# Down

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#### Mikey T.

• 2418
##### Down
« on: July 12, 2019, 09:51:31 AM »
What makes things fall down?
What is down?

#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 10:50:30 AM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.

#### EvolvedMantisShrimp

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »
.
Nullius in Verba

#### Mikey T.

• 2418
##### Re: Down
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 03:08:17 PM »
why is down... down?
Gravity doesn't work on a flat plane.  Infinite or not.  Any miniscule difference in density of the crust of an infinite plane would throw off any possibility of stability and thus it would collapse into spheres.  The ground beneath your feet is not infinitely rigid, which is the only thing that would keep it from collapsing if someone simply dug a hole and displaced that excess mass to another spot on the plane.  Now you have more mass in one spot and less in another causing an instability which would always lead to a collapse.  Gravity measurements around the globe show differences in G due to altitude and density of mass underneath you.  With an infinite plane you need to have the mass of ground very evenly distributed to spread out the force of G to keep it stabile.
Since I can easily move dirt and rocks out of a hole with current technology this proves the ground is not infinitely rigid and an infinite plane could not withstand any concentration of mass.
Again, for a flat Earth that doesn't destroy itself, what is down?  Why do things fall... down?
Also, I did request a logical reasoning for your answer, you failed.

#### rabinoz

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 03:15:52 PM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.
What is Gravity?

#### wise

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 03:54:32 AM »
Density causes. boydster is an angry globularist not have a relationship with flat earth. He is your anygry globularist' slave. Do not use him as your slave. Mikey T. is already another moderator, sonof. Do not use moderators as your slaves. Deal with real flat earthers.
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#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 09:17:27 AM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.
What is Gravity?

A) that is out of scope for the thread
B) you tell me, smarty-pants.

?

#### JackBlack

• 12653
##### Re: Down
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 06:30:40 PM »
Density causes.
What does density cause, and how?
Why would density make any object move in any direction?

Density only provides a reason for the separation of objects in the context of gravity (or some other downwards force) which then generates the buoyant force.

Gravity doesn't work on a flat plane.  Infinite or not.  Any miniscule difference in density of the crust of an infinite plane would throw off any possibility of stability and thus it would collapse into spheres.  The ground beneath your feet is not infinitely rigid, which is the only thing that would keep it from collapsing if someone simply dug a hole and displaced that excess mass to another spot on the plane.
It doesn't need to be infinitely rigid.
It only needs to be rigid enough to overcome the forces generated by irregularities.

What you are saying is the same as claiming gravity should make a finite Earth into a perfect sphere, or a rotating one into a perfect oblate spheroid.

#### rabinoz

• 25608
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 08:12:08 PM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.
What is Gravity?

A) that is out of scope for the thread
B) you tell me, smarty-pants.
A) No it is not "out of scope for the thread" because most people accept that gravity is that which defines the direction "Down".

B) I was asking you! So stop being a "smarty-pants" and either answer the question or admit that you do not know.

#### rabinoz

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• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 08:15:54 PM »
Density causes.
How can "density" be "What makes things fall down".
Density is a scalar, so has no direction and is simply mass/volume - nothing there defining "down"!

#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 08:29:12 PM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.
What is Gravity?

A) that is out of scope for the thread
B) you tell me, smarty-pants.
A) No it is not "out of scope for the thread" because most people accept that gravity is that which defines the direction "Down".

B) I was asking you! So stop being a "smarty-pants" and either answer the question or admit that you do not know.
I see you think you have turned the tables. I answered the questions asked by the OP very clearly and directly. If you'd like to have a different conversation, have at it in a thread about whatever you'd like to discuss. A thread where you explain exactly what gravity is would be fantastic, and a great contribution to science. I look forward to reading it.

#### rabinoz

• 25608
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2019, 09:53:10 PM »
Down = the direction stuff falls when I drop it generally (especially things with very little aerodynamic drag)

What makes it do that? The thing we call Gravity.
What is Gravity?

A) that is out of scope for the thread
B) you tell me, smarty-pants.
A) No it is not "out of scope for the thread" because most people accept that gravity is that which defines the direction "Down".

B) I was asking you! So stop being a "smarty-pants" and either answer the question or admit that you do not know.
I see you think you have turned the tables. I answered the questions asked by the OP very clearly and directly. If you'd like to have a different conversation, have at it in a thread about whatever you'd like to discuss. A thread where you explain exactly what gravity is would be fantastic, and a great contribution to science. I look forward to reading it.
I'll let you start such a thread.

#### wise

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2019, 10:48:20 PM »
Density causes.
How can "density" be "What makes things fall down".
Density is a scalar, so has no direction and is simply mass/volume - nothing there defining "down"!

Why don't you asking instead of replying the question? You have database more than sum of all flat earthers. Are you kidding? Answer the question depends on "best explanation of flat earthers", then all we discuss on it. Would it not better?
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#### Mikey T.

• 2418
##### Re: Down
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 04:26:45 AM »

Gravity doesn't work on a flat plane.  Infinite or not.  Any miniscule difference in density of the crust of an infinite plane would throw off any possibility of stability and thus it would collapse into spheres.  The ground beneath your feet is not infinitely rigid, which is the only thing that would keep it from collapsing if someone simply dug a hole and displaced that excess mass to another spot on the plane.
It doesn't need to be infinitely rigid.
It only needs to be rigid enough to overcome the forces generated by irregularities.

What you are saying is the same as claiming gravity should make a finite Earth into a perfect sphere, or a rotating one into a perfect oblate spheroid.
Perhaps my line of thinking is invalid.  I was gathering with infinite mass a homogenis gravity field would need something infinitely rigid to counter any irregularities.  Basically the entire structure shares the load of all of the force.  I figured that a finite mass under gravity would be able to handle structural irregularities better since it is not trying to counter an infinite amount of force.  Just my line of reasoning, could be wrong, not as wrong as density causes.

?

#### Platonius21

• 367
##### Re: Down
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 06:33:26 AM »
What is Gravity?
All masses attract each other.  That includes the earth attracting other masses. We happen to call that one "gravity" just because we live here and the earth is so big we can notice that force at work.

?

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 23294
##### Re: Down
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2019, 11:40:18 AM »
Down is just a word that describes, towards the earth foundation or water.

#### Macarios

• 1925
##### Re: Down
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2019, 11:43:35 AM »
Down is just a word that describes, towards the earth foundation or water.

Describes the direction in which objects would fall at that specific location.
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

#### Mikey T.

• 2418
##### Re: Down
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2019, 01:40:34 PM »
Logical reasoning means nothing huh?  Spend more time answering the questions and less time being smartasses please.

#### wise

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2019, 02:05:03 PM »
What is Gravity?
All masses attract each other.

That claim has never been proved. None of masses attract each other. Only magnetic materials attract each other.

believing in gravity is equal to believing that rabinoz sits somewhere in the sky with his breath pushing everything down.
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#### Platonius21

• 367
##### Re: Down
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2019, 02:30:04 PM »
None of masses attract each other. Only magnetic materials attract each other.

Just because you cannot comprehend that masses attract does not make it untrue.

Here's an idea for you:  Hold out an apple in your hand and let it go.  Watch the earth attract it.

?

#### JackBlack

• 12653
##### Re: Down
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2019, 02:38:50 PM »
Perhaps my line of thinking is invalid.  I was gathering with infinite mass a homogenis gravity field would need something infinitely rigid to counter any irregularities.  Basically the entire structure shares the load of all of the force.  I figured that a finite mass under gravity would be able to handle structural irregularities better since it is not trying to counter an infinite amount of force.  Just my line of reasoning, could be wrong, not as wrong as density causes.

The easiest way is consider a point somewhere inside this infinite plane.
What direction would gravity pull it?
Well there is an infinite amount of the plane in all directions (at least horizontally), so it would get pulled equally in all directions.
This means there isn't actually any stress from gravity in the plane.

The only forces for a homogeneous plane is perpendicular to it, pulling towards the central plane of the disk.

If you put an irregularity into it, then it would be the same as if it was just that irregularity.
So a small additional mass would just result in the gravitational attraction to that mass.

Down is just a word that describes, towards the earth foundation or water.
So down towards the foundation of the round Earth? Got it.

#### Mikey T.

• 2418
##### Re: Down
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2019, 12:13:01 AM »
So, no logical reasoning for the downwards force we describe as gravity then?
Im not sure how much more fundamental I can get to discuss the differences between RE and FE without going back to discussing the absolute need for a conspiracy to "hide" the supposed true shape of the Earth.
Jackblack's and my discussion about how an infinite plane would react to changes in matter concentrations was the only discussion had in this threrad.  I gave you a chance to explain something fundamental.  We need you to start acting like people who actually believe the things you say.  You need to give some logica reasoning, not some smart ass failed gotcha attempt.  If you truely believe the Earth is flat, explain why things fall, what causes that, why down and not up, etc.
Yes I am trying to get you to explain the fundamentals so I can tear it to shreds like it deserves, but not even trying to defend your assertions does just as much to expose the con that is FE.

#### Macarios

• 1925
##### Re: Down
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2019, 07:41:29 AM »
Flat Earthers first have to decide if the Earth is static or not.
Is the Earth its own Universe, or it moves through the Universe.

If it is static then what pulls things down?
If it moves, through what it moves, and what else is moving in there?
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

#### Space Cowgirl

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2019, 09:51:32 AM »

Quote
Everything you thought you knew about gravity is wrong

What you think you “know” is a series of illusions

We don’t know what gravity is.

Say that to the average person, and the answer you’ll probably get is some version of: “What are you talking about? Gravity is the force of attraction that makes things fall straight down.” But say it to a physicist, and the answer you’ll get is, “That’s right.”

I know, because those are the two answers I’ve been getting for the past few years, ever since I figured out that nobody knows what gravity is, and that just about nobody knows that nobody knows what gravity is. The exception is physicists: They know that nobody knows what gravity is, because they know that they don’t know what gravity is.

The assumption that they do — that we all do — is understandable. Unless you think hard about gravity, your brain does what it evolved to do: It associates gravity with your relationship to the ground beneath your feet. You don’t have to think about gravity because you know it in your bones. But if you do think about it, you can begin to realize that what you “know” is, in fact, a series of illusions. These misunderstandings make the universe more navigable — physically and psychologically — and also leave it less mysterious.

Consider the assumptions underlying that common answer:

“Gravity is the force of attraction that makes things fall straight down.”

Well, yes — depending on what we mean by “force.” We can say gravitation is one of the four fundamental forces, but it’s such an outlier that the word “force” becomes nearly meaningless. The strong nuclear force (which keeps atomic nuclei intact) is about 100 times stronger than the electromagnetic force (which creates the light spectrum), which in turn is up to 10,000 times stronger than the weak nuclear force (which facilitates the subatomic interactions responsible for radioactive decay). Three forces, all within six orders of magnitude of one another. Then comes gravitation. It’s about a million billion billion billion times weaker than the weak nuclear.

To put that discrepancy into perspective, you can try this experiment at home. Place a paper clip on a tabletop. There it remains, unmoving, anchored to its spot by its gravitational interaction with the entire planet beneath it. The Earth’s mass is 6,583,003,100,000,000,000,000 tons. A paper clip’s mass is 4/100 of an ounce. Now take a refrigerator magnet and wand it over the paper clip. Presto! You have counteracted the gravitational “force” of the entire Earth with a wave of your hand.

Even more unnerving to physicists is that gravitation is the only force that doesn’t have a quantum solution — a theory that explains the force in terms of subatomic particles. The strong nuclear has quantum chromodynamics, electromagnetism has quantum electrodynamics, the weak nuclear has quantum flavordynamics. Gravitation has quantum bupkisdynamics. (The discovery of the graviton — a hypothetical particle that would mediate with nature on gravity’s behalf in the same way that the gluon does for the strong nuclear, the photon does for electromagnetism, and the W and Z bosons do for the weak nuclear — would help. But if it exists, it has escaped detection with a cunning unparalleled in quantum experiments.)

So let’s strike “force” from our answer. In that case: “Gravity is the attraction that makes things fall straight down.”

Well, yes — depending on what we mean by “attraction.” Two bodies of mass don’t actually exert some mysterious tugging on each other. Newton himself tried to avoid the word “attraction” for this very reason. All (!) he was trying to do was find the math to describe the motions both down here on Earth and up there among the planets (of which Earth, thanks to Copernicus and Kepler and Galileo, was one). Still, he was as powerless as a paper clip once the idea of attraction at a distance electrified the public.

So: “Gravity is what makes things fall straight down.”

Well, yes — depending on what we mean by “straight down.” The path seems straight only because you’re standing still relative to the Earth. As Galileo realized, if you drop a rock from the mast of a ship traveling on a river, its trajectory will appear to be an angle to an observer on the shore. Similarly, to someone outside the Earth who is observing a rock falling on our spinning planet, the path would appear to be on an angle. But the Earth is also orbiting the Sun, so that angle would actually be swooping, creating the appearance of a curve. And because the Sun is orbiting the center of the galaxy, that curve would be a very long curve. And the galaxy is moving toward other galaxies, and the universe is expanding, and the expansion is accelerating: How long and curlicued the rock’s trajectory appears depends wholly on where you are in relation to it.

So: “Gravity is what makes things fall.”

Well, yes — depending on what we mean by “fall.” We can just as easily argue — as Einstein did, expanding on Galileo’s ship/shore relativism — that the rock isn’t falling toward the Earth but that the Earth is rising toward the rock.

So: “Gravity is.”

Well, yes — depending on what we mean by “is.” We know what gravity does, in the sense that we can mathematically measure and predict its effects. We might anticipate what happens when two black holes collide or when we let go of a rock. But we don’t know how it does what it does. We know what its effects are, and we can give the name “gravity” to the cause of those effects, but we don’t know the cause of that cause.

Not that cosmologists particularly care. In science, knowing what you don’t know is a good start. In this case, it has led scientists to believe that finding a quantum solution to gravity is a key — perhaps the key — to understanding the universe on the most fundamental level. Until then, they will work with what they do know, no matter what every bone in their bodies tells them:

Gravity is not the force of attraction that makes things fall straight down.

You expect FE to have explanations for some downwards "force" but RE scientists don't know what it is either.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

#### rabinoz

• 25608
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2019, 03:44:20 PM »

Quote
Everything you thought you knew about gravity is wrong
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Gravity is not the force of attraction that makes things fall straight down.

You expect FE to have explanations for some downwards "force" but RE scientists don't know what it is either.
• For a start I would like flat earthers, like Plat Terra, to define what the even mean by the direction "down".

• It is rather misleading to say that "RE scientists don't know what it is either".
It is certainly known that gravitation behaves as a force of value under normal conditions.
So the way gravitation behaves here on earth is not in question.

Einstein then came along and explained the apparent gravitational force as not a force of attraction between masses but as an inertial force somewhat akin to the force needed to prevent an object from travelling in a straight line - the centripetal force.

But Einstein's GR simply reduces to Newton's Laws of Motion and Universal Gravitation for the relatively low velocities and gravitational fields on earth and even in almost all of the solar system.

So, for myself, I would be quite satisfied if flat earthers would:
• define their direction of "down", especially when they are trying to debunk the Globe because so many just assert that "down" is in the direction of the North Pole "down" to the South Pole.

• Explain how "gravity" behaves on their flat earth. In other words, how do they calculate the force exhorted by the version of "gravity".

#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2019, 04:04:54 PM »
So, for myself, I would be quite satisfied if flat earthers would:
• define their direction of "down", especially when they are trying to debunk the Globe because so many just assert that "down" is in the direction of the North Pole "down" to the South Pole.

• Explain how "gravity" behaves on their flat earth. In other words, how do they calculate the force exhorted by the version of "gravity".

I think I can answer this one on behalf of most FE.
1. The direction things generally fall, as in when they are not subject to things like air resistance, wind, etc. For reference, see a drop test in a vacuum chamber.
2. Observation, notation, analysis. Much the same way Newton set out initially working out how Gravity works.

#### rabinoz

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• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2019, 04:35:09 PM »
So, for myself, I would be quite satisfied if flat earthers would:
• define their direction of "down", especially when they are trying to debunk the Globe because so many just assert that "down" is in the direction of the North Pole "down" to the South Pole.

• Explain how "gravity" behaves on their flat earth. In other words, how do they calculate the force exhorted by the version of "gravity".

I think I can answer this one on behalf of most FE.
1. The direction things generally fall, as in when they are not subject to things like air resistance, wind, etc. For reference, see a drop test in a vacuum chamber.
2. Observation, notation, analysis. Much the same way Newton set out initially working out how Gravity works.
Fine, now explain that to the likes of Plat Terra:
You mean like this?

Or this?
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=60834.msg2192223#msg2192223
Or similar to this?
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=60834.msg2192920#msg2192920
In other words, you admit that you have no rational answer so all that you can do if refer to your own meaningless, ridiculous memes.

Are you honestly incapable of understanding that "down" on the Globe is not always in the direction of down from the North Pole.
"Down" is the direction a plumb-bob will point when hanging freely and on the Globe that is almost exactly towards the centre of the earth from all places on earth.

As noted, I am mainly concerned with flat earthers trying to debunk that Globe by continually claiming that the water would run off - what defines "down" to those!

#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2019, 04:44:25 PM »
I'm not sure why you feel the need to cross-post things like that in full form. Not only that, but you took the time to modify the quote to make it even more unbearable. Why? It doesn't make sense.

To address your post, it's not my responsibility to force anyone to conform to any particular idea. Plat Terra is perfectly capable of forming his own ideas and opinions, and if you have a problem with that then you go right ahead and keep banging your head up against a wall while trying to force him to think like you. I think it's a pretty silly thing to do, but that clearly hasn't stopped you yet.

You asked a question. I answered you. Don't tell me to go explain things to other people. Our interaction has nothing to do with anyone else. Plat Terra hasn't even participated in this thread. Telling me I need to "explain that to the likes of Plat Terra" is nothing more than a childish deflection.

#### rabinoz

• 25608
• Real Earth Believer
##### Re: Down
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 06:56:07 PM »
I'm not sure why you feel the need to cross-post things like that in full form. Not only that, but you took the time to modify the quote to make it even more unbearable. Why? It doesn't make sense.

To address your post, it's not my responsibility to force anyone to conform to any particular idea.
No it's not your responsibility but you chose to answer.  Plat Terra is not alone in trying to debunk the Globe using that same argument.

The use of the argument that "down" is a unique direction by flat earthers from the top down is commonplace, eg:
Is there ANYONE willing to present ANY evidence of a flat earth?? « Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 01:53:06 AM »
Where he uses these as evidence against the Globe:
Quote
2) Water has been determined experimentally to be level. If the earth was round, and spun, water would not be level.

4) No consider(ation) is made in the construction of the Suez Canal - it forms a straight and level surface of water (Carpenter)

5) Rivers such as the Nile would have to flow uphill
And he refers especially to the pamphlet One Hundred Proofs that the Earth is not a Globe by William Carpenter This is full of this assumption that on the Globe "down" in a unique direction.

The big problem is that there is no one "Flat Earth Theory" and almost every flat earther has a different explanation for so many different things.

But, I don't really expect you to have an answer for something you don't support.

#### boydster

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##### Re: Down
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2019, 07:01:36 PM »
The fact that I chose to answer, and provided a perfectly acceptable FE answer, doesn't mean I need to go instruct someone else that has not said word one in this thread to believe something. How is this the reality you operate in? Why must you insist on trying to move the goal posts constantly? It's really something to watch. Perhaps there would be more of a community trying to work together to resolve some of the inconsistencies if you and JackBlack weren't constantly trying to shut down conversations with every post you guys make.