HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

Lets see if highlighting will help scepti flush out the thought...

Quote from: Stash on November 18, 2019, 10:38:22 PM

Let's make it crystal clear, you're claiming that the gauges that are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?

Nope, not at all and you know this because it's been told time and time and time again.

There is pressure applied to the gauge by two means to push against a piston and spring to give a positive reading of pressure either pushing into the container or sealed into the container.

Can't be any simpler than that and in no way am I saying gauges don't work. So let's make that crystal clear.


However, once the valve is opened the gas all follow in that direction by natural expansion/decompression away from the gauge and the gauge shows this by showing a negative pressure drop.

The reason for this is because the gas is no longer pushing against the piston with the same positive force. The piston is pushing against the gas and the gas is now resisting that push as it expands behind other gases.

There is a negative drop.
Meaning the overall pressure decreases.
But once again - starting at 10psi and going to 1psi, 1psi is still a positive number even though there was a loss of 9psi.




As per scpeti
The air inside is not pushing with the same force because the pressure is being rekeased (sponges are allowed to decomp) through the hole.
But there still is a positive force!
So here we see scepti is blatantly using a different word definition than us.

There's nothing I need to change.

Sure, if you don't care about having a working model that can explain reality, you don't need to change anything.
However if you do want a working model which doesn't contradict itself and which can explain reality you do need to change a fair bit.

Quote from: JackBlack on November 18, 2019, 01:06:31 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 18, 2019, 04:40:16 AM

You're playing with quotes.
Look at the word, continuous.
You were talking of rates and values so deal with it as that and stop cherry picking to suit you. It only confuses you.

And you are avoiding the massive problems of your model.
The word "continuous" won't help you.
The gauge reads a positive value while the rate of change is negative.
That means there is a positive pressure acting on it which is decreasing.

Nope.
The gauge does not read a definitive anything when the valve is open.

Again you don't address what was said at all.

The simple fact is the gauge has a positive reading.
This shows pressure is acting on the gauge.

I've already explained what happens

No, you haven't.
You have repeatedly avoided it and contradicted yourself.
If the gas is not pushing against the gauge, the gauge will read 0, and it will get there very quickly.

If the gas is not applying a positive pressure to the gauge then the gauge will either show a needle fall or show zero.

No. Lets get this clear.
Without a positive pressure the gauge shows 0.
The only way to stop the gauge falling back to 0 very rapidly is to apply a force to the gauge.
It's as simple as that.

the gas is now resisting that push as it expands behind other gases.

Again, the only way for the gas to resist is for it to apply a force.
No force, no resistance.

And again, you avoid the very simple questions which show your model to be nothing more than childish fantasy:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?
How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim rather than the way mainstream science has shown it does?

I think the video of a rocket in vacuum showed some pressure, too. But then again it is most likely faked.

If the gas is resisting the piston in any way it is pushing, applying pressure and registering pressure in the gauge. You literally cannot win the gauge argument.

It's resisting the push just like all the gas molecules are doing all the way through.
The issue is, it's not creating a positive push on the gauge and this is the key.....unless the pressure is sealed or pushed against the gauge by force.
I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

There is too much evidence against it. The gauge builders build gauges used everywhere being able to show pressure and pressure must be applied to the gauge whether it be moving up of down.

I could build a gauge and so could you. It doesn't mean you have to know the exact molecular workings. All you have to know is whether it can move a needle when force is applied. Hold the needle when applied force is sealed or show a negative movement when that force is channelled opposite to that gauge.

  Sorry, your claim that gauges don't work as designed when they do everywhere is unaccepted and unacceptable.

Here, look at how different gauges work:



You just can't claim pressure gauges work differently than the people who design and make them, especially by just saying so with no evidence.

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.
 

Sorry, you lose and therefore lose the rocket in space debate because your notion of pressure inside a container, when applying Newton's 3rd can allow for a reactionary movement in the opposite direction based upon gas being mass.

I win the rocket in space debate for a number of reasons and reasons that logical thinking people should clearly see.

1. Nothing moves without external resistance to applied energy.

2. 3000 tonne rockets are certainly not going to stand upright holding the fuel we are told and managing to lift off and do so at thousands and thousands of mph, even working against atmosphere, let alone supposedly kicking themselves up their own arses.

3. Space does not exist in how we're told, as a nothingness or with silly scattered particles or whatever.

So therefore I do not lose and you certainly do not win.

There is a negative drop.
Meaning the overall pressure decreases.
But once again - starting at 10psi and going to 1psi, 1psi is still a positive number even though there was a loss of 9psi.

If you drop from 10 psi to 1 psi and shut the valve then the gauge reads a positive.
We aren't arguing this.

As per scpeti
The air inside is not pushing with the same force because the pressure is being rekeased (sponges are allowed to decomp) through the hole.
But there still is a positive force!
So here we see scepti is blatantly using a different word definition than us.

If the valve is opened there is no positive force on the gauge until the valve is shut before it reaches zero.
Understand this bit and you might not get yourself side tracked by adding in extras.

Lets get this clear.
Without a positive pressure the gauge shows 0.

Incorrect.
If the gauge showed 1...2...3...etc as a set 1 or 2 or 3 , etc, then the force on the gauge is a positive force of pressure, aided by the equal positive force against the closed valve and the container itself.

The only way to stop the gauge falling back to 0 very rapidly is to apply a force to the gauge.
It's as simple as that.

It doesn't matter whether it falls back very rapidly or whether it falls back over 2 weeks in a consistent depressurisation, it does not apply a positive force to the gauge.
It does however apply a positive force to the valve opening.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 18, 2019, 10:47:44 PM

the gas is now resisting that push as it expands behind other gases.

Again, the only way for the gas to resist is for it to apply a force.
No force, no resistance.

Yes it applies a force of resistance to the gauge piston and spring if the valve is open but it is not a positive force towards the gauge. It is now a positive force towards the open valve.

And again, you avoid the very simple questions which show your model to be nothing more than childish fantasy:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?

Gas.
It's pushing against each molecule of gas by natural expansion of each molecule due to it being compressed by applied energy.

How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?

It doesn't magically know, it simply follows the natural decompression state from a compressed state, when allowed, by opening the valve to allow it to decompress/expand against a lesser resistance to it.

How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

I'm not quite sure what you mean on this. Maybe clarify it a bit more.

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

The rocket is just the object atop the gas fight. It's the container that holds the compression, ready for super expansion against a lesser resistance at first which becomes a super compressed reactionary push.
The rocket simply sits on that gas on gas fight like a hovercraft sits above the sea or land.

The only difference is the rocket provides it's own tower build by expelling its fuel directly for quick thrust and by doing so it rides on it and the atmospheric gas fight meaning it rises into the air.

With a hovercraft or even a helicopter, it doesn't expend it's gas directly in one continuous expansion, meaning to get hose craft up higher you would literally have to raise the floor under them in a set hover thrust.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim rather than the way mainstream science has shown it does?

What evidence does mainstream have for showing it to work differently?

No more than I have.

Lets try another analogy.

A teeter totter.
You have 10x10lb, on left and a single 10lb weight on right.
The scale will show the roght side up in the air.
Yes no?

Assume yes.
Take off one weight off the left side.
90lbs left.
The right will still be up in the air.
90>10
Yes no?

Assume yes.

If the right is still up in the air, there is still a force pushing down on the left.
Regaddless of how fast you choose to remove the weights, this is a fact.
Final - yes no? - requires an answer

Quote from: JackBlack on November 19, 2019, 03:04:02 AM

Lets get this clear.
Without a positive pressure the gauge shows 0.

Incorrect.
If the gauge showed 1...2...3...etc as a set 1 or 2 or 3 , etc, then the force on the gauge is a positive force of pressure, aided by the equal positive force against the closed valve and the container itself.

Quote from: JackBlack

The only way to stop the gauge falling back to 0 very rapidly is to apply a force to the gauge.
It's as simple as that.

It doesn't matter whether it falls back very rapidly or whether it falls back over 2 weeks in a consistent depressurisation, it does not apply a positive force to the gauge.
It does however apply a positive force to the valve opening.

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Of course the needle moves in sucession - we live in a analog world.

What if needle read 3, 2, 1?
A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.
You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.
look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Lets try another analogy.

A teeter totter.
You have 10x10lb, on left and a single 10lb weight on right.
The scale will show the roght side up in the air.
Yes no?
Assume yes.
Take off one weight off the left side.
90lbs left.
The right will still be up in the air.
90>10
Yes no?

Assume yes.

If the right is still up in the air, there is still a force pushing down on the left.

Regaddless of how fast you choose to remove the weights, this is a fact.
Final - yes no? - requires an answer

It doesn't equate to the container. You're going to have to use a better analogy.

How come it does not? Lack of sponges?

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.

There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.

I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.

look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

Maybe you can look it up.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

How come it does not? Lack of sponges?

Bad analogy.

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 07:14:51 AM

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool

A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.

There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

Quote from: Themightykabool

You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.

I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.

Quote from: Themightykabool

look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

Maybe you can look it up.

fantasitc
we're finally getting somewhere.
you do DEFINITELY NOT understand or are speaking english when defining RATE or VALUE

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 07:06:22 AM

Lets try another analogy.

A teeter totter.
You have 10x10lb, on left and a single 10lb weight on right.
The scale will show the roght side up in the air.
Yes no?
Assume yes.
Take off one weight off the left side.
90lbs left.
The right will still be up in the air.
90>10
Yes no?

Assume yes.

If the right is still up in the air, there is still a force pushing down on the left.

Regaddless of how fast you choose to remove the weights, this is a fact.
Final - yes no? - requires an answer

It doesn't equate to the container. You're going to have to use a better analogy.

regardless of container
it is regard to the definition of RATE and VALUE.
the pressure gauge shows a VALUE regardless of direction of RATE.
the teetertotter can move up and down however high, but as long as the right side is NOT touching the ground, it is POSITIVE.
as long as the pressure gauge shows a value it is POSITIVE.
that is the point.
the analogy stands.
you sir, are not speaking english.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

regardless of container
it is regard to the definition of RATE and VALUE.
the pressure gauge shows a VALUE regardless of direction of RATE.
the teetertotter can move up and down however high, but as long as the right side is NOT touching the ground, it is POSITIVE.
as long as the pressure gauge shows a value it is POSITIVE.
that is the point.
the analogy stands.
you sir, are not speaking english.

I certainly don't think you are.

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 07:14:51 AM

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool

A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.

There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

Quote from: Themightykabool

You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.

I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.

Quote from: Themightykabool

look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

Maybe you can look it up.

aaah
"Flow is the rate"
Flow of what?
What is flowing?

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:37:06 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 07:14:51 AM

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool

A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.

There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

Quote from: Themightykabool

You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.

I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.

Quote from: Themightykabool

look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

Maybe you can look it up.

aaah
"Flow is the rate"
Flow of what?
What is flowing?

In this case it would be the flow of the needle or the flow of the exiting gas from the valve.
Basically a movement in one direction towards one opening.

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 09:01:25 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

Yes
The same as when an empty theartre opens its doors for th 5oclock show, it filks up with people just before 5oclock

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 09:01:25 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

Yes
The same as when an empty theartre opens its doors for th 5oclock show, it filks up with people just before 5oclock

Which means it's not anywhere near a vacuum like we're led to believe.

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 09:01:25 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

Yes
The same as when an empty theartre opens its doors for th 5oclock show, it filks up with people just before 5oclock

Which means it's not anywhere near a vacuum like we're led to believe.

If the room was empty before the  started piling in with peopl- was it no empty to begin with?
You want to play semantics?
By the very smeantict act of having somehting in space means space isnt empty, then no, space has stuff in it, the space between things is a s different story.

Therefore
Sceptus response is a nonanswer and a stupid rebuttl

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 10:23:09 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 09:01:25 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: rvlvr on November 19, 2019, 07:57:30 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

I may not win the argument with you but you certainly won't win it with me, because I believe I'm correct.

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 06:26:19 AM

They work how I say they work by my theory which makes perfect sense.
Nobody has proved me wrong.

Belief might well be the strongest force in the world, but your theory does not really matter. Things need validation, and you sure as hell have none.

Validation for what?
Show me the validation against what I'm saying.

I am sure there are others as well.

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

Yes
The same as when an empty theartre opens its doors for th 5oclock show, it filks up with people just before 5oclock

Which means it's not anywhere near a vacuum like we're led to believe.

If the room was empty before the  started piling in with peopl- was it no empty to begin with?
You want to play semantics?
By the very smeantict act of having somehting in space means space isnt empty, then no, space has stuff in it, the space between things is a s different story.

Therefore
Sceptus response is a nonanswer and a stupid rebuttl

Take your time when typing.

Any reading above zero is positive pressure, regardless whether it's increasing, or decreasing.


Since scepti likes analogies so much, try this. Poke a tiny hole in your tricycle tire. Air pressure drops slowly, and air is escaping, right?

Now quickly poke another hole in the other side of the same tire. Is air escaping from that hole as well?

Yes, because it's still under pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 10:04:48 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on November 19, 2019, 08:37:06 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on November 19, 2019, 07:14:51 AM

Are 1, 2, or 3 positive numbers?

Only if counted upwards and not backwards.

Holding 1 pressure on gauge is a positive. Raising the pressure to 2 and holding it is a positive. And so on.
Dropping from 3 to 2 and holding it is a positive pressure but is not whilst there is a moving drop in pressure.

Quote from: Themightykabool

A negative direction dossnt mean there is still no positive force applied.

There is no negative direction for force. It's all positive.

Quote from: Themightykabool

You still seem not to understand the difference between RATE and VALUE.

I perfectly understand rate and value.
I've been explaining it with the gauge for long enough.

The flow is the rate and the set pressure would be the value.
If you want to play around with this then let's go but it won;t change anything to your advantage.

Quote from: Themightykabool

look up the conventional definition before moving on.
Youre not speakig english

Maybe you can look it up.

aaah
"Flow is the rate"
Flow of what?
What is flowing?

In this case it would be the flow of the needle or the flow of the exiting gas from the valve.
Basically a movement in one direction towards one opening.

Pick one.
Because the two, although related, are mutually different things.

Any reading above zero is positive pressure, regardless whether it's increasing, or decreasing.


Since scepti likes analogies so much, try this. Poke a tiny hole in your tricycle tire. Air pressure drops slowly, and air is escaping, right?

Now quickly poke another hole in the other side of the same tire. Is air escaping from that hole as well?

Yes, because it's still under pressure.

Of course it's under pressure, why wouldn't it be?

Put a gauge on it and set it back up then get back to me.

Pick one.
Because the two, although related, are mutually different things.

Mutually different?

At around 10:20 it fills with smoke. Do you know what that means?

It means the same as existence of the exhaust behind the rocket engine in Moon orbit.
If rocket can push off air, it can also push off that exhaust.