HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)

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Unconvinced

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1470 on: November 05, 2019, 07:18:25 AM »

Throwing the medicine ball allows the atmosphere to create a barrier by the medicine ball and your energy compressing it. It creates a leverage.
If there was no atmosphere there would be no leverage and no opposite motion.

Wrong.

Instead of just making stuff up, have you considered learning how all this stuff really works?

It doesn’t just apply to rocketry, the same rules of motion, pressure systems, fluid dynamics, etc. were used to create all the modern technology around you.

Of course you don’t deny the existence of cars, aeroplanes, power stations, refrigerators, washing machines, etc, etc.  Yet they all depend on the same fundamental science as rockets do.

If you were right, then millions of physicists and engineers would be wrong and basically nothing would work.  Since things do work, we can safely assume that the people who actually bothered to study these things are right, and that you, spouting whatever pops into your head are wrong.

Try picking up a text book or do an online course.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1471 on: November 05, 2019, 07:27:22 AM »
It is far from nonsense.
Is that why you are completely unable to justify it in any way, nor answer very simple questions which show it to be wrong?
I do justify it. You not accepting that does not mean anything.

Quote from: JackBlack
How do you think you can compress air in the first place?
By reducing the volume. It is quite basic fluid mechanics.
You can't reduce a volume unless you reduce a container.
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.

I tried to explain this a while back by using sponge balls as a great analogy.
Get a container and feed sponge balls into it. The more effort you put in to compress, the smaller those sponge balls become and the more of them there is inside the container.

Quite simple really.


Quote from: JackBlack
The clue is in the word "compress" and you can't compress anything without making the molecules smaller.
And more nonsense.
You don't need to make the molecules smaller. All you need to do is reduce the space between them.
There is no space between them. Everything is attached. There is no space between anything. If there was we would not exist and nor would anything else...hence why space is nonsense.

Quote from: JackBlack
In fact, one of the limitations of the ideal gas law is that real gasses aren't ideal because they have a real, physical size of the atoms/molecules.
One of the drawbacks of this is that it can only be compressed to a certain extent before it becomes a liquid or a solid.
Anything compressed enough will become a liquid or a solid. Or a more dense liquid or a more dense solid....And so on.

Quote from: JackBlack
All the tank foundation is doing at this particular time is merely acting as a foundation.
Which is pushed by the molecules.
If it wasn't, the molecules can't push off it and thus can't expand.
The molecules do push but they push off each other.
Each molecule uses the one behind as leverage to push into the one in front...and so on all the way down to a point where compression to expansion does not overcome the resistance of external pressure/compressive resistance.
In the case of space and so called scattered molecules. It's nonsense..

Quote from: JackBlack
No. A bomb works because it is encased and creates an equal and opposite reaction to action inside the casing
Only while it is encased. As soon as it cracks, you have your opening and according to you, that should mean just free expansion with no work.
That would mean bombs should just push out air, never shrapnel.
A bomb will explode if it's encased and allows a burn expansion to shatter the shell which will allow that expansion to not only throw the casing a good distance but will also compress the atmosphere around it and create a massive wave/ripple effect not too dissimilar to throwing a big stone into a pond and seeing the circular ripple effect.

Quote from: JackBlack
Luckily there is resistance. It's called atmospheric pressure.
No, it's call the mass of the exhaust.
That needs a force to accelerate it.
That is the resistance that the rocket needs to push off.
No. The rocket cannot push off its own exhaust. It's exhaust has to hit a barrier. Atmospheric pressure creates this and allows the rocket to move away from it as it super compresses it by expansion which creates a super equal reaction to that action of a compressed force back and creating a perfect leverage..


Quote from: JackBlack
Remember, your entire objection is that you can't simply have the rocket push off nothing to move. That same applies to the gas inside the rocket.
You can't simply have it push off nothing to move.
It needs to push off something, which means it needs to push something.
Yep and atmospheric pressure provides this.

Quote from: JackBlack
Again, a rational line of reasoning goes like this:
The high pressure gas is exposed to a vacuum and thus will move to go into/towards the vacuum.
This means the gas is accelerating as it is changing its velocity.
This means it will need to have a force applied to it in order to accelerate.
This means it must push off something and apply a force to something.
The only available object is the rocket.
Nope. It's the actual gas itself being allowed to expand against a weaker resistant force. In this case it would be extreme low pressure.

Quote from: JackBlack
This means the gas must push off the rocket.
The atmosphere is the stalker against the flame throwing rocket trying to escape it but the atmosphere just keeps on coming back. End result is a perfect fight against equal and opposite reactions of gases. The rocket simply sits atop it all like a rising stick on a fountain.
Quote from: JackBlack
This means the rocket will be pushed by the expanding gas.
Think of it like this.
Imagine you are laid on the floor of a sky divers tube where air rushes in and pushes you up.
What are you doing?
You're not farting against it, you're just basically laying there and riding on that compressed air and the more compression of that air the higher you are pushed.
Now you can't argue that the air alone is keeping you aloft.
Now imagine of you decided to unleash the same amount of air from a tank on you. You add to the compressed air below you and are pushed up higher.
This is what's happening to the rocket.....except, if that rocket wants to advance it has to create a bigger uplift.
It does this by expanding the air to super compress the air around it and force it to rush in with much more strength...by burning the gas..


Quote from: JackBlack
This means that rockets MUST work in a vacuum.
That means that rockets cannot work well in extreme low pressure and absolutely not in a so called vacuum.

Quote from: JackBlack
Just which point do you disagree with here and why?
All of what you say.
Quote from: JackBlack
Do you claim a complete defiance of so much observed about gas and instead which to claim that even when exposed to a vacuum the gas will magically remain inside the tank?
Exposed to an extreme low pressure the compressed gas will decompress into that low pressure environment extremely fast due to very little resistive force against its expansion....until the molecules cannot expand into each other anymore....in which case they become dormant....or basically freeze.



Quote from: JackBlack
Do you claim that even though it is accelerating to move out of the rocket, it somehow isn't accelerating, a pure nonsense claim which contradicts itself? (The same applies to the last point)
Initially it would accelerate for a short period. But only against each other.
In a closed container they remain equally compressed.
Breach that container and the molecules closest to the breach will be the first to expand which allows the molecules behind to expand against the first by using the third as leverage....and so on and so on.
They all push out against whatever resistance is external to that breach.



Quote from: JackBlack
Do you claim that even though it is accelerating it doesn't need a force applied to it? Again, a complete defiance of physics, this time with what is known about motion. Perhaps more importantly, a key part of what you are relying upon to falsely assert that rockets can't work, as if objects (like gas) can accelerate without a force applied, why can't a rocket?
The force is the expansion and resistance to that expansion which is compression.
It's a like for like.
If the rocket turns liquid to gas and then to a burn, it's super expanding that fuel.
If the rocket does this against zero resistance to that expanding gas then the rocket goes nowhere.
However, there is always resistance, because atmospheric pressure creates that by being compressed against that expansion of gas/burn.

Quote from: JackBlack
The latter points (except the last) are quite similar, in that rejecting them means rejecting quite well established physics, backed up by mountains of evidence which you are relying upon to claim rockets can't work.
 If you reject any of them, it would mean that you are rejecting your arguments against rockets not being able to work.
Nope.
There are no mountains of evidence for what you're arguing for.
There's mountains of evidence that rockets fly. That's it.
There's zero provable real evidence they fly into space...but plenty of stories that they do.




Quote from: JackBlack
If you can't justify a problem with that line of reasoning, you have no case.
I think I've reasoned quite well and justified my reasoning.
I'm quite happy to accept you don't accept it.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1472 on: November 05, 2019, 07:39:41 AM »
Scepti has steered my previous ponts away from lackless.
Too bad.

But at least we have a new player.

So.
Explain this to us please.

If denpressure's underlying principle is that gravity doesnt exist ans the atmoplane pushes things down, then why do we see these two phenomena?:

1.  If the air above my head pushes me down with the weight of my weight, wouldnt my head hair (that which is of highest displacement on my body) be seen as perma-flattened?
No because your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.

Quote from: Themightykabool
2.  When air bubbles rise up in the water, are they flat on top?   Or flat on bottom?   The air bubble has a water column above it pushing down on it.  Water is a fluid and will have near similar push down properties (in behaviour) of the air in the atmoplane.
Not flat just slightly misshaped due to being squeezed up.

So whats pushing DOWN?

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1473 on: November 05, 2019, 07:41:07 AM »

The mass (medball) has to be ejected from the being or else there is no action-reaction.
If the skater does a throwing motion, but holds onto the ball, he goes no where.
Yes, if the skater holds onto the ball then the action and equal and opposite reaction comes into play, meaning an equal atmospheric reaction to the medicine ball in a push forward or push back = zero gain.

Throwing the medicine ball allows the atmosphere to create a barrier by the medicine ball and your energy compressing it. It creates a leverage.
If there was no atmosphere there would be no leverage and no opposite motion.

Quote from: Themightykabool
Ladder guy attempts to jump but ends up just moving his legs and goes no where - now if his legs detached while kicking, he would move.
Did the ladder collapse?

Quote from: Themightykabool
So now ill post the questions that  lackless refuses to answer, to you -
If you stood in front of lackless and he threw a med ball at your face, would that med ball create a push of air to push you back?
If you threw the medicine ball at me as I was stood at the end of a tube of dimensions that were just slightly larger than the medicine ball, then i'd likely have my head pushed back if you threw it hard enough, due to the air it compresses in that tube and the resulting air rush behind the medicine ball allowing it to create that compression by what it displaces of it's own mass of atmosphere.
The same would happen if you threw it at me in open air but the air hitting my face would be minimal due to the area allowing dissipation of the medicine ball's dense mass of air displacement.

Quote from: Themightykabool
What if it were a volleyball of similar dimension?
The volley ball would be extremely minimal due to it already being mostly air and a simple outer skin of dense mass....which....if you were to take away the air and mould it into a denser ball, it would likely be as small as a dogs rubber ball.

I would imagine then, by your description, bullets to have the same effect?
(Please dont try).

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1474 on: November 05, 2019, 07:43:04 AM »
Hence why the medicine ball on a skateboard works to push back a person who throws it against atmosphere and compresses that atmosphere with the amount of force the dense medicine ball can compress it, creating a spring back resistance back onto the person.

Henceforthwith, what am I, the wheeled medicine ball tosser compressing against? How is my tossing of the medicine ball somehow compressing the entire earth's atmosphere and pushing me back? Do I have that much of an effect on all things on the planet by just touching or tossing them?
It depends how you want to look at it.
Let's make this a bit more simple and I'll leave the rest to you to apply it to your thought bank.
If you were in a massive swimming pool would anything you do in that swimming pool effect the entire pool in some way?


Quote from: Stash
If I were inside a room, would I be 'compressing' off a wall?
Think of the swimming pool.
Quote from: Stash
If I were outside, would I be compressing off of a cloud?
When it's cloudy or clear does the air pressure change?

Quote from: Stash
How do you calculate this force, this 'compression' force? The springback, if you will.
It depends what needs to be calculated, whether it's compressing it or decompressing it.

 
Quote from: Stash
Your argument is woeful, suspect, and utterly incomprehensible. Try, much, much harder.
I'm doing just fine.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1475 on: November 05, 2019, 07:45:29 AM »
Scepti has steered my previous ponts away from lackless.
Too bad.

But at least we have a new player.

So.
Explain this to us please.

If denpressure's underlying principle is that gravity doesnt exist ans the atmoplane pushes things down, then why do we see these two phenomena?:

1.  If the air above my head pushes me down with the weight of my weight, wouldnt my head hair (that which is of highest displacement on my body) be seen as perma-flattened?
No because your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.
You do realize that there is already a word for dense mass displacing less dense atmosphere, don't you?  That word is "buoyancy".  It's a well understood phenomenon and it requires gravity so that the more dense mass knows which way to go.
Nothing requires gravity because gravity does not exist. I don't need to argue this point any further. Gravity does not exist to me and it's that simple, so by all means use it to argue a point but do not expect me to reply in any other way, except to dismiss it out of hand.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1476 on: November 05, 2019, 07:50:18 AM »

Throwing the medicine ball allows the atmosphere to create a barrier by the medicine ball and your energy compressing it. It creates a leverage.
If there was no atmosphere there would be no leverage and no opposite motion.

Wrong.

Instead of just making stuff up, have you considered learning how all this stuff really works?

It doesn’t just apply to rocketry, the same rules of motion, pressure systems, fluid dynamics, etc. were used to create all the modern technology around you.

Of course you don’t deny the existence of cars, aeroplanes, power stations, refrigerators, washing machines, etc, etc.  Yet they all depend on the same fundamental science as rockets do.

If you were right, then millions of physicists and engineers would be wrong and basically nothing would work.  Since things do work, we can safely assume that the people who actually bothered to study these things are right, and that you, spouting whatever pops into your head are wrong.

Try picking up a text book or do an online course.
If I picked up text books to absorb then I wouldn't be arguing these points. I'd be like you and simply accepting what I'm schooled into.
As for nothing working. Of course it would still work.

Certain stuff may not but then again certain stuff most likely doesn't and we're being duped, like nukes and what not.
No need to argue this here, I'm just saying.
It's all in the nuke thread.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1477 on: November 05, 2019, 07:53:31 AM »
Scepti has steered my previous ponts away from lackless.
Too bad.

But at least we have a new player.

So.
Explain this to us please.

If denpressure's underlying principle is that gravity doesnt exist ans the atmoplane pushes things down, then why do we see these two phenomena?:

1.  If the air above my head pushes me down with the weight of my weight, wouldnt my head hair (that which is of highest displacement on my body) be seen as perma-flattened?
No because your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.

Quote from: Themightykabool
2.  When air bubbles rise up in the water, are they flat on top?   Or flat on bottom?   The air bubble has a water column above it pushing down on it.  Water is a fluid and will have near similar push down properties (in behaviour) of the air in the atmoplane.
Not flat just slightly misshaped due to being squeezed up.

So whats pushing DOWN?
Water and atmospheric pressure upon that water.

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sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1478 on: November 05, 2019, 07:54:49 AM »


I would imagine then, by your description, bullets to have the same effect?
(Please dont try).
You need to explain what you mean by this before I could even attempt to reply.

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Yes

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1479 on: November 05, 2019, 08:28:46 AM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
Signatures are displayed at the bottom of each post or personal message. BBCode and smileys may be used in your signature.

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1480 on: November 05, 2019, 09:20:01 AM »
responding to your nonsense required use of a word processor...




I would imagine then, by your description, bullets to have the same effect?
(Please dont try).
You need to explain what you mean by this before I could even attempt to reply.



i mean by what you describe a ball, going down a tube and exiting the other side.
kind of like a bullet.


If you threw the medicine ball at me as I was stood at the end of a tube of dimensions that were just slightly larger than the medicine ball, then i'd likely have my head pushed back if you threw it hard enough, due to the air it compresses in that tube and the resulting air rush behind the medicine ball allowing it to create that compression by what it displaces of it's own mass of atmosphere.
The same would happen if you threw it at me in open air but the air hitting my face would be minimal due to the area allowing dissipation of the medicine ball's dense mass of air displacement.








your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.

"So whats pushing DOWN?" - Water and atmospheric pressure upon that water.


care to check back how your two statements conflict?
hells, your first statement conflicts with itself.

also, by your description, displacement of atmosphere has nothing to do with elevation?
because the hair is the highest point...

what if i jump?
then my whole body then has air all over it and under it.
will i stay in the air?

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Unconvinced

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1481 on: November 05, 2019, 09:38:35 AM »

If I picked up text books to absorb then I wouldn't be arguing these points. I'd be like you...

Someone who designs, builds, tests and manufactures pneumatic, airflow and pressure systems (amongst other things), you mean?

Quote
and simply accepting what I'm schooled into.

Nope.  Not how it works.  A large part of the schooling is verifying that these things do work like they are supposed to.

Quote
As for nothing working. Of course it would still work.

Wrong again.  So very wrong.  These aren’t obscure or advanced principles, but absolutely basic fundamentals of engineering.  We wouldn’t have had the industrial revolution without an understanding of them, let alone today’s technology.

Quote
Certain stuff may not but then again certain stuff most likely doesn't and we're being duped, like nukes and what not.

We definitely wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Funny how flat earthers use the technology science provides for them to “research” and spread the idea that science is duping us, isn’t it? 

Maybe you consider a life of subsistence farming with no power and no flushing toilets?  That at least would be consistent with your respect for science.

Quote
No need to argue this here, I'm just saying.
It's all in the nuke thread.

Probably best I don’t look at it then. 

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Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1482 on: November 05, 2019, 09:51:59 AM »




I tried to explain this a while back by using sponge balls as a great analogy.
Get a container and feed sponge balls into it. The more effort you put in to compress, the smaller those sponge balls become and the more of them there is inside the container.

Quite simple really.


I think I've reasoned quite well and justified my reasoning.
I'm quite happy to accept you don't accept it.

and you would be mistaken with all of it.
it is not a great analogy and you've done an extremely poor show of reason, math and use of the english language in general.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1483 on: November 05, 2019, 12:57:47 PM »
All of it.
i.e. you can't find a problem with any of it so you dismiss it all outright?
You even reject the gas leaving the rocket.
So now you say that the gas will remain inside the rocket, even when exposed to vacuum or extreme low pressure?author=sceptimatic link=topic=82434.msg2213997#msg2213997 date=1572962597]
No because your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.
[/quote]
i.e. when we jump we shouldn't be pushed down. We should continue floating up or merely be stopped. Because when we are in mid-air, we have air all over and under us.
And of course, if we go up against a wall, then we should be pushed into that as there isn't the air between us and it. If you say there is still a small amount there to stop it, well don't worry, there is also that between us and the ground, so either it doesn't matter or we shouldn't be pushed to the ground either.

Lets try and keep this discussion to rockets, not your refuted denspressure nonsense.

Throwing the medicine ball allows the atmosphere to create a barrier by the medicine ball and your energy compressing it.
If the air was important you would get the same effect regardless of the mass of the ball. That is not observed.

If there was no atmosphere there would be no leverage and no opposite motion.
So the ball just magically moves away?
But how does that work?
What leverage is there for the ball to push against.
You seem to want to apply your nonsense one way only.
If what you are saying is true, and you need the air to push against, then the ball does not have the air to push against with the human and thus it will go nowhere.

The volley ball would be extremely minimal due to it already being mostly air
That doesn't matter, it still pushes the same amount of air. You can confirm this by pushing them through a tube which has the same radius as the ball, or just slightly larger.
The volume is what is important if it is pushing the air. The mass is what is important if the air has nothing (or very little) to do with it.

I do justify it.
You are yet to justify it in any way. The closest you have come to any justification is repeatedly contradicting yourself as you try to explain different things.

You pretending you have justified it does not mean anything.

To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
Repeating the same nonsense and ignoring the explaining that that is blatantly wrong wont help you.
When you compress air you are not compressing the molecules, you are removing part of the void between them.
While each molecule has on average less space, the physical size of the molecules is not shrinking.

An actual analogy would be balls on a pool table. If you shrink the size of the pool table, but keep the same balls on it, you are compressing the gas. It is the empty space between the balls that shrink, not the balls themselves.

Importantly there is a limit to how far you can shrink it. If you shrink it too much you then end up with no more space between the balls at which point you will have compressed it into a liquid and are unable to compress any more.

This is what happens in reality.

If it was just magically compressing molecules, this limit should not exist and you should be able to keep compressing it with it never becoming a liquid.

I tried to explain this a while back by using sponge balls as a great analogy.
By using a completely incorrect analogy.

Note that even with your sponge balls you are still removing the air.
What you are actually doing is changing the shape of the sponge balls so the air is removed from the inside of them.


There is no space between them.
And that remains yet another baseless assertion from you.
You are yet to justify this in any way. You are yet to refute the abundant evidence which shows you are wrong.

Anything compressed enough will become a liquid or a solid.
Only if you accept that you are excluding the free space between the molecules.
If you claim that everything is already connected, then there should be no difference between a liquid and a gas, and no clear boundary.
But that isn't the case.
There is a clear boundary between liquids and gases.
They are very clearly different.

Do you know the distinguishing feature of liquids and gasses?
Gases have a large space between the molecules.

The molecules do push but they push off each other.
And they push off the molecules of the rocket.

Each molecule uses the one behind as leverage to push into the one in front...and so on
i.e. the molecules at the opening of the container push against the molecules next to them as leverage.
Those then push against the ones next to them, and so on.
Eventually this goes all the way down to the rocket, where the molecules against the rocket push against it as leverage.
But then the rocket has no leverage to stop that push and thus gets pushed by those molecules.
In effect all the molecules in the middle are just acting as force carriers. You effectively have the gas molecules at the edge pushing through the intermediary molecules against the rocket.

This means the rocket goes one way, the gas goes the other.

So even using that line of reasoning, ROCKETS STILL WORK!

The only alternative is for there to be nothing to push against and thus the rocket and gas remains where it is.
That means you have compressed gas exposed to a vacuum, doing nothing.

A bomb will explode if it's encased and allows a burn expansion to shatter the shell which will allow that expansion to not only throw the casing a good distance
How?
It is not open. Why doesn't the gas just flow the crack?
The exact same situation is happening with the rocket.
Consider this hypothetical rocket:
You have an explosive contained in a chamber.
You detonate it.
This causes one end of the container to break open. What happens?

Does the air just leak out the crack, or does it force the container away?

No. The rocket cannot push off its own exhaust.
Why not?
You are perfectly happy with objects pushing off the air/gas.
The exhaust is gas. That means that the rocket can push off it.
If they can't, then that rules out all your claims about air.

Yep and atmospheric pressure provides this.
What atmospheric pressure?
We are talking about the rocket in a vacuum.
The only pressure (that is significant) is the air inside the rocket. The air you are claiming the rocket CANNOT push against.

What is there for the air to push off to be able to leave the rocket?

Nope. It's the actual gas itself being allowed to expand
As I stated before, it is only allowed to expand in one direction. This means its expansion will push the object trying to stop it out of the way, just like a bomb.

Quote from: JackBlack
This means the gas must push off the rocket.
The atmosphere
Again, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A ROCKET IN A VACUUM!
There is no atmosphere.
What is the gas pushing off?

Imagine you are laid on the floor of a sky divers tube where air rushes in and pushes you up.
The closest this has to do with what we are disucssing is that the is air that is compressed below you, with this compressed air pushing you up.
Guess what is inside a rocket?
Compressed air, which by the same reasoning pushes the rocket.


Quote from: JackBlack
Just which point do you disagree with here and why?
All of what you say.
So you reject the idea that gasses will equalise in pressure and instead claim that the gas will remain inside the rocket even when directly exposed to a vacuum/extreme low pressure?

Because it sure seems like you are agreeing with it.
You agree that the gas leaves the rocket.
You agree that this means the gas is accelerating.
You agree that this means that it is pushing against something. Where it is initially the gas next to it which pushes off the gas next to it and so on, until you reach the rocket with the gas pushing against the rocket.

So you are agreeing that the gas is pushing off the rocket, using the rocket as leverage.

This means the rocket is being pushed. So why doesn't it move?

If the rocket does this against zero resistance
You can never have 0 resistance. The gas itself provides resistance.

There are no mountains of evidence for what you're arguing for.
There's mountains of evidence that rockets fly. That's it.
This isn't just discussing rockets. It is very simple physics. Newton's laws of motion.
Action-reaction, etc.
Remember, without these laws you have no reason to say the rocket needs to push off anything to work.
That is entirely based upon the need for it to have a force to accelerate it, with that force requiring it to apply a force to another object and have an equal and opposite force applied to it.

I think I've reasoned quite well and justified my reasoning.
No, you have just repeatedly avoided the issues and contradicted yourself like you do so often.

You are yet to show a single problem with the line of reasoning I provided.
Instead you just stated you reject all of it (without showing any problem), and then proceeded to agree to basically every point.

I'd be like you and simply accepting what I'm schooled into.
It has nothing to do with just accepting what we have been schooled into.
If we were going to do that we would just accept your nonsense.

It has to do with being able to explain reality, including everyday observations, and thus if it is backed up by evidence or not.
What they teach in school is capable of explaining reality and is backed up by evidence. Your nonsense is not. Your nonsense contradicts itself.

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JackBlack

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1484 on: November 05, 2019, 01:03:42 PM »
And if all of that is too long, this is the key issue for this thread:

You have a simple rocket that looks like this:

The black is the body of the rocket: Note that it is open at one end.
The red is the high pressure gas inside the rocket.

Now, looking at the left edge of the rocket, it is pushing against the high pressure gas next to it. Can it move as it has this gas to push off? Or can it not, because it would just push against the gas and so on until it got to the other side where there is nothing to push against?

Before answering, we are also looking at the gas at the right edge. It is pushing against the high pressure gas next to it. Can it move as it has this gas to push off? Or can it not, because it would just push against the gas and so on until it got to the other side where there is nothing to push against?

Note: These are of the same form. Either both can move, or neither can.
Which is it?
Can the gas leave the rocket with the rocket being pushed away?
Or are they stuck together because there is nothing to push against?

If you wish to disagree you need to be able to explain why.
Why should the gas be able to leave the rocket when it has nothing to push against (other than the rocket), while the rocket can't leave the gas?

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markjo

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1485 on: November 05, 2019, 02:35:05 PM »
Scepti has steered my previous ponts away from lackless.
Too bad.

But at least we have a new player.

So.
Explain this to us please.

If denpressure's underlying principle is that gravity doesnt exist ans the atmoplane pushes things down, then why do we see these two phenomena?:

1.  If the air above my head pushes me down with the weight of my weight, wouldnt my head hair (that which is of highest displacement on my body) be seen as perma-flattened?
No because your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.
You do realize that there is already a word for dense mass displacing less dense atmosphere, don't you?  That word is "buoyancy".  It's a well understood phenomenon and it requires gravity so that the more dense mass knows which way to go.
Nothing requires gravity because gravity does not exist. I don't need to argue this point any further. Gravity does not exist to me and it's that simple, so by all means use it to argue a point but do not expect me to reply in any other way, except to dismiss it out of hand.
Do you think that buoyancy exists or do you dismiss that out of hand too?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1486 on: November 05, 2019, 02:37:09 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1487 on: November 05, 2019, 02:39:53 PM »
responding to your nonsense required use of a word processor...




I would imagine then, by your description, bullets to have the same effect?
(Please dont try).
You need to explain what you mean by this before I could even attempt to reply.



i mean by what you describe a ball, going down a tube and exiting the other side.
kind of like a bullet.


If you threw the medicine ball at me as I was stood at the end of a tube of dimensions that were just slightly larger than the medicine ball, then i'd likely have my head pushed back if you threw it hard enough, due to the air it compresses in that tube and the resulting air rush behind the medicine ball allowing it to create that compression by what it displaces of it's own mass of atmosphere.
The same would happen if you threw it at me in open air but the air hitting my face would be minimal due to the area allowing dissipation of the medicine ball's dense mass of air displacement.








your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.

"So whats pushing DOWN?" - Water and atmospheric pressure upon that water.


care to check back how your two statements conflict?
hells, your first statement conflicts with itself.

also, by your description, displacement of atmosphere has nothing to do with elevation?
because the hair is the highest point...

what if i jump?
then my whole body then has air all over it and under it.
will i stay in the air?
You either refuse to understand it or can't. Which one is it?

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1488 on: November 05, 2019, 02:46:29 PM »
And if all of that is too long, this is the key issue for this thread:

You have a simple rocket that looks like this:

The black is the body of the rocket: Note that it is open at one end.
The red is the high pressure gas inside the rocket.

Now, looking at the left edge of the rocket, it is pushing against the high pressure gas next to it. Can it move as it has this gas to push off? Or can it not, because it would just push against the gas and so on until it got to the other side where there is nothing to push against?

Before answering, we are also looking at the gas at the right edge. It is pushing against the high pressure gas next to it. Can it move as it has this gas to push off? Or can it not, because it would just push against the gas and so on until it got to the other side where there is nothing to push against?

Note: These are of the same form. Either both can move, or neither can.
Which is it?
Can the gas leave the rocket with the rocket being pushed away?
Or are they stuck together because there is nothing to push against?

If you wish to disagree you need to be able to explain why.
Why should the gas be able to leave the rocket when it has nothing to push against (other than the rocket), while the rocket can't leave the gas?
I'll draw a diagram sometime tomorrow showing you what I mean about how the rocket really works. The diagram may be crude but it'll make a point from my side and it's entirely up to you how you view it.
Maybe the one's that really count will view it and understand it.

*

Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1489 on: November 05, 2019, 02:47:39 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

How does heat work?

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1490 on: November 05, 2019, 02:47:49 PM »

Do you think that buoyancy exists or do you dismiss that out of hand too?
You can call it buoyancy if you want as long as you leave out the fictional stuff like gravity. If you can't then I simply refute it and use my own version.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1491 on: November 05, 2019, 02:48:22 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

How does heat work?
Molecular friction/vibration.

?

Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1492 on: November 05, 2019, 02:48:52 PM »
You were asked to provide an intelligent diagram of how atmoplane pushes me down when i stand in my house.
Still yet to see...

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1493 on: November 05, 2019, 02:51:26 PM »
You were asked to provide an intelligent diagram of how atmoplane pushes me down when i stand in my house.
Still yet to see...
You were provided with one. You refused to grasp it which is down to you, not me.
Asking me to provide again will gain you very little response.
The fact you refuse to look at it gains you nothing on the whole.

*

Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1494 on: November 05, 2019, 02:51:38 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

How does heat work?
Molecular friction/vibration.

How does a beer put in the freezer for too long, freeze, expand and burst?

*

markjo

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1495 on: November 05, 2019, 02:52:33 PM »

Do you think that buoyancy exists or do you dismiss that out of hand too?
You can call it buoyancy if you want as long as you leave out the fictional stuff like gravity. If you can't then I simply refute it and use my own version.
Buoyancy says that more dense things tend to sink into and below less dense things.  Do you agree with that?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1496 on: November 05, 2019, 02:54:43 PM »
responding to your nonsense required use of a word processor...




I would imagine then, by your description, bullets to have the same effect?
(Please dont try).
You need to explain what you mean by this before I could even attempt to reply.



i mean by what you describe a ball, going down a tube and exiting the other side.
kind of like a bullet.


If you threw the medicine ball at me as I was stood at the end of a tube of dimensions that were just slightly larger than the medicine ball, then i'd likely have my head pushed back if you threw it hard enough, due to the air it compresses in that tube and the resulting air rush behind the medicine ball allowing it to create that compression by what it displaces of it's own mass of atmosphere.
The same would happen if you threw it at me in open air but the air hitting my face would be minimal due to the area allowing dissipation of the medicine ball's dense mass of air displacement.








your hair sort equalises  because atmosphere is all over and under it, unlike your dense body which is pushing into atmosphere by it's own dense mass and also that same dense mass displacing that amount of atmosphere.

"So whats pushing DOWN?" - Water and atmospheric pressure upon that water.


care to check back how your two statements conflict?
hells, your first statement conflicts with itself.

also, by your description, displacement of atmosphere has nothing to do with elevation?
because the hair is the highest point...

what if i jump?
then my whole body then has air all over it and under it.
will i stay in the air?
You either refuse to understand it or can't. Which one is it?

Oh i understand it.
I am smart.
You dont seem to undersrand your own theory.

The hair is has air all around it so it stays up.
If i jump, i have air all around me - should i stay up?

But you claim Air pushes things down.
If its pushing from the top, my hair will be flattened.
Is it?

You claim air is stacked sponges upon spongese in a long chain all the way up to the ice dome.
Yet the air somehow disconndcts when it decides my hair is not part of my body?

Air is displaced in all directions?
So how does that equate to a total net down direction?


?

Themightykabool

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1497 on: November 05, 2019, 02:56:30 PM »
You were asked to provide an intelligent diagram of how atmoplane pushes me down when i stand in my house.
Still yet to see...
You were provided with one. You refused to grasp it which is down to you, not me.
Asking me to provide again will gain you very little response.
The fact you refuse to look at it gains you nothing on the whole.

You drew a house.
With a line on each side that said "denpressure".
Great theory.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1498 on: November 05, 2019, 02:59:03 PM »


How does a beer put in the freezer for too long, freeze, expand and burst?
Not sure what you're getting at here.

*

Stash

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Re: HAPPY HOAX ANNIVERSARY!!! (Rockets can't fly in a vacuum)
« Reply #1499 on: November 05, 2019, 03:03:21 PM »
To compress air you are simply compressing the molecules into smaller size due to that crushing force.
;D


Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the space between molecules?
There is no space.

How does heat work?
Molecular friction/vibration.

Friction & vibration are movements. Movements require space within which to move. Ergo, there is space between molecules.