole reason you reject rockets working in a vacuum is because they show you are wrong?

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2271 on: November 30, 2019, 10:26:21 PM »
Are you sauing this mission impossible guy is fake?
Cgi?


Are you saying that the amount of air pushed out by of these suction cups is the same amount of air to equal the mans denP displacement (~175lbs)?


Yes...and more.

The amount of air pushed out of a suction cup can equal the weight of this guy?
Really?
An easily verifiable thing is what youre saying is happening.
That means if i flatten a styrofoam cup it will magically have the strength of a 175lbs?

And dont give bs about maintaining suction seal because that is a real physics solution.
Your solution relies on denP.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2272 on: December 01, 2019, 12:50:39 AM »
Scepti quote:



Mine is easily demonstrable but you refuse to see it. Maybe because you know it's correct



however....


How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?
Applied energy to put it back into the compressed state it was originally in.

Quote from: Stash

How many layers in a sea level air molecule?




Not sure, I have no physical way to tell.


Quote from: Stash

What is each layer comprised of?
A variation of compressed elements.
What that is is anyone's guess.



How long is a piece of string.
No point going down this route to be honest.
It's like me asking you what's in the space between your space. You'll say nothing and I'll say there has to be something, then you'll say " no there doesn't" and I'll say " of course there must be something."

How long is a piece of string?
Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.

No need to argue this particular point.
Quote from: Stash

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?
No.
Think of washing up bubbles and how they attach.
This is what would be happening.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops. Does it disappear or does it lose it's layer and get smaller and attach to other bubbles to fill gaps and even compress into other bubbles?

Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.
You really need to stop this, it doesn't help you.
Don't argue this any further because you will get no reply...unless you feel the need to do this as if you're clued up and you think you're doing your internet friends a favour.


?

Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2273 on: December 01, 2019, 12:53:29 AM »
Run away for another day

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2274 on: December 01, 2019, 01:08:44 AM »
Quote from: scepti
Define how "Applied Energy" works and how it grows new layers from where there were none before.


Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

Sure:


Well there you go.
Now imagine that on a smaller scale and them imagine it on a dense scale with solid materials and how they're merged to become what they are.
Layers.

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2275 on: December 01, 2019, 01:18:50 AM »
Scepti quote:


Mine is easily demonstrable but you refuse to see it. Maybe because you know it's correct


however....

How does it grow layers back that it lost? What's the mechanism for this?
Applied energy to put it back into the compressed state it was originally in.

Quote from: Stash

How many layers in a sea level air molecule?


Not sure, I have no physical way to tell.


Quote from: Stash

What is each layer comprised of?
A variation of compressed elements.
What that is is anyone's guess.


How long is a piece of string.
No point going down this route to be honest.
It's like me asking you what's in the space between your space. You'll say nothing and I'll say there has to be something, then you'll say " no there doesn't" and I'll say " of course there must be something."

How long is a piece of string?
Basically just avoid this type of questioning as it just goes nowhere.
I have told you, so heed what Jackblack cannot heed.

No need to argue this particular point.
Quote from: Stash

As far as shape, would a molecule be more like a cube? If they were spherical, there would be gaps in between, right?
No.
Think of washing up bubbles and how they attach.
This is what would be happening.

Go and look in your sink full of bubbles and notice the massive difference in bubble size and then think what's inside that bubble and what happens when the big bubble pops. Does it disappear or does it lose it's layer and get smaller and attach to other bubbles to fill gaps and even compress into other bubbles?

Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

It might seem over simplified by what I'm saying but it's only because we cannot physically see what's happening , even with microscopes to get right down to the nitty gritty, but we can observe what happens with what we can see.
You really need to stop this, it doesn't help you.
Don't argue this any further because you will get no reply...unless you feel the need to do this as if you're clued up and you think you're doing your internet friends a favour.

It's really quite simple; fundamental to how you think rockets can't fly in a vacuum has to do with your idea as to how molecules exist and behave. And you seem pretty clear on what you think a molecule is and how one relates to another and what they do: Molecules, comprised of layers of something, due to something you call "Applied Energy" makes layers vanish or appear. In doing so, molecules squeeze themselves out the container opening and because they have fattened up by shedding layers they push off of the more svelte molecules of air below that have formed a stack of resistance.

 Things to explore:

- What is Applied Energy?
- How do molecules grow layers?
- How do they make layers disappear? Where do they go?
- We can see molecules - humanity has never seen what you describe - What gives?

But when pressed on the fundamentals of the fundamental nature of your ideas you shut down. Why is this?

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2276 on: December 01, 2019, 01:25:58 AM »
Quote from: scepti
Define how "Applied Energy" works and how it grows new layers from where there were none before.


Can you push a bubble inside another bubble?

Sure:


Well there you go.
Now imagine that on a smaller scale and them imagine it on a dense scale with solid materials and how they're merged to become what they are.
Layers.

- We're talking about non-solid materials
- Those are bubbles inside a bubble
- There's space between those bubbles
- How do bubbles appear?

So your gobstopper with layers analogy to a molecule is incorrect. It's more like bubbles inside of a bubble?

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2277 on: December 01, 2019, 01:26:20 AM »
here's one that could nip this.

Lackless and scepti insist atmoplane is required for the exhaust gas to push off of.
They believe the medball guy is using the ball to push the air to propell him in the opposite direction.

so.
they contend that inertia is not a thing?
Conservation of momentum is a fundamental law of physics which states that the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces acting on the system. It is embodied in Newton's first law (the law of inertia).


so if we had two toy cars with the same sized electric motor.
one weighs 100lbs, the other 10lbs.
it obviously takes the 100lbs car more time to get up to speed because it's weight.
is it because it's pushing against air?
or is it because it's heavier and the "conventional" physics is correct?

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2278 on: December 01, 2019, 01:36:47 AM »
You really need to stop this, it doesn't help you.
You are the one who needs help here.
You have been running away from very simple questions since the start, all because it shows your claims are pure nonsense.

If you don't want to argue, then run along.

Why don't you try and help yourself and answer the question:
What is the gas PUSHING off to allow it to move? What is it using as LEVERAGE? And why doesn't the equivalent work for the rocket to allow it to move.

Telling me it can't stay in the tube because there is a vacuum is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Telling me it is expanding is not answering the question as that does not identify what the gas is using as leverage to move.
Saying what happens in the atmosphere is not answering the question as that is talking about a completely different issue.
Providing a one or two word response is not answering the question as that does not explain why the equivalent doesn't work for the rocket.

Now imagine that on a smaller scale and them imagine it on a dense scale with solid materials and how they're merged to become what they are.
Layers.
That is all you will be doing, imagining, because there is no way to make it work.
Do you have any idea how such bubbles work?
There is a small amount of fluid trapped between layers of surfactant, typically with excess surfactant and potentially more layers.
This makes it very flexible and gives it the ability to flow.
This doesn't work for solids. If you don't believe me, go try it with a window.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2279 on: December 01, 2019, 01:39:42 AM »
Are you sauing this mission impossible guy is fake?
Cgi?


Are you saying that the amount of air pushed out by of these suction cups is the same amount of air to equal the mans denP displacement (~175lbs)?


Yes...and more.

The amount of air pushed out of a suction cup can equal the weight of this guy?
Really?
It's what is pushed back onto the cups by the strength of what is pushed out of those cups to add to the pressure already on them.
You only need to understand what's happening to realise I'm right.
Try looking into how the magdeburg hemispheres work and you'll easily understand why the cup works.



Quote from: Themightykabool
An easily verifiable thing is what youre saying is happening.
That means if i flatten a styrofoam cup it will magically have the strength of a 175lbs?
No.
The styrofoam cup would break and has no real sealing properties, not to mention it's mostly made up of air.
It seems you don't understand any of it.
I'm actually hoping you're just playing silly games.

Quote from: Themightykabool
And dont give bs about maintaining suction seal because that is a real physics solution.
Your solution relies on denP.
I'm not on about crating a suction seal. I've told you many time there is no suction.
It's a seal created by atmospheric push onto the cup after the cup has had applied energy to it to push out the air molecules to make them too few to push back, meaning they get clamped to the surface of whatever can hold the atmosphere from equalising the cup interior with the exterior so that it creates the same push inside as outside onto the actual material itself.