Tom Bishop thinks "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model".

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Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature

You’d be better off citing the Lego Movie.

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What a bunch of fools.
Indeed, round earthers have a lot to answer for.

Ok John, exactly what do you need from round earthers that they already haven't given you with substantial proof which you deny to show the shape of the earth?  It actually appears the flat earthers have a lot more to answer, as nothing they claim can actually fit into reality without making up conspiracy and new types of physics...
As Bishop suggests, they number far more than what can be answered in a forum post. They require a whole sub-forum.

However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?

Ok, I am sure somebody that can explain this issue much better than I will respond.  But how about you do the same with simple one.  How come there is no accurate Flat Earth Map that reflects anything close to reality? 
I solved this problem first in the 2000s with a collapsing state map. More recently, it is solved also by myself in the relativistic model - as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation. There are a number of other solutions out there, many of which can be found here on our forums.

This is the same problem I posit, perhaps. Why are the distances to all these locations inaccurate given the supposed curve of the earth and how far we can see?

Quote
Which one(s)? Since you can't seem to name any specific examples and instead substitute references that are too vague to be addressed, I'm going to call your bluff and say there are no natural objects on earth whose distances apart cannot be explained using the geoid (when necessary... otherwise, ellipsoid, or sphere, depending on how far apart they are and the degree of accuracy needed) and atmosphere. If you think you do know of any, why don't you start with one, and state where and how much you think the discrepancy is? Otherwise, there is nothing to explain.
Well, Tom is in this thread. He has discussed the Monterey Bay Experiment at great length several times in the past.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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markjo

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?

ummm...Here is a definition of Non-Euclidean geomentyr from a simple Google Search

What is non Euclidean geometry used for?
A non-Euclidean geometry is a rethinking and redescription of the properties of things like points, lines, and other shapes in a non-flat world. Spherical geometry—which is sort of plane geometry warped onto the surface of a sphere—is one example of a non-Euclidean geometry.Oct 17, 2014
What Are Euclidean and Non-Euclidean Geometry?
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/.../what-are-euclidean-and-non-euclidean-geometry

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?

ummm...Here is a definition of Non-Euclidean geomentyr from a simple Google Search

What is non Euclidean geometry used for?
A non-Euclidean geometry is a rethinking and redescription of the properties of things like points, lines, and other shapes in a non-flat world. Spherical geometry—which is sort of plane geometry warped onto the surface of a sphere—is one example of a non-Euclidean geometry.Oct 17, 2014
What Are Euclidean and Non-Euclidean Geometry?
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/.../what-are-euclidean-and-non-euclidean-geometry

A non-euclidean geometry is one which breaks or loosens one (or more) of Euclid's axioms. There shouldn't have been a need to google that.

Most often, this is done by relaxing or removing the parallel postulate which historically has a lot of contention around it.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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markjo

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?
I wouldn't call a globe flat, but I would call it a non-euclidean closed surface.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?

ummm...Here is a definition of Non-Euclidean geomentyr from a simple Google Search

What is non Euclidean geometry used for?
A non-Euclidean geometry is a rethinking and redescription of the properties of things like points, lines, and other shapes in a non-flat world. Spherical geometry—which is sort of plane geometry warped onto the surface of a sphere—is one example of a non-Euclidean geometry.Oct 17, 2014
What Are Euclidean and Non-Euclidean Geometry?
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/.../what-are-euclidean-and-non-euclidean-geometry

A non-euclidean geometry is one which breaks or loosens one (or more) of Euclid's axioms. There shouldn't have been a need to google that.

Most often, this is done by relaxing or removing the parallel postulate which historically has a lot of contention around it.

Why not? 

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Stash

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What a bunch of fools.
Indeed, round earthers have a lot to answer for.

Ok John, exactly what do you need from round earthers that they already haven't given you with substantial proof which you deny to show the shape of the earth?  It actually appears the flat earthers have a lot more to answer, as nothing they claim can actually fit into reality without making up conspiracy and new types of physics...
As Bishop suggests, they number far more than what can be answered in a forum post. They require a whole sub-forum.

However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?

Ok, I am sure somebody that can explain this issue much better than I will respond.  But how about you do the same with simple one.  How come there is no accurate Flat Earth Map that reflects anything close to reality? 
I solved this problem first in the 2000s with a collapsing state map. More recently, it is solved also by myself in the relativistic model - as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation. There are a number of other solutions out there, many of which can be found here on our forums.

You solved the Flat Earth has no map problem back in the naughts? Please share the solution with us. Which state?

This is the same problem I posit, perhaps. Why are the distances to all these locations inaccurate given the supposed curve of the earth and how far we can see?

Quote
Which one(s)? Since you can't seem to name any specific examples and instead substitute references that are too vague to be addressed, I'm going to call your bluff and say there are no natural objects on earth whose distances apart cannot be explained using the geoid (when necessary... otherwise, ellipsoid, or sphere, depending on how far apart they are and the degree of accuracy needed) and atmosphere. If you think you do know of any, why don't you start with one, and state where and how much you think the discrepancy is? Otherwise, there is nothing to explain.
Well, Tom is in this thread. He has discussed the Monterey Bay Experiment at great length several times in the past.

The Bishop Experiment is nothing more than an anecdote, not an experiment. No evidence, just someone saying they could see kids playing with a frisbee on a beach 22 miles away. That's the best example you have?

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?
I wouldn't call a globe flat, but I would call it a non-euclidean closed surface.
A pizza box is square shaped. So is Tiananmen Square.

Is Tiananmen Square a pizza box?

...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?

ummm...Here is a definition of Non-Euclidean geomentyr from a simple Google Search

What is non Euclidean geometry used for?
A non-Euclidean geometry is a rethinking and redescription of the properties of things like points, lines, and other shapes in a non-flat world. Spherical geometry—which is sort of plane geometry warped onto the surface of a sphere—is one example of a non-Euclidean geometry.Oct 17, 2014
What Are Euclidean and Non-Euclidean Geometry?
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/.../what-are-euclidean-and-non-euclidean-geometry

A non-euclidean geometry is one which breaks or loosens one (or more) of Euclid's axioms. There shouldn't have been a need to google that.

Most often, this is done by relaxing or removing the parallel postulate which historically has a lot of contention around it.

Why not? 
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

What a bunch of fools.
Indeed, round earthers have a lot to answer for.

Ok John, exactly what do you need from round earthers that they already haven't given you with substantial proof which you deny to show the shape of the earth?  It actually appears the flat earthers have a lot more to answer, as nothing they claim can actually fit into reality without making up conspiracy and new types of physics...
As Bishop suggests, they number far more than what can be answered in a forum post. They require a whole sub-forum.

However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?

Ok, I am sure somebody that can explain this issue much better than I will respond.  But how about you do the same with simple one.  How come there is no accurate Flat Earth Map that reflects anything close to reality? 
I solved this problem first in the 2000s with a collapsing state map. More recently, it is solved also by myself in the relativistic model - as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation. There are a number of other solutions out there, many of which can be found here on our forums.

You solved the Flat Earth has no map problem back in the naughts? Please share the solution with us. Which state?

This is the same problem I posit, perhaps. Why are the distances to all these locations inaccurate given the supposed curve of the earth and how far we can see?

Quote
Which one(s)? Since you can't seem to name any specific examples and instead substitute references that are too vague to be addressed, I'm going to call your bluff and say there are no natural objects on earth whose distances apart cannot be explained using the geoid (when necessary... otherwise, ellipsoid, or sphere, depending on how far apart they are and the degree of accuracy needed) and atmosphere. If you think you do know of any, why don't you start with one, and state where and how much you think the discrepancy is? Otherwise, there is nothing to explain.
Well, Tom is in this thread. He has discussed the Monterey Bay Experiment at great length several times in the past.

The Bishop Experiment is nothing more than an anecdote, not an experiment. No evidence, just someone saying they could see kids playing with a frisbee on a beach 22 miles away. That's the best example you have?
I'd have to dig up the collapsing state one. I'll see if I have time later, but its the little ones birthday tomorrow so my time is a bit limited.

The Bay Experiment is an experiment, one that has been repeated many times. Why do you think it is not one?

As far as the example, I wasn't providing "the best example I have". I was providing a simple one to solve, one would guess. And instead, you have hand waved, showing that the roundist is not up to the task.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Quote
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...

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Stash

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What a bunch of fools.
Indeed, round earthers have a lot to answer for.

Ok John, exactly what do you need from round earthers that they already haven't given you with substantial proof which you deny to show the shape of the earth?  It actually appears the flat earthers have a lot more to answer, as nothing they claim can actually fit into reality without making up conspiracy and new types of physics...
As Bishop suggests, they number far more than what can be answered in a forum post. They require a whole sub-forum.

However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?

Ok, I am sure somebody that can explain this issue much better than I will respond.  But how about you do the same with simple one.  How come there is no accurate Flat Earth Map that reflects anything close to reality? 
I solved this problem first in the 2000s with a collapsing state map. More recently, it is solved also by myself in the relativistic model - as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation. There are a number of other solutions out there, many of which can be found here on our forums.

You solved the Flat Earth has no map problem back in the naughts? Please share the solution with us. Which state?

This is the same problem I posit, perhaps. Why are the distances to all these locations inaccurate given the supposed curve of the earth and how far we can see?

Quote
Which one(s)? Since you can't seem to name any specific examples and instead substitute references that are too vague to be addressed, I'm going to call your bluff and say there are no natural objects on earth whose distances apart cannot be explained using the geoid (when necessary... otherwise, ellipsoid, or sphere, depending on how far apart they are and the degree of accuracy needed) and atmosphere. If you think you do know of any, why don't you start with one, and state where and how much you think the discrepancy is? Otherwise, there is nothing to explain.
Well, Tom is in this thread. He has discussed the Monterey Bay Experiment at great length several times in the past.

The Bishop Experiment is nothing more than an anecdote, not an experiment. No evidence, just someone saying they could see kids playing with a frisbee on a beach 22 miles away. That's the best example you have?
I'd have to dig up the collapsing state one. I'll see if I have time later, but its the little ones birthday tomorrow so my time is a bit limited.

No rush, I'm just surprised that the most vexing issue for FET (no map) has been solved by you a decade ago and the solution is no where to be seen on this site or anywhere else.

The Bay Experiment is an experiment, one that has been repeated many times. Why do you think it is not one?

As far as the example, I wasn't providing "the best example I have". I was providing a simple one to solve, one would guess. And instead, you have hand waved, showing that the roundist is not up to the task.

I would expect the best example, but maybe my expectations are too high. There's nothing to solve with the bishop experiment because we have no evidence. "The Bishop Experiment” is not an experiment, it’s anecdotal at best. It's basically a modernized retelling of the introductory fable in SBR’s ENAG Experiment II:

"The above-named experiments were first made by the author in the summer of 1838, but in the previous winter season, when the water in the "Old Bedford" Canal was frozen, he had often, when lying on the ice, with a good telescope observed persons skating and sliding at known distances of from four to eight miles. He lived for nine successive months within a hundred yards of the canal, in a temporary wooden building, and had many opportunities of making and repeating observations and experiments, which it would only be tedious to enumerate, as they all involved the same principle, and led to the same conclusions as those already described.”

The similarities are quite striking:

"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 20 inches above the sea level it is possible to see people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 23 miles away near the lighthouse. The entire beach is visible down to the water splashing upon the shore. Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore and teenagers merrily throwing Frisbees to one another. I can see runners jogging along the water's edge with their dogs. From my vantage point the entire beach is visible.”

SBR: when lying on the ice, with a good telescope...
TB: With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach...

SBR: observed persons skating and sliding...
TB: see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing…

If I were to retell the story from my perspective would it be worthy of calling it “The Stack Experiment” or would it just be considered some opinion piece with zero substantiation or evidence?

“Even on a very clear and chilly day it is not possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa. With a good telescope, laying down on the stomach at the edge of the shore on the Lovers Point beach 20 inches above the sea level it was not possible to see what I imagined were people at the waters edge on the adjacent beach 23 miles away near the lighthouse. From a much closer vantage point one could assume the entire beach is visible down to the water splashing upon the shore. Upon looking into the telescope I couldn’t see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I couldn't see people sun bathing at the shore and teenagers merrily throwing Frisbees to one another. I couldn't see runners jogging along the water's edge with their dogs. From my vantage point the entire beach wasn't visible, just the blue of the bay waters as earth’s curve was in my way.”

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Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...
Do you really feel copy pasting a google search lead you to a better answer over deductive reasoning (read: actually reading the word before pasting it.) I am being a bit harsh. I suppose lots of educated people don't know who Euclid is.

Stash, he has told you exactly where to go and where to look. You were just too lazy to repeat the experiment before crying foul.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Funny how we seemed to have gone from potential discrepancies with GR and quantum field theory compared to observations of the distant universe to children playing on a beach a few miles away.

Any chance of getting back on topic?

Johnd
In basic english
You took a globe.
Did some fancy math to make it flat.
...
Ergo the earth is flat?

Am i getting that right?

2.
Any fe in this forum live down by the bay?
Care to swnd a photo or youtube?
Someone should tell the two monkeys from the recent netflix doc to take their laser/ gyro over there.

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Stash

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Quote
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...
Do you really feel copy pasting a google search lead you to a better answer over deductive reasoning (read: actually reading the word before pasting it.) I am being a bit harsh. I suppose lots of educated people don't know who Euclid is.

Stash, he has told you exactly where to go and where to look. You were just too lazy to repeat the experiment before crying foul.

Actually, no, he has never revealed exactly where to go as evidenced by this thread:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5431.0

And no, it has nothing to do with my laziness (which there is much...). You brought up the notion:

However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?

And referenced the bishop experiment. It’s not for me to go to Monterey and double-check his observations. It’s for you to provide evidence to support your statement above. The bishop experiment is an anecdote, a story, not evidence.

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rabinoz

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However, let's start with an easy one. The distances to see many natural objects are shown to be incorrect when putting round earth theory next to actual observations. Many of these are noted in Earth Not A Globe and other literature, and many have been brought up here. How are these to be explained?
Really?
Would you care to elaborate with real verifiable examples and not some nebulous reference to a book published in 1881?

The Bishop Experiment is nothing more than an anecdote, not an experiment.
It's not even that - he was caught flat out lying. 
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markjo

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...as the surface of the earth is a non-euclidean closed flat plane whose 3 dimensional projection would be more or less a globe - explaining the accuracy of the globe in spite of its inaccurate interpretation.
Isn't "non-euclidean closed flat plane" pretty much just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
I don't know, Markjo. Is a globe flat?
I wouldn't call a globe flat, but I would call it a non-euclidean closed surface.
A pizza box is square shaped. So is Tiananmen Square.

Is Tiananmen Square a pizza box?
Perhaps not, but both are Euclidean flat surfaces.

Do you have any other irrelevant questions or are you ready to admit that your "non-euclidean closed flat surface" is just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Quote
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...
Do you really feel copy pasting a google search lead you to a better answer over deductive reasoning (read: actually reading the word before pasting it.) I am being a bit harsh. I suppose lots of educated people don't know who Euclid is.

Stash, he has told you exactly where to go and where to look. You were just too lazy to repeat the experiment before crying foul.

First I posted by accident and didn't know how to delete.  That wasn't the point I was trying to make but oh well. Yes, I know who Euclid is, doesn't mean that I understood what non euclidean geometry was. You don't  need to be an arrogant prick because of my ignorance. Unlike you I don't pretend to know it all.

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Quote
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...
Do you really feel copy pasting a google search lead you to a better answer over deductive reasoning (read: actually reading the word before pasting it.) I am being a bit harsh. I suppose lots of educated people don't know who Euclid is.

Stash, he has told you exactly where to go and where to look. You were just too lazy to repeat the experiment before crying foul.

First I posted by accident and didn't know how to delete.  That wasn't the point I was trying to make but oh well. Yes, I know who Euclid is, doesn't mean that I understood what non euclidean geometry was. You don't  need to be an arrogant prick because of my ignorance. Unlike you I don't pretend to know it all.
Sorry, I was too harsh. You are absolutely right, and I let the heat of the argument overtake my good sense and manners. I am sincerely sorry. I agree with you more than you know; I hold very dear the phrase: "I know I am intelligent because I know I know nothing."

Again, I am very sorry. That was out of line.
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

Quote
Euclid's Elements represents almost all the geometry you learned throughout grade school. It is one of the most notable and known non-fiction books of all time. For over two thousand years it served as the textbook on the subject. When someone says "non-euclid" geometry, you should be able to guess that its a geometry that is against the most notable work in geometry of all time.

You see, that is where you and I differ.  I choose not to guess when I don't understand something completely.  I am humble enough to look up an answer and not guess on exactly what it means.  In my line of work, I am an accountant, non-euclidean geomentry does not play a factor, so I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with it.  But I should have guessed that. ;D  I mean, you actually claim the earth is flat.  If that is not a guess, then I don't know what is...
Do you really feel copy pasting a google search lead you to a better answer over deductive reasoning (read: actually reading the word before pasting it.) I am being a bit harsh. I suppose lots of educated people don't know who Euclid is.

Stash, he has told you exactly where to go and where to look. You were just too lazy to repeat the experiment before crying foul.

First I posted by accident and didn't know how to delete.  That wasn't the point I was trying to make but oh well. Yes, I know who Euclid is, doesn't mean that I understood what non euclidean geometry was. You don't  need to be an arrogant prick because of my ignorance. Unlike you I don't pretend to know it all.
Sorry, I was too harsh. You are absolutely right, and I let the heat of the argument overtake my good sense and manners. I am sincerely sorry. I agree with you more than you know; I hold very dear the phrase: "I know I am intelligent because I know I know nothing."

Again, I am very sorry. That was out of line.
Thank you for the apology, I really appreciate it. I didn't mean to be so touchy.

Can you explain how you use non euclidean geometry to show a flat earth? Or is this more of a thought experiment?

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Username

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Perhaps not, but both are Euclidean flat surfaces.

Do you have any other irrelevant questions or are you ready to admit that your "non-euclidean closed flat surface" is just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
It was not irrelevant. There is a direct and obvious analogy in what I said; its point was that a globe is a non-euclidean closed surface and the earth is in contradistinction a non-euclidean flat closed surface. As Tiananmen square is not a pizza box, a flat surface is not a curved one. You seem to imply they are equivalent. They I content they are not.

If what you are arguing, that this is a "fancy 'don't sell me a dog' globe", then the idea is worthwhile still as it undermines the premise that the mathematical and empirical vertical slices of science determine that there is only one necessary interpretation. There is not. There is always at least one more.

What use does bringing these spaghetti arguments against it serve, Markjo?
The illusion is shattered if we ask what goes on behind the scenes.

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markjo

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Perhaps not, but both are Euclidean flat surfaces.

Do you have any other irrelevant questions or are you ready to admit that your "non-euclidean closed flat surface" is just a fancy way of saying "globe"?
It was not irrelevant. There is a direct and obvious analogy in what I said; its point was that a globe is a non-euclidean closed surface and the earth is in contradistinction a non-euclidean flat closed surface. As Tiananmen square is not a pizza box, a flat surface is not a curved one. You seem to imply they are equivalent. They I content they are not.

If what you are arguing, that this is a "fancy 'don't sell me a dog' globe", then the idea is worthwhile still as it undermines the premise that the mathematical and empirical vertical slices of science determine that there is only one necessary interpretation. There is not. There is always at least one more.
I'm arguing that flat surfaces are Euclidean, curved surfaces are non-Euclidean and you're just trying to use fancy math jargon to try to explain how a flat earth could look round.  The round earth is already non-Euclidean closed surface.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 08:30:08 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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rvlvr

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Are there any maps or models which FE would gladly use to navigate or sail or fly or otherwise travel longer distances?

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Bullwinkle

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Are there any maps or models which FE would gladly use to navigate or sail or fly or otherwise travel longer distances?

Longer? Approximately how longer?

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rvlvr

  • 2148
South Africa to New Zealand? Or Iceland to Chile? Something like that.

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rabinoz

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Are there any maps or models which FE would gladly use to navigate or sail or fly or otherwise travel longer distances?
Longer? Approximately how longer?
A lot longer.

The quote below shows the track of the container ship, Olivia Maersk, sailing from Aukland, New Zealand to Paita in Peru plotted on the AEP Map and on Google earth.

When plotted on the AEP map (see below) the track is curved and 24,920 km (13,456 Nm) long and took 15.6  days[1] and that is an average speed of almost 36 knots.
But the Olivia Maersk has a maximum speed of 23 knots and normally cruises at about 16 knots so "Flat Earth, we have a problem!"

So have a look on the Globe (see below).
Now the track is straight and the distance is only about 10,060 km (5432 Nm). The average speed is now only 14.5 knots.

So you ask, "Approximately how longer?"
In this case almost 21/2 as far as on the Globe and requiring an impossible speed for the Olivia Maersk.

The details and a video by BM Furball are below.
My figures differed somewhat because I calculated with the Maersk values for the whole voyage.

This video shows the track of the container ship, Olivia Maersk, sailing from Aukland in NZ, to Paita in Peru plotted on the AEP Map and on Google earth:

Boats across the Southern Hemisphere by BM Furball Pancake Hero Mar 21, 2019.

When plotted on the AEP Map the ship's route looks like this and was about 24,920 km:

"Boats across the Southern Hemisphere" at 5:06 - curved AEP map track 24,920 km

I wonder why that Sea Captain would take a curved path like that requiring his ship to sail that 24,920 km (13,456 Nm) in 15.6
 days[1] and that is an average speed of almost 36 knots. But no container ship can sail at anything like that speed!
Note the video says 12 days and 43 knots but I suspect that is not for the whole voyage.

Maybe that Sea Captain was using the wrong map ;), who knows? So let's try that same route plotted on the dreadful ;D Google Earth Map:

"Boats across the Southern Hemisphere" at 4:15 - straight Globe track 10,060 km

Look! Now the distance is only about 10,060 km (5432 Nm) and the required average speed is now only 14.5 knots - again the video has a higher figure.

Now Karaka seems to be experienced in these matters:
Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.
Maybe he can sort out this little conundrum ::).

[1] I took my elapsed time from this:
     
      At 2:21 in video - Olivia Maersk route forcast whereas BM Furball Pancake Hero presumably has details of the faster parts of the route.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
So I trust it is pretty safe to assume such an FE map or such maps do not exist. And if this can be considered a fact, doesn't that throw any spanners in the FE works? Defending and/or promoting a completely different model which has no (safe) real world use is a noble endeavour?

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rabinoz

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So I trust it is pretty safe to assume such an FE map or such maps do not exist. And if this can be considered a fact, doesn't that throw any spanners in the FE works? Defending and/or promoting a completely different model which has no (safe) real world use is a noble endeavour?
Some promote different FE maps.
Even on this site there is some limited support for the following continental layouts or slight variations:

Ice Wall Map
the usual "Flat Earth Map".
   

FE Bipolar Map
Promoted by Tom Bishop
   

South Polar AEP
Promoted by Danang

But each map (some prefer to say "continental layout") has it own set of issues.