HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1500 on: November 05, 2019, 03:04:24 PM »

Buoyancy says that more dense things tend to sink into and below less dense things.  Do you agree with that?
Give me an example.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1501 on: November 05, 2019, 03:08:38 PM »


Oh i understand it.
I am smart.
You dont seem to undersrand your own theory.

The hair is has air all around it so it stays up.
If i jump, i have air all around me - should i stay up?

But you claim Air pushes things down.
If its pushing from the top, my hair will be flattened.
Is it?

You claim air is stacked sponges upon spongese in a long chain all the way up to the ice dome.
Yet the air somehow disconndcts when it decides my hair is not part of my body?

Air is displaced in all directions?
So how does that equate to a total net down direction?
Like I said, after all this time you don't understand it.
It's fine proclaiming you're smart but clearly you're not paying attention or are doing this deliberately even after clear explanation from my side.

Maybe you simply go into your schooled stuff which makes you fail to grasp. It doesn't make you less smart but it certainly makes you ignorant.
The fact you used the jump as if you were explaining something, tells me you fail to grasp.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1502 on: November 05, 2019, 03:10:35 PM »
You were asked to provide an intelligent diagram of how atmoplane pushes me down when i stand in my house.
Still yet to see...
You were provided with one. You refused to grasp it which is down to you, not me.
Asking me to provide again will gain you very little response.
The fact you refuse to look at it gains you nothing on the whole.

You drew a house.
With a line on each side that said "denpressure".
Great theory.
It is a great theory and one that people like yourself dismiss without even trying to grasp it. I can't help people like you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1503 on: November 05, 2019, 03:13:12 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

How does heat work?
Molecular friction/vibration.

Friction & vibration are movements. Movements require space within which to move. Ergo, there is space between molecules.
They don't require space to move at all. They just require the ability to expand and contract against and into each other or out of each other, depending.

There cannot be any free space where nothing exists in it. It's impossible and makes no sense at all.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1504 on: November 05, 2019, 03:24:33 PM »


How does a beer put in the freezer for too long, freeze, expand and burst?
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Nothing is added to the beer as it is pressure sealed.
Yet when freezing process the moecule (in the conventional physics terms) expand, and eventually the bottle fails.
Hes proving that space is a thing.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1505 on: November 05, 2019, 03:25:50 PM »


Oh i understand it.
I am smart.
You dont seem to undersrand your own theory.

The hair is has air all around it so it stays up.
If i jump, i have air all around me - should i stay up?

But you claim Air pushes things down.
If its pushing from the top, my hair will be flattened.
Is it?

You claim air is stacked sponges upon spongese in a long chain all the way up to the ice dome.
Yet the air somehow disconndcts when it decides my hair is not part of my body?

Air is displaced in all directions?
So how does that equate to a total net down direction?
Like I said, after all this time you don't understand it.
It's fine proclaiming you're smart but clearly you're not paying attention or are doing this deliberately even after clear explanation from my side.

Maybe you simply go into your schooled stuff which makes you fail to grasp. It doesn't make you less smart but it certainly makes you ignorant.
The fact you used the jump as if you were explaining something, tells me you fail to grasp.

Wahwahaah
Im one of the few who stays within your model.
You prove to have no intelligent response and thus run away instead of "correcting".

Maybe take responsibility for your inability to cpherently explain the basic mechanics of your theory.
Or why the rest of the industrialized world gets along fine with pv=nrt and other basic physics formulas.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 01:05:58 AM by Themightykabool »

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1506 on: November 05, 2019, 03:26:47 PM »
You were asked to provide an intelligent diagram of how atmoplane pushes me down when i stand in my house.
Still yet to see...
You were provided with one. You refused to grasp it which is down to you, not me.
Asking me to provide again will gain you very little response.
The fact you refuse to look at it gains you nothing on the whole.

You drew a house.
With a line on each side that said "denpressure".
Great theory.
It is a great theory and one that people like yourself dismiss without even trying to grasp it. I can't help people like you.

Nope
You cant answer the simplest of questions.

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markjo

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1507 on: November 05, 2019, 04:25:09 PM »

Buoyancy says that more dense things tend to sink into and below less dense things.  Do you agree with that?
Give me an example.
Umm...  Oil floating on water.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1508 on: November 06, 2019, 12:14:44 AM »
I'll draw a diagram sometime tomorrow showing you what I mean about how the rocket really works. The diagram may be crude but it'll make a point from my side and it's entirely up to you how you view it.
I'll be waiting.
But remember, this is mainly focusing on a vacuum. So don't draw a diagram of how a rocket works in the atmosphere, draw/indicate exactly what happens with that setup of a rocket in a vacuum (or as you call it extreme low pressure).

You either refuse to understand it or can't. Which one is it?
Or, we understand it and understand that it is wrong as it contradicts reality and/or itself.

We grasp your hypothesis quite well. At least some of us do. We just understand it is wrong and does not describe reality at all.
Understanding your model contradicts reality doesn't mean we don't understand your model nor that we aren't even trying to grasp it.

However your continued dismissal of those who realise your theory is wrong, especially by avoiding questions and just saying people don't understand does show that you aren't even trying to make a coherent model and don't care if your model contradicts itself.

How about you stop dismissing people as not understanding your model and instead try and justify your claims.

You can call it buoyancy if you want as long as you leave out the fictional stuff like gravity. If you can't then I simply refute it and use my own version.
You mean leave out the real stuff like gravity. If we use reality then you will reject, not refute. There is a big difference between reject and refute.

Like I said, after all this time you don't understand it.
No, after all this time, you are still unable to make a coherent model and instead you are still contradicting yourself, and we understand that.

If you think we are wrong, please explain why an object surrounded by air falls, but an object surrounded by air doesn't fall.

Notice the problem? We sure can. In both cases, they are surrounded by air, but you get 2 wildly different results.

There cannot be any free space where nothing exists in it. It's impossible and makes no sense at all.
Again, all we have for that is your baseless assertion.

Why is it impossible?
Why doesn't it make any sense at all?

Objects have a position in 3D space (or you can even say 4D space-time).
If you have an object in one position, and another object in another position, with no object in the position between them, then there is free space between them.

All free space is is free space that isn't occupied by an object.
Sure you can appeal to the quantum level to appeal to virtual particles and probability functions, but that isn't what is being discussed here, as that doesn't affect the size of the molecule.

Friction & vibration are movements. Movements require space within which to move. Ergo, there is space between molecules.
While movement requires space, it doesn't require that space to be free as it can just push objects out of the way.

Nothing is added to the beer as it is pressure sealed.
Yet when freezing process the moecule (in the conventional physics terms) expand, and eventually the bottle fails.
Hes proving that space is a thing.
While some may argue over exactly what constitutes the size of the molecule, for the simple level, the molecule remains the same size.
The big issue for water is the nature of the hydrogen bonding.
Liquid water (at least when warm) has roughly 3.5 hydrogen bonds on each molecule. But solid water has 4.
The necessary orientation of the hydrogen bonds means the solid water needs to adopt a more open crystal structure, with significant voids, while the liquid water is more disordered and fills the voids.

However this is a good example, as there is no reason for the molecules to expand when they cool, as for almost everything else they would need to shrink as they cool.
Water, between 4 degrees and 0 degrees, would need to expand in denpressure. While conventional physics/chemistry explains it so well.

The same applies to other negative thermal expansion coefficient materials.
Denspressure needs them to magically expand when cooling.
But for conventional physics, these are materials which have open structures, such that when they are cold and rigid there are large voids as the linear connections between atoms keeps them spaces apart. But when they are heated up and begin to vibrate, these linear connections become bent and allow the atoms to begin to fill the voids and shrink.

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Cuddyer05

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1509 on: November 06, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »
I guess I am still confused as to why someone could not simply apply conservation of momentum to show that rockets can fly in a vacuum since my previous question has not been answered.  There is a lot of talk about air pressure and expansion of gases that is really not necessary to answer the primary question.  I think we all agree that when a rocket is launched, gas is pushed out of the back of the rocket.  Since a rocket starts at rest, the initial momentum of the rocket, its fuel, and the gas that will eventually be formed is zero.  As gas gets pushed out the back of the rocket, the rocket and the remaining fuel must move forward to conserve momentum.

p0=pf

0 = mgasvgas+mrocketvrocket

-mgasvgas/mrocket = vrocket

Seems pretty straight forward that a rocket would move in the opposite direction of the gases being expelled from the back of rocket. 

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Cuddyer05

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1510 on: November 06, 2019, 09:14:39 AM »
I guess I am still confused as to why someone could not simply apply conservation of momentum to show that rockets can fly in a vacuum since my previous question has not been answered.  There is a lot of talk about air pressure and expansion of gases that is really not necessary to answer the primary question.  I think we all agree that when a rocket is launched, gas is pushed out of the back of the rocket.  Since a rocket starts at rest, the initial momentum of the rocket, its fuel, and the gas that will eventually be formed is zero.  As gas gets pushed out the back of the rocket, the rocket and the remaining fuel MUST move forward to conserve momentum.

p0=pf

0 = mgasvgas+mrocketvrocket

-mgasvgas/mrocket = vrocket

Seems pretty straight forward that a rocket would move in the opposite direction of the gases being expelled from the back of rocket.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1511 on: November 06, 2019, 09:15:48 AM »
Because they believe its pushing off the air.

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Cuddyer05

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1512 on: November 06, 2019, 11:42:41 AM »
Because they believe its pushing off the air.

That is why I am asking about conservation of momentum.  By applying this general principle of physics, we can show that the rocket can indeed move forward without the need of an external pushing force (air pushing the rocket).

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1513 on: November 06, 2019, 12:16:43 PM »
I guess I am still confused as to why someone could not simply apply conservation of momentum to show that rockets can fly in a vacuum since my previous question has not been answered.
While it is pretty straight forwards, they reject a lost of physics, including things like conservation of momentum.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1514 on: November 06, 2019, 12:31:56 PM »
Hah
You cant "math" with them.
Look up any previous discussions with scepti.
Esrlier this year it went on for +50pg.

What you need to do is adhere to their "understanding" of physics and work out a disproof of their concept.

They lay out case A.
Show case B, under all the same circumstances, doesnt work.
And the result is usually for them to run away or dismissal.

Case in point, lackless in turn ends up giving one word nonanswers and scepti says dismisses all further discussion claiming we re not smart enough to understand his theory.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 12:36:05 PM by Themightykabool »

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1515 on: November 06, 2019, 10:58:20 PM »


How does a beer put in the freezer for too long, freeze, expand and burst?
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Nothing is added to the beer as it is pressure sealed.
Yet when freezing process the moecule (in the conventional physics terms) expand, and eventually the bottle fails.
Hes proving that space is a thing.
He's not proving space is a thing. He's simply showing how liquid and gas react against a solid, by expansion and contraction of molecules, inside and outside.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1516 on: November 06, 2019, 11:03:35 PM »

Im one of the few who stays within your model.
You prove to have no intelligent response and thus run away instead of "correcting".

Maybe take responsibility for your inability to cpherently explain the basic mechanics of your theory.
Or why the rest of the industrialized world gets along fine with pv=nrt and other basic physics formulas.
Forget your formulas when trying to argue against what I'm saying.
Also try not to act so smug in telling all and sundry that you're one of the few that stays within my model. You have little clue about it because you can't argue any point of it in the way I explain it, whether you think my explanation is coherent or not.

Know how my molecules work and you'll actually get a grip and understand why they work.
It's pretty simple once grasped.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1517 on: November 06, 2019, 11:04:51 PM »


Nope
You cant answer the simplest of questions.
I think I do answer 99% of all questions, which is impressive when you understand the sheer amount of posters throwing stuff at me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1518 on: November 06, 2019, 11:07:48 PM »

Buoyancy says that more dense things tend to sink into and below less dense things.  Do you agree with that?
Give me an example.
Umm...  Oil floating on water.
Ok let's argue this a little bit.

A ship of known measured mass.
A block of metal made from the exact same mass of the ship.
One floats and the other sinks, yet the dense mass is exactly the same.

Now of course you're going to say buoyancy. However we need to argue what is really happening, even though your text books will explain it from your side.
Over to you.

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Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1519 on: November 06, 2019, 11:08:10 PM »


How does a beer put in the freezer for too long, freeze, expand and burst?
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Nothing is added to the beer as it is pressure sealed.
Yet when freezing process the moecule (in the conventional physics terms) expand, and eventually the bottle fails.
Hes proving that space is a thing.
He's not proving space is a thing. He's simply showing how liquid and gas react against a solid, by expansion and contraction of molecules, inside and outside.

So, in essence, you claim that how heat and cold affect substances from a conventional bio-chemical perspective is incorrect? So not only do you reject basic physics, you reject the basics of bio-chemistry as well?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1520 on: November 06, 2019, 11:28:16 PM »
I'll draw a diagram sometime tomorrow showing you what I mean about how the rocket really works. The diagram may be crude but it'll make a point from my side and it's entirely up to you how you view it.
I'll be waiting.
But remember, this is mainly focusing on a vacuum. So don't draw a diagram of how a rocket works in the atmosphere, draw/indicate exactly what happens with that setup of a rocket in a vacuum (or as you call it extreme low pressure).

I won't bother drawing a diagram for what you ask. It would be pointless.
So let's argue a spring. We'll use a spring as our molecules of gas in your vacuum and in my atmosphere.

If you hold a spring in your hand by holding it down with your other hand in a fully compressed set up and then quickly took away your hand above that spring, tell me what you would expect to happen on that uncoil/expansion and what you would feel on your holding hand which is the foundation for the base of the spring.

Just answer this one on its own and we'll go on from this point.


Quote from: JackBlack

The same applies to other negative thermal expansion coefficient materials.
Denpressure needs them to magically expand when cooling.

Because that's what happens.
A evacuation chamber will verify this. You can all use one.

In my model it works fine.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1521 on: November 06, 2019, 11:30:08 PM »
Because they believe its pushing off the air.

That is why I am asking about conservation of momentum.  By applying this general principle of physics, we can show that the rocket can indeed move forward without the need of an external pushing force (air pushing the rocket).
Explain this conservation of momentum with your rocket so I know what you're trying to get at.

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rvlvr

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1522 on: November 06, 2019, 11:34:29 PM »






« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 11:36:14 PM by rvlvr »

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1523 on: November 06, 2019, 11:36:29 PM »

So, in essence, you claim that how heat and cold affect substances from a conventional bio-chemical perspective is incorrect? So not only do you reject basic physics, you reject the basics of bio-chemistry as well?
In the way we're told, yes.
It doesn't change anything in life, just the explanation of things.

You're only arguing from a point of adherence to diagram and text as your proof of what you're arguing against my theory, of which you know I cannot actually prove to you because we're talking about stuff that is outside of our observation capabilities and relies on basic theory.


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rvlvr

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1524 on: November 06, 2019, 11:40:55 PM »
So what about the conservation of momentum?

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1525 on: November 06, 2019, 11:44:58 PM »





You're basically talking about action and equal and opposite reaction, right?

This would be fine as long as you have leverage. Everything requires leverage/resistance in order to create the action and equal and opposite reaction.

In atmosphere you have your pressure just sitting there waiting for that rocket to open up and expand its gas into it.
The atmosphere acts like the trampoline in terms of absorbing the impact of the exiting gas of the rocket and is compressed to a limit in short order. It now reacts to that thrust by compressing back in an equal and opposite reaction to that action while that rocket keeps on throwing out that thrust.

It creates a consistent movement of the rocket and a consistent resistance of the atmosphere below, almost like stacking trampolines onto trampolines which rests the rocket gases onto the atmospheric gases.

All the rocket does is sits above the gas fight.
There is no internal pushing going on.


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rvlvr

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1526 on: November 06, 2019, 11:50:54 PM »
Well, I guess that is settled then! No way in hell rockets can fly in space!

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1527 on: November 07, 2019, 12:03:00 AM »
Well, I guess that is settled then! No way in hell rockets can fly in space!
Glad you accept it.

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rvlvr

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1528 on: November 07, 2019, 12:19:18 AM »
But may I suggest you register at scienceforums.net, and tell them of your findings?

Not much use for you to spend your time here, when you could be rewriting science history.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1529 on: November 07, 2019, 12:22:46 AM »
Dont fall for sceptis bullshit delfection.
He ll draw you in to explain conventional science.
Waste hrs and hrs.
Then dismiss it all.

Scepti cant even explain his "basic" and "simple" theory.

Ill repist my questions if he feels so confident.

And im equally as smug as your smugass sht.
Look at your use of nose-thumbed language when you position yourself as more intelligent.