Tom Bishop thinks "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model".

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All seems to boil down to a simple question to me:

“Is it necessary to have complete understanding of the entire universe to work out the shape of the Earth?”

IMO, of course not.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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All seems to boil down to a simple question to me:

“Is it necessary to have complete understanding of the entire universe to work out the shape of the Earth?”

IMO, of course not.
No, but when it comes to comparing competing models it does help to compare on as many grounds as possible. FET is about more than just the shape of the Earth, the knock-on effects to the rest of physics are tremendous, deciding those physics should be above discussion both doesn't make sense and actively gets in the way of debate.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

"As many grounds as possible"...

Interesting switchup.

In a previous discussion i attempted to eliminate fe theories that were porved false when considering reality as a whole (because most theories are ad hoc to solve a single problem) .
your response was along the line of we shouldnt do that because thats not fair.

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Slemon

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"As many grounds as possible"...

Interesting switchup.

In a previous discussion i attempted to eliminate fe theories that were porved false when considering reality as a whole (because most theories are ad hoc to solve a single problem) .
your response was along the line of we shouldnt do that because thats not fair.
I haven't a clue what discussion you're talking about, but I imagine my response was much more along the lines of "Don't throw a theory out at the first hurdle and just assume it doesn't answer a question because your personal knowledge doesn't go that far, there are plenty of FEers and most of them have been working on it for longer than however many seconds it took you to decide it was impossible."
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Tom Bishop

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Why shouldn't the laws of the nature that we discover need to work in the giant universe that RE proposes?

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rabinoz

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Why shouldn't the laws of the nature that we discover need to work in the giant universe that RE proposes?
If we can be sure that those 'laws of nature' are precisely correct in every detail but:
  • No scientist claims that 'laws of nature' are known precisely in every detail.
    In particular, while General Relativity and Quantum theory cannot be faulted in their own "realms" they are not "compatible".
    One point of conflict is that General Relativity is a Classical Theory where space is not quantised and so does not fit into the Standard Model of particle physics.
    The photon is the energy carrier for electromagnetic radiation.
    And so a graviton can be hypothesis as the energy carrier for gravitational radiation but that raises a couple of difficulties:
    • The predicted energy of this graviton would be so low that's its direct detection may never be possible and
    • "There is no complete quantum field theory of gravitons due to an outstanding mathematical problem with renormalization in general relativity."
  • There are unexplained observations related to the rotation rate of galaxies and in the rate of expansion of the Universe but these are only apparent hundreds (for the rotation rate) to millions (the rate of expansion of the Universe) of light years from earth.
    At such distances, no direct measurements are possible and on the question of the rotation rate the discrepancy is in relating the rotation rate to visibly matter and maybe not all matter is visible - hence "dark matter".
So there are still "unknowns" but none of this is relevant within hundreds of light years of here.
Hence none of this is relevant in the questions of globe vs flat earth nor even the heliocentric vs geocentric solar system.
All seems to boil down to a simple question to me:

“Is it necessary to have complete understanding of the entire universe to work out the shape of the Earth?”

IMO, of course not.
I agree!

All seems to boil down to a simple question to me:

“Is it necessary to have complete understanding of the entire universe to work out the shape of the Earth?”

IMO, of course not.
No, but when it comes to comparing competing models it does help to compare on as many grounds as possible. FET is about more than just the shape of the Earth, the knock-on effects to the rest of physics are tremendous, deciding those physics should be above discussion both doesn't make sense and actively gets in the way of debate.

No kidding the knock on effects would be tremendous.  At least we have something to agree on.

I’m not saying these things are above discussion.  Only that it shouldn’t be based on misrepresenting an article saying something completely different.

"As many grounds as possible"...

Interesting switchup.

In a previous discussion i attempted to eliminate fe theories that were porved false when considering reality as a whole (because most theories are ad hoc to solve a single problem) .
your response was along the line of we shouldnt do that because thats not fair.
I haven't a clue what discussion you're talking about, but I imagine my response was much more along the lines of "Don't throw a theory out at the first hurdle and just assume it doesn't answer a question because your personal knowledge doesn't go that far, there are plenty of FEers and most of them have been working on it for longer than however many seconds it took you to decide it was impossible."


No
More along the lines of "yes that fe could wpkr for that one 8nstance but doesnt match up to x, y, z other known measurable phenomena."
And your response was along the lines of "you cant expect a fe response to cover all reality."

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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"As many grounds as possible"...

Interesting switchup.

In a previous discussion i attempted to eliminate fe theories that were porved false when considering reality as a whole (because most theories are ad hoc to solve a single problem) .
your response was along the line of we shouldnt do that because thats not fair.
I haven't a clue what discussion you're talking about, but I imagine my response was much more along the lines of "Don't throw a theory out at the first hurdle and just assume it doesn't answer a question because your personal knowledge doesn't go that far, there are plenty of FEers and most of them have been working on it for longer than however many seconds it took you to decide it was impossible."


No
More along the lines of "yes that fe could wpkr for that one 8nstance but doesnt match up to x, y, z other known measurable phenomena."
And your response was along the lines of "you cant expect a fe response to cover all reality."
Yes, I am absolutely going to take your word for that.
More likely it was "You can't expect an answer to one question to answer a totally different question where other factors are at play." But this is kind of a completely pointless discussion anyway when you're mounting a personal attack based on something you can't even remember.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

just pointing out some swords have two sides and that i have pretty selective memory...
took a few min to find on computer - doing search like this on phone is near impossible.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=77036.msg2089124#msg2089124


Not ignoring.
Im piecing it together.
You guys have 20 theories to explain 20 different things.
Put'm together they make no sense.
[T]hen don't put them together, focus on the one element at a time.


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Bullwinkle

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And once again a jane discussion turns into this...
Maybe I should come to my senses and ignore Calamity Jane.

You don't need to ignore Jane . . .

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rabinoz

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And once again a jane discussion turns into this...
Maybe I should come to my senses and ignore Calamity Jane.
You don't need to ignore Jane . . .
No, but it helps preserve ones sanity and I need all the help I can get ::).

Not that I intend to always do it 8), only when it's wise.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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just pointing out some swords have two sides and that i have pretty selective memory...
took a few min to find on computer - doing search like this on phone is near impossible.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=77036.msg2089124#msg2089124


Not ignoring.
Im piecing it together.
You guys have 20 theories to explain 20 different things.
Put'm together they make no sense.
[T]hen don't put them together, focus on the one element at a time.
So... yes:

I imagine my response was much more along the lines of "Don't throw a theory out at the first hurdle and just assume it doesn't answer a question because your personal knowledge doesn't go that far, there are plenty of FEers and most of them have been working on it for longer than however many seconds it took you to decide it was impossible."

Pretty much exactly that. In the thread you were struggling to understand the notion that acceleration is caused by force, trying to understand twenty different models simultaneously was going to be a bit much for you. So, yeah, go bit by bit rather than throwing everything together. It's good advice.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Oh hells no!

You were struggling to understand that if two objects traveling together maintaining the same relative distances, require having the same accelleration.
Hence the fktard name ua.
Their masses are different so the forces are different.


But that is not the point.
You just proved the point.

Johnd tomB and dutchy and lacky seem to feel that because there is a "dark mass" to balance out incomplete and mostlikely incorrsct equation of the cosmso we can throw out newton and basic physics that explain the earth is round.

Get off your high horse and re read.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Oh hells no!

You were struggling to understand that if two objects traveling together maintaining the same relative distances, require having the same accelleration.
Hence the fktard name ua.
Their masses are different so the forces are different.
*the same vertical component of acceleration, not necessarily the same net acceleration. But whatever, the thread's linked there, I really don't have the energy to deal with your rubbish again.

But that is not the point.
You just proved the point.

Johnd tomB and dutchy and lacky seem to feel that because there is a "dark mass" to balance out incomplete and mostlikely incorrsct equation of the cosmso we can throw out newton and basic physics that explain the earth is round.

Get off your high horse and re read.
Yes, and I've already discussed that and how that's a pretty obvious straw man of what they're actually saying. What are you on about now? Do you think you'll ever read a single post anyone else makes, or will you just keep on in your own little world yelling at things no one is saying?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Im bringing up the double standard hypocracy.

You and others state because physcisits dont know about dark matter that we can throw out all nasa amd "mainstream" science.
You stated that it does help to compare on as many facets as possible.

But then when we point out the glaring ad hocness of the fe "reality" and how none coexist in any reasonable sense, you and others table thump and hand wave.
As per my example that i brought up.

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rvlvr

  • 2148
Horses for courses!

And once again a jane discussion turns into this...
Maybe I should come to my senses and ignore Calamity Jane.
You don't need to ignore Jane . . .
No, but it helps preserve ones sanity and I need all the help I can get ::).

Not that I intend to always do it 8), only when it's wise.

Come on rab.
The definition of insanity...

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Im bringing up the double standard hypocracy.

You and others state because physcisits dont know about dark matter that we can throw out all nasa amd "mainstream" science.
You stated that it does help to compare on as many facets as possible.

But then when we point out the glaring ad hocness of the fe "reality" and how none coexist in any reasonable sense, you and others table thump and hand wave.
As per my example that i brought up.
No. I don't state that. I have literally never stated that. I just got finished stating the exact opposite, and as ever you completely ignore it because it doesn't fit the straw man you want to push.
I said that to compare models, it is best to compare them in their entirety rather than random snippets and ignoring their overall effects. However if you want to get an understanding in order to compare models, it's better to go bit by bit so you actually learn how they coexist rather than assuming with your vast knowledge that they cannot when the fact is you not only know nothing about the models but actively avoid learning anything. You're trying to do everything at once. There are steps.
This kind of pathetic straw manning is just going to convince FEers that we need to lie. If you actually care about science, which I doubt but whatever, take a good look at the attitude you are perpetuating.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Like i said.
Table thumping and hand waving.

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rabinoz

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So, do you think that "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model" before trying to debate on the following topics?
  • Whether the earth is a Globe and not a flat disc. On this issue, I would claim that nothing outside the earth, moon and sun need enter the debate.

  • Which of the Heliocentric Solar System or the Geocentric Solar System is correct.
    And on this question, I would claim that anything outside the Solar System is not very relevant.
    Of course, the nearer stars may be considered when the question of why, for example, Polaris does not seem to move as the earth orbits the Sun.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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So, do you think that "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model" before trying to debate on the following topics?
Replace before with 'while.' Doing it before would get you a leg-up though.
Everything that would be different between FET and RET should be part of the debate topics. That's how debate works. They're the things you need to compare. I know you like ignoring every single answer that doesn't match what you want to be the case, but that's not changing.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
So, do you think that "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model" before trying to debate on the following topics?
Replace before with 'while.' Doing it before would get you a leg-up though.
Everything that would be different between FET and RET should be part of the debate topics. That's how debate works. They're the things you need to compare.
No, Everything that would be different between FET and RET and is relevant to the questions being debated should be part of the debate topics.

So, I still fail to see why we need compare irrelevant topics. Insistence on that borders on straw-man tactics.
And observations thousands of light-years away are quite irrelevant to either the shape of the earth of to the Heliocentric vs Geocentric question.

Quote from: Jane
I know you like ignoring every single answer that doesn't match what you want to be the case, but that's not changing.
No, I "like ignoring every single answer that" seems quite irrelevant to the discussion or that I believe does not further the discussion.

Now, would you care to answer the question asked in:
So, do you think that "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model" before trying to debate on the following topics?
  • Whether the earth is a Globe and not a flat disc. On this issue, I would claim that nothing outside the earth, moon and sun need enter the debate.

  • Which of the Heliocentric Solar System or the Geocentric Solar System is correct. And on this question, I would claim that anything outside the Solar System is not very relevant.
    Of course, the nearer stars may be considered when the question of why, for example, Polaris does not seem to move as the earth orbits the Sun is raised.
Yes or no!

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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No, Everything that would be different between FET and RET and is relevant to the questions being debated should be part of the debate topics.
And those two statements should be either synonyms or you're making a needless 'stay on topic' remark which is pretty irrelevant in itself. Any differences between models are grounds for comparison, grounds to see which does it better, and so is relevant to the debate. Deciding that two things are at odds on a topic but, nope, that's going to be put above debate is just silly.

Quote
So, I still fail to see why we need compare irrelevant topics. Insistence on that borders on straw-man tactics.
And observations thousands of light-years away are quite irrelevant to either the shape of the earth of to the Heliocentric vs Geocentric question.
And again, they are relevant to the forces appealed to in order to explain the heliocentric solar system, so whether or not they're directly relevant to the shape of the Earth doesn't matter when they're still kinda important to what should be under discussion.
Why are you making this about heliocentrism and geocentrism when it's about RE and FE? Geocentrism and FET are not remotely the same thing.

Quote
Yes or no!
I answered. The problem is you had a pretty clear example of a leading question, hence needing to clarify. Stop ignoring everything anyone else says just because you want to disagree with it.
But, yes, you should be prepared to debate all things relevant to the workings of the Earth, Sun, moon, planets etc. Shocker, that includes principles and phenomenon that are also relevant elsewhere.

That doesn't follow, that's what I'm saying. 'Experimentally verified' is not the same thing as '100% true.' It just means we haven't found anything at odds with it in local space; it also doesn't preclude something entirely different explaining all the same things and more. Thus if what should be the same application of those same laws doesn't work, that is a good indication that our understanding is incomplete. That's why people like talking about things like the transit of Venus, something that wasn't fully understood until Einstein came along and demonstrated that we needed to rethink our understanding of some things.

The problem is that the FE/RE debate isn't just based on one thing but you're treating this as if it's the sum total of what's offered. They'll use arguments like this to demonstrate scientific understanding does need to be refined, and they'll propose alternative physical laws that they claim answers the problem. But that goes in conjunction with dismissing the arguments you'd use to claim FET is too big a change/too unreasonable.
You can kind of view it as two steps. The first step is arguing against supposed disproofs, making a model in line with all observations, whether or not you believe they've done that. Then the question of whether FET has more explanatory power is plainly incredibly relevant, and their claim is that it does because RET can't fully deal with all of mdoern cosmology, and the important thing here is that to an FEer the first step at the very least has already been achieved, that's why they're an FEer, of course they're now concerned with the second.

REers being able to explain seeming contradictions with, at the very least, hypotheses is something I'd argue is good advice regardless.

The fact RET is incomplete is not some glaring flaw you need to cover up like an insecure teenager on a first date. All science is incomplete, that's what makes it science. Persisting in this misrepresentation of the facts encourages the idea that the unknowns are actually a problem when they're not, stop peddling this anti-scientific pandering attitude and grow up. RET can take honest scrutiny.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

The facts are not misrepresented.
The fact is that you have admitted the earth is not flat.
And if something is not, it is not possible to prove that it is.
So yes one could create ad hoc theories but they will never coexist in a complete model.

Thats why we have electron cloud vs rings and dark matter as a place holder and newton vs quatum mechanics.
(See - i like science).

But if you want to go around thumping tables saying the various fe theory is true, well ill leave it to jackB to come and do his own table thump back.

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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But if you want to go around thumping tables saying the various fe theory is true, well ill leave it to jackB to come and do his own table thump back.
For the love of god can you please learn the difference between the statements "The Earth is flat," and "Not every random pile of rubbish you throw out is a logical or even coherent argument for RET."
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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rabinoz

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  • Real Earth Believer
No, Everything that would be different between FET and RET and is relevant to the questions being debated should be part of the debate topics.
And those two statements should be either synonyms or you're making a needless 'stay on topic' remark which is pretty irrelevant in itself. Any differences between models are grounds for comparison, grounds to see which does it better, and so is relevant to the debate. Deciding that two things are at odds on a topic but, nope, that's going to be put above debate is just silly.
No, what Tom Bishop thinks "the RE should try to figure out the nonsense in their model" was only questioning the interpretation of observations thousands of light years from earth.

Are any unanswered questions about the interpretation of observations thousands of light years from earth relevant to either of:
  • Whether the earth is a Globe and not a flat disc. On this issue, I would claim that nothing outside the earth, moon and sun need enter the debate.

  • Which of the Heliocentric Solar System or the Geocentric Solar System is correct. And on this question, I would claim that anything outside the Solar System is not very relevant.
    Of course, the nearer stars may be considered when the question of why, for example, Polaris does not seem to move as the earth orbits the Sun is raised.
Yes or no!

And if you consider any of those unanswered questions are relevant please explain exactly why.

And I'll consider the rest when you'd answered that without side-stepping the question.

Just note that I'm not suggesting that such things cannot be discussed but they are simply not relevant to the basic questions that form the differences between FET and GET.


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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 12330
And I'll consider the rest when you'd answered that without side-stepping the question.
I answered the question. Several times now. You just ignore it because it's not what you want to hear. Grow the hell up. You are literally just being a child right now and plugging your ears until you get your own way. So, again, reminder:
Yes it is relevant because you cannot have a discussion of any of those topics without also covering certain key principles, and those key principles are applicable to far more than just those limited applications so if those key principles hold, they should hold elsewhere. It is absolutely, unambiguously, unquestionably relevant. Current scientific understanding does not seem to indicate that the laws of the universe rewrite themselves once you get light years away from earth. If it did, well, that in of itself would be an interesting tool for FET in itself, but given it doesn't it seems an extraordinarily relevant question as to if the laws that govern the Earth under RET are a product of scientific reasoning and still hold or special pleading and only hold in limited situations, the latter being the FE claim. If the theory of gravity does not hold thousands of light years away then something needs to be refined and those refinements could more than likely impact us. Laws of physics do not give a flying Thork how far from the Earth you are and the laws of physics are crucial to this whole debate.

Pay attention this time, I am sick of repeating myself. I cannot put it any more clearly. Would you like me to increase the font size next time?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Hahah
Hand wave a bit more there jane.

Physists cant see and have to guess at the amount of material in a galxay.
And they find their math is wrong, they added .
They have to guess at black hole power.
The have to guess at a lot.
And the reporters should state these asummptuons and not as facts.
Thats a failure and misleading.

But.
What rab and i have pointed out still holds.
The ball is a ball and we can know its a ball with a reasonably high degree of confidence.
So what does a supernovablackhole have to do with predicting eclipses or tides?
How can we have eclipse chasers?
How can we have a wetnwild tidal bore inudstry?

Come on now.