Rowbotham A contemporary account

I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

Looks a lot more like finding a way to finally admit the Earth is spherical object in 3D space, while misrepresenting relativity enough to claim it's still somehow flat.

While I took liberties, its clear many astrophysicists and laymen believe that gravity is causing giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating.

Care to read what you originally wrote?

Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds?

You did not merely say "giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating."
What you did say was "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds".
Notice the difference?
The "liberties" you took omitted much of the ridicule, "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about", and
an apparent error with your "circles at accelerating speeds".

Celestial bodies in circular or elliptical orbits are continually accelerating but saying at accelerating speeds seems quite misleading.

So I have to ask whether anyone interested in an honest debate would post that sort of thing?

By almost all accounts Samuel Rowbotham was a skilled debater and intelligent man. There will always be those on the other side of the debate that will levee these attacks against us, against common sense, reality and truth. You are amongst those who try, yet so far you have failed to get the spamghetti to stick to the wall.

I am not particularly keen on Rowbotham, aside from his historical importance and the teleological necessity of his arguments to have existed to get us to where we are today. Many of his arguments and so-called proofs I dismiss. Others have worth.

There has never been a time I held the UA as factual. At times I will defend it as if I did as many of the arguments brought to its gates are balderdash, and because I am knowledgable about what it says and doesn't say.

Wise does like to claim I am no friend to the cause, and not the greatest flat earther of our time. His arguments against me couldn't hold the weight of a feather. His mind addled by years searching for the truth, he has turned against his own and attacks our own mutual interests in some fool's errand of a holy war. On the other hand, I see no warrant for attacking him based on his difficulty grasping our lingua. That's just low class, but I'd expect little more than that out lonerager.

Now onward to my credentials. It is clear neither Sandokhan the great, or Wise the mad can hold a match to the light of my greatness. They don't even know who created one of the most prominent theories on this site, and that it wasn't me - or that I fought for years against said theory. The same is true of rager, who has finally proven he is capable of opening a book! Kudos!

However, your jubilation at finally finishing your Hooked On Phonics course will be short lived as I drag the corpse of your pitiful worldview around our city for all to see. I have created the most robust extension of the work of Johnson and Shenton to date, one which has never been successfully assaulted. When the earth sciences books are rewritten, there is no doubt my face will adorn its own section, and your eyes will shed tears of regret as your first born will have to read of your great internet enemy for his school boy tests. Aside from my work with the infinite plane model, I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

My colleagues will always look at me from the side of their eye, much like those round earthers. As Antonio Salieri was to Mozart, their minds are simply not up to the task of competing against the voice of our generation. Its of no fault of their own - it is a symptom of their human condition and I feel great regret that my genius has such a heavy weight on the souls out there that also reach for truth.

As far as gravity goes, its simply a word we use to hide man's ignorance. Of course things fall. Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Are you going to include some of that good stuff in your new book John? Have the talks gone well, and has a launch date been decided on?.....exciting times.

I think this might make a good strap line or sub heading...

“I have created the most robust extension of the work of Johnson and Shenton to date”

Perhaps a book of me owning roundies like you would be a page turner.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 05:33:17 PM

While I took liberties, its clear many astrophysicists and laymen believe that gravity is causing giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating.

Care to read what you originally wrote?

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds?

You did not merely say "giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating."
What you did say was "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds".
Notice the difference?
The "liberties" you took omitted much of the ridicule, "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about", and
an apparent error with your "circles at accelerating speeds".

Celestial bodies in circular or elliptical orbits are continually accelerating but saying at accelerating speeds seems quite misleading.

So I have to ask whether anyone interested in an honest debate would post that sort of thing?

After almost two decades of responding to arguments that are largely brought in the same tone, I see no problem meeting that tone. Did I commit some sort of logical fallacy that excludes this from "honest debate"? Did I lie?

No, I used colorful language. On the other hand, you ignore the point and attack how it is presented - this is a logical fallacy. I find it odd you are the one rallying us to honest debate, while in the same breath undermining the pursuit of said debate.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

Looks a lot more like finding a way to finally admit the Earth is spherical object in 3D space, while misrepresenting relativity enough to claim it's still somehow flat.

Not at all. Of course, it can't be in 3d space while also being represented by relativity. Or round for that matter.

Quote from: Unconvinced on May 16, 2019, 08:17:10 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

Looks a lot more like finding a way to finally admit the Earth is spherical object in 3D space, while misrepresenting relativity enough to claim it's still somehow flat.

Not at all. Of course, it can't be in 3d space while also being represented by relativity. Or round for that matter.

The earth is only in 4-space if you are considering spacetime and you always seem to separate them into space and time.
The effects of General Relativity that we see are almost entirely due to the curvature of the "timelike component" of spacetime.
Any curvature of the "spacelike component" of spacetime is in almost all cases quite inconsequential and only of interest only to physicist and cosmologists.

Please prove that "it can't be . . . . . round for that matter." Sure, I can "prove" that the earth can't be a perfect sphere but . . . .

Perhaps a book of me owning roundies like you would be a page turner.

Quote from: rabinoz on May 16, 2019, 09:12:52 PM

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 05:33:17 PM

While I took liberties, its clear many astrophysicists and laymen believe that gravity is causing giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating.

Care to read what you originally wrote?

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds?

You did not merely say "giant celestial balls of matter to travel circles while accelerating."
What you did say was "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds".
Notice the difference?
The "liberties" you took omitted much of the ridicule, "some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about", and
an apparent error with your "circles at accelerating speeds".

Celestial bodies in circular or elliptical orbits are continually accelerating but saying at accelerating speeds seems quite misleading.

So I have to ask whether anyone interested in an honest debate would post that sort of thing?

After almost two decades of responding to arguments that are largely brought in the same tone, I see no problem meeting that tone. Did I commit some sort of logical fallacy that excludes this from "honest debate"? Did I lie?

No, I used colorful language. On the other hand, you ignore the point and attack how it is presented - this is a logical fallacy. I find it odd you are the one rallying us to honest debate, while in the same breath undermining the pursuit of said debate.

Bring it on.....that’s of course if you ever manage to finish it, which is assuming you have actually started it!

By almost all accounts Samuel Rowbotham was a skilled debater and intelligent man. There will always be those on the other side of the debate that will levee these attacks against us, against common sense, reality and truth. You are amongst those who try, yet so far you have failed to get the spamghetti to stick to the wall.

I am not particularly keen on Rowbotham, aside from his historical importance and the teleological necessity of his arguments to have existed to get us to where we are today. Many of his arguments and so-called proofs I dismiss. Others have worth.

Aside from my work with the infinite plane model, I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

My colleagues will always look at me from the side of their eye, much like those round earthers. As Antonio Salieri was to Mozart, their minds are simply not up to the task of competing against the voice of our generation. Its of no fault of their own - it is a symptom of their human condition and I feel great regret that my genius has such a heavy weight on the souls out there that also reach for truth.

As far as gravity goes, its simply a word we use to hide man's ignorance. Of course things fall. Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Rowbotham was nothing more than a huckster who peddled all manner of snake oils, including his flat earth theories and miracle cures.   

Do you mean, the average round earther will "behave" as if the earth is stationary and flat? If so, I may actually tend to agree with you here.

If true, it's partly because it's an easier frame of reference for day to day living and makes the immediate world around, seem more accessible and relatable. People don't need to be constantly  thinking about the earth travelling at 30 kilometers a second in it's orbit around the sun or the movement of tectonic plates under their feet. The sun does it's thing daily, the weather does it's thing, the seasons come and go, and places stay fixed. In the back of their minds, though, they "believe" the larger picture of earth is a globe.

The average round earther is simply not obsessed with the shape of the earth like flat earthers, and simply lives on it. Round earthers have more important things (jobs, careers, mortgages, family, friends, clubs) to occupy their time in survival and day to day living.

John, have you been to a doctor lately?

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

By almost all accounts Samuel Rowbotham was a skilled debater and intelligent man. There will always be those on the other side of the debate that will levee these attacks against us, against common sense, reality and truth. You are amongst those who try, yet so far you have failed to get the spamghetti to stick to the wall.

I am not particularly keen on Rowbotham, aside from his historical importance and the teleological necessity of his arguments to have existed to get us to where we are today. Many of his arguments and so-called proofs I dismiss. Others have worth.

Aside from my work with the infinite plane model, I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

My colleagues will always look at me from the side of their eye, much like those round earthers. As Antonio Salieri was to Mozart, their minds are simply not up to the task of competing against the voice of our generation. Its of no fault of their own - it is a symptom of their human condition and I feel great regret that my genius has such a heavy weight on the souls out there that also reach for truth.

As far as gravity goes, its simply a word we use to hide man's ignorance. Of course things fall. Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Rowbotham was nothing more than a huckster who peddled all manner of snake oils, including his flat earth theories and miracle cures.   

Do you mean, the average round earther will "behave" as if the earth is stationary and flat? If so, I may actually tend to agree with you here.

If true, it's partly because it's an easier frame of reference for day to day living and makes the immediate world around, seem more accessible and relatable. People don't need to be constantly  thinking about the earth travelling at 30 kilometers a second in it's orbit around the sun or the movement of tectonic plates under their feet. The sun does it's thing daily, the weather does it's thing, the seasons come and go, and places stay fixed. In the back of their minds, though, they "believe" the larger picture of earth is a globe.

The average round earther is simply not obsessed with the shape of the earth like flat earthers, and simply lives on it. Round earthers have more important things (jobs, careers, mortgages, family, friends, clubs) to occupy their time in survival and day to day living.

John, have you been to a doctor lately?

The problem John and his ilk have is they have painted themselves into a pointless waste of time flat earth corner with pots and pots of super denial paint. None of their beliefs are worth a fig, and as for John’s new alleged flat earth book!.......what is the point?

Lonegranger, each to their own, but a big poignant point is the last question I asked John in my last post.

Lonegranger, each to their own, but a big poignant point is the last question I asked John in my last post.

Spending ones life writing a book that argues the earth is flat is an exercise in futility, and dare I say a total waste of time. With the natural world falling apart and in a state of crisis there are real problems out there to worry about rather than clutching on to imaginary ones.

Quote from: Sunset on May 27, 2019, 03:15:51 PM

Lonegranger, each to their own, but a big poignant point is the last question I asked John in my last post.

Spending ones life writing a book that argues the earth is flat is an exercise in futility, and dare I say a total waste of time. With the natural world falling apart and in a state of crisis there are real problems out there to worry about rather than clutching on to imaginary ones.

Life comes down to values, Loneranger. Your values and passions differ from John's, and he's only doing what he's required to do anyway. Whatever comes of John Davis book, will be a learning experience. Don't worry about it.

Visiting this forum has been fun and educational in unexpected ways, but let's be honest, to an outsider, engaging in actual debate about the earth being either round or flat, is so so monumentally stupid.

But, behind each of these posts is a real life human being, and man, there are some red flags flying in John Davis last post.

Quote from: John Davis on May 16, 2019, 08:58:16 AM

By almost all accounts Samuel Rowbotham was a skilled debater and intelligent man. There will always be those on the other side of the debate that will levee these attacks against us, against common sense, reality and truth. You are amongst those who try, yet so far you have failed to get the spamghetti to stick to the wall.

I am not particularly keen on Rowbotham, aside from his historical importance and the teleological necessity of his arguments to have existed to get us to where we are today. Many of his arguments and so-called proofs I dismiss. Others have worth.

Aside from my work with the infinite plane model, I have also successfully shown that the average round earther believes the earth to be flat, without them even having the therewithall to realize this. I have built this into a robust theory that also stands without challenge.

My colleagues will always look at me from the side of their eye, much like those round earthers. As Antonio Salieri was to Mozart, their minds are simply not up to the task of competing against the voice of our generation. Its of no fault of their own - it is a symptom of their human condition and I feel great regret that my genius has such a heavy weight on the souls out there that also reach for truth.

As far as gravity goes, its simply a word we use to hide man's ignorance. Of course things fall. Do I think gravity is causing some sort of celestial race with giant balls of mud being flung about in circles at accelerating speeds? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Rowbotham was nothing more than a huckster who peddled all manner of snake oils, including his flat earth theories and miracle cures.   

Do you mean, the average round earther will "behave" as if the earth is stationary and flat? If so, I may actually tend to agree with you here.

If true, it's partly because it's an easier frame of reference for day to day living and makes the immediate world around, seem more accessible and relatable. People don't need to be constantly  thinking about the earth travelling at 30 kilometers a second in it's orbit around the sun or the movement of tectonic plates under their feet. The sun does it's thing daily, the weather does it's thing, the seasons come and go, and places stay fixed. In the back of their minds, though, they "believe" the larger picture of earth is a globe.

The average round earther is simply not obsessed with the shape of the earth like flat earthers, and simply lives on it. Round earthers have more important things (jobs, careers, mortgages, family, friends, clubs) to occupy their time in survival and day to day living.

John, have you been to a doctor lately?

How dare you. So you are now implying that the greatest mind of our time is jobless, career-less, mortgage-less, family-less, friendless and club-less, and crazy? You are aware we are discussing this in what is essentially an online club? I have a fantastic job working for a household name as a Senior Full Stack Engineer. I am Secretary to the Flat Earth Society, yes a club. I have three wonderful children, and a beautiful wife whom all live in my wonderful house. I have a great group of regular friends, and we meet every couple of weeks for a game night and dinner. And yes, I am mentally healthy, aside from overtaking from libations.

I'm sorry survival is so hard for you, given societies massive contributions over the past thousands of years to make it ridiculously easy for you to live. That seems to be no reason to put down those "people behind the posts" you talk of.

I have seen many claims of rowbotham engaging the scientists of his day in debates.
I have yet to see any proof or record of any.
He held lectures. A lecture is not a debate.
There were question and answer sessions at the end of the lectures. This is not a debate and left him the opportunity to stop answering at any time. Some accounts claim this occurred, he simply ran away.
So who from the scientific community did he actually debate?
Why did he completely fail to have anyone of standing in the least convinced that the earth might not be a globe?
Why did he not rate a mention in a single scientific publication outside his own book?

I'd look into Christine Garwood's excellent work on the subject. I believe a few are mentioned there, as well as ones mentioned between others in his group.

Quote from: Sunset on May 27, 2019, 03:15:51 PM

Lonegranger, each to their own, but a big poignant point is the last question I asked John in my last post.

Spending ones life writing a book that argues the earth is flat is an exercise in futility, and dare I say a total waste of time. With the natural world falling apart and in a state of crisis there are real problems out there to worry about rather than clutching on to imaginary ones.

And how is the great grangers time spent? Oh, insulting people on the internet over what they choose to believe, rather than solving real problems. Kettle, I'd like you meet pot. I'm sure you know far better how to spend my time than myself. I am reminded of a certain Fox and his tale; after all 'there are many who pretend to despise and belittle that which is beyond their reach.'

Quote from: Lonegranger on May 27, 2019, 10:47:25 PM

Quote from: Sunset on May 27, 2019, 03:15:51 PM

Lonegranger, each to their own, but a big poignant point is the last question I asked John in my last post.

Spending ones life writing a book that argues the earth is flat is an exercise in futility, and dare I say a total waste of time. With the natural world falling apart and in a state of crisis there are real problems out there to worry about rather than clutching on to imaginary ones.

Life comes down to values, Loneranger. Your values and passions differ from John's, and he's only doing what he's required to do anyway. Whatever comes of John Davis book, will be a learning experience. Don't worry about it.

Visiting this forum has been fun and educational in unexpected ways, but let's be honest, to an outsider, engaging in actual debate about the earth being either round or flat, is so so monumentally stupid.

But, behind each of these posts is a real life human being, and man, there are some red flags flying in John Davis last post.

Thank you for the overall sentiment, and perhaps I responded a bit harshly to your original post. However, there is a large jump between seeing possible "red flags" and attacking a real life human being and suggesting he is mad and alone.