How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?

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How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« on: May 02, 2019, 04:55:29 PM »
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website.

From what I have been able to gather, the earth is a flat circular disc with a diameter of approximately 20,000 km. I get to this number by assuming that the equator is 10,000 km from the North Pole, and the southern ice wall is the same distance from the equator. At least, that is how your published maps look.

On this website I have seen various figures for the altitude of the sun, ranging from 1,100 km to 6,400 km. For the rest of this question I will assume 1,100 km as that is the best case for FE; any higher figure makes sunset even more impossible.

Now let us consider how the sun looks for someone at the North Pole. The furthest that the sun can possibly be away from the North Pole is 20,000 km, assuming it ever got near the southern ice wall. No FE maps show the sun that far south, but again, this is the best scenario for FE. Now, if the sun is 1,100 km high at a distance of 20,000 km, the angle between the horizon and the sun is given by simple trigonometry, as follows:

A = atan(1100/20000) = 3 degrees

If we assume the sun sits at an altitude of 6,400 km then we get

A = atan(6400/20000) = 18 degrees

In other words, even in the best (for FE) case, we can NEVER see the sun less than 3 degrees above the horizon. If the observer is farther south, or if we look at the sun at sunset instead of midnight, the observer will be closer to the sun, and hence the sun will appear even higher above the horizon.

Hence my question: please explain how we can ever see the sun sink below the horizon.

For people who live in the US (most FEers?) and do not understand my new-fangled metrics, here are (approximate) conversions:
20,000 km = 12,430 miles
6,400 km = 4,000 miles
1,100 km= 700 miles

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 08:03:01 AM »
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website.

From what I have been able to gather, the earth is a flat circular disc with a diameter of approximately 20,000 km. I get to this number by assuming that the equator is 10,000 km from the North Pole, and the southern ice wall is the same distance from the equator. At least, that is how your published maps look.

On this website I have seen various figures for the altitude of the sun, ranging from 1,100 km to 6,400 km. For the rest of this question I will assume 1,100 km as that is the best case for FE; any higher figure makes sunset even more impossible.

Now let us consider how the sun looks for someone at the North Pole. The furthest that the sun can possibly be away from the North Pole is 20,000 km, assuming it ever got near the southern ice wall. No FE maps show the sun that far south, but again, this is the best scenario for FE. Now, if the sun is 1,100 km high at a distance of 20,000 km, the angle between the horizon and the sun is given by simple trigonometry, as follows:

A = atan(1100/20000) = 3 degrees

If we assume the sun sits at an altitude of 6,400 km then we get

A = atan(6400/20000) = 18 degrees

In other words, even in the best (for FE) case, we can NEVER see the sun less than 3 degrees above the horizon. If the observer is farther south, or if we look at the sun at sunset instead of midnight, the observer will be closer to the sun, and hence the sun will appear even higher above the horizon.

Hence my question: please explain how we can ever see the sun sink below the horizon.

For people who live in the US (most FEers?) and do not understand my new-fangled metrics, here are (approximate) conversions:
20,000 km = 12,430 miles
6,400 km = 4,000 miles
1,100 km= 700 miles

Do your calculations assume that light always travels in straight lines?

(Yes, that is a rhetorical question.)

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robintex

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 09:33:19 AM »
I haven't seen any FE replies so far, so these are just some comments.
I have seen some comments that the moon and sun are only  15 KM above the earth.
Also that sunset is caused by the sun getting so far away that it gets so small that it can no longer be seen.
Sunrise is when the sun gets close enough and large enough to be seen.
Also that the sun "acts like a spotlight'' and just shines down in a circular pattern causing night and day.

Any comments, FE's ?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 09:44:12 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 09:47:08 AM »
I haven't seen any FE replies so far, so these are just some comments.
I have seen some comments that the moon and sun are only  15 KM above the earth.
Also that sunset is caused by the sun getting so far away that it gets so small that it can no longer be seen.
Sunrise is when the sun gets close enough and large enough to be seen.
Also that the sun "acts like a spotlight'' and just shines down in a circular pattern causing night and day.

Any comments, FE's ?
My favorite is how the sun just gets smaller.  How come if a plane takes off and I am viewing it from behind, it simply get smaller until it is too small for my naked eye, but it sure doesn't sink in the horizon?

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2019, 09:59:08 AM »
Apparently light bends. In a one gee gravitational field. Something special to do with the universal accelerator because.... well no one knows why, someone just thought it sounded good and made an evidenceless claim.

(Don't try and make your own evidenceless claim, such as the light is bent by a unicorns breath. Doing such a thing as a REer will get you banned for a few days)
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 10:09:37 AM »
Apparently light bends. In a one gee gravitational field. Something special to do with the universal accelerator because.... well no one knows why, someone just thought it sounded good and made an evidenceless claim.

(Don't try and make your own evidenceless claim, such as the light is bent by a unicorns breath. Doing such a thing as a REer will get you banned for a few days)
I do notice a lot how it is only Re's that get chastised for stupid posts...

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 10:42:43 AM »
Apparently light bends. In a one gee gravitational field. Something special to do with the universal accelerator because.... well no one knows why, someone just thought it sounded good and made an evidenceless claim.

Are you saying that on a sphere with a radius of 6300 km, a radial 1-g gravitational field at its surface, and a layer of gas that has a surface pressure of 1 bar and a scale height of 8.5 km light will always travel in a staright line, especially horizontally close to the surface?

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robintex

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2019, 12:14:17 PM »
Apparently light bends. In a one gee gravitational field. Something special to do with the universal accelerator because.... well no one knows why, someone just thought it sounded good and made an evidenceless claim.

(Don't try and make your own evidenceless claim, such as the light is bent by a unicorns breath. Doing such a thing as a REer will get you banned for a few days)
I do notice a lot how it is only Re's that get chastised for stupid posts...

Don't post in the Q&A section. Posting RE facts in the Q&A section will get you banned. Also if an RE posts FE ideas.
Q&A is apparently only for FE Questions and Answers by FE's only.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 02:26:43 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2019, 12:14:43 PM »
Apparently light bends. In a one gee gravitational field. Something special to do with the universal accelerator because.... well no one knows why, someone just thought it sounded good and made an evidenceless claim.

Are you saying that on a sphere with a radius of 6300 km, a radial 1-g gravitational field at its surface, and a layer of gas that has a surface pressure o :'(f 1 bar and a scale height of 8.5 km light will always travel in a staright line, especially horizontally close to the surface?

The one gee isn't going to make any difference that you would notice so we can discount that.

The atmosphere can have a refractive effect as the sun gets close to the horizon, but on a flat earth that isn't going to happen so we can discount that.

The universal accelerator... well we have no evidence of its existence, its nature or its ability to bend light so no point guessing its effects.

The unicorns breath... well we have no evidence of its existence, its nature or its ability to bend light so no point guessing its effects.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2019, 01:52:11 PM »
Have you looked into flat earther ideas about perspective?

It’ll blow you mind.

I don’t mean sudden enlightenment, here.  I mean it could fry your sense of logic and make you question if you really did read/watch what you think you did.

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robintex

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 02:21:38 PM »
Have you looked into flat earther ideas about perspective?

It’ll blow you mind.

I don’t mean sudden enlightenment, here.  I mean it could fry your sense of logic and make you question if you really did read/watch what you think you did.

I've read some of the flat earth wiki  and some of Rowbotham's " Earth Not A Globe."
I think one of the things on perspective is that the bottom of things , such as legs and feet of people and the hulls of ship get smaller than the upper parts of the body and the upper decks of a ship. (Which is the FE explanation for the ship passing over the horizon with the hull disappearing first. ) FE 's also say that if you look through a telescope you can return to view a ship which has passed over the horizon and  out of view.
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2019, 03:11:28 AM »
It's not even a matter of perspective. By my calculations, at sunset the sun stays at least 3 degrees above the horizon, and under most circumstances much more. Perspective or not, how can we possibly see the sun sink below the horizon?

Also, why is there no change in the apparent size of the sun between high noon at the equator or sunset in the Arctic? By their maps, the distances are very different.

Surely some FEer believes in their theory enough to attempt an answer? Or are they REALLY only interested in bullshitting?

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wise

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2019, 03:15:18 AM »
Perhaps since your thoughts are bullshit so that FE'rs don't interest to deal with your bullshits. Although we don't reply you it all you have started to insult by provocating youself. I don't have an idea if any of us start to reply your what will be your reaction other than more insulting.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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rabinoz

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2019, 03:27:36 AM »
Perhaps since your thoughts are bullshit so that FE'rs don't interest to deal with your bullshits. Although we don't reply you it all you have started to insult by provocating youself. I don't have an idea if any of us start to reply your what will be your reaction other than more insulting.
The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How about answering that instead of simply posting insults?

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wise

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2019, 03:51:27 AM »
Perhaps since your thoughts are bullshit so that FE'rs don't interest to deal with your bullshits. Although we don't reply you it all you have started to insult by provocating youself. I don't have an idea if any of us start to reply your what will be your reaction other than more insulting.
The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How about answering that instead of simply posting insults?
Ask it to him, not to me. I am not man who wait for an answer from others.

Surely some FEer believes in their theory enough to attempt an answer? Or are they REALLY only interested in bullshitting?

rab you can reply him, you are best on bullshitting. You are talking with me because trying to make me a part of this nonsence thread. I am out! You can share your bullshits each other here.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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rabinoz

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2019, 03:57:35 AM »
<< Nothing useful >>
You  can keep carry on as long as you like.

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JackBlack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2019, 02:23:38 PM »
It's not even a matter of perspective. By my calculations, at sunset the sun stays at least 3 degrees above the horizon, and under most circumstances much more. Perspective or not, how can we possibly see the sun sink below the horizon?
Could I ask how you calculated that angle?
If I recall correctly, when I did my calculations I came up with something more like 26 degrees and if you move where the sun was you get a minimum of roughly 13.

As for FEers, I think some genuinely believe, and reject any part of reality that shows them to be wrong.
I believe "wise" believes for religious reasons and out of hatred for the west.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2019, 03:17:51 AM »
Quote from: JackBlack on May 06, 2019, 02:23:28 PM
Quote
Could I ask how you calculated that angle?

I tried to use measurements that would give the smallest possible angle. With any more realistic ones I do indeed get much larger angles. For example, if the sun is 4000 km high, and you're viewing it from a (horizontal) distance of 4000 km, it would be seen to "set" 45 degrees high in the sky!

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2019, 03:22:44 AM »
Quote
Perhaps since your thoughts are bullshit so that FE'rs don't interest to deal with your bullshits. Although we don't reply you it all you have started to insult by provocating youself. I don't have an idea if any of us start to reply your what will be your reaction other than more insulting.
Thanks for the snarky reply @wise. I didn't really expect anything intelligent from you.

BTW, you might try using a spell (and grammar) checker.

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Souleon

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2019, 12:45:40 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=227&v=5tDbDhfK8rQ

In the FET sun set explanation the radius of the sun gets smaller (because it is moving away).
But in reality the radius of the sun does not change.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 01:29:07 PM by Souleon »
Facts that can be explained logically by FET and not by RE: None.

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wise

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2019, 01:19:14 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=227&v=5tDbDhfK8rQ

In the FET sun rise or set explanation the radius of the sun gets smaller (because it is moving away).
But in reality the radius of the sun does not change.

It has a formula. If you close to line of suns circle of rotation then you can clearly see its being dis apperance in horizon, as follow.

There are many discussings about videos in this category but I don't want to enter. Just I want you to know it, there are some videos show the radius of the sun appearently changes.





And this is one of the famous NASA backed flat earther researcher, Rob Skiba's model. He is clearly measuring the radious of the sun by comparing its shape setting and earlier of it; finds and proves it clearly changes.

1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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JackBlack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2019, 02:26:05 PM »
It has a formula.
Yes, there is a formula for its angular size for a FE, which is not obeyed with observations.

There are many discussings about videos
If you want to use a video, make sure you use an appropriate filter so you aren't just seeing the glare.

We have been over this before.
Again, do you think the sun magically changes size and jumps around?
If we accept your nonsense of the glare being the actual size of the sun then:
It goes from being behind the mountain here:

To jumping in front of it here:


We have it being nice and large here:

Only to shrink to a fraction of its size as a cloud gets in the way:


Your claims are pure nonsense.

If you want to use a video, you need to use a solar filter to make sure you are seeing the actual sun, rather than a bunch of glare.

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rabinoz

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2019, 09:27:24 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=227&v=5tDbDhfK8rQ

In the FET sun rise or set explanation the radius of the sun gets smaller (because it is moving away).
But in reality the radius of the sun does not change.
It has a formula. If you close to line of suns circle of rotation then you can clearly see its being dis apperance in horizon, as follow.
There are many discussings about videos in this category but I don't want to enter. Just I want you to know it, there are some videos show the radius of the sun appearently changes.
The Sun - Timelapse Compilation by Temponaut Timelapse
FLAT EARTH SUNSET TIME LAPSE by Max Eberle

And this is one of the famous NASA backed <<  ;D ::) ;D ::) ;D >> flat earther researcher, Rob Skiba's model. He is clearly measuring the radious of the sun by comparing its shape setting and earlier of it; finds and proves it clearly changes.
How the sun and moon work over the Flat Earth model by Rob Skiba
The first two videos are totally useless for showing the true sun size.
All they  show is serious flare due to the sun's intensity grossly over exposing the image near the sun - I thought you claimed to be "a scientist".

Here is a video by Matrix Decode who is also a flat earther but he knows how to photograph the sun properly!

Flat Earth - The Size Of The Sun by Matrix Decode

Quote from: Matrix Decode
Published on Mar 11, 2016
My experiment to observe the sun size through a welder´s lens. Video and Photography by Matrix Decode. Music : Future Sound Of London - The Wheel Of Life
The end of the video says:

The "sun does not appear to change size until just before the sun is about to set" - a then only a little in height!
Do I need to say more? Our kind Flat Earther, Matrix Decode, has said it all!

And then Rob Skiba IS NOT "one of the famous NASA backed flat earther researchers"! That is a total fabrication.
His video showing the sun getting smaller right on sunset is only a minute change an subject to error.
The flat earth sun should gradually reduce in size from a maximum when overhead to only about 1/3 that size near the horizon.

And Rob Skiba's part on the cause of the sun appearing to set because of all the water in the atmosphere causing "refraction" is simply incorrect!
  • The "water" in the atmosphere is as water vapour, which has a lower refractive index than air so it causes less refraction, not more!

  • The direction of refraction caused by the atmosphere normally makes the sun appear higher and not lower!

  • The amount of refraction caused by the atmosphere (dry or humid) is only tenths of a degree, NOT the 10° to 20° needed to make the sun appear to set behind the horizon.
So Rob Skiba's "How the sun and moon work over the Flat Earth model" is completely useless.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 04:35:24 AM by rabinoz »

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2019, 09:04:13 PM »
I looks as if I may as well give up expecting an answer to my question. It appears that FEers only reply with irrelevant points, or with their own "wisdom", as in the immortal words of @wise:
Quote
Perhaps since your thoughts are bullshit so that FE'rs don't interest to deal with your bullshits. Although we don't reply you it all you have started to insult by provocating youself. I don't have an idea if any of us start to reply your what will be your reaction other than more insulting.
And, for anyone who can't understand this mangled English, it's obviously because you're not as intelligent as @wise.

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wise

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2019, 11:22:11 PM »
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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rabinoz

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2019, 11:24:50 PM »
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How is your post relevant?

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wise

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2019, 11:49:59 PM »
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How is your post relevant?
The post is for upside post. How is your post relevant? Are you denier? Don't feel youself have to reply everything about me, you have not to. Are you doing it for me boring to talk you or boring to use this forum?

Why is so agressivity like a NAZI ? Are you all NASA workers meanwhile NAZI's?
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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Son of Orospu

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2019, 12:07:11 AM »
BTW, you might try using a spell (and grammar) checker.

There is nothing wrong with his spelling or grammar.  Everyone knows what wise is saying.  You seem to want to attack the man, rather than the debate. 

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rabinoz

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 12:17:50 AM »
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How is your post relevant?
The post is for upside post. How is your post relevant?
I posted a simply and obvious question "The topic is "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" How is your post relevant?"
And all you can do is to be insulting.

So now reply to the OP
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website.

From what I have been able to gather, the earth is a flat circular disc with a diameter of approximately 20,000 km. I get to this number by assuming that the equator is 10,000 km from the North Pole, and the southern ice wall is the same distance from the equator. At least, that is how your published maps look.

On this website I have seen various figures for the altitude of the sun, ranging from 1,100 km to 6,400 km. For the rest of this question I will assume 1,100 km as that is the best case for FE; any higher figure makes sunset even more impossible.
And answer "How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?" If you have no "flat earth" answer, why are you posting in this thread?

You gave an answer in, How is it possible to see the sun rise or set? « Reply #20 on: May 08, 2019, 06:19:14 AM » but that was just a video by Rob Skiba that had been proven incorrect long ago.

Then you post silly stuff like:
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
If you have no answer, say so!

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JackBlack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 12:18:19 AM »
So you are alt of somebody denying to continue the discussing, but insulting instead, right?
Are you suggesting he is your alt?
If not, how about you address the issue?

Again, your videos relying upon glare do not show the real size of the sun unless you wish to claim the sun magically jumps in front of mountains and magically shrinks when a cloud gets in the way?