HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1950 on: November 17, 2019, 10:48:22 PM »
please define your understanding of RATE vs VALUE
then we can move on.
because i clearly stated, in a single sentence, against your incorrect statement, which i highlighted.
You're trying to tell me I don't know so why don't you explain what you mean in terms of the container and gas.
Very simple, surely.
If you come back with the same nonsense then don't bother trying to tell me what's what.

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1951 on: November 17, 2019, 10:59:30 PM »


So I guess now we should inform all the folks who design, build, and/or use pressure gauges that their gauges are wrong; even though the gauge is going down at various rates seemingly based upon the throttling of gas exiting, that they are not really reading pressure because somehow no pressure is being applied to the gauge.
Their gauges aren't wrong. Their gauges show then exactly what they expect.
The only difference for them is in how it's happening by what they're told.
It does not change the way things work in reality, it just means the explanations for why it works are not wholly accurate.

No, the gauges are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1952 on: November 17, 2019, 11:13:11 PM »


So I guess now we should inform all the folks who design, build, and/or use pressure gauges that their gauges are wrong; even though the gauge is going down at various rates seemingly based upon the throttling of gas exiting, that they are not really reading pressure because somehow no pressure is being applied to the gauge.
Their gauges aren't wrong. Their gauges show then exactly what they expect.
The only difference for them is in how it's happening by what they're told.
It does not change the way things work in reality, it just means the explanations for why it works are not wholly accurate.

No, the gauges are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?
No I'm not. You seem to be getting mixed up.

I have no problem with a gauge working when pressure is applied.
I have no problem with a gauge working when there is no pressure positively applied.

It's understanding how and why it works from my side, which I've explained but you can't seem to grasp.

So let's make this a little bit easier and see if you can follow.

You add pressure to a container and the pressure added pushes a piston attached to a spring on a gauge, meaning that the pressure applied to the inside of the container is sufficient enough to push back that piston and compress the spring.

Do you agree with this so far?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1953 on: November 17, 2019, 11:14:27 PM »
please define your understanding of RATE vs VALUE
then we can move on.
because i clearly stated, in a single sentence, against your incorrect statement, which i highlighted.
You're trying to tell me I don't know so why don't you explain what you mean in terms of the container and gas.
Very simple, surely.
If you come back with the same nonsense then don't bother trying to tell me what's what.

no
you're the one ignoring.
you are wrong because you can't decipher the difference between RATE vs VALUE

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1954 on: November 17, 2019, 11:16:04 PM »




If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.

incorrect
what part of this do you fail to understand?
A negative RATE is NOT the same as a negative VALUE


we can repost it becuase you conveniently chose to ignore.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1955 on: November 17, 2019, 11:16:20 PM »
please define your understanding of RATE vs VALUE
then we can move on.
because i clearly stated, in a single sentence, against your incorrect statement, which i highlighted.
You're trying to tell me I don't know so why don't you explain what you mean in terms of the container and gas.
Very simple, surely.
If you come back with the same nonsense then don't bother trying to tell me what's what.

no
you're the one ignoring.
you are wrong because you can't decipher the difference between RATE vs VALUE
It seems you can't explain. Leave it at that and don;t bother arguing it, unless you come back and explain.
Any silly arguments will be bypassed because this is when the tit for tat becomes pointless.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1956 on: November 17, 2019, 11:17:26 PM »


we can repost it becuase you conveniently chose to ignore.
Use your own words to show me rate and value in terms of what I'm debating.
If you refuse or can't then say that and we can move on.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1957 on: November 17, 2019, 11:26:24 PM »
at start, the pressure gauge shows a positive VALUE reading of 10psi.
it has a negative RATE, decreasing 1psi every 1min.
after 10min
it finally shows zero.
at what point will the gauge show negative VALUE?

according to you, as long as there's a leak, it's negative pressure.

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1958 on: November 17, 2019, 11:27:09 PM »


So I guess now we should inform all the folks who design, build, and/or use pressure gauges that their gauges are wrong; even though the gauge is going down at various rates seemingly based upon the throttling of gas exiting, that they are not really reading pressure because somehow no pressure is being applied to the gauge.
Their gauges aren't wrong. Their gauges show then exactly what they expect.
The only difference for them is in how it's happening by what they're told.
It does not change the way things work in reality, it just means the explanations for why it works are not wholly accurate.

No, the gauges are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?
No I'm not. You seem to be getting mixed up.

I have no problem with a gauge working when pressure is applied.
I have no problem with a gauge working when there is no pressure positively applied.

It's understanding how and why it works from my side, which I've explained but you can't seem to grasp.

So let's make this a little bit easier and see if you can follow.

You add pressure to a container and the pressure added pushes a piston attached to a spring on a gauge, meaning that the pressure applied to the inside of the container is sufficient enough to push back that piston and compress the spring.

Do you agree with this so far?

Yes.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1959 on: November 17, 2019, 11:48:24 PM »
at start, the pressure gauge shows a positive VALUE reading of 10psi.
it has a negative RATE, decreasing 1psi every 1min.
after 10min
it finally shows zero.
at what point will the gauge show negative VALUE?

according to you, as long as there's a leak, it's negative pressure.
At what point did I ever say the gauge did show a negative value?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1960 on: November 17, 2019, 11:51:24 PM »


So let's make this a little bit easier and see if you can follow.

You add pressure to a container and the pressure added pushes a piston attached to a spring on a gauge, meaning that the pressure applied to the inside of the container is sufficient enough to push back that piston and compress the spring.

Do you agree with this so far?

Yes.
Ok, so we can call this a positive pressure.

Now do you agree if a valve is opened the piston on that gauge will now follow behind the gas and the spring behind the piston will be pushing on that gas whilst the gas is resisting that push?

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1961 on: November 18, 2019, 12:33:17 AM »


So let's make this a little bit easier and see if you can follow.

You add pressure to a container and the pressure added pushes a piston attached to a spring on a gauge, meaning that the pressure applied to the inside of the container is sufficient enough to push back that piston and compress the spring.

Do you agree with this so far?

Yes.
Ok, so we can call this a positive pressure.

Ooo, ouch, slippery slope my friend. I would call it just pressure. But if you want to call it positive pressure that to me means any pressure on the gauge that is greater than 0. Negative pressure would be any pressure less than 0. Which is how positive and negative works.
When I'm driving a car at 50 mph and slow down to 35 mph, I'm not going negative 15 mph. I'm going 35 mph.

But, I'll play along. For this exercise, ok, let's call it positive pressure.

Now do you agree if a valve is opened the piston on that gauge will now follow behind the gas and the spring behind the piston will be pushing on that gas whilst the gas is resisting that push?

No. The gas pressure is pushing on all sides as pressure does, the very nature of pressure. And it is pushing against the piston and spring in the gauge and the resistance of the piston and spring against the pressure of the gas is what registers on the gauge dial. That's how a gauge is designed to work. If there is no pressure on the piston and spring the gauge will be 0. That's the fact.

So with an open valve, the pressure is being relieved from all sides/area of the container and the pressure on the resistance of the pin and spring of the gauge begins to lessen and so on until the pressure on the piston and spring is 0. Hence the reading of 0 when no pressure is applied.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1962 on: November 18, 2019, 01:52:46 AM »
at start, the pressure gauge shows a positive VALUE reading of 10psi.
it has a negative RATE, decreasing 1psi every 1min.
after 10min
it finally shows zero.
at what point will the gauge show negative VALUE?

according to you, as long as there's a leak, it's negative pressure.
At what point did I ever say the gauge did show a negative value?

Serioussly...
Ill copy paste it again






Sentient for sure.

Because you can't have a pressure gauge showing any sort of pressure above 0 unless there is pressure. So there must be some other magic going on.
You're another one who doesn't get it.
There's nothing sentient about it, but maybe this is your and others ways of playing the wind up game. If so then fair enough.
The only sentient thing about how the gas is compressed into the container is the person doing it. The gas molecules naturally decompress when allowed to by applying less pressure to them or by opening a valve or a breach at any point in any container holding a pressure, etc.

If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.

incorrect
what part of this do you fail to understand?
A negative RATE is NOT the same as a negative VALUE
How about you explain where I've got this wrong instead of just saying it.

i did.
i did explain it.
others have explained it.
i highlighted it.
what part of english do you not understand?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets CAN fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1963 on: November 18, 2019, 01:53:16 AM »
How would the air know that a new opening existed?
It doesn't. The air is compressed into the container. Forget about air knowing this and that.
It's compression of air to be more compressed than what it was before, or to be a bit simpler, normal atmospheric sea level pressure in this instance.
So now it gets compressed by applied energy into a container.
Because it's compressed more molecules can be added because they become smaller by compression into each other and stay like that if the container valve is shut.
Notice how you completely avoid the question yet again?
It is really a quite simple question.
But with your model, you can't answer it.

Lets consider this very simple problem from 2 models, yours and reality. First lets do yours:
You have your gas in your tank under pressure trying to push outwards in all directions to get more room.
Now an opening forms.
This now means your gas, instead of trying to move outwards in all directions just magically heads towards the opening, not caring about what is behind them.
Now a new opening forms behind the gas.
There is no way for that to get conveyed to the gas as they don't care what is behind them.
This means the gas should continue heading to the original opening and not care at all about the new opening.

Now reality:
The gas is trying to expand outwards in all directions but is kept trapped by the tank.
The gas remains in position due to the reactionary force from the tank pushing inwards against the gas.
Now an opening forms.
Now the force on the gas is unbalanced. The gas right near the opening is pushed out by the gas further in, with its own resistance to changing motion providing a reactionary force to stop all the gas instantly accelerating as one.
The gas further inside continues to push outwards in all directions, but due to the unbalanced forces it slowly migrates towards the opening.
But now a new opening forms.
The gas near it is still trying to push outwards in all directions, so the gas gets pushed outwards by that slightly further in.

No need for sentient gas.
No need for the gas to head off in one direction.
No need for the gas to magically know to turn around.

Because a new opening exists which means the gas expands out of that new opening
This only makes sense if the gas is trying to expand in all directions.

When one end is opened up it's a case of, about turn and follow the leader out of the opening.
Which, ignoring the fact that that makes no sense at all and is clearly refuted by reality, that means they should follow the leader. Why turn back?

And no, that does mean your gas is sentient.
That was shown by another question that you have repeatedly ignored.
How does your gas know to only move towards the opening rather than trying to push outwards in every direction.

Or you just don't get it, which is the reality I'm afraid.
No, the reality is that we get it quite well and just realise your model is pure nonsense.
The real question is if you understand that and are just trolling or if you actually believe your nonsense.

You see, my theory still allows everything to work as they do. The only thing it kills off is stuff like rockets working in so called space vacuums or extreme low pressure environments.

The reason for that is obvious if you understand my theory.
Yes, the reason is obvious.
You want to reject the reality of space as that goes against your fantasy. So you will pretend everything else works so you can pretend there is nothing wrong with your model.

But in reality, your model doesn't work.
It repeatedly contradicts itself and can't explain reality.

But you don't care.
You care more about rejecting the reality of rockets than having a working model.

the gas is now resisting the piston
i.e. it is exerting a force and pushing on the gauge. That is the only way to resist. Otherwise it has no effect on the motion of the piston.

But of course, there you go contradicting yourself in a single sentence.
You say it is pushing, but not pushing.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND!


Have you figured out the answers to the very simple questions you have been avoiding yet:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?
How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1964 on: November 18, 2019, 04:40:16 AM »
at start, the pressure gauge shows a positive VALUE reading of 10psi.
it has a negative RATE, decreasing 1psi every 1min.
after 10min
it finally shows zero.
at what point will the gauge show negative VALUE?

according to you, as long as there's a leak, it's negative pressure.
At what point did I ever say the gauge did show a negative value?

Serioussly...
Ill copy paste it again






Sentient for sure.

Because you can't have a pressure gauge showing any sort of pressure above 0 unless there is pressure. So there must be some other magic going on.
You're another one who doesn't get it.
There's nothing sentient about it, but maybe this is your and others ways of playing the wind up game. If so then fair enough.
The only sentient thing about how the gas is compressed into the container is the person doing it. The gas molecules naturally decompress when allowed to by applying less pressure to them or by opening a valve or a breach at any point in any container holding a pressure, etc.

If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.

incorrect
what part of this do you fail to understand?
A negative RATE is NOT the same as a negative VALUE
How about you explain where I've got this wrong instead of just saying it.

i did.
i did explain it.
others have explained it.
i highlighted it.
what part of english do you not understand?
You're playing with quotes.
Look at the word, continuous.
You were talking of rates and values so deal with it as that and stop cherry picking to suit you. It only confuses you.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1965 on: November 18, 2019, 04:55:37 AM »
So then we re in agreement air pushes out in all directions and there is postive pressure on the gauge and you want to issue a correction to your choice word "negative"

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1966 on: November 18, 2019, 01:06:31 PM »
You're playing with quotes.
Look at the word, continuous.
You were talking of rates and values so deal with it as that and stop cherry picking to suit you. It only confuses you.
And you are avoiding the massive problems of your model.
The word "continuous" won't help you.

The gauge reads a positive value while the rate of change is negative.
That means there is a positive pressure acting on it which is decreasing.

But again, you are yet to answer these questions:
What is the gas pushing against to allow it to move (which isn't the rocket and which the rocket can't push against)?
How does the gas magically know to stop pushing outwards in all directions and instead only push towards the opening?
How does the gas move towards the opening if it is pushing towards it, meaning it would be pushed away?

And remember, any answer you provide for the first question also needs to address why it works for the gas but not the rocket.

And as a bonus question, just what evidence at all do you have that gas works the way you claim rather than the way mainstream science has shown it does?

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1967 on: November 18, 2019, 01:18:28 PM »
Maybe he cant graph.
He likes analogies

Say youre climbing a mountain.
The mountain starts at sea level.
On the up side you are above the sea (positive pressure value) and positive rate (rate) of ascent.
On the down side you are still above sea level, but with a negative rate of ascent (meaning downward rate).
Its not until you reach sea level and enter the gully that you go below sea level (negative pressure).

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1968 on: November 18, 2019, 02:47:05 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.

Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1969 on: November 18, 2019, 02:49:48 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.

Aaah too technical for poor scepti.
PsiG or psiA could be zero and anything less woild be neg.
The zero is arbirary.

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rabinoz

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1970 on: November 18, 2019, 03:08:42 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.

Aaah too technical for poor scepti.
PsiG or psiA could be zero and anything less would be neg.
The zero is arbitrary.
But I thought that Sceppy was the expert on sll matters to do with gasses ::)?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1971 on: November 18, 2019, 10:07:41 PM »
So then we re in agreement air pushes out in all directions and there is postive pressure on the gauge and you want to issue a correction to your choice word "negative"
There's nothing I need to change. I'm quite happy with what I've explained. How you interpret it all is down to you.
How you try to twist is back to your way of thinking is also your prerogative.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1972 on: November 18, 2019, 10:12:38 PM »
You're playing with quotes.
Look at the word, continuous.
You were talking of rates and values so deal with it as that and stop cherry picking to suit you. It only confuses you.
And you are avoiding the massive problems of your model.
The word "continuous" won't help you.

The gauge reads a positive value while the rate of change is negative.
That means there is a positive pressure acting on it which is decreasing.



Nope.
The gauge does not read a definitive anything when the valve is open. It's a ever decreasing gauge pointer which has no definitive set number to gauge anything on it. Note that I say on it.

This is the crux of the matter we're dealing with in terms of the gauge.
I've already explained what happens with the piston and spring and how it is allowed to push behind the outgoing gas once the valve is opened.
The gas no longer pushes against the gauge with any positive force.


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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1973 on: November 18, 2019, 10:14:29 PM »
Maybe he cant graph.
He likes analogies

Say youre climbing a mountain.
The mountain starts at sea level.
On the up side you are above the sea (positive pressure value) and positive rate (rate) of ascent.
On the down side you are still above sea level, but with a negative rate of ascent (meaning downward rate).
Its not until you reach sea level and enter the gully that you go below sea level (negative pressure).
We're not talking about negative pressure overall. We're talking about negative pressure upon the gauge.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1974 on: November 18, 2019, 10:21:33 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.
Let's make this clear.
If the gas is not applying a positive pressure to the gauge then the gauge will either show a needle fall or show zero.
If it applying positive pressure then the gauge needle will stay put over zero or advance forward of zero. It's as simple as that.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1975 on: November 18, 2019, 10:22:58 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.

Aaah too technical for poor scepti.
PsiG or psiA could be zero and anything less would be neg.
The zero is arbitrary.
But I thought that Sceppy was the expert on sll matters to do with gasses ::)?
Clearly you aren't. You believe in space rockets.

*

Stash

  • 3501
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1976 on: November 18, 2019, 10:38:22 PM »
If the gauge shows a continuous lowering of pressure it means it has negative pressure upon it and it simply follows the flow/decompression out towards the open valve until its piston is fully extended or the needle reads zero, unless the valve is closed at any point before the gauge has the opportunity to reach zero.
I should have picked this up earlier but you claim "it means it has negative pressure upon it".
But there can never be a negative pressure in a gas. The pressure can be less than atmospheric pressure and many pressure gauges read only the difference.
In a solid a negative pressure is quite possible and is called tension.
Under rather special conditions, even a liquid cab sustain a negative pressure but gas can never sustain a negative pressure.
Let's make this clear.
If the gas is not applying a positive pressure to the gauge then the gauge will either show a needle fall or show zero.
If it applying positive pressure then the gauge needle will stay put over zero or advance forward of zero. It's as simple as that.

Let's make it crystal clear, you're claiming that the gauges that are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?

?

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1977 on: November 18, 2019, 10:47:44 PM »
Let's make it crystal clear, you're claiming that the gauges that are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?
Nope, not at all and you know this because it's been told time and time and time again.

There is pressure applied to the gauge by two means to push against a piston and spring to give a positive reading of pressure either pushing into the container or sealed into the container.

Can't be any simpler than that and in no way am I saying gauges don't work. So let's make that crystal clear.


However, once the valve is opened the gas all follow in that direction by natural expansion/decompression away from the gauge and the gauge shows this by showing a negative pressure drop.

The reason for this is because the gas is no longer pushing against the piston with the same positive force. The piston is pushing against the gas and the gas is now resisting that push as it expands behind other gases.


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rvlvr

  • 1445
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1978 on: November 18, 2019, 11:38:33 PM »
Ermahgerd — ’tis a YerTerb video!


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Stash

  • 3501
Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1979 on: November 18, 2019, 11:52:19 PM »
Let's make it crystal clear, you're claiming that the gauges that are designed by people with the notion in mind that for their gauge to have a reading, pressure must be placed on the gauge. You're claiming that they built something that has to have pressure applied to it for it to work correctly and yet no pressure is applied and it still works? Even though it's built to only work when pressure is applied?
Nope, not at all and you know this because it's been told time and time and time again.

There is pressure applied to the gauge by two means to push against a piston and spring to give a positive reading of pressure either pushing into the container or sealed into the container.

Can't be any simpler than that and in no way am I saying gauges don't work. So let's make that crystal clear.


However, once the valve is opened the gas all follow in that direction by natural expansion/decompression away from the gauge and the gauge shows this by showing a negative pressure drop.

The reason for this is because the gas is no longer pushing against the piston with the same positive force. The piston is pushing against the gas and the gas is now resisting that push as it expands behind other gases.

If the gas is resisting the piston in any way it is pushing, applying pressure and registering pressure in the gauge. You literally cannot win the gauge argument.

There is too much evidence against it. The gauge builders build gauges used everywhere being able to show pressure and pressure must be applied to the gauge whether it be moving up of down. Sorry, your claim that gauges don't work as designed when they do everywhere is unaccepted and unacceptable.

Here, look at how different gauges work:



You just can't claim pressure gauges work differently than the people who design and make them, especially by just saying so with no evidence.

Sorry, you lose and therefore lose the rocket in space debate because your notion of pressure inside a container, when applying Newton's 3rd can allow for a reactionary movement in the opposite direction based upon gas being mass.