Navigation tools disprove flat earth

Karaka

14

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2019, 06:05:45 PM »

okay thanks for the replies.

I'm in no way a flat earther, I wrote the OP. I just do not think it is ever appropriate to be 100% certain of anything, that's dogmatism and that's what open minded people need to avoid. It is fine to have overwhelming confidence on a subject for the right reasons, but it is essential to keep open the possibility that one is mistaken. doubt is intellectually healthy. that's all i meant by my quip about certainty. you answered it adequately.

I'm here mostly to see what's going on, and i posted the OP on this forum thinking that a bit of clear headed debunking could be read by people coming here to look for information and who would benefit from finding something else than FE nonsense to latch onto. the subsequent discussion also should reflect the gap between flat earthers and round earthers, so that anonymous readers lurking in the background can judge for themselves who makes the most sense. that is why i tried to stay on topic and stay cordial and avoid direct attacks. i don't think they help in any way. better to let flat earther a chance to explain themselves, i think that's damning enough...

the spread of flat earth theory in this day and age is utterly baffling to me and seem to reflect a serious mental issue, such as an inability to assess cognitive dissonance and an extreme doxastic closeness. By all evidence, debating facts with flat earthers doesn't work, some evidently get a kick from the attention and from the confrontation. What i'm trying to achieve here is to find out if there might be a better way to address flat earthers than direct debate like you guys are doing, in case I ever encounter one in real life. this is a practice run for me. I know from experience that socratic dialogue focused on epistemology is the most effective way to deconvert people from cults and extreme religious fundamentalism, by instilling a shadow of doubt to the believer regarding the justification for belief, by respectfully demonstrating that 100% certainty is never warranted, you force them to re evaluate the core reasons why they believe, you expose to them their cognitive dissonance. The personal process that follows in their attempt to answer that doubt is sometimes enough to completely unravel the whole structure of erroneous belief. So I'm trying it out on flat earthers here. With little success admittedly, because i haven't been able to establish a dialogue with one yet. Sandhokan still hasn't answered my question.

so, sandhokan, wise and the others, if you are confident in being correct, you have nothing to lose in answering honestly, my questions only aims at revealing truth, whatever it is. if you are correct, a socratic dialogue will reveal it. this is your chance to shine and elevate the level of your arguments. if you are not interested in knowing what is true, then what is the point of debating here? are you trying to spread what you consider truth, or are you just trolling? everything so far points to you just trolling, so defend yourselves and show us that is not the case or lose your last shreds of credibility...

for the anti flat earthers, I see some of you guys posted thousands of times here. this, by all evidence, is your hobby. and then i see what you are posting on this thread, and in all due respect, i feel there is room for improvement in your approach to achieve your goal of stoping BS from spreading. I haven't seen any of you try to address the core problem in their reasoning: epistemology, the flaws in how they reach their conclusions. That's an avenue worth exploring, don't you think, since it doesn't seem pummeling them with facts has any impact, no matter how much fun you derive from it.

Have you guys heard of street epistemology? I think you might find it an interesting and effective approach to address flat earthers, even the very far gone : https://streetepistemology.com/
it's pretty fun to do AND it is effective...
It's probably better one on one than as a forum thread though...

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2019, 08:45:47 PM »

Quote from: Karaka on March 25, 2019, 06:05:45 PM

okay thanks for the replies.

I'm in no way a flat earther, I wrote the OP. I just do not think it is ever appropriate to be 100% certain of anything, that's dogmatism and that's what open minded people need to avoid. It is fine to have overwhelming confidence on a subject for the right reasons, but it is essential to keep open the possibility that one is mistaken. doubt is intellectually healthy. that's all i meant by my quip about certainty. you answered it adequately.

I'm here mostly to see what's going on, and i posted the OP on this forum thinking that a bit of clear headed debunking could be read by people coming here to look for information and who would benefit from finding something else than FE nonsense to latch onto. the subsequent discussion also should reflect the gap between flat earthers and round earthers, so that anonymous readers lurking in the background can judge for themselves who makes the most sense. that is why i tried to stay on topic and stay cordial and avoid direct attacks. i don't think they help in any way. better to let flat earther a chance to explain themselves, i think that's damning enough...

the spread of flat earth theory in this day and age is utterly baffling to me and seem to reflect a serious mental issue, such as an inability to assess cognitive dissonance and an extreme doxastic closeness. By all evidence, debating facts with flat earthers doesn't work, some evidently get a kick from the attention and from the confrontation. What i'm trying to achieve here is to find out if there might be a better way to address flat earthers than direct debate like you guys are doing, in case I ever encounter one in real life. this is a practice run for me. I know from experience that socratic dialogue focused on epistemology is the most effective way to deconvert people from cults and extreme religious fundamentalism, by instilling a shadow of doubt to the believer regarding the justification for belief, by respectfully demonstrating that 100% certainty is never warranted, you force them to re evaluate the core reasons why they believe, you expose to them their cognitive dissonance. The personal process that follows in their attempt to answer that doubt is sometimes enough to completely unravel the whole structure of erroneous belief. So I'm trying it out on flat earthers here. With little success admittedly, because i haven't been able to establish a dialogue with one yet. Sandhokan still hasn't answered my question.

so, sandhokan, wise and the others, if you are confident in being correct, you have nothing to lose in answering honestly, my questions only aims at revealing truth, whatever it is. if you are correct, a socratic dialogue will reveal it. this is your chance to shine and elevate the level of your arguments. if you are not interested in knowing what is true, then what is the point of debating here? are you trying to spread what you consider truth, or are you just trolling? everything so far points to you just trolling, so defend yourselves and show us that is not the case or lose your last shreds of credibility...

for the anti flat earthers, I see some of you guys posted thousands of times here. this, by all evidence, is your hobby. and then i see what you are posting on this thread, and in all due respect, i feel there is room for improvement in your approach to achieve your goal of stoping BS from spreading. I haven't seen any of you try to address the core problem in their reasoning: epistemology, the flaws in how they reach their conclusions. That's an avenue worth exploring, don't you think, since it doesn't seem pummeling them with facts has any impact, no matter how much fun you derive from it.

Have you guys heard of street epistemology? I think you might find it an interesting and effective approach to address flat earthers, even the very far gone : https://streetepistemology.com/
it's pretty fun to do AND it is effective...
It's probably better one on one than as a forum thread though...

I started out somewhat in the same manner as you have done.
I tried posting on a subject of which I knew.
But usually got no replies, some rather stupid or funny answers, or just "derailing " by going off on a tangent on a non-related subject.
So there is really no point in trying to educate FE's.
I have tried to abandon this website many times , but I guess it's just a matter of addiction to see what the FE's are going to dream up next.

But I began to realize that maybe that quote you see on the internet might be right.
"The Flat Earth Society is either one big hoax or one big joke."

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Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

Bullwinkle

The Elder Ones
21053
Standard Idiot

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2019, 08:59:28 PM »

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 25, 2019, 08:45:47 PM

So there is really no point in trying to educate FE's.

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Tom Foolery

141

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2019, 12:36:00 AM »

Quote from: Karaka on March 25, 2019, 06:05:45 PM

I just do not think it is ever appropriate to be 100% certain of anything,

I agree, that's why I had originally phrased it as "About 100%...": Where I come from, we use the word "About" like "Approximately" or "Nearly."
If I'd meant a full 100%, I'd have said "Exactly 100%" or "At least 100%."

Quote

in case I ever encounter one in real life.

That's how I got into it, met one in real life. This is perfect training. This is exactly what they are like in real life.

Quote

I know from experience that socratic dialogue focused on epistemology is the most effective way to deconvert people from cults and extreme religious fundamentalism, by instilling a shadow of doubt to the believer regarding the justification for belief, by respectfully demonstrating that 100% certainty is never warranted, you force them to re evaluate the core reasons why they believe

That is the *exact* reason flat earthers exist. The entire process is exactly as you described it. There is no proof for a flat earth, but that's not what brings about the belief: It is done by installing a shadow of doubt in NASA and all scientists and everything they were taught, until they evaluate their core reasons for believing in a round earth and they realize that it's just a faith and not a science because they don't know how to measure it so they abandon believing in round earth -- only to then believe in a flat earth.

Mark Sargent, a prominent youtube flat earther, says in his video:

"It's not that I can prove a flat earth in a court of law, but I can create so much reasonable doubt in the globe model that you have nowhere else to turn, but the flat earth model"
(Flat Earth Q&A Emails 114 Mark Sargent, 4:35)

He has literally published hundreds of hours of video simply creating doubt in all things that the 99% of people use as an authority on believing that the earth spherical.

So I really don't know if your approach is going to help because they've already been through it once to get to flat earth, and I think it inoculates them against the approach.

Quote

... i haven't been able to establish a dialogue with one yet.

You won't establish a dialogue with one. I've been trying.
Only the inexperienced ones -- the ones that don't really know the arguments -- will engage you. The experienced ones already know they will come up short on reason.

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rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2019, 03:28:14 AM »

Quote from: Tom Foolery on March 26, 2019, 12:36:00 AM

So I really don't know if your approach is going to help because they've already been through it once to get to flat earth, and I think it inoculates them against the approach.
Quote
... i haven't been able to establish a dialogue with one yet.
You won't establish a dialogue with one. I've been trying.
Only the inexperienced ones -- the ones that don't really know the arguments -- will engage you. The experienced ones already know they will come up short on reason.

The most you can do to "convert" a flat earther is to plant seeds of doubt in their mind but don't expect a dialogue, though there are exceptions.

I know personally of only two that were hard hitting YouTube Flat-Earthers and have dropped their belief in the Elat-Earth.
In both cases they "changed themselves" by their own experiments or investigations.
One of these is cikljamas, the one who started the SMOKING GUN thread. Cikljamas performed some experiments and convinced himself of the earth's curvature.
As noted from that SMOKING GUN thread cikljamas is now believes that the Globe is stationary and in the centre of the Universe.

The other was TigerDan925 who started this series of videos: Precise to scale Flat earth Map coming. pt 1 by TigerDan925

TigerDan925 finally convinced himself that an accurate FE map was impossible and Antarctica could not be a ring around the outside.
He decided that the whole idea of a flat earth was impossible: Flat earth could be a big deception? Liars Scared. MAP SCAM exposed!!! by TigerDan925.
This leads on to a series of videos: Flat Earth Deception Part 2. Exposing Myself & others by TigerDan925.
But these "convinced themselves" though possibly triggered by some doubt raised by someone - who knows?

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Karaka

14

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2019, 06:23:22 AM »

okay, i see.

what i'm talking about though, is slightly different. It is not about conclusions and facts, their interpretation, their debunking or lack of veracity, it is about assessing the method to reach a conclusion that something is true, it is about epistemology. It is radically different in that it doesn't focus on the conclusions, but on the method to reach those conclusions. if the debate is about conclusions, it goes nowhere, as you guys correctly point out, but if we can agree on a reliable method to reach a conclusion, or that a method used to reach a conclusion is unreliable and can be replaced by a better one, then we can have flat earthers to determine what is true or not using the more reliable method. if you can show a flat earther that his method is invalid or unreliable to find out what is true, he will possibly reconsider his conclusions in this light and quickly realize he was mistaken.

i disagree with tom here that they are immune to this approach because they have already gone through the process. what they have gone through is the process of having doubt instilled in a conclusion they didn't know how to support, and then abandoning that conclusion because of a lack of reliable way to find out if it is true or not after all. Then they have used an unreliable method to reach a new conclusion, flat earth, that is completely absurd and untrue. the problem they have is not what conclusion they adopt, it is how they adopt it. that is why they abandoned round earth to start with. if your confidence in round earth was so weak that you abandoned the concept upon watching a youtube video, then you didn't have a valid method to determine what is true or not. that same faulty method led you to adopt flat earth to fill the gap in your worldview of not being confident what shape the earth is, because some youtubers made a convincing video. the problem is still the method you use to reach your conclusions, and it is this very problem that needs to be addressed in flat earthers. It is the core of the matter. a socratic dialogue can help, given you can start one of course.
I really don't see why it wouldn't work on flat earthers. it works for cults, flat earth theory is a sort of cult, really.

Anyway, i had hoped to engage flat earthers here but it doesn't look like it is happening. I hope at least to have aroused the anti flat earthers' curiosity as to this method. i think there is potential...

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JackBlack

21703

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2019, 01:07:10 PM »

Quote from: Karaka on March 26, 2019, 06:23:22 AM

the problem they have is not what conclusion they adopt, it is how they adopt it. that is why they abandoned round earth to start with.

Which was primarily based upon paranoia and ignorance.
They didn't understand the evidence that clearly shows Earth is round, and decided to abandon it and pretend that it is all a lie from the government trying to control you.

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2019, 02:28:36 PM »

Quote from: JackBlack on March 26, 2019, 01:07:10 PM

Quote from: Karaka on March 26, 2019, 06:23:22 AM
the problem they have is not what conclusion they adopt, it is how they adopt it. that is why they abandoned round earth to start with.
Which was primarily based upon paranoia and ignorance.
They didn't understand the evidence that clearly shows Earth is round, and decided to abandon it and pretend that it is all a lie from the government trying to control you.

This is mainly directed to Karaka and BlackJack.......as well as any other RE's

I just checked my profile and found I have been a contributor for six years now.
And I am certainly no FE. That is one thing of which I am certain. Most definitely a RE !

But I have formed some opinions ( a lot of which I may not be so certain .....LOL )
This Website and the FES are just another spoof website and just another spoof "Society ".
Never attempt an "intelligent dialogue" with any FE.
I am certain you may have noticed that by now. LOL
So I just visit this website for the entertainment .

But also for a lot of valuable RE facts, figures and information of all sorts.

Just a few comments from my first attempt.
This concerned the "Ham Radio Moonbounce Operation" (How some Amateur Radio Amateur Operators "bounced" radio signals off the moon and while not the main aim of the "Operation" found they could calculate the distance from the Earth to the moon by
simply multiplying the speed of radio waves times the time it took to receive the signals back on earth.)

A few of the FE comments were . :

" A ham in his shack talking to truckers couldn't do this !" Ham radio operators are licensed by their government and must obey certain rules of ethics. On the other hand a few unlicensed CB (Citizens Band ) engage in illegal operations and give "CB" a bad name , especially to hams." Hey , CB'ers , Don't get me wrong ! A lot more good goes on CB than bad ! Ask any camper or RV group. I have listened to a lot of CB.

"It would take an antenna the size of a football field to do this." Hams use VHF and UHF , very short "short waves"' , which result in very short antenna elements - some very elaborate antennas are smaller than a bed spring. Some are no larger than a. TV. antenna.

"Radio waves slow down on the way to the moon." No comment . That's news to me .LOL

Horizon on a flat Earth was another failed attempt at dialogue.

Photography and cartography are also FE areas of ignorance or understanding.

There are lots of other examples to be found on these forums.

Karaka
If you are a true sea captain, my old USN "white hat" is doffed to you !
As I have said repeatedly I was in the USN but I was never a sailor.
We never would have made it to Iwakuni from San Diego and back without true sailors like you !
If you are not a real sea captain but are just pretending to be one, don't worry .
There are a few FE's pretending to be geniuses .
Just join in on the fun with the rest of us RE's .LOL

Meanwhile back to "on topic" and FE .

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:39:25 PM by Googleotomy »

Logged

Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2019, 08:19:21 PM »

Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM

There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

That's NOT a map!

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2019, 09:37:58 PM »

Quote from: rabinoz on March 26, 2019, 08:19:21 PM

Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

That's NOT a map!

Aside from the fact that it makes no sense.......Unless the wise Mr. Wise can explain it.
It looks like just a bit of hodge-podge to me. Nothing like a real map. Even Sandokhan's map has a semblance to a real map in comparison.

Logged

Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

JackBlack

21703

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2019, 11:27:08 PM »

To be fair, Wise's map is at least a somewhat decent diagram.

Instead of focusing on the outline of the continents he focuses on the city locations.

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Karaka

14

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2019, 12:29:40 AM »

To be fair, Mr Wise thing here is technically a map, a crude one but it has a frame of reference and the locations of cities. It is a concentric one centered on the north pole, that's called an azimuthal equidistant polar projection. It might even be fairly accurate because he probably copied it from some flight navigation software I suspect and just added "border Earth on the side to make it a flat earth map. In no way does it support flat Earth, but fair is fair, it's a map.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection

the interesting thing is that you can draw the same on a south pole projection, like this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Southern_Hemi_Antarctica.png

or anywhere on the globe really.
Here is an example of application:

In the case of radio, this projection allows for directional antenna aiming, especially in the case of HF communications. An operator can point the antenna, usually by an electric rotator, simply locating the target in the map and rotating the antenna to the angle indicated by the map. The map should be centered as nearly as possible to the actual antenna location

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 12:40:21 AM by Karaka »

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wise

Professor
Flat Earth Scientist
25446
The Only Yang Scholar in The Ying Universe

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2019, 12:51:43 AM »

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 26, 2019, 09:37:58 PM

Quote from: rabinoz on March 26, 2019, 08:19:21 PM
Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

That's NOT a map!

Aside from the fact that it makes no sense.......Unless the wise Mr. Wise can explain it.
It looks like just a bit of hodge-podge to me. Nothing like a real map. Even Sandokhan's map has a semblance to a real map in comparison.

It is a map, just has not borders for lands and oceans. But you can find position of cities more accurate than maps show the borders. Because you can find center of cities without any unnecessary details.

On the other hand, this map has created after examined about 100.000 flights. few inaccurate flights that do not fit into the general flights are not considered. the existence of these invalid flights could not be confirmed in any way. their existence is just a claim. such as claiming that a company went to the moon and taking it into account. in such a case we would like a video of it.

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1+2+3+...+∞= 1

Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 02, 2024, 08:12:35 PM

Come on bro, just admit that the the earth isn't a sphere, you won't even be wrong

wise

Professor
Flat Earth Scientist
25446
The Only Yang Scholar in The Ying Universe

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2019, 01:24:48 AM »

Quote from: inquisitive on March 25, 2019, 07:01:57 AM

Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
Quote from: inquisitive on March 25, 2019, 06:21:54 AM
Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
Sorry, you've not existed earlier so that I could not followed what you said before.

There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

Is Sydney to Johannesburg correct?

Surely, correct. If somebody took camera to that flight then we can examine why it is still correct. We are talking about reality. This map is real, but some flights are imaginary. This map has been verified by flights more than 100000
Yes you have no proof that any flights are imaginary. Why would they be?

Absence does not need proof, because absence is permanent and consistent but claiming of existance needs proof.

Logged

1+2+3+...+∞= 1

Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 02, 2024, 08:12:35 PM

Come on bro, just admit that the the earth isn't a sphere, you won't even be wrong

rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2019, 01:32:04 AM »

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 12:51:43 AM

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 26, 2019, 09:37:58 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on March 26, 2019, 08:19:21 PM
Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

That's NOT a map!

Aside from the fact that it makes no sense.......Unless the wise Mr. Wise can explain it.
It looks like just a bit of hodge-podge to me. Nothing like a real map. Even Sandokhan's map has a semblance to a real map in comparison.

It is a map, just has not borders for lands and oceans. But you can find position of cities more accurate than maps show the borders. Because you can find center of cities without any unnecessary details.

On the other hand, this map has created after examined about 100.000 flights. few inaccurate flights that do not fit into the general flights are not considered. the existence of these invalid flights could not be confirmed in any way. their existence is just a claim. such as claiming that a company went to the moon and taking it into account. in such a case we would like a video of it.

In other words you ignored all flights from QANTAS, New Zealand Airlines, LATAM Airlines, South African Airlines.
As a result of ignoring those flights your "maps" shows totally incorrect distances between: South America and South Africa, South America and Australia and between Australia and South America.

In case you didn't know the flight distance between Beijing and Los Angeles is a bit further than from Auckland, New Zealand to Santiago, Chile.

Try that on your map!

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rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2019, 01:37:42 AM »

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 01:24:48 AM

Absence does not need proof, because absence is permanent and consistent but claiming of existance needs proof.

OK! I claim that there is no dome and YOU claim the existence of the dome. So YOU prove the existence of the dome or admit that it does not exist.

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wise

Professor
Flat Earth Scientist
25446
The Only Yang Scholar in The Ying Universe

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2019, 01:39:40 AM »

Quote from: inquisitive on March 25, 2019, 07:01:57 AM

Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
Quote from: inquisitive on March 25, 2019, 06:21:54 AM
Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
Sorry, you've not existed earlier so that I could not followed what you said before.

There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

Is Sydney to Johannesburg correct?

Surely, correct. If somebody took camera to that flight then we can examine why it is still correct. We are talking about reality. This map is real, but some flights are imaginary. This map has been verified by flights more than 100000
Yes you have no proof that any flights are imaginary. Why would they be?

I want to give an example about absence does not need proof. I did not go NY at all, I did not go London, Sao Paola and Chicago too. I did not go any of USA or Canadian cities at all too. And I don't need to prove them, because absent. Both this events are absent so proof is absent too. But I've gone to Moscow, Beijing and Tehran and I can prove this. I can prove this by my flight tickets, by my videos in Moscow square, and photos and video evidences in Beijing, so and so. We can discuss on exist evidences about this valid events, but there is nothing to do about absent things. Like flights from Australia to southern somewhere. I can prove flights between NY to Moscow, because they are exist. I can do it by tickets, sheduled flights and videos. We can prove them every kind of evidences. But you can not prove the existance of flights of Perth to Johannesburg, or Sydney to Santiago. Because they are absent. If it would exist, so it would have a real time flight video. They have claimed numereous times and disproved numereous time. But you can not disprove a real time video between Moscow to NY, or Beijing to NY, because they are exist. Like this. Simple to get, but simple to get for people have mind. For globularists, it is hard to get because they have prejudice of their existance. science should be impartial and without prejectures. otherwise, science is no longer a science, it turns into dogmas and beliefs.

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1+2+3+...+∞= 1

Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 02, 2024, 08:12:35 PM

Come on bro, just admit that the the earth isn't a sphere, you won't even be wrong

rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2019, 02:16:52 AM »

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 01:39:40 AM

Quote from: inquisitive on March 25, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
Yes you have no proof that any flights are imaginary. Why would they be?
But you can not prove the existance of flights of Perth to Johannesburg, or Sydney to Santiago. Because they are absent. If it would exist, so it would have a real time flight video.

No, Wise, the "flights of Perth to Johannesburg, or Sydney to Santiago" are very real and no huffing or puffing by you or anybody else will prove otherwise.

There are also real flights Sao Paolo to/from Johannesburg, Johannesburg to/from Sydney and Aukland to/from Buenos Aries.

And there is absolutely no truth in your claim that "If it would exist, so it would have a real time flight video" - why "would have a real time flight video".

That is just your excuse for ignoring all those flights that prove that your map is wrong.

Quote from: wise

They have claimed numereous times and disproved numereous time.

No! They have never been disproved because they are real flights and well over a million passengers have flown those routes.

Quote from: wise

But you can not disprove a real time video between Moscow to NY, or Beijing to NY, because they are exist. Like this. Simple to get, but simple to get for people have mind. For globularists, it is hard to get because they have prejudice of their existance. science should be impartial and without prejectures. otherwise, science is no longer a science, it turns into dogmas and beliefs.

Yes, "science should be impartial and without prejectures. otherwise, science is no longer a science, it turns into dogmas and beliefs"
but your "science" is everywhere tainted by your "dogmas and beliefs" about the shape of the earth.

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Karaka

14

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2019, 08:45:16 AM »

wonderful, a testable hypothesis from Mr Wise!

Mr Wise, you claim those southern flights do not exist.
You can test that hypothesis scientifically. Just buy yourself a seat on one of those flights.
here is a link: https://www.fly-scanner.com/us/flights/results/PER-JNB/2019-04-03/0/1-0-0?sid=FUS3_5c9b983679c38

Why didn't anybody think about this earlier? So simple.

If that's too much money for you, though, just do a crowdfunding among your flat earther friends, after all you would be collecting valuable evidence, you would get back up.

Make sure you take a phone with a good GPS with you, a timer, multiple cameras, anything you deem necessary to check you really flew between those two places.
And then you'll know! how great is that? no need to debate about it, you can find out for yourself.

Now, Mr wise, I have a simple question for you:

If you took that flight, recorded it and determined to your satisfaction that it was indeed a 8300km flight, as predicted by round earth theory and not an 18300 km flights, as per your hypothesis, would it lower your confidence that the earth was flat?

Is derived my distance estimates from this website: http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Distances+on+Globe+and+Flat+Earth

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Platonius21

749

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2019, 10:42:32 AM »

Wise's "map" cannot represent a flat earth because it does not have a constant scale throughout

As you can see the distance to the "Edge" is shown as 18,100 (km?) which on my screen is a distance of 491 pixels

That means the distance of 180 pixels to the first radius should correspond to a distance of 6634 --not 5806 as shown on the "map".

The scale is not constant! The "map" is rubbish.

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JackBlack

21703

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2019, 01:45:36 PM »

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 12:51:43 AM

On the other hand, this map has created after examined about 100.000 flights. few inaccurate flights that do not fit into the general flights are not considered. the existence of these invalid flights could not be confirmed in any way. their existence is just a claim. such as claiming that a company went to the moon and taking it into account. in such a case we would like a video of it.

Yes that is right, you just reject flights which show your map to be wrong.
But no, they aren't just a claim.
There is plenty of evidence to show these flights are real, just as much as some of the flights you accept. The only reason you reject them is because they destroy your map.

You have been provided plenty of evidence that these flights are real and you have literally nothing to show they are fake.

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 01:39:40 AM

If it would exist, so it would have a real time flight video.

Stop lying.
A flight existing doesn't magically mean there will be a real time video of it.
You have been asked to provide such videos for all flights you have used, and have been completely unable to do so.
So that is clearly not your standard of evidence.
Your standard of evidence is if it agrees with your wild ideas.

Quote from: Platonius21 on March 27, 2019, 10:42:32 AM

As you can see the distance to the "Edge" is shown as 18,100 (km?) which on my screen is a distance of 491 pixels

You misread.
It is 16100 not 18100.
It is also a lot easier to do it on a horizontal or vertical line.
The red circle you used has a radius of 177 pixels, the yellow one is 492.
This works out to be 32.80362 units per pixel and 32.72358 units per pixel.
If we take the midpoint between and say it is 32.7636 per pixel, we should have a radius of 177.2162 and 491.399.
So I would say it is fairly well to scale using those 2 circles.

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Platonius21

749

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2019, 04:44:24 PM »

Heh -- yeah it looked like 18100.

It makes no difference about the quality of the "map". Using the calipers the distance from Perth to Vancouver is 392 pixels, corresponding to an actual distance of 14826 km for a ratio of 38.8 km/pixel

And the distance from Perth-Santiago measures 656 pixels corresponding to an actual distance of 12711km for a ratio of 19.38 km / pixel

38.8 km/pixel versus 19.38 km/pixel for two different measurements on the map.

The scale is not constant. The "map" is rubbish.

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Karaka

14

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2019, 06:10:01 PM »

guys, what are you talking about?

this is an azymutal equidistant projection, just like the one on the UN flag. it is supposed to be distorted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection#/media/File:Comparison_azimuthal_projections.svg

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Platonius21

749

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2019, 06:54:17 PM »

Quote from: Karaka on March 27, 2019, 06:10:01 PM

this is an azymutal equidistant projection, just like the one on the UN flag. it is supposed to be distorted:

A true map of a flat earth on a flat sheet of paper would have no distortion. If it's distorted and without a constant scale, it is not a map of a flat earth.

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2019, 08:02:40 PM »

Quote from: wise on March 24, 2019, 09:05:06 AM

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 24, 2019, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: wise on March 24, 2019, 07:46:39 AM
You're wrong.

How and why ?

Because globularist gang says there is magnetic declination affects the compasses. So that globularist map is wrong. But flat earth maps do not consider the magnetic declinations are true.

So that navigation tools mean nothing. Using navigation tools many ships disappeared in oceans. This man either says lie that high possible, or will disappear in a day somewhere in southern oceans.

Magnetic declination is something that must be taken into account in the real world.

I have a copy of an old map of the County of Dallas in the State of Texas. The Magnetic Declination for the year that the map was published is shown on the map. These maps are correct.

The majority of ships arrive and depart from their appointed seaports. And they use all kinds of navigation tools. Those that are lost are not lost by navigation tools, but are lost by many other reasons .....human error , storms , damage to the ship, etc.

It might be argued that navigation tools disprove flat earth, but it certainly can be proved that navigation tools prove that the earth is a globe.
It is proven on a. 24/7 basis by ships everywhere every day !

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:55:01 PM by Googleotomy »

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Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2019, 08:27:03 PM »

Quote from: Karaka on March 27, 2019, 06:10:01 PM

guys, what are you talking about?

this is an azymutal equidistant projection, just like the one on the UN flag. it is supposed to be distorted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection#/media/File:Comparison_azimuthal_projections.svg

This is just one of many maps which FE tries to palm off as a flat map , mainly because it shows Antarctica as the so-called ''ice ring'' due to the extreme distortion present on this map south of the equator.

As has been pointed out on previous post the Bi-Polar Projection has also been presented as the flat earth map because it shows Antarctica as a Continent. But it presents all kinds of other problems.

There is no accurate flat Earth map because.......The earth is not a flat Earth........the earth is a globe.
The earth is a 3D object and any attempt to make a 2D flat map is going to introduce some distortion in some areas .
Any "Projection" is going to have some distortion in some areas.
Look at the size of Greenland on the Mercator Projection.
Look at the size and shape of Australia on the Unipolar and Bi-Polar Projections.
And look at the distortion on any "Projection" flat map made from the globe !

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:50:30 PM by Googleotomy »

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Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

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robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2019, 09:07:58 PM »

Quote from: wise on March 27, 2019, 12:51:43 AM

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 26, 2019, 09:37:58 PM
Quote from: rabinoz on March 26, 2019, 08:19:21 PM
Quote from: wise on March 25, 2019, 06:11:26 AM
There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0

That's NOT a map!

Aside from the fact that it makes no sense.......Unless the wise Mr. Wise can explain it.
It looks like just a bit of hodge-podge to me. Nothing like a real map. Even Sandokhan's map has a semblance to a real map in comparison.

It is a map, just has not borders for lands and oceans. But you can find position of cities more accurate than maps show the borders. Because you can find center of cities without any unnecessary details.

On the other hand, this map has created after examined about 100.000 flights. few inaccurate flights that do not fit into the general flights are not considered. the existence of these invalid flights could not be confirmed in any way. their existence is just a claim. such as claiming that a company went to the moon and taking it into account. in such a case we would like a video of it.

With all due apologies and respect to you, wise , your map certainly shows that you spent a lot of time and a lot of effort in its making.

But it would have been a little less confusing if you had just drawn in the shapes of the continents.

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Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

?

robintex

Ranters
5322

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2019, 10:28:50 PM »

Question for Sandokhan :
Would you explain the sea route for San Diego to Yokosuka on your map ?

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Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never, ever go to sea !

Username

Administrator
17671
President of The Flat Earth Society

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2019, 11:00:38 PM »

Why don't you google it google.com.

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rabinoz

26528
Real Earth Believer

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth

« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2019, 11:36:23 PM »

Quote from: John Davis on March 27, 2019, 11:00:38 PM

Why don't you google it google.com.

I doubt even google.com knows the answer to "What is the sea route San Diego to Yokosuka on Sandokhan's map"?

Preferred variant of the Bi-polar map of Flat Earth
proponent "sandokhan"

But, I tried it and all I got were references to unanswered questions on this site.

And I'd like to know the flight path of a plane from Honolulu to Fiji on that map because Kingsford Smith flew that in 1928.
This is Kingsford Smith's whole route from USA to Australia in 1928.

Just give a thought to navigating over that route from Oakland, CA to Brisbane, QLD in 1928, landing only at Hawaii, Fiji and Brisbane.
Copies of the original charts are still available, complete with coffee stains and smudges.

The whole crossing from Oakland to Brisbane was 11,585 kilometre and the flying time was 83 hours and 50 minutes.

It is such a pity that the great flat earth scientist, Sandokhan, was not available in 1928 to tell Charles Kingsford Smith that such a flight was quite impossible given the limited range of the Southern Cross.

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