Navigation tools disprove flat earth

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John Davis

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2019, 11:44:01 PM »
It was a pity.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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rabinoz

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2019, 12:00:36 AM »
It was a pity.
It would be a pity to prove poor old sandokhan wrong once again because he tries so very hard and puts so much effort into finding such wonderful references.

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2019, 12:14:10 AM »
It makes no difference about the quality of the "map". Using the calipers the distance from Perth to Vancouver is 392 pixels, corresponding to an actual distance of 14826 km for a ratio of 38.8 km/pixel
Yes, it doesn't match reality. I never said it did.

this is an azymutal equidistant projection, just like the one on the UN flag. it is supposed to be distorted:
Not according to wise.
According to him it is a to-scale map of the FE, and anything which disagrees with it is a lie.

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2019, 05:43:33 AM »

Not according to wise.
According to him it is a to-scale map of the FE, and anything which disagrees with it is a lie.
[/quote]

yes, okay, but can we really take wise's words at face value? I don't think it is a flat earth map, I'm just pointing out it is a legit map projection. Mr Wise can believe it is a flat earth map if he wants, it remains a legit projection of the globe. Basically, this is me pointing out that Mr wise's evidence, his beloved map, can be shown to be representing a round earth if you recognize it as a polar projection, and so it is of no use as evidence for flat earth because even if the concept of flat earth made sense, this map of his could be used to depict a round earth.

Anyway, I will stop posting here. This is really a waste of my time. Best of luck everyone. Keep discussing here, it keeps my OP at the top of the list, and some poor lost soul might end up reading it and not fall into the rabbit hole of flat earthery.

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wise

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2019, 11:49:44 AM »
Wise's "map" cannot represent a flat earth because it does not have a constant scale throughout

As you can see the distance to the "Edge" is shown as 18,100 (km?) which on my screen is a distance of 491 pixels

That means the distance of 180 pixels to the first radius should correspond to a  distance of 6634 --not 5806 as shown on the "map".

The scale is not constant! The "map" is rubbish.


There is a scale on top side of the map, as "1250". Use it then you'll see it is true, but not rubbish. It is an autocad file, not a drawing. It can not be wrong. Check your measurement enstruments again. If you still think it as rubbish, so your own method is rubbish.





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wise

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2019, 11:56:28 AM »
There is a map here, a numerical type of flat earth maps. All datas have been verified, consistent and so and so. I'm not pretentious about Antarctica because there is not enough flights throught there.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=74162.0


That's NOT a map!

Aside from the fact that it makes no sense.......Unless the wise Mr. Wise can explain it.
It looks like just a bit of hodge-podge to me. Nothing like a real map. Even Sandokhan's map has a semblance to a real map in comparison.

It is a map, just has not borders for lands and oceans. But you can find position of cities more accurate than maps show the borders. Because you can find center of cities without any unnecessary details.

On the other hand, this map has created after examined about 100.000 flights. few inaccurate flights that do not fit into the general flights are not considered. the existence of these invalid flights could not be confirmed in any way. their existence is just a claim. such as claiming that a company went to the moon and taking it into account. in such a case we would like a video of it.

With all due apologies and respect to you,  wise   , your  map certainly shows that you spent a lot of time and a lot of effort in its making.

But it would have been a little less confusing if you had  just drawn in the shapes of the continents.

I am good on technical issues, calculations, researches  and phsics, but I am not good on drawing. I've seeked for somebody convert it to a map by using photographing programs, I've asked for somebody can do it, I've announced it in this web site, but unfortunately nobody has did it. We know John Davis is good on programming. There are some amateur photographers here that I think they may be good on illustration, but unfortunately, even John NASA Davis did not interesting to do it, although he has promised to help.





Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2019, 12:47:43 PM »
A map generated from flight data is going to tell us what?
You have nothing to compare it to except the globe map.
So what did you "verify"?

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2019, 01:26:05 PM »
yes, okay, but can we really take wise's words at face value? I don't think it is a flat earth map, I'm just pointing out it is a legit map projection.
As he made it himself, I wouldn't trust it as a projection of the globe. It was definitely not made that way.
It was made by cherry picking data to make it work on a FE.

Basically, this is me pointing out that Mr wise's evidence, his beloved map, can be shown to be representing a round earth if you recognize it as a polar projection, and so it is of no use as evidence for flat earth because even if the concept of flat earth made sense, this map of his could be used to depict a round earth.
And that requires actually showing it is a projection, rather than just asserting it can be.
Otherwise the exact argument can apply the other way, that the globe is just a projection of a flat Earth onto a sphere.

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sokarul

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2019, 02:18:12 PM »
The map shows Denver further north than London. Needless to say the map is worthless.
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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #99 on: March 28, 2019, 08:11:31 PM »
The map shows Denver further north than London. Needless to say the map is worthless.

Or, in other words, rubbish.

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #100 on: March 30, 2019, 04:56:40 AM »

I am good on technical issues, calculations, researches  and phsics,
Obviously not.

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2019, 07:11:18 AM »
Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c2

ω is the directed earthís rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earthís center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

In a rare admission, even N. Ashby states that the Coriolis force is responsible for the term commonly used in GPS technology which he ascribes to be the Sagnac effect:




The CORIOLIS EFFECT is a physical effect on the light beam.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is an electromagnetic effect on the velocity of the light beams.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.

Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):



Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes, forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

Hello Sandokhan

I am big fan of yours. You turned me from globe to flat earth. Your topics and posts are absolutely shocking and they forced me in deep thought. But still i couldn't understand your bipolar map.

Could you explain how sun rise and sun set works on your map?
Could you explain how midnight sun at north pole and south pole?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 07:36:03 AM by flat_theory_is_wrong »

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2019, 12:39:21 PM »
You're wrong.

How and why ?

Because globularist gang says there is magnetic declination affects the compasses. So that globularist map is wrong. But flat earth maps do not consider the magnetic declinations are true.

So that navigation tools mean nothing. Using navigation tools many ships disappeared in oceans. This man either says lie that high possible, or will disappear in a day somewhere in southern oceans.

I have an old County Road Map which shows the Magnetic Declination for that year.
Magnetic Declination is real and is necessary for use in surveying.

My advice to FE's.
Look ......if you don't know something about something.
Don't just call it a fake.
Do some studying about it.
Learn something !

I've never stopped doing that from my Pre-First-Grade years and even in my Retirement Years.
You never stop studying and learning about new things.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 12:51:34 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2019, 01:01:48 PM »
Gps is the modern equivalent to celestial navigation, it operates on roughly the same principles only using satellites instead of stars, radio waves and accurate time keeping to measure distances and communicate the signal and electronic means to do the triangulation instantly without having to do the math.

Here is the equation for the rotational correction for GPS:

2Sω/c2

ω is the directed earthís rotation rate, and S denotes the directed area of the triangle with vertices at the satellite, the receiver, and earthís center.

However, this is the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the ether drift which delays the light signal.

Not the SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

In a rare admission, even N. Ashby states that the Coriolis force is responsible for the term commonly used in GPS technology which he ascribes to be the Sagnac effect:




The CORIOLIS EFFECT is a physical effect on the light beam.

The SAGNAC EFFECT is an electromagnetic effect on the velocity of the light beams.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong.

You are using the wrong, unipolar map.

Here is the correct bipolar map (Piri Reis map):



Now, I introduced this map to the FES some ten years ago; once the UAFE saw how easy it is to defend FET with the use of this map, they copied it and started it to utilize it for their own purposes, forgetting all the while that their 3000 mile orbital distance to the Sun is absolutely incompatible with this map.

Hello Sandokhan

I am big fan of yours. You turned me from globe to flat earth. Your topics and posts are absolutely shocking and they forced me in deep thought. But still i couldn't understand your bipolar map.

Could you explain how sun rise and sun set works on your map?
Could you explain how midnight sun at north pole and south pole?

I am a big fan of sandokan, too. ???
I am always amazed at how he can look up stuff and post stuff which has nothing to with the subject being discussed.
And how he can copy things.
His Bi-Polar Map is just an obvious....maybe a little bit cruder.....copy of the Bi-Polar Projection......of the globe.
I am still interested on the oceanic route from San Diego to Yokosuka on sandokhan's map. ???


Here is something that a FE could do.
It costs a bit of money if you are a civilian.
It's free if you join the navy. (It doesn't have to be the USN ! )
Take a cruise out on the ocean (any ocean will do.).
Look out and see if you can see a thing called the horizon. (The apparent line where the sky meets the sea.)
See how far you can see to the horizon from various heights on your ship.
Or just mention the words "Flat Earth" to the Captain or any Officer on your ship and see what kind of response you get !
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 08:08:59 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2019, 07:41:01 PM »
Karaka,

I have asked about sextant/north star/latitude, equatorial mount, doppler shift from stars, the Whitbread/Volvo/Ocean race, asked for a map, can't even think of the whole list. Often zero FE replies, sometimes the same sort of thing you are getting here.

The FE answers never satisfy anyone but themselves.

By the way, on FE you are either a conspiring liar, brainwashed, or FE.

Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2019, 08:03:10 PM »
Karaka,

I have asked about sextant/north star/latitude, equatorial mount, doppler shift from stars, the Whitbread/Volvo/Ocean race, asked for a map, can't even think of the whole list. Often zero FE replies, sometimes the same sort of thing you are getting here.

The FE answers never satisfy anyone but themselves.

By the way, on FE you are either a conspiring liar, brainwashed, or FE.

jimster -

Don't feel too bad.
 I have repeatedly asked for just one FE subject. :
The explanation or information  of the horizon on a flat Earth.
But so far I have not received any replies.
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2019, 04:43:54 AM »
I'm in no way a flat earther, I wrote the OP. I just do not think it is ever appropriate to be 100% certain of anything, that's dogmatism and that's what open minded people need to avoid.

Maybe, but as a fellow round earth guy, the way I read your OP it seemed 100% certain to me.  I mean, where is the wiggle room in these statements:

My claim here is that you can prove to yourself that the Earth is round by learning to navigate on it.

As a result of personally monitoring distances all over the planet, I can say with confidence that distances around the globe are consistent with a round earth.

Under a flat earth model, the distances in the southern ocean would be very much bigger than in the north and all my charts would be wrong. That is simply not the case.

There is no way a boat doing a max speed of about 35 knots could go around flat earth non stop in 42 days. Do the math yourself using whatever distances your flat earth model say the southern ocean should be.

I guarantee you you will then be able to see for yourself that the concept of a flat earth is simply nonsense. As a sailor, you will be forced to accept the fact that Earth is round.

Iím not disagreeing with any of those points.  Iím saying that having seen repeated evidence and practical demonstrations that something is true, it is not inappropriate to be 100% certain of it.

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Omega

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2019, 05:29:28 AM »
I just do not think it is ever appropriate to be 100% certain of anything, that's dogmatism and that's what open minded people need to avoid.

This way madness lies because it is so often misunderstood, especially here.

Science relies on data gathered from many experiments. If many experiments yield the same result in the same circumstances, you don't need to hedge your bets. You're not dogmatic if you say the boiling point of water at 1 atmosphere of pressure is 212F.

You can be certain of this.

Just like you can be certain that the earth is a spheroid.

There is nothing dogmatic in using knowledge you've gained based on other people's scientific work.

Dogmatic is challenging a scientific fact because it does not fit your preconceived world view.

Only thing round in FE is its circular logic.

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Souleon

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2019, 12:11:11 AM »
wonderful, a testable hypothesis from Mr Wise!

Mr Wise, you claim those southern flights do not exist.
You can test that hypothesis scientifically. Just buy yourself a seat on one of those flights.
here is a link: https://www.fly-scanner.com/us/flights/results/PER-JNB/2019-04-03/0/1-0-0?sid=FUS3_5c9b983679c38

Why didn't anybody think about this earlier? So simple.

If that's too much money for you, though, just do a crowdfunding among your flat earther friends, after all you would be collecting valuable evidence, you would get back up.

Make sure you take a phone with a good GPS with you, a timer, multiple cameras, anything you deem necessary to check you really flew between those two places.
And then you'll know! how great is that? no need to debate about it, you can find out for yourself.

Now, Mr wise, I have a simple question for you:

If you took that flight, recorded it and determined to your satisfaction that it was indeed a 8300km flight, as predicted by round earth theory and not an 18300 km flights, as per your hypothesis, would it lower your confidence that the earth was flat?

Is derived my distance estimates from this website: http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Distances+on+Globe+and+Flat+Earth

I would like to highlight this post again, since it got buried shortly after. What are your answers, especially Wise & John Davis?
Facts that can be explained logically by FET and not by RE: None.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2019, 12:26:01 AM »

I would like to highlight this post again, since it got buried shortly after.

It was not buried, nobody responded to the post.
There's a difference.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

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rabinoz

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2019, 01:14:06 AM »

I would like to highlight this post again, since it got buried shortly after.

It was not buried, nobody responded to the post.
There's a difference.
Maybe "nobody responded to the post" for the simple reason that nobody can refute, "Navigation tools disprove flat earth". Ever thought of that?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Navigation tools disprove flat earth
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2019, 01:45:48 AM »

I would like to highlight this post again, since it got buried shortly after.

It was not buried, nobody responded to the post.
There's a difference.
Maybe "nobody responded to the post" for the simple reason that nobody can refute,
"Navigation tools disprove flat earth".

Ever thought of that?

I'll wait until this thread gets parked in AR before I respond.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.