Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth

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Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« on: March 20, 2019, 11:18:39 PM »
I'm trying to work out how it is possible for those outside the equatorial ring to see the sun rise and set close to due east or due west.

Per my diagram below you can see that on a flat earth, during the equinox for observers in Australia, the sun will be 6 hours away by the time it sets.
This will cause it to appear 40 degrees north of due west when it sets.
This is clearly not even close what is observed.

In fact, even for people on the equator, during the equinox, the sun would appear to rise and set far north of due east/west. So don't throw the PHEW map at me, unless you can actually explain how it solves this problem. But if you're promoting the PHEW map, you know who you are, and you know you can't explain how it solves this problems.
The PHEW map is so much even more brokener-er. Not only does it not fix this problem, it creates numerous other problems.

I cannot see how it is possible for the sun to be circling above the equator, and appearing to set due east/west when it's actually 40 degrees north for them Australians at the moment it sets.
(In fact, there's just one latitude where the sun *would* appear to set in the correct place. For the whole rest of the world, it'd be drastically in the wrong place!)

And if you're going to tell me I drew the sun the wrong size, save your breath: I drew it the size it needs to be to reach Australia 6 hours after high local solar noon there, because there's no dispute that the sun sets 6 hours after high solar noon in Australia on the equinox.

How does this not disprove flat earth?

EDIT:
Before any more of you either post a dubious link which claims -- or personally claim -- that you cannot see the sun over a hundred miles away, note that during the equinox  in Australia the sun is about 8600 miles away during sunset and sunrise and you can still see it very well. So if you have a source which claims you can't see the sun more than a few hundred miles away, it is bogus and you're silly.
I've updated my diagram to include the length to the sun at sunset in Australia during the equinox.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 07:29:44 AM by Tom Foolery »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 12:02:33 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Tom, your simple wiki link does not even remotely address something like, "I cannot see how it is possible for the sun to be circling above the equator, and appearing to set due east/west when it's actually 40 degrees north for them Australians at the moment it sets."

The wiki doesn't address this case at all. Be more specific.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 12:04:43 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Tom, your simple wiki link does not even remotely address something like, "I cannot see how it is possible for the sun to be circling above the equator, and appearing to set due east/west when it's actually 40 degrees north for them Australians at the moment it sets."

The wiki doesn't address this case at all. Be more specific.

It actually addresses just that.

Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 01:38:17 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Tom, your simple wiki link does not even remotely address something like, "I cannot see how it is possible for the sun to be circling above the equator, and appearing to set due east/west when it's actually 40 degrees north for them Australians at the moment it sets."

The wiki doesn't address this case at all. Be more specific.

It actually addresses just that.

Except that at the equinox, everyone sees the sun for approximately 12 hours, ie about half of the sun’s circular path.

The diagram above shows where the sun should be 5 hours past midday (not even sunset yet), and it’s already well out of position.

A simpler example is on the equator during the equinox, sunrise and sunset are 45 degrees out of position on the flat earth map.  It’s also significantly above the horizon, according to commonly given distances to the sun, although how much depends on exactly what diameter of equator and distance to sun you feel like using.

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JackBlack

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 02:29:38 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox
Do you have anything constructive to offer which might actually address the question?
The sun isn't like a car which can only be seen for a few km.
It can be seen for roughly 10000 km. That isn't small on the scale of Earth.

That argument would only apply if we had days that we only had less than an hour of daylight.

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rabinoz

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 04:19:26 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox
Quote from: TFES Wiki
A Flat Earth Equinox
Q. How can the sun rise from even within two degrees of Due East in the Flat Earth model?

A. This is a popular topic point, but is based on a common misconception. The top down views of the Flat Earth sun models might imply that the observer can see infinitely across the earth, and see the sun at all times. However, we cannot see infinitely into the distance. The distance to the our horizon is limited to a very finite circle around us. We cannot see that far.
But whatever anybody says we can often see the sun quite clearly at sunrise, like this:

Sunrise - Black Sea HD, kalcymc - sun  part risen
     
Sunrise - Black Sea HD, kalcymc - sun  risen
I have some similar photos but they are taken just after the official rise because I don't have a view over a clear ocean horizon.

The equator circle has a radius of close to 10,000 km.
Hence from anywhere south of the equator, as I am, at either equinox the sun must be over 14,000 km from the observer - simple geometry.
Since that is undoubtedly the distance to the sun and we see it rising we obviously can see that far.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
The distance to the horizon is limited by the thickness of the atmolayer. The atmolayer is not perfectly transparent. At night when we look out at where the sun would be across the plane of the earth we are looking into hundreds of miles of fog, and thus the sun is dark and unseen.
The "distance to the horizon" might be "limited" but that limit obviously does not apply to the distance to the sun.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
Beneath and around the sun is a circular area of light, which represents day.
No, if you check the illuminated area of the earth at the equinox it must be a semi-circle and cannot be a circle.
On a rectangular map the illuminated area for a September equinox looks like this:

Day and Night World Map Sep 23 2017
The rounded corners of the day-night transition are partly because the time of sunrise is defined as the time the sun's top "edge" first appears and disappears.
Then the day length is lengthened a little near the poles because of about 0.5° of refraction at the horizon.
That night-day boundary can found from either Timeanddate.com or simply checking at an equinox with people across the earth.

The simple "geometric area" that is illuminated by the sun on the Ice-Wall map has to be something like this:


Quote from: TFES Wiki
The sun is projecting its image upon the thickness of the atmolayer around it (see Magnification of the Sun at Sunset). This image of the sun upon the atmolayer has been colloquially termed the apparent sun. Along the edges of the suns circular area of light is sunrise. When the circle of the sun's light intersects with the observer's personal circle, or "dome", of vision, sunrise will occur for that observer.

During Equinox the sun is over the equator, with its circular area of light pivoting around the point of the North Pole.
Sorry, there's no "circular area" and I suspect that the claim of circular area is no more than an assumption.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
The points on the edge of the sun's circular area of light are tracing along the latitude lines, the time of the Equinox being a circle pivoting around itself.
Why is that even slightly relevant? The light from the sun does not travel "along the latitude lines". It travels in near straight lines to the observer.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
Further, the circlular latitude of the equator is very large,
and if one were to zoom into a segment of that circle, down to human standards of an observer's small circle of vision, down to a town/personal scale, the curve of the equator beneath the observer would straighten out. The latitude line beneath you locally is relatively straight.
Again that is not relevant because the sunlight does travel along those latitude lines.
From where I live, at sunrise the sun has to be over 14,000 miles and the geometry would look like this.

Ice Ring Map - Sunrise Equinox Australia
Now if the sunlight travels in very nearly straight lines the Ice-Wall map would indicate that the sun should rise 37° East of North but I know that it rises due East, at least within a degree or so because that's the best I can measure direction.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East.
Possibly ly it might, but that bears no relation to the direction the sunlight appears to come from - that is the straight line from the sun to the observer.

Quote from: TFES Wiki
The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how close to East the sun will appear in its initial bearing.

Consider the following:

If there was a race car (or jet ski) racing along the surface of the earth to you on your circular latitude line, and you only see it when it is nearby, would you see it from the East or very near the East? If so, then that is the answer.
That analogy is meaningless because the jet ski or racing car could be see for only a short distance but the sun can be seen when it's my thousands of kilometres away.

So if you expect anyone to be convinced by that Wiki entry you need to provide evidence that the sunlight can curve around the latitude lines  like this.
And you have not done so.

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wise

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 05:46:09 AM »
I just put this one here then I am going out with all speed.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2157761#new
1+2+3+...+∞= 1


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sokarul

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 07:18:49 AM »
I just put this one here then I am going out with all speed.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2157761#new
You force 2d lines on 3d systems. It doesn’t work.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 07:41:09 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Why Dr. Tom Bishop, the great Flat Earth zetetic! How good of you to grace us with your presence!

Unfortunately, your linked wiki post is absolute trash!

Look at what it says:

Quote
The atmolayer is not perfectly transparent. At night when we look out at where the sun would be across the plane of the earth we are looking into hundreds of miles of fog, and thus the sun is dark and unseen.
(https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox)

But look at my diagram below and you can see that at sunset (or sunrise) the sun is visible 8600 miles away!

That wiki article is absolute and complete trash! And it certainly doesn't explain why the sun rises in the East on the equinox even when it is multiple thousands of miles away, still *brightly* visible, and 40 degrees north south of where Flat Earth Theory says it must be!

Has the great Flat Earth zetetic got anything better for us this fine day? Pretty please? ;D



EDIT:Just in case you missed the point, you must remember that the sun travels along above the equatorial path on a flat earth. That path is over 30,000 miles long.
Since it does it every 24 hours, that's over a thousand miles an hour.

What this means for the mentally challenged among us, quite possibly including myself, is that if the sun is only visible from 500 miles, then on the equator, the day would only be 1 hour long. Half an hour as the sun approached, and half an hour as the sun receded.

Like I said, anybody who says the sun is only visible if it's within a few hundred miles has got their thinker in park.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 12:04:07 AM by Tom Foolery »

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wise

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 12:11:56 PM »
I just put this one here then I am going out with all speed.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2157761#new
You force 2d lines on 3d systems. It doesn’t work.

We call this simulating 3d to 2d, not forcing anything. It works.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1


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JackBlack

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Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 01:30:45 PM »
I just put this one here then I am going out with all speed.
We have been over your shadows before. You simply don't understand how a 3D world works.
You are yet to show any actual issue with Earth being 3D or with the sun, and repeatedly refused to perform simple experiments which if you were correct could easily show that.

Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2019, 12:00:50 AM »
We call this simulating 3d to 2d, not forcing anything. It works.

howdy Wise,
so are you agreeing then that the sun actually is let's say 40 degrees north of due west when it sets, but it just *looks* like it's nearly due west, and that something is bending the light?

How could I demonstrate this with a flashlight in a dark room?

Re: Observed sunset location impossible for flat earth
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 12:12:04 AM »
Quote
The atmolayer is not perfectly transparent. At night when we look out at where the sun would be across the plane of the earth we are looking into hundreds of miles of fog, and thus the sun is dark and unseen.
(https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox)

I still can't get over the absurdity of that wiki entry.

I mean, who hasn't seen the sun set?

During clear weather, it is commonly visible minutes before it sets - still often blindingly bright - all the way down to the horizon, then in just minutes it's totally invisible.

If it was going through miles and miles of fog, and that is what causes it to vanish, then it would fade out more and more until it was just barely visible then eventually not at all visible.

It wouldn't be blindingly bright for 12 hours then *bam* it totally vanishes over a few minutes time.

I think this is definitely proof against a flat earth.