What's the deal with REers here?

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magellanclavichord

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What's the deal with REers here?
« on: July 03, 2019, 04:04:12 PM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.

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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2019, 04:11:19 PM »
Without us, how would your nutty hypotheses develop into nuttier hypotheses?
Nullius in Verba

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 04:21:59 PM »
I don't wonder why round earthers are here, I wonder why the really angry ones stay.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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faded mike

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 04:47:06 PM »
Did you read about Sandokhan in the announcements? Some one copypasted his work into a book. I've read others say this place gives them ideas to write about.
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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2019, 05:22:30 PM »
Without us, how would your nutty hypotheses develop into nuttier hypotheses?

Hey, I'm not complaining. I'm just wondering what's in it for REers that makes it worth the frustration.

I don't wonder why round earthers are here, I wonder why the really angry ones stay.

Yeah, that's really the thing. I mean, I get it that people take politics or religion so seriously that they feel the need to convince everybody of their viewpoint. "Convert to my religion" or "Vote for my candidate." It's kind of understandable that people get emotional over that. But who gets upset when we say the Earth is flat? What kind of person cares that we view the Earth as flat? They're giving themselves ulcers and high blood pressure. And for what?

Did you read about Sandokhan in the announcements? Some one copypasted his work into a book. I've read others say this place gives them ideas to write about.

Plagiarizing, or citing his ideas to argue against? It's generally considered fair use to cite someone in order to present a counter-argument, but it's obviously plagiarizing to use someone's quotes as your own.

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2019, 05:29:16 PM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.

I beg to differ. Rabinoz for one, I'm sure has been responsible for many potential flat earthers not becoming flat earthers, and many flat earthers abandoning the empty flat earth cult ideas. Prove he hasn't.

As "here to laugh at you" has rightly pointed out, the flat earth society also serves as a platform to get the truth out that the earth is not flat.

Furthermore, it acts as an educational platform for people with work backgrounds in physics or science, to post educational content in an attempt to educate. That education offers to break through some of the radicalisation with common sense.

There is a real danger for people buying into the flat earth idea and being radicalized. It's no different to ISIS recruiting it's members. Flat earth promises it's followers their life is not insignificant as they believe the globe earth model teaches it is.

Living your life as though the whole world is flat, for the most part is probably quite harmless, but do we have to sit back and wait for some nutjob extremist flat earther to sabotage a NASA spacecraft or attack a NASA employee and his/her family? Remember the Edmund Burke quote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." That is why longterm round earther posters like Rabinoz, are here.

What I don't understand, magellanclavicord, is if you only want to keep your head in the clouds with other like minded flat earth individuals, why not stay in the flat earth believers part of the forum? That's what it's there for and where your ideas are safe.

Why venture to this section, where the facts are scary, and where you know your belief structure will be challenged?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2019, 05:53:45 PM »
You want us to prove rabinoz hasn't done something?

"here to laugh at you" is one of those angry RE who is only here to troll.

The rest of your post is paranoid nonsense.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2019, 05:58:52 PM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.
I had some posts that I hadn't seen on here before. One involving a laser and a plumb bob. Sheep boy (can't remember the username) let me know that lasers don't travel 10 miles.

I have another "original idea" that I haven't seen carried out. Only problem is, FErs say I'm the one who should perform the experiment. Well, I'm not the one who thinks 7 billion people are wrong so I don't really care to execute it.

This is the plan: find somewhere on the ocean where you have tall mountains in the distance. Get a boat to head straight towards the mountains. Make a long timelapse of the approach. On a round earth the mountains should appear to rise up out of the water. On a flat earth which argues perspective causes the mountain to appear very small, the mountains would proportionally expand rather than appear to rise up.

Anyway, I stopped coming here because I have a facebook friend who lives in my town who is a flat-earther. I'd rather expend my ideas and energy on him rather than this board.

I do come back from time to time to update the board on The Conspiracy. If NASA, SpaceX, and the global space corporations are just painting us pictures and fancy space stories, they have a lot to live up to. Either way it should get exciting. I will welcome the FE lolz if in 20 years the carrot is still dangling in front of us Round Earthers about civilian space travel.

As far as your quote about Einstein and insanity, he clearly never used a computer. I often have to do the same thing over and over and get different results because computers are just that great. /s

EDIT: And I come back for Space Cowgirl; she's the best  ;D
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 06:00:48 PM by FlatOrange »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2019, 06:11:57 PM »
Hello FlatOrange!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2019, 06:44:39 PM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.

I beg to differ. Rabinoz for one, I'm sure has been responsible for many potential flat earthers not becoming flat earthers, and many flat earthers abandoning the empty flat earth cult ideas. Prove he hasn't.

As "here to laugh at you" has rightly pointed out, the flat earth society also serves as a platform to get the truth out that the earth is not flat.

Furthermore, it acts as an educational platform for people with work backgrounds in physics or science, to post educational content in an attempt to educate. That education offers to break through some of the radicalisation with common sense.

There is a real danger for people buying into the flat earth idea and being radicalized. It's no different to ISIS recruiting it's members. Flat earth promises it's followers their life is not insignificant as they believe the globe earth model teaches it is.

Living your life as though the whole world is flat, for the most part is probably quite harmless, but do we have to sit back and wait for some nutjob extremist flat earther to sabotage a NASA spacecraft or attack a NASA employee and his/her family? Remember the Edmund Burke quote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." That is why longterm round earther posters like Rabinoz, are here.

What I don't understand, magellanclavicord, is if you only want to keep your head in the clouds with other like minded flat earth individuals, why not stay in the flat earth believers part of the forum? That's what it's there for and where your ideas are safe.

Why venture to this section, where the facts are scary, and where you know your belief structure will be challenged?

I like Rabinoz. He's calm and polite. I'm mostly wondering about some of the others, as Space Cowgirl mentioned: The angry ones.

Your notion that if people believe the Earth is flat they'll start assaulting NASA employees is ridiculous, and frankly rather offensive. There are nut-jobs attacking immigrants at the border, there are police murdering black kids, there are neo-Nazis and homophobes and racists attacking people, and on and on. I doubt there's a single instance of flat-Earthism driving anybody to an act of violence.

As for me, I'm not afraid to have my ideas challenged. I choose not to respond to people who insult or taunt me, but I read these threads more or less at random. (Not every thread because I don't spend that much time at the computer.) I actually find some of them entertaining. And if you've followed me (though I can't imagine why you would) you'll know that I reject the idea of a conspiracy and I reject the idea that the moon landings were a hoax. I see no contradiction between a flat Earth and space travel.

I do, however, feel that sending people to the moon, or Mars, or anywhere else off Earth, is a waste of resources we cannot afford, given the challenges of climate change, overpopulation, poverty, energy, and war. How many lives would have been saved if the money spent on Project Apollo had been used to alleviate poverty and resolve world conflicts peacefully?

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2019, 07:58:02 PM »
You want us to prove rabinoz hasn't done something?

"here to laugh at you" is one of those angry RE who is only here to troll.

The rest of your post is paranoid nonsense.

Yep, prove Rabinoz hasn't changed anybody's beliefs through his thousands of educational posts. Ofcourse he has. Oh, I'm sorry, did I just use a flat earth tactic to prove a negative, like prove the earth isn't flat? My bad.

Are you sure the rest of my post is paranoid nonsense? I know there are videos on YouTube where unhinged flat earthers childishly film themselves harassing famous astronauts and NASA employees.

Magellanclavicord, you seem to be an unusual exception to the rule. It doesn't make sense you can be a flat earther and also believe man landed on the moon.

You can't deny flat earthism can also lead proponents living a life where all authority, all education systems, all history, is not to be trusted and is full of lies. That can lead people to isolating themselves, not keeping up to date with news, and losing faith in humanity in general. That can be potentially dangerous to individuals.





« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 08:10:27 PM by Sunset »

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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 09:03:23 PM »
You want us to prove rabinoz hasn't done something?

"here to laugh at you" is one of those angry RE who is only here to troll.

The rest of your post is paranoid nonsense.

Yep, prove Rabinoz hasn't changed anybody's beliefs through his thousands of educational posts. Ofcourse he has. Oh, I'm sorry, did I just use a flat earth tactic to prove a negative, like prove the earth isn't flat? My bad.

Are you sure the rest of my post is paranoid nonsense? I know there are videos on YouTube where unhinged flat earthers childishly film themselves harassing famous astronauts and NASA employees.

Magellanclavicord, you seem to be an unusual exception to the rule. It doesn't make sense you can be a flat earther and also believe man landed on the moon.

You can't deny flat earthism can also lead proponents living a life where all authority, all education systems, all history, is not to be trusted and is full of lies. That can lead people to isolating themselves, not keeping up to date with news, and losing faith in humanity in general. That can be potentially dangerous to individuals.

If it were possible to list all the people who lead lives "where all authority, all education systems, all history, is not to be trusted and is full of lies." I think you would find that a vanishingly small percentage are flat-Earthers. It is a logical fallacy to assert that the Earth is round because some flat-Earthers are unhinged. The vast majority of unhinged people believe the Earth is round. None of this proves anything, except that your argument is off the mark.

I accept that it makes no sense TO YOU that I believe in the moon landings and also the flat Earth. But that's your problem, not mine. If I was trying to convince you of anything, this would be a problem for me. But I'm not, so it isn't. I am perfectly happy for you to believe something different than I do. In fact, diversity is a good thing. Once upon a time, long ago, we said it was important to tolerate people who are different than ourselves. But now we say that we should not merely tolerate, but celebrate diversity. I am glad the world is made up of so many different sorts of people. We are different colors and speak different languages, and follow different religions. And we have different views about the shape of the Earth. What a boring place it would be if we all believed the same thing.

There are, of course, FEers here who want to convince people to accept their beliefs. And there are FEers here who are just here because we find others like us here. And there are REers here who come to convince us we are wrong. I don't think there are any REers here who just come to chat with like-minded folks. That's what I think you might not grasp: Some of us are not trying to convince the REers of anything, and so we don't feel the need to justify ourselves to them.

I have been taunted by a couple of REers here who say things like "How can you possibly believe both X and Y? You must justify yourself to me" or words to that effect. They are wrong: I don't have to justify myself to anyone. They get angry at me because I won't argue with them! Why should I argue? I have nothing to prove to anyone. I'm sorry if they insist on giving themselves ulcers and raising their blood pressure. But I won't play that game.

I just fail to understand why people like that come here.

I thank you, though, for providing a possible answer: Perhaps they really think they are pulling people over to their side, and thereby saving them from darkness. I think it's unlikely, but I could be wrong. I just find it amusing to read the debate threads, those few I have read. They mostly seem to repeat exactly the same arguments around and around.

But I'm going on far too long.

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 12:49:06 AM »

I just like talking to crazy people, hell, I was top of Wise's black-white list once (true!) until I foolishly tried to point out how crazy one of his ideas was, I generally stay where I feel comfortable and at home, which is low down in the fora as that is where the fun is.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.



Life is meaningless and everything dies.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 07:00:59 AM »

I just like talking to crazy people...

Hell, that could apply to being on any internet discussion board! ;D

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 01:10:30 PM »
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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Crutchwater

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 03:19:05 PM »
It's like watching politics, like watching which democrat candidate can "out-left" the other candidates!

Entertainment, with a sprinkling of education.

Sorry Space Reverse Cowgirl, I am not the least bit angry!  ;D


That being said, the Earth is oblate spheroid.
Prove me wrong!
I will always be Here To Laugh At You.

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 03:36:18 PM »
Why should we (re asshles) giuve you a reason for being here.
You havent conntributed to any discussion and instead produce these jimster level whine fests.

As far as i can see youve shot down tats in regards to rockets, made fun of danag with a webster ref, and there was something funny you said to sceptu that i cant seem to find usong seadch on my phone.

Jane does more to the discussion.

I tease and call you out because you provide no furthering knowledge.

But you at least put out some tidbits that are discussable in this thread.
Space travel is wrothwhile for the reason that nasa was at one point monitoring the worlds climate health.
And to play the devil/ thanos, if all those billions were spent ssving people, we would have more people.
Unfornuately for the unlucky, war pestilance and famine are the only things significantly helping the envirojment via population control.
Who was the 4th horseman?

Eitherway.
The "crazy" conspiraists youve chosen to label you have also labeled the genius level scientists as "stupid" to not know the difference between a ball and a plate.
So youve come to insult both sides.
Some one has already told you yo pick a lane.

But you chose to whine.
Keep on dodging.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2019, 09:17:12 PM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.

It's my first day.

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2019, 12:27:17 AM »
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.



Life is meaningless and everything dies.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2019, 03:23:48 AM »
I don't wonder why round earthers are here, I wonder why the really angry ones stay.

People love to complain and be angry. It makes them feel good.

Take a look at cfc: he pretends to be angry at me all the time, but everyone knows he secretly enjoys it.
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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2019, 07:08:30 AM »
I've been wondering lately: Why do round-Earthers (REers) come to the Flat-Earth Society? A quote commonly attributed to Einstein (probably incorrectly) says that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. REers come here (which is fine, it's an open forum) where they know they will find FEers, and they present the same old arguments over and over again. I don't think I've ever seen an original or new argument in favor of a RE. And I doubt that any FEer has ever been swayed over to the RE camp by these arguments. So why do they bother? I know why I'm here: To find like-minded people to have friendly chats with. But a REer on these forums must feel awfully frustrated. Why do they subject themselves to this? There must be more enjoyable ways to pass their free time than arguing with us incessantly. And yet they trudge on, never converting anyone, but keep up the same old Arguments day after day; year after year. I don't understand it.

It's my first day.

Welcome!

I don't wonder why round earthers are here, I wonder why the really angry ones stay.

People love to complain and be angry. It makes them feel good.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Sigh!

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2019, 09:37:54 AM »
Hello FlatOrange!
Hello!! *waves emphatically*
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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2019, 11:39:03 AM »

?

dutchy

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2019, 01:06:43 PM »
It's like watching politics, like watching which democrat candidate can "out-left" the other candidates!

Entertainment, with a sprinkling of education.

Sorry Space Reverse Cowgirl, I am not the least bit angry!  ;D


That being said, the Earth is oblate spheroid.
Prove me wrong!
Uhh may i interrupt ?
One of your overlords claimed that ignorant people still claim the earth is an oblate spheroid, while in fact it's pear shaped... a little chubbier under the equator.

And you wonder why your guitar solo's sucks ? Because you rush the original.. this 'okayish is good enough' attitude you display on a constant basis.
So no... i really have to correct you again.. calling earth an 'oblade spheroid' was yesterdays nametag in globeland......it's pearshaped now !

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rabinoz

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2019, 02:17:33 PM »
That being said, the Earth is oblate spheroid.
Prove me wrong!
Uhh may i interrupt ?
One of your overlords claimed that ignorant people still claim the earth is an oblate spheroid, while in fact it's pear shaped... a little chubbier under the equator.
Dutchy, may I interrupt? Not that I'd bother waiting for permission from an ignorant upstart like you.

No overlord "claimed that ignorant people still claim the earth is an oblate spheroid".

Quote from: dutchy
So no... i really have to correct you again.. calling earth an 'oblade spheroid' was yesterdays nametag in globeland......it's pearshaped now !
Don't bother! , a little ignorant person like you knows far too little ob a topic to be trying to correct anybody!

You and other ignorant people fail to realise that the geoid is with a hundred metres of being a perfect oblate spheroid and for the 12,742 km diameter earth that's very close.
Quote
The geoid is the shape that the surface of the oceans would take under the influence of Earth's gravitation and rotation alone, in the absence of other influences such as winds and tides.

So, butt out with you pretensions of great knowledge!

PS Neil de Grasse Tyson is nobody's overlord but he does know so much more on topics like this that you'd be well advised to follow this advice:
     
“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”


― Mark Twain



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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2019, 02:32:52 PM »
If RE'ers didn't come here, what would you FE'ers talk about.
Rabinoz RIP

Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2019, 03:20:13 PM »
Oblate vs more oblate on one side - is still oblate.
Another Dutchy Dont Understand.
But thats ok.
Because some lay person said somethibg incorrect, that measn all the scientists are wrong.


Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2019, 03:21:07 PM »
Still would be nice to have a discussion with mage.

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magellanclavichord

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Re: What's the deal with REers here?
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2019, 05:12:15 PM »
If RE'ers didn't come here, what would you FE'ers talk about.

We'd talk about hiking and R/C model airplanes and we'd exchange recipes and we'd argue about Apple vs. Windows vs. Linux and we'd whether C/D equals pi or phew (I say it's pi, because after all, nothing's more American than apple pi) and we'd talk about politics. We'd also discuss whether flying saucers are piloted by space aliens or undersiders, and whether there's actually an underside or whether the earth goes all the way down or is balanced on a stack of turtles a la Yurtle the Turtle and whether Yurtle was really king of all he surveyed or if there was a taller stack of turtles just behind him. We'd discuss the differences between turtles and tortoises. We'd wax eloquent on the music of Bach and Mozart and debate whether Beethoven was a great composer because of, or in spite of, his father's cruelty. We'd discuss cabbages and kings and whether it's cruel to eat oysters after being introduced to one. Of course we'd argue about politics because it's a hard topic to avoid when you've got a baboon as your head of state. And we'd argue about religion because there's always someone who brings up the subject. Maybe we'd discuss why so many religions think God loves us when we have so much evidence to the contrary in the form of the unfathomable suffering in the world. We might even have time to work out the meaning of life: Is it exactly 42, or is it 41.99999999999999997654876475...?

I think we'd have plenty to talk about if you weren't here. But that doesn't mean we don't like you or don't want you here. I admit that it gets tiring when someone gets so fixated on me that he keeps demanding answers to questions I have admitted over and over again I have no answers for. (I have no answers for most questions, which, I think, makes me just like everyone else.) But even then, hey, diversity is a wonderful thing. And sometimes a person just has to tolerate a bit of taunting and ignore it.

Yeah, we'd have plenty to talk about. We might even talk about FET because in the FES there are people with many different FETs. So much detail to figure out.

In my OP I was just wondering why REers come here, and I think I got some good answers in this thread.