Time Zones Don't Exist (globe time system is messed up)

For globe model it's supposed to be so. But reality says there is no pure alignment between time and sun position, even on equator at equinox.

No it isn't supposed to be. It is supposed to be an approximation, with governments free to make it offset if they want to.

The alignment will also shift during the year, as I pointed out before. The elliptical orbit and axial tilt will cause it to vary throughout the year.
This means the locations where the solar time aligns with the the local time/time zone will vary over time.
I have shown examples where it will line up at a particular day.

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 22, 2019, 12:36:13 PM

Danag already previously admitted he thought crossing a timezone would literally mean time had elapsed.
Seriously.
This is who youre arguing with.

Really?

didn't you?
I thought you had.
if not i apologize.
But ok let's double check then.

if on a plane, you fly from New York City to Seattle.
You cross 3 time zones.
if you had a stop watch, started it when you left NYC, would you expect 3hrs of travel should be added to the total?

Quote from: Danang on July 24, 2019, 01:31:04 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 22, 2019, 12:36:13 PM

Danag already previously admitted he thought crossing a timezone would literally mean time had elapsed.
Seriously.
This is who youre arguing with.

Really?

didn't you?
I thought you had.
if not i apologize.
But ok let's double check then.

if on a plane, you fly from New York City to Seattle.
You cross 3 time zones.
if you had a stop watch, started it when you left NYC, would you expect 3hrs of travel should be added to the total?

A new born baby can answer that..  Hahaha...

Quote from: Danang on July 24, 2019, 01:22:48 AM

For globe model it's supposed to be so. But reality says there is no pure alignment between time and sun position, even on equator at equinox.

No it isn't supposed to be. It is supposed to be an approximation, with governments free to make it offset if they want to.

The alignment will also shift during the year, as I pointed out before. The elliptical orbit and axial tilt will cause it to vary throughout the year.
This means the locations where the solar time aligns with the the local time/time zone will vary over time.
I have shown examples where it will line up at a particular day.

So sorry, I didn't concentrate when typing the post.
Generally, globe model cannot answer such observation.

Generally, globe model cannot answer such observation.

Why not?
It matches quite well with what the globe model predicts.

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 24, 2019, 02:57:47 PM

Quote from: Danang on July 24, 2019, 01:31:04 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 22, 2019, 12:36:13 PM

Danag already previously admitted he thought crossing a timezone would literally mean time had elapsed.
Seriously.
This is who youre arguing with.

Really?

didn't you?
I thought you had.
if not i apologize.
But ok let's double check then.

if on a plane, you fly from New York City to Seattle.
You cross 3 time zones.
if you had a stop watch, started it when you left NYC, would you expect 3hrs of travel should be added to the total?

A new born baby can answer that..  Hahaha...

and the answer is...?

If it is any help in explaining time zones, here is a example of part of a trip I have taken many times.

I leave Amarillo, Texas at 12:00 Noon, Central Standard Time
I reset the trip odometer on my car to 0.0 miles
The travel distance between Amarillo, Texas and the Glenrio, New Mexico Visitor Center at the Texas-New Mexico State Line is 72.7 Miles and the travel time is 1 Hour, 7 minutes
I arrive at the Travel Center at 1:07 PM Central Standard Time
As I am entering the Mountain Standard Time Zone going west, I set my watch back 1 hour to 12:07 PM Mountain Standard Time
The travel distance between the Visitor Center and Tucumcari, New Mexico is 40.4 miles and the travel time is 39 minutes
I arrive at Tucumcari at 12:46 PM Mountain Standard Time
I have traveled a  total of 113.1 Miles and my total time travel time has been 1 hour and 46 minutes from Amarillo to Tucumcari.

Going east or west, the actual travel distance  (113.1 Miles) and the actual travel time ( 1 hour and 46 minutes )} would always be the same.

But going east , I would set my watch ahead 1 hour at the state line.
If I left Tucumcari at 12:00 Noon Mountain Standard Time , I would arrive at the Visitor Center at 12:39 PM Mountain Standard Time and set my watch ahead 1 hour to 1:39 PM Central Standard Time entering Texas  and arrive at Amarillo at 2:46 PM Central Standard Time.



I hope this might explain how time zones work on an actual trip.
If it didn't just muddy up the waters, my apologies.  :-)

Source for distances and times from "distances between us cities " website

I might add that somewhere, and at some location and at some time, solar time and standard time in that time zone agree....Thanks, JackBlack !  :-)

Most people know.
Just wondering if danag knows.
In a prrvipus post he complained that a flight went for hrs and hrs but the time of arrival seemingly didnt change.

Most people know.
Just wondering if danag knows.
In a prrvipus post he complained that a flight went for hrs and hrs but the time of arrival seemingly didnt change.

The actual flight time, or road time, or however you travel that it takes to go from one point to another doesn't change whether you flew, drove or walked.
But the clock time would change depending on how many time zones you passed between those points and which way you were going
- east or west -  as shown in the examples in my previous post.

Yes
We know.
Not sure if danag knows.
Please confirm, danang.

I΄d say smart phones are your best bet if you get confused with time zones and you don΄t know where you are, what time is it or where is the next bar.

OMFG people.
thank you for all your input but i'm trying to confirm if danang knows how it works.

Quote from: Danang on July 24, 2019, 10:21:33 PM

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 24, 2019, 02:57:47 PM

Quote from: Danang on July 24, 2019, 01:31:04 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on July 22, 2019, 12:36:13 PM

Danag already previously admitted he thought crossing a timezone would literally mean time had elapsed.
Seriously.
This is who youre arguing with.

Really?

didn't you?
I thought you had.
if not i apologize.
But ok let's double check then.

if on a plane, you fly from New York City to Seattle.
You cross 3 time zones.
if you had a stop watch, started it when you left NYC, would you expect 3hrs of travel should be added to the total?

A new born baby can answer that..  Hahaha...

and the answer is...?

"Coba kita bertanya pada rumput yang bergoyang"

"Let's ask to the swaying grass"

~ Ebiet G Ade ~ (Berita Kepada Kawan)

Quote from: JackBlack on July 18, 2019, 02:24:07 PM

No, they do exist.
I can attest to that from first hand experience travelling over seas and needing to change my watch/phone over, as well noticing the sun is up at a completely different time.

I can also attest to it with skype calls to people over seas, and with computers needing time zones to accurately tell the time.

Quote from: Danang on July 18, 2019, 05:56:17 AM

Solar time zones ain't exist. Unless the watches are set up with changing speeds over time all the time. 

No, solar time does exit.
The fact that watches don't follow it exactly is irrelevant.

A time zone for a region will roughly match solar time. But so there aren't billions of different time zones, it will not match perfectly.
It wont drift to follow the sun over the course of the year other than as an adjustment for daylight savings time, which doesn't even follow solar noon.
It wont vary as you move each meter east or west either.

Solar time zone exists but it cannot indicate the time petfectly.

As has been explained in another post,  at some time and at some location within a  time zone solar time and time zone agree perfectly.
And, I should hope by now that danang realizes that time zones DO exist.

International time zones work fine, just ask the millions of air passengers and crew who fly between them every day of the year. If there were a problem I think someone would have noticed.
https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/world-time-zones.html

International time zones work fine, just ask the millions of air passengers and crew who fly between them every day of the year. If there were a problem I think someone would have noticed.
https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/world-time-zones.html

They work just fine, too, for those who travel by sea or land .

Quote from: Lonegranger on July 27, 2019, 03:46:09 PM

International time zones work fine, just ask the millions of air passengers and crew who fly between them every day of the year. If there were a problem I think someone would have noticed.
https://www.countries-ofthe-world.com/world-time-zones.html

They work just fine, too, for those who travel by sea or land .

That just means that the whole world is part of the conspiracy (well, except the 4-5 flat earther here who are to woke). Wake up!

If time zones don't exist, it would be day for everyone on Earth or night. TF?

I went on a flight to Dallas recently, 3 hours flight. The plane departed then landed like an "hour" (can't remember the EXACT times) later because of the time difference from where I live on the west coast to Dallas. Hope that's not confusing I don't think I explained that well.

Solar time zones ain't exist. Unless the watches are set up with changing speeds over time all the time. 

Things alter through time. Allow moments to coagulate into news worthy snippets.

My main point is:

In equinox, there is no alignment between the sun positions and its supposedly time.

Therefore, the globe model is irrelevant.

Quote from: Danang on July 18, 2019, 05:56:17 AM

Solar time zones ain't exist. Unless the watches are set up with changing speeds over time all the time. 

Things alter through time. Allow moments to coagulate into news worthy snippets.

What snippets are they?

In equinox, there is no alignment between the sun positions and its supposedly time.

No, there is alignment, it just isn't perfect.

As time zones are wide and based upon political borders and for ease of conversion are typically in 1 hour increments, they will not magically line up all across the time zone.
At best you get a single line of longitude having it line up.

The location that lines up will also drift throughout the year, and as far as time zones are concerned, the equinox is not special, especially as there are 2 of them, and the sun isn't in the same location for both.

Here is a diagram of an analemma, showing the position of the sun at noon (time zone based, without daylight savings) over a year.

Which point in this diagram do you think should line up, and why?

The only way in which this has anything to do with RE vs FE is that with the simplest FE models there is only a single time zone.

So no, this doesn't show any problem with the globe.

In fact, this variation over the year (which does happen) is predicted by the current scientific model of the universe.

No, there is alignment, it just isn't perfect.

One hour sun delay on northern hemiplane is kinda "offside" for the globe model. The delay is too long time.

One hour sun delay on northern hemiplane is kinda "offside" for the globe model. The delay is too long time.

Where?
Have you seen what the globe model predicts and how that compares to the time zone and reality?
Chances are it is just the time zone is off, likely for political reasons.

Copenhagen's next equinox on September 2019: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/denmark/copenhagen?month=9&year=2019

Copenhagen's next equinox on September 2019: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/denmark/copenhagen?month=9&year=2019

So not where the delay is off?
Where they use DST to artificially offset the time?
Again, nothing wrong with RE here.

The sun delay is the evidence.

I realise I'm a bit late to this party, but could someone please explain a) what delay? b) what do time zones have to do with equinoxes?

We're talking about delayed equinox by the sound of it. So...

September Equinox in Longyearbyen, Svalbard, Norway (very far north) is on Monday, 23 September 2019, 09:50 CEST or Monday, 23 September 2019, 07:50 UTC if you prefer.

September Equinox in Copenhagen, Denmark is on Monday, 23 September 2019, 09:50 CEST (07:50 UTC).

September Equinox in Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego, Argentina (way down south) is on Monday, 23 September 2019, 04:50 ART (07:50 UTC).

(Source: https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/autumnal-equinox.html)

So according to time & date, the equinox occurs at 07:50 UTC everywhere and because we have time zones and DST, the local times differ from UTC. We do all trust time & date don't we, I thought even FLErfers did?

Am I missing something?

Am I missing something?

It isn't about the equinox directly, it is about local time vs solar time.
A simple part of that to focus on is solar noon.
If the time zones matched perfectly (which is impossible, except for specific locations at specific times)), then solar noon would occur at noon, or if you don't have that data, then sunrise would be x hours before noon and sunset would be that same x hours after noon.
But for Copenhagen, sunrise is roughly 7 am, 5 hours before noon, while sunset is 7 pm, roughly 7 hours after noon. Solar noon is at roughly 1 pm.

The local time, based upon the time zone, is 1 hour ahead of solar time.
That is what he is complaining about.
However, this is to be expected, considering they have daylight savings time, which puts the clocks 1 hour ahead.

Quote from: robinofloxley on August 05, 2019, 04:21:09 AM

Am I missing something?

It isn't about the equinox directly, it is about local time vs solar time.
A simple part of that to focus on is solar noon.
If the time zones matched perfectly (which is impossible, except for specific locations at specific times)), then solar noon would occur at noon, or if you don't have that data, then sunrise would be x hours before noon and sunset would be that same x hours after noon.
But for Copenhagen, sunrise is roughly 7 am, 5 hours before noon, while sunset is 7 pm, roughly 7 hours after noon. Solar noon is at roughly 1 pm.

The local time, based upon the time zone, is 1 hour ahead of solar time.
That is what he is complaining about.
However, this is to be expected, considering they have daylight savings time, which puts the clocks 1 hour ahead.

Ok, got it, thanks, so Danang thinks noon local time should equal local solar noon for anywhere across an entire time zone. Wow that's a strange idea.

Ok, got it, thanks, so Danang thinks noon local time should equal local solar noon for anywhere across an entire time zone. Wow that's a strange idea.

Not only that but he also seems to think it should match for the entire year.

Even though Earth's elliptical orbit will cause some solar days to be shorter than others, due to the change in apparent speed of the sun as our orbital speed varies, and Earth's axial tilt causing the sun to not always move east to west, thus affecting its east to west motion as well and also causing a variation in the length of the solar day.