How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface

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fjr66

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How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« on: July 17, 2019, 06:17:33 AM »
Suppose earth surface can drag athmosphere layer above it so it have similar tangetial velocity. But it is still can't have the same angular velocity because it have different distance from the center. So as the distance (altitude) increased, the lag between earth surface and athmospheric  layer above it also increased  as the earth rotated. So athmospheric layer spiraling  out from the earth surface. So why the clound stand still above us and never went to the wast as the earth rotated to the east?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:38:07 AM by fjr66 »

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sokarul

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2019, 06:27:10 AM »
When a solid rotates in a fluid, the fluid will move with the solid.
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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2019, 06:33:38 AM »
Suppose earth surface can drag athmosphere layer above it so it have similar tangetial velocity. But it is still can't have the same angular velocity because it have different distance from the center. So as the distance (altitude) increased, the larger lag between earth surface and athmospheric layer above it as the earth rotated. So athmospheric layer spiraling  out from the earth surface. So why the clound stand still above us and never went to the wast as the earth rotated to the east?

No, if two points at different distances from the center complete a rotation in the same period, their angular velocity would be the same.

Their tangential velocities are different. The "spiraling out" that you mention is why this doesn't happen... the shear between lower and higher parts of atmosphere that this would entail would cause the upper parts to speed up to reduce the shear until it is gone.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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fjr66

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2019, 06:37:43 AM »
the shear between lower and higher parts of atmosphere that this would entail would cause the upper parts to speed up to reduce the shear until it is gone.
So the athmosphere have rigidity too? I thought it is just a drag force?

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fjr66

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2019, 06:50:59 AM »
the shear between lower and higher parts of atmosphere that this would entail would cause the upper parts to speed up to reduce the shear until it is gone.
So the athmosphere have rigidity too? I thought it is just a drag force?

Elastic collision between air particle just conserved the velocity between it before and after the collision. So why upper athmosphere have a higher velocity?

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Macarios

  • 1790
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2019, 08:40:38 AM »
Suppose earth surface can drag athmosphere layer above it so it have similar tangetial velocity. But it is still can't have the same angular velocity because it have different distance from the center. So as the distance (altitude) increased, the lag between earth surface and athmospheric it layer above also increased  as the earth rotated. So athmospheric layer spiraling  out from the earth surface. So why the clound stand still above us and never went to the wast as the earth rotated to the east?

The angular speed of the Earth is constant.
Air drag (friction inside gasses) will bring all layers of the atmosphere to the same angular speed as the rest.
What is different is tangential speed, not the angular speed.

The atmosphere is an integral part of the planet.
Only thermal movements inside remain.
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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2019, 01:56:57 PM »
No, the point of contact will have the same angular velocity.
As you move further out, friction between the gas will cause it to also rotate at the same velocity.

If you have a solid body rotating with a fluid around it (without anything else) then it will all rotate at the same angular velocity.

If this wasn't the case then there would be relative motion between the 2 layers and thus friction to cause the faster layer to slow down and the slower layer to speed up.


Of course, in reality it is more complex as there are perturbing factors which generate things like wind.

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Macarios

  • 1790
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2019, 05:49:00 PM »
Everything goes together at the same RPM as a compact chunk (disregarding thermal turbulences), except the thin layers above 200 km altitude.
They go faster.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-does-the-atmosphere-rotate-with-the-earth/
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When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
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Danang

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2019, 10:47:12 PM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels
TRY: Phew = 3.17157 (for 1D) and (Curved Grided) South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map and Downwards Universal Deceleration (DUD).

Phew's Silicon Valley : https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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Stash

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2019, 11:19:29 PM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels

Why?

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Danang

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  • Everything will be "Phew" in its time :')
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2019, 11:26:57 PM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels

Why?

Rationality urges them to hold such belief.
If it's true that in airplane there is a device for maintaining the altitude based on earth's curvature, the same case will apply for a solid flying body within cloud, otherwise those clouds will look going higher and higher.
TRY: Phew = 3.17157 (for 1D) and (Curved Grided) South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map and Downwards Universal Deceleration (DUD).

Phew's Silicon Valley : https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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Stash

  • 3486
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2019, 11:35:15 PM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels

Why?

Rationality urges them to hold such belief.
If it's true that in airplane there is a device for maintaining the altitude based on earth's curvature, the same case will apply for a solid flying body within cloud, otherwise those clouds will look going higher and higher.

Every cloud has it's own auto-pilot device installed?

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Danang

  • 3361
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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2019, 12:20:32 AM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels

Why?

Rationality urges them to hold such belief.
If it's true that in airplane there is a device for maintaining the altitude based on earth's curvature, the same case will apply for a solid flying body within cloud, otherwise those clouds will look going higher and higher.

Every cloud has it's own auto-pilot device installed?

Either auto-pilot or manually, if the earth was really round, there should be such navigating system.

To me the earth is flat, navigating system in cloud exists, and no need for curvature based maintaining altitude system.

They are free -as commanded- to drive the cloud aircraft whereever it goes or how height it flies, similar to helicopter or airplane pilots that navigate their aircrafts as they wish.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 12:23:17 AM by Danang »
TRY: Phew = 3.17157 (for 1D) and (Curved Grided) South Pole Centered FE Map AKA Phew FE Map and Downwards Universal Deceleration (DUD).

Phew's Silicon Valley : https://gwebanget.home.blog/

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fjr66

  • 123
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2019, 01:13:20 AM »
If you have a solid body rotating with a fluid around it (without anything else) then it will all rotate at the same angular velocity.

If this wasn't the case then there would be relative motion between the 2 layers and thus friction to cause the faster layer to slow down and the slower layer to speed up.
Friction in gas means there is elastic collision between molecules particle constitute it. But elastic collision just maintain velocity, does not make it increased.

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fjr66

  • 123
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2019, 01:24:39 AM »
Suppose earth surface can drag athmosphere layer above it so it have similar tangetial velocity. But it is still can't have the same angular velocity because it have different distance from the center. So as the distance (altitude) increased, the lag between earth surface and athmospheric it layer above also increased  as the earth rotated. So athmospheric layer spiraling  out from the earth surface. So why the clound stand still above us and never went to the wast as the earth rotated to the east?

The angular speed of the Earth is constant.
Air drag (friction inside gasses) will bring all layers of the atmosphere to the same angular speed as the rest.
What is different is tangential speed, not the angular speed.

The atmosphere is an integral part of the planet.
Only thermal movements inside remain.

The same angular speed means every particle in gas have a constant distance or it have rigidity. But the gas doesn't have rigidity. Friction just make every gas particle have same linear/tangential velocity. If you see the cyclon or hurricane thats what I mean, the center move with higher angular velocity than the border but overall they move with the same linear velocity (that's how the gas should supposed to move).

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2019, 01:30:59 AM »
Friction in gas means there is elastic collision between molecules particle constitute it. But elastic collision just maintain velocity, does not make it increased.
Unless it is monoatomic, the collisions aren't elastic.

If you want to think of it at the scale of the individual particles of gas, then they collide and have widely different energies and velocities.
The collision can turn 2 slow moving molecules into one moving quite quickly with the other moving quite slowly.
It also means all the different particles will have vastly different speeds.

If you want to think of it as a bulk gas, then it is friction just like with normal relative motion.
It will resist the relative motion. This will cause it to rotate as one.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 01:38:22 AM by JackBlack »

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mightyfletch

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2019, 04:13:35 AM »
Within clouds there are flying solid bodies like an aircraft.

Suppose the earth is round, those flying bodies need to be navigated by operators AKA Angels to maintain the altitude like airplanes do (at least "as what they told").

If REers still don't believe in FE yet, at least they are supposed to believe:

Round Earth + Angels

Danag, clouds do not have flying solid bodies in them, nor would there ever need to be any for any atmosphere to exist.

The troposphere is relatively small, so the majority of movement relies on horizontal pressure gradient and vertical bouyancy due to thermal imbalances, whereas the stratosphere above the tropopause rotates at 20% angular velocity due to the stable layey providing some separation between the two. 

I feel like I'm explaining this to a farmer from 9th century England, lol.
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fjr66

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2019, 04:45:22 PM »
Unless it is monoatomic, the collisions aren't elastic.
For practical reason we can assume the collision are elastics. Non elastics collision just make particle loss of momentum and became slower.

If you want to think of it as a bulk gas, then it is friction just like with normal relative motion.
It will resist the relative motion. This will cause it to rotate as one.
But at  a higher altitude, there is constant wind where upper layer of athmosphere have relative motion with the layer below it, and never become at rest. But this wind never make the cloud moving to the west. So overall this relative motion occur just as earth stationary.

In this link
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-wind-faster-at-higher-elevations
they just said that this wind caused by there is no drag of earth surface at higher elevation. But if that is the case, then the cloud must move to the west as the earth rotated.

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2019, 08:10:14 PM »
Non elastics collision just make particle loss of momentum and became slower.
Actually, with gasses these non-elastic collisions go both ways, converting between translational (the velocity of the gas), rotational and vibrational motion/energy.

But at  a higher altitude, there is constant wind where upper layer of athmosphere have relative motion with the layer below it
Yes, due to perturbing factors, because Earth isn't just spinning with nothing influencing it.

But this wind never make the cloud moving to the west.
If wind is blowing to the east, why would the clouds move to the west? That makes no sense.
It is only wind which blows to the west which would move clouds to the west, and guess what? That happens.

But if that is the case, then the cloud must move to the west as the earth rotated.
Why?
All that would mean is that the atmosphere above is disconnected from the atmosphere below.
It doesn't mean the atmosphere above is stationary while Earth spins below it.

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2019, 08:21:03 PM »
This might be a bit off topic but you can find websites with weather radars which show the movements of weather such as weather fronts , storms, etc.
One good source of these are the weather radar maps for Texas and the USA on www.wfaa.com /national-radar
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 08:25:00 PM by Googleotomy »
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fjr66

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2019, 10:21:05 PM »
If you want to think of it as a bulk gas, then it is friction just like with normal relative motion.
It will resist the relative motion. This will cause it to rotate as one.
Then there is no wind at upper athmosphere.

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2019, 11:42:04 PM »
Then there is no wind at upper athmosphere.
Which is why I specifically said "without anything else" and "Of course, in reality it is more complex as there are perturbing factors which generate things like wind."


If you remove all factors except the rotating Earth and friction then the atmosphere will rotate with Earth.
If you introduce other factors, such as the sun, which generates wind you will not have the entire atmosphere rotate as one and thus end up with wind which will blow the clouds in whatever direction the wind goes.

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fjr66

  • 123
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2019, 03:53:25 AM »
Then there is no wind at upper athmosphere.
Which is why I specifically said "without anything else" and "Of course, in reality it is more complex as there are perturbing factors which generate things like wind."


If you remove all factors except the rotating Earth and friction then the atmosphere will rotate with Earth.
If you introduce other factors, such as the sun, which generates wind you will not have the entire atmosphere rotate as one and thus end up with wind which will blow the clouds in whatever direction the wind goes.

Then there is much higher probability that the cloud going to the west than to the east as the earth rotated. But I never see anything like that, and the cloud goes to any direction as it appears. 

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2019, 04:32:48 AM »
Then there is much higher probability that the cloud going to the west than to the east as the earth rotated.
Why?
What are you basing this on?

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fjr66

  • 123
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2019, 11:06:49 PM »
Then there is much higher probability that the cloud going to the west than to the east as the earth rotated.
Why?
What are you basing this on?
Because the main factor: earth rotation to the east.

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2019, 01:09:08 AM »
Because the main factor: earth rotation to the east.
That is effectively just restating the same thing.
Why do you assert this is the main factor?
If Earth's rotation was going to be the main factor, with no other winds contributing, then the atmosphere would simply rotate with Earth.
Other factors which generate wind are more important.

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2019, 12:43:55 PM »


Water rotates in one direction because earths magnetism, right hand twist. Its impossible to duplicate using a ball shaped magnet, only a flat magnet with inner and outer magnets exactly how the flat earth model is mapped out.

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Stash

  • 3486
Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2019, 10:06:39 PM »


Water rotates in one direction because earths magnetism, right hand twist. Its impossible to duplicate using a ball shaped magnet, only a flat magnet with inner and outer magnets exactly how the flat earth model is mapped out.

How is it impossible using a ball shaped magnet? The video doesn't show an attempt with a ball shaped magnet let alone one that failed.

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rabinoz

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Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2019, 10:58:25 PM »


Water rotates in one direction because earths magnetism, right hand twist. Its impossible to duplicate using a ball shaped magnet, only a flat magnet with inner and outer magnets exactly how the flat earth model is mapped out.
No, it doesn't work on earth because there is no source if current and in any case the ocean currents do not "rotate in one direction". Look at this diagram of the major ocean currents:

Re: How cloud rotate with the same phase as earth surface
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2019, 11:11:42 PM »
Water rotates in one direction because earths magnetism, right hand twist. Its impossible to duplicate using a ball shaped magnet, only a flat magnet with inner and outer magnets exactly how the flat earth model is mapped out.
You seem to completely ignore the vast majority of your video.
It doesn't use water, it uses mercury, a metallic conductor.
It has wires attached to provide a circuit which the mercury completes.
It is the interaction between this circuit and the magnet that causes the mercury to move.
It only has an inner magnet.
It shows the direction of rotation reversing.
It in no way shows it is impossible on a ball Earth. All you would need is a magnet in the centre and a conducting ring inside and out, then it would work fine.

So this video seems to have absolutely no relevance to your claims or to the alleged FE or the real RE.

But what do you mean by "water rotates in one direction"?
Currents flow in a variety of directions.
For large scale systems without currents the direction of rotation changes based upon the hemisphere.