HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2010 on: November 19, 2019, 12:23:06 PM »
At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

It means the same as existence of the exhaust behind the rocket engine in Moon orbit.
If rocket can push off air, it can also push off that exhaust.
Google "Debate impossible, pigeon ::), chess ::)"

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2011 on: November 19, 2019, 12:30:05 PM »
Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?
Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool
A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.
There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

Quote from: Themightykabool
You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.
I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate
and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.


Quote from: Themightykabool
look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english
Maybe you can look it up.




aaah
"Flow is the rate"
Flow of what?
What is flowing?
In this case it would be the flow of the needle or the flow of the exiting gas from the valve.
Basically a movement in one direction towards one opening.

Pick one.
Because the two, although related, are mutually different things.

Bah whatever.
The needle is moving is the rate.
The positipn of the needl is the value.
Ok good.
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Gas pushes out in all directions.
Thanks for admitting.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2012 on: November 19, 2019, 12:39:56 PM »
And 2nd to that.
If the gas is flowing.
The sponge people off a bus are:
1.Sponges - expanding molecules
2.People - molecules of set size
3.Sponge people - moeluces that are able to expand and are able to move.


If molecules can move.
They can be removed.
And space can exist.
And vaccuums can exist which part of your premise that - "they cant exist" - is incorrect.

2nd premise, relies on "gas on gas fight" or "push on push" is the causw of motion.
If gas is pushing in all directions (whcih is what stash jackB and myself have been getting at), the gas pushing on the inside of the container (rember in all directions) pushss the rocket in one direction while flying out the back side and there is no reliance on outside atmo-air.
Mass flow x velocity is a thing.

You lose on both.
Or you can deny what you mean by flow.
Then you are contradicting yourself and thus invalidate your argument and we can bid you good day, thanks for coming out, and we appreciate the mental exercise in critical thinking.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 12:42:12 PM by Themightykabool »

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2013 on: November 19, 2019, 12:49:31 PM »
Lets get this clear.
Without a positive pressure the gauge shows 0.
Incorrect.
Repeatedly asserting the same nonsense will not help you.
If you want to assert that the gauge can show a positive value without having a force applied to it you need to explain how.
How does the gauge not very rapidly return to 0, considering there is a significant force pushing in that direction.
The only way to stop it is to apply a force.
Even if you want to call that a "resistance" that still demands a force.

Yes it applies a force of resistance to the gauge piston and spring if the valve is open
So you admit that it applies a force.
It doesn't matter if you want to pretend that isn't a force or isn't a pressure towards the gauge, the simple fact is that that is what it must be.
It is a force acting towards the gauge.
That is why the gauge still shows a pressure reading.

And then the same situation happens with a rocket.
The gas provides a "force of resistance" i.e. a very real force pushing into the rocket.
The big difference is the rocket no longer has a spring to combat that force and thus it moves.

Quote from: JackBlack

And again, you avoid the very simple questions which show your model to be nothing more than childish fantasy:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
Gas.
Which again means the rocket can push off the gas and the rocket works in a vacuum.

Repeating the same non answers wont help you.
I made that quite clear.
In order for this to be an answer you need to explain clearly how this allows the gas to move but not the rocket.
Your main objection against a rocket working in a vacuum is that there is nothing for it to push off.
But that same argument works against the gas.
By saying the gas can push off the gas, that allows the rocket to push off the gas as well, otherwise you have a contradiction.

It doesn't magically know, it simply follows the natural decompression state
No, it's "natural" state is to push outwards in all directions.
You are having it defy this natural state by instead only pushing and moving towards one direction.

Quote from: JackBlack

How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?
I'm not quite sure what you mean on this. Maybe clarify it a bit more.
I have explained it repeatedly. It is quite clear you understand what is meant.
You claim the gas is only pushing towards the opening (to avoid it pushing in the opposite direction and allowing rockets to work in a vacuum).
But you also admit that motion requires push-on-push, i.e. in order for an object to move to the right, it must push on something to the left such that it pushes back to the right and move the object to the right.
This means that in order for the gas to move towards the opening it needs to push back away from the opening so that what is further away pushes back.

But now you have admitted the gas does push backwards.

The only difference is the rocket provides it's own tower
No, the difference is that the hovercraft relies upon the ground effect, where the escape speed of the air below it depends upon the gap. If the gap gets too large then more air escapes and the pressure drops.
A rocket doesn't have this issue.

What evidence does mainstream have for showing it to work differently?
Mountains of evidence, which you have completely ignored. (Including the reality of rockets working in a vacuum)
But again, you dodge the question.
You are trying to use your nonsense to refute the reality of rockets working in a vacuum.
If all you have is wild speculation, then you have nothing.
So again, what evidence do you have for your model?

It's resisting the push just like all the gas molecules are doing all the way through.
Yes, by pushing outwards in all directions, and as a reactionary force due to its own mass.
That means it is pushing on the gauge, and that is key.

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.
Ignoring all the times you have been proven wrong doesn't mean you haven't been proven wrong. It just means you are rejecting reality.
We have shown that they CANNOT work as your pile of nonsense (it is nothing like a theory) claims.

I win the rocket in space debate for a number of reasons and reasons that logical thinking people should clearly see.
No, you have lost it repeatedly.
Especially due to your complete inability to show anything wrong with the known model of how gases work, and your complete inability to answer extremely simple questions which put you in an impossible position.

Baselessly asserting that your model is correct with absolutely nothing to justify it does not make you win a debate.
Baselessly asserting that something must be wrong when you have no rational argument and instead just appeal to your own incredulity does not make you win a debate.
Both of those tactics are typically used by those who can't win to try and pretend they have.

1. Nothing moves without external resistance to applied energy.
i.e. the gas must remain inside the rocket, even when it is exposed to a vacuum.
If there is enough external resistance to allow the gas to move, then you have external resistance which can allow the rocket to move.

So again, which is it? Do rockets work in a vacuum, or does the gas magically stay trapped?

2. 3000 tonne rockets are certainly not going to stand upright holding the fuel we are told and managing to lift off and do so at thousands and thousands of mph, even working against atmosphere, let alone supposedly kicking themselves up their own arses.
Why not?
Again, do you have any rational argument against it?
So far all you do is just dismiss it and try and attack it with your unsubstantiated nonsense.

3. Space does not exist in how we're told, as a nothingness or with silly scattered particles or whatever.
Another baseless assertion.

So therefor you do lose and those on the side arguing against you, showing clearly that rockets do work in a vacuum and that your nonsense is wrong are the victors.

We aren't arguing this.
So if we aren't arguing that, why bring it up?
The issue is while it is still dropping. The gauge is still reading a positive value.

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?
Only if counted upwards and not backwards.
Seriously?
You want to assert such pure nonsense?
1, 2 and 3 are positive numbers REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE!

Again, you are mixing up value and rate.
1, 2, and 3 are always positive values.
If the value is increasing, e.g. 1, 2, 3, then the rate is positive.
If it is constant then the rate is 0.
If it is decreasing, then the rate is negative.
A negative rate does not mean a negative value.

Quote from: Themightykabool
You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.
I perfectly understand rate and value.
So you are lying to us and you perfectly understand that what you are saying is wrong.


Bad analogy.
HOW?
Just what is wrong with it?
When you present a horrible analogy people typically explain what is wrong with it.
But this analogy which seems to be fine to deal with your claim, you just dismiss.

This makes me think you recognise it is a quite good analogy which shows you are wrong.

In this case it would be the flow of the needle
You could say that. The motion of the needle is the flow or rate. Whatever pressure it is indicating is the value.

So if it shows 100 bar, it is a positive value, regardless of the rate (i.e. how the needle is moving).

Of course it's under pressure, why wouldn't it be?
And that means it has pressure pushing outwards in all directions.
That is what under pressure means.
So that means even with an opening, the gas is still pushing out in all directions.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2014 on: November 19, 2019, 01:28:41 PM »
At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

It means the same as existence of the exhaust behind the rocket engine in Moon orbit.
If rocket can push off air, it can also push off that exhaust.
No it can't.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2015 on: November 19, 2019, 01:33:52 PM »
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Only if the pressure is being compressed more or compressed in a stable manner.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Gas pushes out in all directions.

Only when the gas is compressed or in a stable manner.

Once the valve is opened it ceases to push in all directions.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2016 on: November 19, 2019, 01:40:25 PM »
You could say that. The motion of the needle is the flow or rate. Whatever pressure it is indicating is the value.

So if it shows 100 bar, it is a positive value, regardless of the rate (i.e. how the needle is moving).
Nope.



Quote from: JackBlack

Of course it's under pressure, why wouldn't it be?
And that means it has pressure pushing outwards in all directions.
That is what under pressure means.
So that means even with an opening, the gas is still pushing out in all directions.
Nope. Not unless you allow it to by breaching all directions of the container.

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Crutchwater

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2017 on: November 19, 2019, 03:08:45 PM »
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Only if the pressure is being compressed more or compressed in a stable manner.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Gas pushes out in all directions.

Only when the gas is compressed or in a stable manner.

Once the valve is opened it ceases to push in all directions.

Then air would only escape from one hole in a tire with two holes!


Until pressure is zero, air pushes in all directions.
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2018 on: November 19, 2019, 03:20:34 PM »
Please explain why air can push on outside air, but is incapable of pushing against the walls of the container?
(And think, like your arms, you could push all day against a brick wall.
It doesnt mean it will go anywhere but it also doesnt mean you arent pushing).

Why does pressure cease to exist when the gauge needle is in.motion?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2019 on: November 19, 2019, 03:23:57 PM »
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Only if the pressure is being compressed more or compressed in a stable manner.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Gas pushes out in all directions.

Only when the gas is compressed or in a stable manner.

Once the valve is opened it [gas] ceases to push in all directions.

Ah ok.
Lets take this as a rule.
If the stack om stack of sponges expands, rising like a loaf of bread, and the rocket sits on this stack, is the rocket not being lifted by said stack?

If yes, then guess what?

If no, then the rocket dossnt move because of the air and you need to come up with a new reason the rocket moves (within the atmoplane).
Lets keep this to the water rocket.
Youve yet to clearly describe what the water does (and by clearly is because you nonsensly strung together a bunch of words that dont describe shtall).
And now youve negated the requirement for air.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 03:37:47 PM by Themightykabool »

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2020 on: November 19, 2019, 04:46:20 PM »
If the gas is resisting the piston in any way it is pushing, applying pressure and registering pressure in the gauge. You literally cannot win the gauge argument.
It's resisting the push just like all the gas molecules are doing all the way through.
The issue is, it's not creating a positive push on the gauge and this is the key.....unless the pressure is sealed or pushed against the gauge by force.
I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: Stash

There is too much evidence against it. The gauge builders build gauges used everywhere being able to show pressure and pressure must be applied to the gauge whether it be moving up of down.
I could build a gauge and so could you. It doesn't mean you have to know the exact molecular workings. All you have to know is whether it can move a needle when force is applied. Hold the needle when applied force is sealed or show a negative movement when that force is channelled opposite to that gauge.

Quote from: Stash
  Sorry, your claim that gauges don't work as designed when they do everywhere is unaccepted and unacceptable.

Here, look at how different gauges work:



You just can't claim pressure gauges work differently than the people who design and make them, especially by just saying so with no evidence.

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

But that's the thing, they don't work how you say they work. Humans design and manufacture such devices to work specifically by showing the level of pressure whether it's going up or going down or standing still. That is the point of a pressure gauge and why people have them.

For instance, from Marshall, a company that manufactures gauges:

"How Does a Mechanical Gauge Work?

Mechanical gauges utilize an internal bourdon tube. One end of the bourdon tube is connected to a gear and shaft assembly that moves a pointer. When the pressure inside the bourdon tube increases, the bourdon tube uncoils slightly. The amount of uncoiling that occurs is proportional to the pressure inside the bourdon tube. As the tube uncoils, its motion activates the gear and shaft system that turns the pointer on the gauge. While all that you see when you look at the gauge is the pointer moving, you should understand that there is a small, bent tube (the bourdon tube) that's coiling and uncoiling with each change in the pressure inside that tube.
"
http://www.marshallinstruments.com/faqs/detail.cfm?id=22

You see, the makers of such devices do so to register pressure going up and down. Which means pressure on the pressure gauge either way because that's how it is designed to work. And here you are claiming that no, there's no pressure as it's going down yet there is still a pressure reading? The way these gauges are designed, if there is no pressure the gauge reads 0. That's the fact jack. Unless you have something other than you just saying so, like evidence, your notion is directly contradicted by the makers of the devices.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2021 on: November 19, 2019, 08:45:36 PM »
No it can't.
You say that, but provide no justification for why.
You only ever seem to have baseless assertions with no substance.

You could say that. The motion of the needle is the flow or rate. Whatever pressure it is indicating is the value.
So if it shows 100 bar, it is a positive value, regardless of the rate (i.e. how the needle is moving).
Nope.
Again, that is going to the path of pure insanity of declaring positive numbers negative or intentionally mixing up rate and value.
100 bar is a positive value.
As such, it if a gauge reads 100 bar, it is reading a positive value.
100 can never be negative.
This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Quote from: JackBlack

Of course it's under pressure, why wouldn't it be?
And that means it has pressure pushing outwards in all directions.
That is what under pressure means.
So that means even with an opening, the gas is still pushing out in all directions.
Nope. Not unless you allow it to by breaching all directions of the container.
That is only required for it to move outwards in all directions. To push outwards in all directions it doesn't need any breaches and doesn't care where breaches are.

And of course, you still avoid those simple questions which show your claims to be pure fantasy.
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?
How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim rather than the way mainstream science has shown it does?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2022 on: November 19, 2019, 10:16:32 PM »
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Only if the pressure is being compressed more or compressed in a stable manner.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Gas pushes out in all directions.

Only when the gas is compressed or in a stable manner.

Once the valve is opened it ceases to push in all directions.

Then air would only escape from one hole in a tire with two holes!


Until pressure is zero, air pushes in all directions.
No it wouldn't (red bold).
The air will decompress towards any breach, however many holes.
All that means is, it decompresses quicker with each breach, until equalised with external pressure.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2023 on: November 19, 2019, 10:26:41 PM »
No it wouldn't (red bold).
The problem is that according to your nonsense, it should.
Once there is a single hole, you have your air just start moving towards that.
Once that happens the only reason for it to stop is if the hole is plugged.
It only makes sense to turn around if it is trying to push outwards in all directions.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2024 on: November 19, 2019, 10:31:08 PM »
Please explain why air can push on outside air, but is incapable of pushing against the walls of the container?
Because in an open valve the air molecules are expanding out of that valve into lesser pressure against that direct gas push on push out of the valve.
This happens because all the molecules are now decompressing towards that valve at different rates but nevertheless still decompressing which creates the super resistive overall push by that staggered decompression, against the external air resistance.
While this is happening you can look at it like the air is funnelling towards the exit or sliding down the walls with less and less force against those walls, which is all negative unless the valve is closed on that pressure or pressure forced back in.

Quote from: Themightykabool
(And think, like your arms, you could push all day against a brick wall.
It doesnt mean it will go anywhere but it also doesnt mean you arent pushing).
If you want to use the wall idea then you need to know how it's used.
It's like you pushing against the wall which does not move.
This would be like a closed container.
You now have the wall moving towards you and pushing you back.
This would be pressure added to you.

Or.....You are pushing against the wall as it starts to move away from your push.
All that will happen is your arms decompress to follow the wall and soon enough the wall will end up at the end of your outstretched arms where you can no longer push...and it holds there, just like gas follows gas out of a valve.



Quote from: Themightykabool
Why does pressure cease to exist when the gauge needle is in.motion?
It doesn't cease to exist. It ceases to be a positive pressure on the piston and spring that operates that needle.
Don't get them mixed up or you'll end up back at square on.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2025 on: November 19, 2019, 10:42:34 PM »
Lets take this as a rule.
If the stack on stack of sponges expands, rising like a loaf of bread, and the rocket sits on this stack, is the rocket not being lifted by said stack?

If yes, then guess what?

The rocket is being lifted by the thrust of its own gases against the stack below which creates a direct super compression in that stack.
That super compression has to decompress again but as it does it's hit by the super expansion of rocket gases, time and time and time again for as long as those gases expand into it and compress.

However, whilst this is being done a barrier has been created and a consistent decompression is already taking place at every point during this.

The rocket sits atop it all for as long as it can keep doing what it's doing.

It's gas on gas expansion to compression fight that allows the rocket to be moved, not the actual rocket itself.
Oh...and by the way....this is the basics for everything but we don;t need to go into that.



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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2026 on: November 19, 2019, 10:47:07 PM »

But that's the thing, they don't work how you say they work. Humans design and manufacture such devices to work specifically by showing the level of pressure whether it's going up or going down or standing still. That is the point of a pressure gauge and why people have them.

For instance, from Marshall, a company that manufactures gauges:

"How Does a Mechanical Gauge Work?

Mechanical gauges utilize an internal bourdon tube. One end of the bourdon tube is connected to a gear and shaft assembly that moves a pointer. When the pressure inside the bourdon tube increases, the bourdon tube uncoils slightly. The amount of uncoiling that occurs is proportional to the pressure inside the bourdon tube. As the tube uncoils, its motion activates the gear and shaft system that turns the pointer on the gauge. While all that you see when you look at the gauge is the pointer moving, you should understand that there is a small, bent tube (the bourdon tube) that's coiling and uncoiling with each change in the pressure inside that tube.
"
http://www.marshallinstruments.com/faqs/detail.cfm?id=22

You see, the makers of such devices do so to register pressure going up and down. Which means pressure on the pressure gauge either way because that's how it is designed to work. And here you are claiming that no, there's no pressure as it's going down yet there is still a pressure reading? The way these gauges are designed, if there is no pressure the gauge reads 0. That's the fact jack. Unless you have something other than you just saying so, like evidence, your notion is directly contradicted by the makers of the devices.
No I'm not claiming there's no pressure. I'm claiming there's no positive pressure on a gauge that is part of an open system.
This is what you need to understand and don't mix it all up.

Too many people are placing obstacles in their own way them calling foul on me.
Stick to one specific thing and deal with that before going into others. It's be much less frustrating.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2027 on: November 19, 2019, 11:03:10 PM »
Again, that is going to the path of pure insanity of declaring positive numbers negative or intentionally mixing up rate and value.
No it's not going into any path of insanity.
It's going into a path of people like yourself refusing to understand my point.

I'm not mixing up rate or value. In fact I'm explaining why one and the other work in this situation.
You see, I'm not declaring set positive numbers as negative and you need to understand the word, set.

Quote from: JackBlack
100 bar is a positive value.
Absolutely as long as it is 100 bar as a set number.


Quote from: JackBlack
As such, it if a gauge reads 100 bar, it is reading a positive value.
Absolutely. As long as the gauge reads 100 bar consistently.


Quote from: JackBlack
100 can never be negative.
This is not a difficult concept to understand.
Correct, 100 cannot be negative as long as it stays as 100 and obviously assuming a gauge is not faulty...but we won't bother with that.

You see1, 2, 3, 4, 50, 100, 1000...etrc...cannot be negative as long as they read a definitive set number or advance in numbers.

The conundrum (in terms of us arguing) starts when they don't do either.
This is the crux of the argument.

You see, 100 on a gauge will show 100 when positive pressure allows that gauge to set that pointer at 100.
If the pressure is added then immediately that 100 ceases to become 100. It may advance to say 100.00000001 or whatever. Or to make it simpler, 101.

This is an increasing pressure so everything is still positive and every number from 1 to 101 is still positive because every number from 1 to 101 is holding all that pressure.

However, if you open a valve to release that pressure you negate the positive pressure on the gauge. It no longer has any definitive set reading to the positive until you cease to allow the pressure towards the exit, to stop.
And only then can you read a gauge and see a positive pressure once again, whether it's down to 55,23,10 or 1 or 0.1.

Failure to shut down a valve renders the gauge as a negative, pressure wise. No gas is pushing positively into that gauge.




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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2028 on: November 19, 2019, 11:06:45 PM »
No it wouldn't (red bold).
The problem is that according to your nonsense, it should.
Once there is a single hole, you have your air just start moving towards that.
Once that happens the only reason for it to stop is if the hole is plugged.
It only makes sense to turn around if it is trying to push outwards in all directions.
No.

If you riddle the container with holes you divert the expansion directly near those holes as an instant expansion against the resistance of what is external to it.
The only difference in this case would be a much quicker gas release due to the many exits.

Quite simple if thought about.


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Stash

  • 3486
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2029 on: November 19, 2019, 11:17:36 PM »

But that's the thing, they don't work how you say they work. Humans design and manufacture such devices to work specifically by showing the level of pressure whether it's going up or going down or standing still. That is the point of a pressure gauge and why people have them.

For instance, from Marshall, a company that manufactures gauges:

"How Does a Mechanical Gauge Work?

Mechanical gauges utilize an internal bourdon tube. One end of the bourdon tube is connected to a gear and shaft assembly that moves a pointer. When the pressure inside the bourdon tube increases, the bourdon tube uncoils slightly. The amount of uncoiling that occurs is proportional to the pressure inside the bourdon tube. As the tube uncoils, its motion activates the gear and shaft system that turns the pointer on the gauge. While all that you see when you look at the gauge is the pointer moving, you should understand that there is a small, bent tube (the bourdon tube) that's coiling and uncoiling with each change in the pressure inside that tube.
"
http://www.marshallinstruments.com/faqs/detail.cfm?id=22

You see, the makers of such devices do so to register pressure going up and down. Which means pressure on the pressure gauge either way because that's how it is designed to work. And here you are claiming that no, there's no pressure as it's going down yet there is still a pressure reading? The way these gauges are designed, if there is no pressure the gauge reads 0. That's the fact jack. Unless you have something other than you just saying so, like evidence, your notion is directly contradicted by the makers of the devices.

No I'm not claiming there's no pressure. I'm claiming there's no positive pressure on a gauge that is part of an open system.
This is what you need to understand and don't mix it all up.

Too many people are placing obstacles in their own way them calling foul on me.
Stick to one specific thing and deal with that before going into others. It's be much less frustrating.

I've been sticking to one specific thing for pages; the pressure gauge and how it works.
You are claiming there is no "positive" pressure. There's no such thing. The folks that manufacture pressure gauges do so with the intent that pressure is pushing on their gauge to register a reading. Whether the gauge is moving up or down. That is critical to how the gauges work, how they are read by the observer for millions of systems around the world. Critical.
And you come along and say, without evidence, that those millions of gauges are not registering a pressure on the gauge but some made up "negative" pressure. That's not how the device is designed nor used.

Bottomline, the device, as designed, if it has a reading, it has pressure on it. There's no such thing as positive and negative pressure when the reading is above 0. That is a simple fact.

So unless you have evidence to the contrary and not just, "well that doesn't fit my theory," I'm afraid the standard of simple pressure gauges blows up your theory. As all evidence points to you being wrong.

?

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 22962
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2030 on: November 19, 2019, 11:32:57 PM »
I've been sticking to one specific thing for pages; the pressure gauge and how it works.
You are claiming there is no "positive" pressure. There's no such thing. The folks that manufacture pressure gauges do so with the intent that pressure is pushing on their gauge to register a reading.

 Whether the gauge is moving up or down. That is critical to how the gauges work, how they are read by the observer for millions of systems around the world. Critical.
And you come along and say, without evidence, that those millions of gauges are not registering a pressure on the gauge but some made up "negative" pressure. That's not how the device is designed nor used.
Well let's clarify positive and negative pressure from my side in terms of the gauge.

Let's assume a gauge with a piston on a spring just for the sake of argument.
You know you have to apply/positively push something (gas in this in stance) against that piston in order for it to move the spring to allow the pointer to move forward or to read a positive measurement on that gauge.


I'm assuming you'll accept this.

Ok, that's all positive pressure in a sealed container or a container with pressure added.

Open a valve and all that positive pressure is now pushing against the atmospheric resistance due to the gas on gas expansion of molecules inside the container all trying to expand but having to wait their turn to fully do it to equalise outside atmosphere but are all channelled towards the exit.

Behind them is the gauge and this gauge is no longer showing positive pressure on the needle, the piston or the spring. It's all negative because now it's simply a resistance to the spring compression.
Quote from: Stash
Bottomline, the device, as designed, if it has a reading, it has pressure on it. There's no such thing as positive and negative pressure when the reading is above 0. That is a simple fact.


Quote from: Stash
So unless you have evidence to the contrary and not just, "well that doesn't fit my theory," I'm afraid the standard of simple pressure gauges blows up your theory. As all evidence points to you being wrong.

*

Stash

  • 3486
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2031 on: November 19, 2019, 11:54:33 PM »
I've been sticking to one specific thing for pages; the pressure gauge and how it works.
You are claiming there is no "positive" pressure. There's no such thing. The folks that manufacture pressure gauges do so with the intent that pressure is pushing on their gauge to register a reading.

 Whether the gauge is moving up or down. That is critical to how the gauges work, how they are read by the observer for millions of systems around the world. Critical.
And you come along and say, without evidence, that those millions of gauges are not registering a pressure on the gauge but some made up "negative" pressure. That's not how the device is designed nor used.
Well let's clarify positive and negative pressure from my side in terms of the gauge.

Let's assume a gauge with a piston on a spring just for the sake of argument.
You know you have to apply/positively push something (gas in this in stance) against that piston in order for it to move the spring to allow the pointer to move forward or to read a positive measurement on that gauge.

I'm assuming you'll accept this.

Ok, that's all positive pressure in a sealed container or a container with pressure added.

Open a valve and all that positive pressure is now pushing against the atmospheric resistance due to the gas on gas expansion of molecules inside the container all trying to expand but having to wait their turn to fully do it to equalise outside atmosphere but are all channelled towards the exit.

Behind them is the gauge and this gauge is no longer showing positive pressure on the needle, the piston or the spring. It's all negative because now it's simply a resistance to the spring compression.

That's all fine and cool, but that's not how the manufacturers of pressure gauges build their gauges to work nor is it how they are read by millions of systems/humans around the world; When the gauge is going down, it is still reading pressure which is still pressing equally on all sides of the container, including the gauge. Otherwise, as designed, the gauge would read 0. Simple.

That's what the gauges of the world do and are designed to do and that's what the people of the world who critically rely on them expect.

So unless you can show any evidence to the contrary other than you just saying, "It doesn't fit my theory", I'm afraid you lose. Because the evidence against your theory is overwhelming and you have yet to show any, not even a smidge.


Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2032 on: November 20, 2019, 12:10:51 AM »
Please explain why air can push on outside air, but is incapable of pushing against the walls of the container?
Because in an open valve the air molecules are expanding out of that valve into lesser pressure against that direct gas push on push out of the valve.
This happens because all the molecules are now decompressing towards that valve at different rates but nevertheless still decompressing which creates the super resistive overall push by that staggered decompression, against the external air resistance.
While this is happening you can look at it like the air is funnelling towards the exit or sliding down the walls with less and less force against those walls, which is all negative unless the valve is closed on that pressure or pressure forced back in.

Quote from: Themightykabool
(And think, like your arms, you could push all day against a brick wall.
It doesnt mean it will go anywhere but it also doesnt mean you arent pushing).
If you want to use the wall idea then you need to know how it's used.
It's like you pushing against the wall which does not move.
This would be like a closed container.
You now have the wall moving towards you and pushing you back.
This would be pressure added to you.

Or.....You are pushing against the wall as it starts to move away from your push.
All that will happen is your arms decompress to follow the wall and soon enough the wall will end up at the end of your outstretched arms where you can no longer push...and it holds there, just like gas follows gas out of a valve.



Quote from: Themightykabool
Why does pressure cease to exist when the gauge needle is in.motion?
It doesn't cease to exist. It ceases to be a positive pressure on the piston and spring that operates that needle.
Don't get them mixed up or you'll end up back at square on.

You misunderstood in comment 2.
In a solid container, where the wall doesnt move, you pushing on it also doesnt move it.
The wall is solid enough to resist.
But youre still pushing.
If the wall were to suddenly crumble, you would bust outwards.
If you werent pushing, and the wall were to suddenly crumble, youd be standing there not moving.

Yes no?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2033 on: November 20, 2019, 12:11:52 AM »
with less and less force against those walls
So again you admit it is still applying a force to the wall?

which is all negative
That would mean it would be sucking the wall in, meaning the gauge should reach 0 faster than just removing the pressure and the balloon should shrink faster.

You now have the wall moving towards you and pushing you back.
This would be pressure added to you.
No, the wall isn't moving.

Or.....You are pushing against the wall as it starts to move away from your push.
Again, you are still pushing.

which creates a direct super compression in that stack.
How?
You are claiming something never observed, gases magically creating a region of compressed gas, more compressed than the initial gas.

Oh...and by the way....this is the basics for everything but we don;t need to go into that.
No, it is the basis for nothing, as it results in so many contradictions and can't actually explain things.


No I'm not claiming there's no pressure. I'm claiming there's no positive pressure on a gauge that is part of an open system.
This is what you need to understand and don't mix it all up.
Perhaps you should stop using made up terms and instead stick to the terms everyone has already agreed upon.
If there is pressure, it is positive, and thus it should be positive pressure.
What you seem to mean by "no positive pressure" is a reducing positive pressure.

Stick to one specific thing and deal with that before going into others. It's be much less frustrating.
It will also be completely uninformative.
One of the big issues with all your nonsense is the massive amounts of contradictions.
Bringing up 2 or more things and showing how your explanations contradict each other shows that.

If you can only handle making up an explanation for a single thing you have no model.

No it's not going into any path of insanity.
No, it is pure insanity.
You are claiming a positive number is not positive.
You are doing this because this value is decreasing.
A rate being negative does not make the value negative.

I'm not mixing up rate or value.
If that was the case you would admit 100 is positive, regardless of how it is changing.
You are literally appealing to the rate to pretend it has an effect on if a value is positive.

The only question is if you truly don't understand or if you are intentionally being dishonest.

The conundrum (in terms of us arguing) starts when they don't do either.
There is no actual conundrum. It is just you insanely rejecting reality.
It doesn't matter what the numbers are doing as long as the remain above 0 they remain positive.

There is no way for a positive number to magically become negative just because you got to it by going down.

There are plenty of examples to show that.
If you weigh 100 kg, and lose 10 kg, you now weigh 90 kg. Does that mean your weight is negative? NO! It is still positive.
If you were on the 10th floor of a building and go down 1, are you now underground/on a negative floor? NO! You are on floor 9, a positive floor.
If you have $100 and give someone $10, are you now magically in debt? NO! you still have $90, a positive amount.

The rate has no effect on if a value is positive or negative.

And yet again, you ignore very simple questions which show your model to be pure fantasy.
Your repeated avoidance of these simple questions shows your model is completely incapable of explaining anything (at least not without contradicting itself). Again:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?
How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim rather than the way mainstream science has shown it does?

If you riddle the container with holes you divert the expansion directly near those holes as an instant expansion against the resistance of what is external to it.
Again, this only makes sense if the gas continues to try and expand outwards in all directions, i.e. it pushes outwards in all directions.
If the nonsense you spout is true, and the gas magically stops pushing outwards in all directions and instead just heads in 1 direction towards the opening, there is no more reason for it to expand out new holes.

Quite simple if thought about.
Yes, it is quite simple if you actually think about it. But it seems you don't want to.
This, along with so many other things, shows that gas pushes outwards in ALL DIRECTIONS, ALL THE TIME!

Again, do you have a single thing which indicates otherwise, other than your baseless claims and wild speculation?

You know you have to apply/positively push something (gas in this in stance) against that piston in order for it to move the spring to allow the pointer to move forward or to read a positive measurement on that gauge.
I'm assuming you'll accept this.
The problem is that you don't accept this.
You straight up reject it, contradicting yourself in the process.

Yes the gas needs to push on the piston for the spring to have a positive reading.
Yet you then go and claim it doesn't need that or just pretend that a positive reading is somehow negative.

I take a photo of a pressure gauge.
It shows the gauge with a needle at 100 bar.
What is the pressure inside the container?
Is it positive?
Does the gauge read a positive measurement?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2034 on: November 20, 2019, 12:20:31 AM »
So if thevposition of the needle is positive then there is possitive presure on the needle.
Only if the pressure is being compressed more or compressed in a stable manner.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Gas pushes out in all directions.

Only when the gas is compressed or in a stable manner.

Once the valve is opened it ceases to push in all directions.

Then air would only escape from one hole in a tire with two holes!


Until pressure is zero, air pushes in all directions.
No it wouldn't (red bold).
The air will decompress towards any breach, however many holes.
All that means is, it decompresses quicker with each breach, until equalised with external pressure.

In the case of the airfilled crazy arm thing.
The fan provides a continuous supply if new air and maintains pressurization.
This pressure is seen by the fact the flexible tube is expanded.
When tge fan momentarily turns off, rhe tube rapidly loses the pressure as it equalizes with the outside air.
This proves you wrong and proves what stash is saying - gasses exerrt pressure in all directions, always.


Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2035 on: November 20, 2019, 12:25:57 AM »
Lets take this as a rule.
If the stack on stack of sponges expands, rising like a loaf of bread, and the rocket sits on this stack, is the rocket not being lifted by said stack?

If yes, then guess what?

The rocket is being lifted by the thrust of its own gases against the stack below which creates a direct super compression in that stack.
That super compression has to decompress again but as it does it's hit by the super expansion of rocket gases, time and time and time again for as long as those gases expand into it and compress.

However, whilst this is being done a barrier has been created and a consistent decompression is already taking place at every point during this.

The rocket sits atop it all for as long as it can keep doing what it's doing.

It's gas on gas expansion to compression fight that allows the rocket to be moved, not the actual rocket itself.
Oh...and by the way....this is the basics for everything but we don;t need to go into that.

Ok then
So you failed to make the logical connection.
Lets finish the thought.

The stack pushes the rocket up.
There is a force on the bottom side of the rpcket created by the gas.
That means the gas is oushing on the rocket even though the bottom is open.
That means the gas IS PUSHING on the rocket even though...
That means the GAS IS PUSHIN UP, the oppoiste direction of the hole.
That menas theres pressure on the opposite side of the hole.
That means...????

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2036 on: November 20, 2019, 12:26:57 AM »
I've been sticking to one specific thing for pages; the pressure gauge and how it works.
You are claiming there is no "positive" pressure. There's no such thing. The folks that manufacture pressure gauges do so with the intent that pressure is pushing on their gauge to register a reading.

 Whether the gauge is moving up or down. That is critical to how the gauges work, how they are read by the observer for millions of systems around the world. Critical.
And you come along and say, without evidence, that those millions of gauges are not registering a pressure on the gauge but some made up "negative" pressure. That's not how the device is designed nor used.
Well let's clarify positive and negative pressure from my side in terms of the gauge.

Let's assume a gauge with a piston on a spring just for the sake of argument.
You know you have to apply/positively push something (gas in this in stance) against that piston in order for it to move the spring to allow the pointer to move forward or to read a positive measurement on that gauge.


I'm assuming you'll accept this.

Ok, that's all positive pressure in a sealed container or a container with pressure added.

Open a valve and all that positive pressure is now pushing against the atmospheric resistance due to the gas on gas expansion of molecules inside the container all trying to expand but having to wait their turn to fully do it to equalise outside atmosphere but are all channelled towards the exit.

Behind them is the gauge and this gauge is no longer showing positive pressure on the needle, the piston or the spring. It's all negative because now it's simply a resistance to the spring compression.
Quote from: Stash
Bottomline, the device, as designed, if it has a reading, it has pressure on it. There's no such thing as positive and negative pressure when the reading is above 0. That is a simple fact.


Quote from: Stash
So unless you have evidence to the contrary and not just, "well that doesn't fit my theory," I'm afraid the standard of simple pressure gauges blows up your theory. As all evidence points to you being wrong.

In all tgese wrods you did not clarify "negative".
Try sgain.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2037 on: November 20, 2019, 12:32:08 AM »
Again, that is going to the path of pure insanity of declaring positive numbers negative or intentionally mixing up rate and value.
No it's not going into any path of insanity.
It's going into a path of people like yourself refusing to understand my point.

I'm not mixing up rate or value. In fact I'm explaining why one and the other work in this situation.
You see, I'm not declaring set positive numbers as negative and you need to understand the word, set.

Quote from: JackBlack
100 bar is a positive value.
Absolutely as long as it is 100 bar as a set number.


Quote from: JackBlack
As such, it if a gauge reads 100 bar, it is reading a positive value.
Absolutely. As long as the gauge reads 100 bar consistently.


Quote from: JackBlack
100 can never be negative.
This is not a difficult concept to understand.
Correct, 100 cannot be negative as long as it stays as 100 and obviously assuming a gauge is not faulty...but we won't bother with that.

You see1, 2, 3, 4, 50, 100, 1000...etrc...cannot be negative as long as they read a definitive set number or advance in numbers.

The conundrum (in terms of us arguing) starts when they don't do either.
This is the crux of the argument.

You see, 100 on a gauge will show 100 when positive pressure allows that gauge to set that pointer at 100.
If the pressure is added then immediately that 100 ceases to become 100. It may advance to say 100.00000001 or whatever. Or to make it simpler, 101.

This is an increasing pressure so everything is still positive and every number from 1 to 101 is still positive because every number from 1 to 101 is holding all that pressure.

However, if you open a valve to release that pressure you negate the positive pressure on the gauge. It no longer has any definitive set reading to the positive until you cease to allow the pressure towards the exit, to stop.
And only then can you read a gauge and see a positive pressure once again, whether it's down to 55,23,10 or 1 or 0.1.

Failure to shut down a valve renders the gauge as a negative, pressure wise. No gas is pushing positively into that gauge.

So you admit you have no clue wtf rate and value is.

a SET of positive nubmer VALUES shows the needle moving in the positive RATE direction.
The same SET of positivr number VALUES can be run in reverse to shows the needle moving in a negative RATE.

The presure gauge is not sentient either.
It doesnt know its moving in a specific direction.
Unless you claim otherwise?


"Failure to shut down a valve renders the gauge as a negative, pressure wise. No gas is pushing positively into that gauge."

So althoug in reality a gauge shows positive vlaues in a set (aka negative rate 100, 99, 98...) in your statement above there is no gas pushing on the gauge.
Are you under the belief that because the gauge is analog it reuqires time for it to adjust and this transit is just a function of the needle having to move in general?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 12:44:29 AM by Themightykabool »

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 22962
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2038 on: November 20, 2019, 04:05:17 AM »
You misunderstood in comment 2.
In a solid container, where the wall doesnt move, you pushing on it also doesnt move it.
The wall is solid enough to resist.
But youre still pushing.
Yep, as long as the pressure is positive, meaning contained or added to. Not when a valve is opened. Make this clear or you are arguing the same thing and you'll get the same answer.


Quote from: Themightykabool
If the wall were to suddenly crumble, you would bust outwards.
Yep, because the expansion would be immediate for that full area, pushed by the gradual but quick expansion of the gas behind and around it.

Quote from: Themightykabool
If you werent pushing, and the wall were to suddenly crumble, youd be standing there not moving.

Yes no?
If you weren't pushing even when the wall wasn't crumbling you're still not pushing when it does, which means you would be in an empty tank or an equalised tank with external atmosphere.

You need to clarify whatever it is you're trying to get across.

?

sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 22962
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #2039 on: November 20, 2019, 04:16:33 AM »
In the case of the airfilled crazy arm thing.
The fan provides a continuous supply if new air and maintains pressurization.
This pressure is seen by the fact the flexible tube is expanded.
When tge fan momentarily turns off, rhe tube rapidly loses the pressure as it equalizes with the outside air.
This proves you wrong and proves what stash is saying - gasses exerrt pressure in all directions, always.


It actually proves me right.
Where is the air loss?