Navigation tools disprove flat earth

Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.

I have looked into your wiki and apart from some stuff about compasses, you do not address this flagrant flaw in your reasoning. My claim here is that you can prove to yourself that the Earth is round by learning to navigate on it. Navigating at sea and staying safe requires precision. Math and geometry don't lie. I have yet to meet a sailor or a navigator who believes the Earth is flat.

Please let me elaborate with a few examples:

Celestial navigation is about measuring angles from stars and planets in the sky to the horizon and inferring from those angles a triangulation of your position. The math is complicated because it needs to take into account the roundness of the planet, using spherical trigonometry. If Earth was flat, the math would be much simpler. Not only the math would be wrong if you used spherical trigonometry to navigate a flat earth and you would not know where you are, but frankly what kind of masochist would do spherical trigonometry at sea on a rocking boat if he didn't absolutely have to? Celestial navigation disproves flat earth. If you do not believe me, just learn celestial navigation and use it, you'll find out for yourself. If you assume a round earth, it works, if you assume a flat earth, it doesn't.

Stars used for celestial navigation are distinctly different in the northern and southern hemisphere in a way that is consistent with a round earth. You'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to make it coherent with a flat earth model.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math. The principle of GPS could work on a flat earth and we wouldn't know since we are not doing the math ourselves, but the thing with GPS is that it only works in line of sight. You do not get signal from a GPS satellite that is below the horizon. To work everywhere, it needs a minimum of about 24 satellites, otherwise there are areas of the globe that are not covered. On a flat earth, 3 or 4 satellites would be enough as you would have line of sight to them anywhere on the map.

Navigators monitor closely the distance they cover and the speed they go, using various means, including mechanical ones that cannot possibly be biased by a conspiracy as a GPS signal could be for example. Sometimes, using the navigating technique known as dead reckoning, we use only our speed to measure how far we've gone. As a result of personally monitoring distances all over the planet, I can say with confidence that distances around the globe are consistent with a round earth. For example the distance between Africa and South America at 25 south latitude is roughly 3200nm while the distance at 25 North latitude between Africa and the Bahamas is also roughly 3200nm, as expected with a round earth and from my sea charts. Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong. That is simply not the case. Assuming similar conditions, it takes about the same amount of time to sail across the north Atlantic than it does to sail across the south.

As a matter of fact, because the southern ocean is open all the way round, this is the route for solo non stop round the world sailing races. The current sailing record is just over 42 days (amazing, really...), sailing at an average of 27.2 knots over 27,859.7 nautical miles. This is consistent with a round Earth, not with a flat Earth. There is no way a boat doing a max speed of about 35 knots could go around flat earth non stop in 42 days. Do the math yourself using whatever distances your flat earth model say the southern ocean should be. And keep in mind these are closely monitored races with high stakes in glory and fortune for the winners, followed by millions on TV. No cheating possible.

So, to recap, if you are passionate about truth and yet for some reason believe the earth is flat, I encourage you to learn celestial navigation and then to crew on a yacht and cross the Atlantic once in the north and once in the south. The trip should take about one month each, so you can do it on a holiday, and many private yachts do it regularly, taking inexperienced crew along. It is a very nice adventure in any case and the costs are usually very reasonable so it is accessible to most people. You will have a captain keeping you safe but you will also be able to do your own navigating and take your own measurements. And I guarantee you you will then be able to see for yourself that the concept of a flat earth is simply nonsense. As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

You're wrong.

You're wrong.

Quite an in depth analysis and response wise.  You sure showed him.

I've never circumnavigated, but I did navigate on a journey by boat of nearly 2500 miles.

I've also performed the Cavendish experiment and detected something suspiciously like gravity between terrestrial masses.

I've also performed the water level and the horizon does not rise to eyelevel.

And I've sighted the height of distant mountains with a theodolite and they do seem to be lower than expected and quite similar to what 8 inches per mile squared suggests for a curved earth.

So OP may actually be right.

You're wrong.

How and why ?

Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.

I have looked into your wiki and apart from some stuff about compasses, you do not address this flagrant flaw in your reasoning. My claim here is that you can prove to yourself that the Earth is round by learning to navigate on it. Navigating at sea and staying safe requires precision. Math and geometry don't lie. I have yet to meet a sailor or a navigator who believes the Earth is flat.

Please let me elaborate with a few examples:

Celestial navigation is about measuring angles from stars and planets in the sky to the horizon and inferring from those angles a triangulation of your position. The math is complicated because it needs to take into account the roundness of the planet, using spherical trigonometry. If Earth was flat, the math would be much simpler. Not only the math would be wrong if you used spherical trigonometry to navigate a flat earth and you would not know where you are, but frankly what kind of masochist would do spherical trigonometry at sea on a rocking boat if he didn't absolutely have to? Celestial navigation disproves flat earth. If you do not believe me, just learn celestial navigation and use it, you'll find out for yourself. If you assume a round earth, it works, if you assume a flat earth, it doesn't.

Stars used for celestial navigation are distinctly different in the northern and southern hemisphere in a way that is consistent with a round earth. You'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to make it coherent with a flat earth model.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math. The principle of GPS could work on a flat earth and we wouldn't know since we are not doing the math ourselves, but the thing with GPS is that it only works in line of sight. You do not get signal from a GPS satellite that is below the horizon. To work everywhere, it needs a minimum of about 24 satellites, otherwise there are areas of the globe that are not covered. On a flat earth, 3 or 4 satellites would be enough as you would have line of sight to them anywhere on the map.

Navigators monitor closely the distance they cover and the speed they go, using various means, including mechanical ones that cannot possibly be biased by a conspiracy as a GPS signal could be for example. Sometimes, using the navigating technique known as dead reckoning, we use only our speed to measure how far we've gone. As a result of personally monitoring distances all over the planet, I can say with confidence that distances around the globe are consistent with a round earth. For example the distance between Africa and South America at 25 south latitude is roughly 3200nm while the distance at 25 North latitude between Africa and the Bahamas is also roughly 3200nm, as expected with a round earth and from my sea charts. Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong. That is simply not the case. Assuming similar conditions, it takes about the same amount of time to sail across the north Atlantic than it does to sail across the south.

As a matter of fact, because the southern ocean is open all the way round, this is the route for solo non stop round the world sailing races. The current sailing record is just over 42 days (amazing, really...), sailing at an average of 27.2 knots over 27,859.7 nautical miles. This is consistent with a round Earth, not with a flat Earth. There is no way a boat doing a max speed of about 35 knots could go around flat earth non stop in 42 days. Do the math yourself using whatever distances your flat earth model say the southern ocean should be. And keep in mind these are closely monitored races with high stakes in glory and fortune for the winners, followed by millions on TV. No cheating possible.

So, to recap, if you are passionate about truth and yet for some reason believe the earth is flat, I encourage you to learn celestial navigation and then to crew on a yacht and cross the Atlantic once in the north and once in the south. The trip should take about one month each, so you can do it on a holiday, and many private yachts do it regularly, taking inexperienced crew along. It is a very nice adventure in any case and the costs are usually very reasonable so it is accessible to most people. You will have a captain keeping you safe but you will also be able to do your own navigating and take your own measurements. And I guarantee you you will then be able to see for yourself that the concept of a flat earth is simply nonsense. As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

Hello Karaka -

Thanks very much. You have said it a lot better than I could..
I was in the USN for only 4 years, but I never considered myself a sailor.
I was just a Petty Officer Second Class, ET2 and just a Radar Specialist. None of that navigation and all the other things you mentioned.

The greatest evidence of the Globe for me was seeing the horizon every day while at sea.
As I have mentioned I was not and am not and have never been a sailor.
But possibly just a student of geography.
I knew the earth was round.
But watching the horizon just gave me some visible evidence of the curvature of the earth and proof that the earth is round.
If the earth was flat , there would be no curvature of the earth.
And you should be able to see land with a powerful enough telescope from any point at sea.
But you can't.
You can watch the land disappear , shores first , tops of hills and mountains last , as you sailed out of a seaport.
And once they have disappeared , you can't bring them back into view, no matter how powerful is your telescope.
Some FE's should get on a ship and give this a try.
But they would probably deny any thing they saw.

Karaka-
Ask the FE's for a description of the horizon on a Flat Earth, where it is, what it is , and how to estimate the distance to the horizon.
See if you have any more luck than I have had in getting answers. LOL.

Quote from: wise on March 24, 2019, 07:46:39 AM

You're wrong.

How and why ?

Because globularist gang says there is magnetic declination affects the compasses. So that globularist map is wrong. But flat earth maps do not consider the magnetic declinations are true.

So that navigation tools mean nothing. Using navigation tools many ships disappeared in oceans. This man either says lie that high possible, or will disappear in a day somewhere in southern oceans.

Quote from: Karaka on March 24, 2019, 01:58:25 AM

Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.

I have looked into your wiki and apart from some stuff about compasses, you do not address this flagrant flaw in your reasoning. My claim here is that you can prove to yourself that the Earth is round by learning to navigate on it. Navigating at sea and staying safe requires precision. Math and geometry don't lie. I have yet to meet a sailor or a navigator who believes the Earth is flat.

Please let me elaborate with a few examples:

Celestial navigation is about measuring angles from stars and planets in the sky to the horizon and inferring from those angles a triangulation of your position. The math is complicated because it needs to take into account the roundness of the planet, using spherical trigonometry. If Earth was flat, the math would be much simpler. Not only the math would be wrong if you used spherical trigonometry to navigate a flat earth and you would not know where you are, but frankly what kind of masochist would do spherical trigonometry at sea on a rocking boat if he didn't absolutely have to? Celestial navigation disproves flat earth. If you do not believe me, just learn celestial navigation and use it, you'll find out for yourself. If you assume a round earth, it works, if you assume a flat earth, it doesn't.

Stars used for celestial navigation are distinctly different in the northern and southern hemisphere in a way that is consistent with a round earth. You'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to make it coherent with a flat earth model.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math. The principle of GPS could work on a flat earth and we wouldn't know since we are not doing the math ourselves, but the thing with GPS is that it only works in line of sight. You do not get signal from a GPS satellite that is below the horizon. To work everywhere, it needs a minimum of about 24 satellites, otherwise there are areas of the globe that are not covered. On a flat earth, 3 or 4 satellites would be enough as you would have line of sight to them anywhere on the map.

Navigators monitor closely the distance they cover and the speed they go, using various means, including mechanical ones that cannot possibly be biased by a conspiracy as a GPS signal could be for example. Sometimes, using the navigating technique known as dead reckoning, we use only our speed to measure how far we've gone. As a result of personally monitoring distances all over the planet, I can say with confidence that distances around the globe are consistent with a round earth. For example the distance between Africa and South America at 25 south latitude is roughly 3200nm while the distance at 25 North latitude between Africa and the Bahamas is also roughly 3200nm, as expected with a round earth and from my sea charts. Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong. That is simply not the case. Assuming similar conditions, it takes about the same amount of time to sail across the north Atlantic than it does to sail across the south.

As a matter of fact, because the southern ocean is open all the way round, this is the route for solo non stop round the world sailing races. The current sailing record is just over 42 days (amazing, really...), sailing at an average of 27.2 knots over 27,859.7 nautical miles. This is consistent with a round Earth, not with a flat Earth. There is no way a boat doing a max speed of about 35 knots could go around flat earth non stop in 42 days. Do the math yourself using whatever distances your flat earth model say the southern ocean should be. And keep in mind these are closely monitored races with high stakes in glory and fortune for the winners, followed by millions on TV. No cheating possible.

So, to recap, if you are passionate about truth and yet for some reason believe the earth is flat, I encourage you to learn celestial navigation and then to crew on a yacht and cross the Atlantic once in the north and once in the south. The trip should take about one month each, so you can do it on a holiday, and many private yachts do it regularly, taking inexperienced crew along. It is a very nice adventure in any case and the costs are usually very reasonable so it is accessible to most people. You will have a captain keeping you safe but you will also be able to do your own navigating and take your own measurements. And I guarantee you you will then be able to see for yourself that the concept of a flat earth is simply nonsense. As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

Hello Karaka -

Thanks very much. You have said it a lot better than I could..
I was in the USN for only 4 years, but I never considered myself a sailor.
I was just a Petty Officer Second Class, ET2 and just a Radar Specialist. None of that navigation and all the other things you mentioned.
The greatest evidence of the Globe for me was seeing the horizon every day while at sea.

Wow, you were in the Navy?

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 24, 2019, 08:46:24 AM

Quote from: wise on March 24, 2019, 07:46:39 AM

You're wrong.

How and why ?

Because globularist gang says there is magnetic declination affects the compasses. So that globularist map is wrong. But flat earth maps do not consider the magnetic declinations are true.

So that navigation tools mean nothing. Using navigation tools many ships disappeared in oceans. This man either says lie that high possible, or will disappear in a day somewhere in southern oceans.

Any evidence to corroborate your statements you'd like to share? Maybe something to back up, I don't know, "So that navigation tools mean nothing." for starters.

Karaka -- just ignore Wise, don't bother responding. He or she is impervious to reason and just makes stuff up.

Karaka -- just ignore Wise, don't bother responding. He or she is impervious to reason and just makes stuff up.

Karaka -- Listen him, ignore me. But you can not blame flat earthers when you loose your way in southern oceans.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c²

ω is the directed earth’s rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earth’s center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

In a rare admission, even N. Ashby states that the Coriolis force is responsible for the term commonly used in GPS technology which he ascribes to be the Sagnac effect:




The CORIOLIS EFFECT is a physical effect on the light beam.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is an electromagnetic effect on the velocity of the light beams.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.

Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):



Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes, forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

You're wrong.

Wow, such a detailed, logical convincing response which showed exactly what was wrong with his statement.
Well, I'm convinced, I guess it's time to pack up and go home.

Because globularist gang says there is magnetic declination affects the compasses. So that globularist map is wrong.

That makes no sense at all.
Magnetic declination and deviation existing don't magically make the globe wrong.

Now how about instead of setting up a strawman, you address what he said?
Explain how celestial navigation and distances work on a FE.

So that navigation tools mean nothing. Using navigation tools many ships disappeared in oceans. This man either says lie that high possible, or will disappear in a day somewhere in southern oceans.

No, ships don't magically disappear from using navigation tools. That is how they get to their destination.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:
2Sω/c²

This is not a thread to drag in the Sagnac effect. If you wish to discuss it, go back to the plenty of threads that already exist where you have been repeatedly refuted.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.
Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):

And all your bipolar maps do is push the problem around. You have massive distances between the east coast of Australia and the west coast of the Americas, and the path between them makes no sense.
Even some of the problematic ones are still ridiculous, like going from the east of Australia to South America.
A direct route doesn't go via Africa.

forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

Don't worry, it is incompatible with all maps.
In fact, the only map a sun is compatible with is a RE map, with a very distant sun.
All the others have simultaneous problems of the sun being too close and too far.

I also notice you have made no attempt to explain celestial navigation on a FE. I understand that it can be very difficult, especially with the need for 2 straight lines to intersect after some finite distance in each direction.

Quote from: Platonius21 on March 24, 2019, 11:19:38 AM

Karaka -- just ignore Wise, don't bother responding. He or she is impervious to reason and just makes stuff up.

Karaka -- Listen him, ignore me. But you can not blame flat earthers when you loose your way in southern oceans.

Karaka -- just ignore Wise, don't bother responding. He or she is impervious to reason and just makes stuff up.

But you can not blame flat earthers when you lose your way in southern oceans because flat-earthers, especially unWise, are totally ignorant of the

• southern oceans,
• southern flights,
• southern flights,
• circumnavigation of the earth via both poles,
• trans-Antarctic expeditions,
• Antarctica and the South Pole.

Now, Mr Wise, I'm a little curious. This video shows the track of the container ship, Olivia Maersk, sailing from Aukland in NZ, to Paita in Peru plotted on the AEP Map and on Google earth:

Boats across the Southern Hemisphere by BM Furball Pancake Hero Mar 21, 2019.

When plotted on the AEP Map the ship's route looks like this and was about 24,920 km:

"Boats across the Southern Hemisphere" at 5:06 - curved AEP map track 24,920 km

I wonder why that Sea Captain would take a curved path like that requiring his ship to sail that 24,920 km (13,456 Nm) in 15.6
 days^[1] and that is an average speed of almost 36 knots. But no container ship can sail at anything like that speed!
Note the video says 12 days and 43 knots but I suspect that is not for the whole voyage.

Maybe that Sea Captain was using the wrong map , who knows? So let's try that same route plotted on the dreadful Google Earth Map:

"Boats across the Southern Hemisphere" at 4:15 - straight Globe track 10,060 km

Look! Now the distance is only about 10,060 km (5432 Nm) and the required average speed is now only 14.5 knots - again the video has a higher figure.

Now Karaka seems to be experienced in these matters:

Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

Maybe he can sort out this little conundrum .

[1] I took my elapsed time from this:
     
      At 2:21 in video - Olivia Maersk route forcast whereas BM Furball Pancake Hero presumably has details of the faster parts of the route.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.

Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):

On your Piri Reis map, please explain how one can travel from Aukland, NZ, to say Paita, Peru, (as in my previous post) and travel only about 10,060 km (5432 Nm).
That map makes travel across the Pacific in the known elapsed times quite impossible unless you have some explanation I have never heard of.

This map by Mr. Science name-dropper is rubbish just like Wise's map is rubbish.

Any map where the scale is not constant throughout cannot represent a flat surface. If the earth were flat, it would be easy to have a map with correct distances between continents and cities and the continents would be the correct size with respect to each other and the scale would be constant.

Stop posting rubbish.

Quote from: sandokhan on March 24, 2019, 11:30:48 AM

This map by Mr. Science name-dropper is rubbish just like Wise's map is rubbish.

Any map where the scale is not constant throughout cannot represent a flat surface. If the earth were flat, it would be easy to have a map with correct distances between continents and cities and the continents would be the correct size with respect to each other and the scale would be constant.

Stop posting rubbish.

He should stop posting maps which are just copies of projections of the globe and stop claiming  that they are his own original Flat Earth Map inventions .

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 24, 2019, 08:55:16 AM

Quote from: Karaka on March 24, 2019, 01:58:25 AM

Hello all,

I am a sea captain and I have circumnavigated. I am a master navigator. If the earth was a flat plane and not a globe, my navigation tools would not work, the math would not compute and I would be incapable of reaching my destination.

I have looked into your wiki and apart from some stuff about compasses, you do not address this flagrant flaw in your reasoning. My claim here is that you can prove to yourself that the Earth is round by learning to navigate on it. Navigating at sea and staying safe requires precision. Math and geometry don't lie. I have yet to meet a sailor or a navigator who believes the Earth is flat.

Please let me elaborate with a few examples:

Celestial navigation is about measuring angles from stars and planets in the sky to the horizon and inferring from those angles a triangulation of your position. The math is complicated because it needs to take into account the roundness of the planet, using spherical trigonometry. If Earth was flat, the math would be much simpler. Not only the math would be wrong if you used spherical trigonometry to navigate a flat earth and you would not know where you are, but frankly what kind of masochist would do spherical trigonometry at sea on a rocking boat if he didn't absolutely have to? Celestial navigation disproves flat earth. If you do not believe me, just learn celestial navigation and use it, you'll find out for yourself. If you assume a round earth, it works, if you assume a flat earth, it doesn't.

Stars used for celestial navigation are distinctly different in the northern and southern hemisphere in a way that is consistent with a round earth. You'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to make it coherent with a flat earth model.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math. The principle of GPS could work on a flat earth and we wouldn't know since we are not doing the math ourselves, but the thing with GPS is that it only works in line of sight. You do not get signal from a GPS satellite that is below the horizon. To work everywhere, it needs a minimum of about 24 satellites, otherwise there are areas of the globe that are not covered. On a flat earth, 3 or 4 satellites would be enough as you would have line of sight to them anywhere on the map.

Navigators monitor closely the distance they cover and the speed they go, using various means, including mechanical ones that cannot possibly be biased by a conspiracy as a GPS signal could be for example. Sometimes, using the navigating technique known as dead reckoning, we use only our speed to measure how far we've gone. As a result of personally monitoring distances all over the planet, I can say with confidence that distances around the globe are consistent with a round earth. For example the distance between Africa and South America at 25 south latitude is roughly 3200nm while the distance at 25 North latitude between Africa and the Bahamas is also roughly 3200nm, as expected with a round earth and from my sea charts. Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong. That is simply not the case. Assuming similar conditions, it takes about the same amount of time to sail across the north Atlantic than it does to sail across the south.

As a matter of fact, because the southern ocean is open all the way round, this is the route for solo non stop round the world sailing races. The current sailing record is just over 42 days (amazing, really...), sailing at an average of 27.2 knots over 27,859.7 nautical miles. This is consistent with a round Earth, not with a flat Earth. There is no way a boat doing a max speed of about 35 knots could go around flat earth non stop in 42 days. Do the math yourself using whatever distances your flat earth model say the southern ocean should be. And keep in mind these are closely monitored races with high stakes in glory and fortune for the winners, followed by millions on TV. No cheating possible.

So, to recap, if you are passionate about truth and yet for some reason believe the earth is flat, I encourage you to learn celestial navigation and then to crew on a yacht and cross the Atlantic once in the north and once in the south. The trip should take about one month each, so you can do it on a holiday, and many private yachts do it regularly, taking inexperienced crew along. It is a very nice adventure in any case and the costs are usually very reasonable so it is accessible to most people. You will have a captain keeping you safe but you will also be able to do your own navigating and take your own measurements. And I guarantee you you will then be able to see for yourself that the concept of a flat earth is simply nonsense. As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

Hello Karaka -

Thanks very much. You have said it a lot better than I could..
I was in the USN for only 4 years, but I never considered myself a sailor.
I was just a Petty Officer Second Class, ET2 and just a Radar Specialist. None of that navigation and all the other things you mentioned.
The greatest evidence of the Globe for me was seeing the horizon every day while at sea.

Wow, you were in the Navy?

That old joke is getting rather old. :-(

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on March 24, 2019, 09:23:18 AM

Wow, you were in the Navy?

That old joke is getting rather old. :-(

Maybe Space Cowgirl is getting rather old, about at a wild guess ?

Quote from: Googleotomy on March 24, 2019, 05:57:05 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on March 24, 2019, 09:23:18 AM

Wow, you were in the Navy?

That old joke is getting rather old. :-(

Maybe Space Cowgirl is getting rather old, about at a wild guess ?

I got old trying to get answers to my questions about the horizon on a flat Earth.
So I am giving up on it.
No use getting any older on it.
Of course, if anyone else wants to give it a go at it, they are certainly welcome to it.
I'm going to give up on it and waste no more time getting older and waiting for answers .

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c²

ω is the directed earth’s rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earth’s center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

In a rare admission, even N. Ashby states that the Coriolis force is responsible for the term commonly used in GPS technology which he ascribes to be the Sagnac effect:




The CORIOLIS EFFECT is a physical effect on the light beam.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is an electromagnetic effect on the velocity of the light beamus.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.

Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):



Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes, forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

What's the UAFE ?

Quote from: sandokhan on March 24, 2019, 11:30:48 AM

Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes, forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

What's the UAFE ?

UAFE = Universal Acceleration Flat Earthers. In other words most here and virtually all at TFES.org.
But I've seen very few, apart from Tom Bishop, defending tne "FET with the use of this map".
It is not mentioned in the Wiki of this site and even in TFES, Flat Earth Maps is just one of 11 possible maps.

That does seem to fit with Sandokhan's boast:

Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes.

And Sandokhan claims that the "3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map" so claims that the sun's distance is only about 15 km above the earth .

As I said before, the gyrocompass is one of the surest proofs that the earth is not flat.

https://maritime.org/doc/gyromk14/index.htm#pg7a

So far, none of the flat earthlings could not refute this. But the trouble is. Nobody could explain to me why the gyro responds to entropy! Therefore, it is foolish to say further that the gyrocompass reacts precisely to the rotation of the earth. In fact, no one knows how everything works. For each of us, our world is limited by a visible flat horizon, beyond which space and time itself change. Everyone laughs - but in the Bible there are all the answers to our questions - how our world works. He is not a ball or a plane ...

As I said before, the gyrocompass is one of the surest proofs that the earth is not flat.

https://maritime.org/doc/gyromk14/index.htm#pg7a

So far, none of the flat earthlings could not refute this. But the trouble is. Nobody could explain to me why the gyro responds to entropy!

Why should anyone bother?
You have given no reason the even think that gyroscopic action and entropy are remotely connected.

As I said before, the gyrocompass is one of the surest proofs that the earth is not flat.

Please update your knowledge on the effect of the Coriolis force on gyro compasses:

http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/21/068/21068614.pdf


You cannot use either Foucault's pendulum or gyro compasses to prove the supposed rotation of the Earth.

The only direct experimental proof are ring laser gyroscopes since they can detect BOTH the Coriolis effect and the rotational Sagnac effect.

The Coriolis effect will always be proportional to the AREA/angular velocity of the interferometer.

The Sagnac effect will always be proportional to the RADIUS of rotation.

The Sagnac effect does not feature the area. Ever.

The Sagnac effect without an area:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2070082#msg2070082

Sandokhan, I will address you since you seem to think you have a point and are making efforts to articulate it. 

You are telling me that I am using the wrong maps. Here is my reason to use the maps I use:

Sea charts are not wrong, they cannot be, we use them to stay safe and reach our destination, they are constantly tested with people's lives and property all over the world and never fail us. They absolutely have to conform to reality or they are useless for navigation. They are tools for navigating. Sea going navigation is happening, is working as intended. That proves the charts are correct.  If they were not, sailors would notice and would not use them or would modify them to make them accurate. Maps and sea charts depict a round Earth because that's what they need to depict to be accurate. They do not fail us when we use them in the real world. That seems to me to be a pretty legitimate and sensible reason to trust them.
You seem to disagree. Why?

You also tell me that you have the correct map. I sincerely do not understand why you think the monstrosity you offered would be the correct map. It doesn't depict accurately the world I circumnavigated.

 I understand it conforms to your belief that the Earth is flat but I'm wondering if you think your map is accurate because it conforms to your pre-existing belief, or whether, like me, you have formed your belief upon finding your map to be accurate in the real world.

So can you please enlighten us as to how you reached the conclusion that your map was correct and also how confident you are that your map is correct (on a scale of 0 to 100 for example)?

Maps should be among the least of your worries.

Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c²

ω is the directed earth’s rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earth’s center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

GPS cannot function on a spherical, rotating/orbiting Earth.

Since the GPS satellites only register/record the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, and not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula, it means that the light signals are delayed by the rotating ether drift.

Sandhokan, I'm not talking about GPS here, but about maps. Let's stick to this subject for now and then we can talk about GPS later if you want. GPS happens to be useless without an accurate map and maps predate GPS by millennia.

Can you please tell me how you reached the conclusion that your map was correct and also how confident you are that your map is correct (on a scale of 0 to 100 for example)?

Nobody could explain to me why the gyro responds to entropy!

Because you are yet to explain what you mean by that.

in the Bible there are all the answers to our questions - how our world works. He is not a ball or a plane ...

Sure, it has "answers" to some questions, but is so horribly flawed that no sane person would go looking for them there.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the topic.