When did the flat earth conspiracy start? and why?

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

People just initially thought Earth was flat without actually thinking about it.

People then started noticing observations which didn't match and thus suggested Earth was round.
Some others also probably thought a sphere was a more perfect shape than a flat Earth and suggested Earth was round.

With this the vast majority of people began accepting Earth was round.

But then recently people have started claiming it is flat. It seems to have been spurred up by Rowbotham, who screwed up a measurement and claimed Earth was flat and didn't want to admit he was wrong and thus started a cult.

The earliest reliably documented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 6th century BC when it appeared in ancient Greek philosophy. It was 300 odd years later that Eratosthenes went a step further in the 3rd century BC and fairly accurately calculated its circumference.

But then recently people have started claiming it is flat.

I'm not sure this is just a recent thing, or now has more visibility only because of the internet.

If anyone wants to get a pretty solid history as to the more modern FE movement (1800's on), I thought Garwood's "Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea" was a good read.

My take is that burgeoning empiricism of the scientific method in the 17/1800's led to sort of a backlash especially when science was seemingly seen more and more as stepping on the hallowed grounds of religious belief, scriptural dogma. Fast forward to today and there is definitely still a scriptural leaning throughout the community though not so much here. In essence, 'the conspiracy' can be observed as perhaps two-fold and in part, can be mutually exclusive:

- RET going against scriptural literalism; science conspiring to unseat God as an authority
- RET hiding the true shape of the earth for profit (NASA), scientific hubris (Copernicus, Einstein, et al)

I'm sure there's a lot more, just the two standouts from what I've seen.

Here's a diagram I threw together a while ago showing the modern societies progression:

I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

The "ancients" of Sumeria, Babylon, the Greek empire and the Chinese all believed that the earth was flat because "it looked flat" and they had no reason to question that.

But over the period from 500-300 BC the as the Greeks, presumably because they started to travel further, questioned whether the earth could be flat.
And by about 300 BC the Globe was the "accepted" chape.
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So as far as I can work out this conspiracy must have been started by NASA over 2300 years ago.
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You might get some different answers from:
      FLAT EARTH Clues Introduction - Mark Sargent and some commentary on that in Mark Sargent 'Flat Earth Clues' Part 1 by Bob the Science Guy.
I believe that there are 6 now 9 parts altogether and Mark Sargent himself admits "I was and still am a huge conspiracy guy!
So you should get your fill of answers to "When did the flat earth conspiracy start?" from all that.

But Mark Sargent implies that the earth was considered flat until about 500 years ago when supposedly Copernicus claimed that the earth was a Globe.
There is, however, plenty of evidence that the earth was considered a Globe by most in Western Europe and in the Middle East well over a millennium before Copernicus.

But Mark Sargent does spin a "convincing tale", but it's just a "convincing tale".

Quote from: JackBlack on March 11, 2019, 04:47:46 PM

But then recently people have started claiming it is flat.

I'm not sure this is just a recent thing, or now has more visibility only because of the internet.

By recently I mean roughly 200 years.

Although it was only a little bit earlier that the Chinese accepted Earth was round.

But the new movement stems from those 200 years ago and is quite disconnected from the ancient FE models.
In the ancient models the sun would literally set going below Earth. In the new FE models, it circles around above Earth and just magically appears to set.

The roots of globularism trace to the Pythagorean number cult. They believed the earth, like the counter-earth and other objects in the heavens, was a sphere as the sphere was their perfect shape.

The roots of globularism trace to the Pythagorean number cult. They believed the earth, like the counter-earth and other objects in the heavens, was a sphere as the sphere was their perfect shape.

It's not that the sphere is their perfect shape, a sphere is the perfect shape in terms of efficiency of entropy.

There is every evidence that the earth is shaped like a sphere and absolutely none that the earth is shaped like a flat disc.
So it is no wonder why some of us wonder why anyone would think , much less believe , that the earth is flat ?
I really think that just some people pretend to be "flat Earth Believers" for the sake of argument.

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

Jesus has started.

When he has claimed the Devil has showed him all the Kingdoms from a high mountain, it means the earth is flat. So, the first Flat Earther is Jesus in known history.

And the second flat earther is Mohammad. When he read quran people, said God's creating the earth "like a carpet". It also means flat again.

All most historical scientists including "Biruni" said the earth's being flat. But fake science has manipulated it. It is clear that books we are reading are manipulated by globularist mafia. Biruni said the earth's being round. But after that people have thought he means globe meaning round. Then he said "I mean the shape of circle with round, not meaning of like a ball". But you can find this speech in so rarely sources.

Because there is a hoax in progress trying to convince people to the historical scientists were saying the earths being round. So that they are puting forward whose say the earth's being round, but they are hiding the truth whose say the earths being flat. Like how Darwin was actually a religious man but they have manipulated his thoughts for use them for atheism, their main task is deceive people. Anyways. In short;

Flat Earth Theory is older than at least Jesus.

So, the first Flat Earther is Jesus in known history.

You mean in mythology. Don't worry, there were plenty before him.
What about Job, which describes the circle of Earth, and God sitting above it?

All most historical scientists including "Biruni" said the earth's being flat.

There is no basis to think any of them thought Earth was flat, but plenty showing they thought Earth was round, including Biruni, with their method of calculating the radius of the spherical Earth by using the dip angle to the horizon.

Then he said "I mean the shape of circle with round, not meaning of like a ball".

So he thought Earth was like a coin with us living on the edge?

Flat Earth Theory is older than at least Jesus.

But the FE models of old (they weren't theory) are nothing like the modern FE models and have more in common with the modern RE model.

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

Before anyone goes down the road of supposedly sizing up the Earth they need to actually put their mind into gear and figure out how this Eratosthenes managed to do what he did when he supposedly noticed this well, lit up and finding that it didn't correspond to another place 500 miles away.
I mean, did he phone his mate up?
Did his mate have telepathy?
Did he walk to the other place with his yardstick and wheel?

Our life is based on little fictional storytelling of history that is potentially so far off the beaten track as to be rendered nothing more than simply readable fictional stories.

"I can see the bottom of the well lit up, send a carrier pigeon to let my best mate know, so he can say his well wasn't lit up like mine."

What a load of effing nonsense.
Yeah..and I used the carrier pigeon as just another joke in the series of jokes that this stuff is.

People today find it hard to read and write but in those days they had libraries and what not. Not to mention super scientists and books and stationary etc to sort out what we can't fathom even today.

People need to wake up with all these supposed historical facts.

Let me tell you something.
If Eratosthenes and co could do what they did in those times, then the technology we have today would not have just came about within just 100 years.

It's almost like we took a time out and then restarted.

When stories need to be spun into fact from a fiction to suit a narrative then there's your history which people will follow and the real steadfast followers of the whole written stories becomes the major memory experts and can now reel those stories off mostly by heart.
Are they experts in history? .....No.
They are experts at memorising the written stories of whoever decided to write them at whatever times, which could have been many many many hundreds of years later than what was told.

We live in a world of storytelling bullcrap that saturates the actually storytelling facts, to then become indistinguishable from those facts.

To think we are born and will die with our heads crammed with nothing more than historical fiction and little known facts.
What a sad state of affairs for living in.

Quote from: Ozymandias74 on March 11, 2019, 03:39:20 PM

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

Before anyone goes down the road of supposedly sizing up the Earth they need to actually put their mind into gear and figure out how this Eratosthenes managed to do what he did when he supposedly noticed this well, lit up and finding that it didn't correspond to another place 500 miles away.

I can't ask Eratosthenes but he probably had observed on previous visits to Syene the the sun shone directly down that well every June Solstice.
He may even have had an observer in Syene who reported back to Eratosthenes in "his" great library in Alexandria.
Whatever happened I see no great difficulty and similar measurements have been done many times.

These days you could do the same sort of experiment far more easily. So if you don't believe Eratosthenes go and you it yourself.

Then this describes how Al-Biruni measured the earth's radius using a quite different  method: Measuring the earth's radius 1000 years ago
And earlier:

Geography and cartography in medieval Islam
Mathematical geography and geodesy
Around 830, Caliph al-Ma'mun commissioned a group of astronomers to measure the distance from Tadmur (Palmyra) to al-Raqqah, in modern Syria. They found the cities to be separated by one degree of latitude and the distance between them to be 66 2/3 miles and thus calculated the Earth's circumference to be 24,000 miles (39,000 km).[35] Another estimate given was 56 2/3 Arabic miles per degree, which corresponds to 111.8 km per degree and a circumference of 40,248 km, very close to the currently modern values of 111.3 km per degree and 40,068 km circumference, respectively

By that time there were far more accurate instruments available.

But the main point is that the Eratosthenes measurement was not a "one-off" as better equipment became available more accurate measurements were made but note that, what the method the resulting circumference is close to the modern value.

Before anyone goes down the road of supposedly sizing up the Earth they need to actually put their mind into gear and figure out how this Eratosthenes managed to do what he did

Yes, and actually figure it out, rather than just resort to ridicule.
Also note that he wasn't determining if Earth was round, just figuring out the size.

when he supposedly noticed this well, lit up and finding that it didn't correspond to another place 500 miles away.

I know this might be surprising to you, but not everyone lives in a basement and spends all their time there.
Some people actually get out and move around.
Sometimes when they did this they wanted to have maps to know where different places were and how far apart they were.
Even the ancient Greeks had rudimentary maps.
They can also notice easily observable, repeatable phenomenon.
Sure, it wasn't exactly 500 miles, but it was approximately that, result in an estimate of the size of Earth.

If Eratosthenes and co could do what they did in those times, then the technology we have today would not have just came about within just 100 years.
It's almost like we took a time out and then restarted.

Yes, it's called the dark ages.
Civilisation collapsed, with a variety of possible reasons as to why.
Similar things could happen to today's society.

So once again, you have no actual problems to point out, just childish ridicule.

And perhaps far more importantly, with today's technology you can easily do such an experiment yourself.

My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

The Universal Zetetic Society was followed by the Flat Earth Society.

It is likely that no one is hiding the shape of the Earth; NASA is, more likely, committing a space travel conspiracy.

Quote from: Ozymandias74 on March 11, 2019, 03:39:20 PM

My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

The Universal Zetetic Society was followed by the Flat Earth Society.

It is likely that no one is hiding the shape of the Earth; NASA is, more likely, committing a space travel conspiracy.

So "no one is hiding the shape of the Earth; NASA is, more likely, committing a space travel conspiracy."

I suppose that would mean the photos of earth from space taken by other countries, especially a then cold-war enemy, might be genuine.
If they are not genuine why would they fake the photos to make the earth seem to be a Globe.

Here are photos of the Globe from Russia and Japan, no NASA.


And then there is this "earth rising" photo taken, not from Apollo 8 but taken by a Russian spacecraft:
And the answer to "When did the flat earth conspiracy start? and why?" is, possibly, in here with Samuel Shenton's claim:

The Flat Earth
The flat earth in the late 20th century.
The society received quite a bit of publicity when Shenton was shown photos of the 'round' earth taken from space. At first he wasn't impressed, saying "It's easy to see how such a picture could fool the untrained eye." [Indeed, a "bug-eye" wide-angle camera lens can produce a similar effect.] Later, some reports said he admitted that the Flat Earth Society might have to "reassess its position." But, after a brief period of uncertainty, he concluded that the space photos and the entire space program was faked by scientists desperately trying to save face by concealing the true nature of the shape of the earth.

Sound familiar? Donald Simanek's whole publication is worth reading for historical interest.

Quote from: Ozymandias74 on March 11, 2019, 03:39:20 PM

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

Before anyone goes down the road of supposedly sizing up the Earth they need to actually put their mind into gear and figure out how this Eratosthenes managed to do what he did when he supposedly noticed this well, lit up and finding that it didn't correspond to another place 500 miles away.
I mean, did he phone his mate up?
Did his mate have telepathy?
Did he walk to the other place with his yardstick and wheel?

Our life is based on little fictional storytelling of history that is potentially so far off the beaten track as to be rendered nothing more than simply readable fictional stories.

"I can see the bottom of the well lit up, send a carrier pigeon to let my best mate know, so he can say his well wasn't lit up like mine."

What a load of effing nonsense.
Yeah..and I used the carrier pigeon as just another joke in the series of jokes that this stuff is.

People today find it hard to read and write but in those days they had libraries and what not. Not to mention super scientists and books and stationary etc to sort out what we can't fathom even today.

People need to wake up with all these supposed historical facts.

Let me tell you something.
If Eratosthenes and co could do what they did in those times, then the technology we have today would not have just came about within just 100 years.

It's almost like we took a time out and then restarted.

When stories need to be spun into fact from a fiction to suit a narrative then there's your history which people will follow and the real steadfast followers of the whole written stories becomes the major memory experts and can now reel those stories off mostly by heart.
Are they experts in history? .....No.
They are experts at memorising the written stories of whoever decided to write them at whatever times, which could have been many many many hundreds of years later than what was told.

We live in a world of storytelling bullcrap that saturates the actually storytelling facts, to then become indistinguishable from those facts.

To think we are born and will die with our heads crammed with nothing more than historical fiction and little known facts.
What a sad state of affairs for living in.

It's funny how people like you ask others to open their eyes and observe for themselves. But when such observation is made and counters or disproves your position, you immediately ridicule it.

People can be very observant. And in those days when science (natural philosophy I think they called it) required and was limited to what could be observed with no tools to help, little "anomalies" of that sort were almost always observed.

It would have been an Eureka moment. Or in the words of Jeranism, "Interesting"

Quote from: Ozymandias74 on March 11, 2019, 03:39:20 PM

I did a bit of research and found that Eratosthenes first estimated that the earth was a globe in 240 BC.  This was the first time I found that someone actually tried to calculate the size of the round earth using a scientific approach.  Basically, he found that when the sun was directly overhead in 1 town, it lit the bottom of a well.  However in another time some distance away, the bottom of the well was not lit, the sun was at an angle.  Using trigonometry and knowing the distance between the 2 towns, he calculated the circumference of the earth.   he was about 5% off, not bad for the time. 
There was some others that believed in a round earth, including Pythagoras and Aristotle, several hundred years before this, but there estimates on the size were based more on rough guesses then scientific approaches. 
My question, how far back does the belief in a flat earth go.  When did people start trying to hide the truth that the earth was flat?   Not only that, but what was the original motivation for people to 'prove' the earth was round and hide the 'fact' that the earth is flat?
I ask this because I am curious if this whole flat earth movement is a recent thing or if its been around a long time.

Before anyone goes down the road of supposedly sizing up the Earth they need to actually put their mind into gear and figure out how this Eratosthenes managed to do what he did when he supposedly noticed this well, lit up and finding that it didn't correspond to another place 500 miles away.
I mean, did he phone his mate up?
Did his mate have telepathy?
Did he walk to the other place with his yardstick and wheel?

Our life is based on little fictional storytelling of history that is potentially so far off the beaten track as to be rendered nothing more than simply readable fictional stories.

"I can see the bottom of the well lit up, send a carrier pigeon to let my best mate know, so he can say his well wasn't lit up like mine."

What a load of effing nonsense.
Yeah..and I used the carrier pigeon as just another joke in the series of jokes that this stuff is.

People today find it hard to read and write but in those days they had libraries and what not. Not to mention super scientists and books and stationary etc to sort out what we can't fathom even today.

People need to wake up with all these supposed historical facts.

Let me tell you something.
If Eratosthenes and co could do what they did in those times, then the technology we have today would not have just came about within just 100 years.

It's almost like we took a time out and then restarted.

When stories need to be spun into fact from a fiction to suit a narrative then there's your history which people will follow and the real steadfast followers of the whole written stories becomes the major memory experts and can now reel those stories off mostly by heart.
Are they experts in history? .....No.
They are experts at memorising the written stories of whoever decided to write them at whatever times, which could have been many many many hundreds of years later than what was told.

We live in a world of storytelling bullcrap that saturates the actually storytelling facts, to then become indistinguishable from those facts.

To think we are born and will die with our heads crammed with nothing more than historical fiction and little known facts.
What a sad state of affairs for living in.

so you have no idea how they did it so it must be false? i watched a documentary forgot what it was called but when the romans took over a city they built an aquaduct that went from the mountains all the way down into the city to provide the city with water and the program said engineers of today have absolutely no idea how they managed to do it with such precision a couple of thousand years ago. Take the pyramids, i dont think any engineers of today have any clue on how to build a pyramid like that today let alone understand how they did it thousands of years ago.

in many ways we are dumber today than we were way back when. there are technological walls you hit until you are able to make something that allows technology to rapidly evolve again

Take the pyramids, i dont think any engineers of today have any clue on how to build a pyramid like that today

I agree with your general point about being no more or less intelligent than the ancient Egyptians, however this is nonsense.  A pyramid is one of the easiest structures to build, which is why we see them all over.  It's essentially just stacking bricks on top of each other - try it yourself with lego.  The great pyramids are an amazing feat of organisation and project management, but are not sophisticated engineering (by current standards).  We can now build stuff like this:

Quote from: psionicinversion on March 20, 2019, 05:35:56 AM

Take the pyramids, i dont think any engineers of today have any clue on how to build a pyramid like that today

I agree with your general point about being no more or less intelligent than the ancient Egyptians, however this is nonsense.  A pyramid is one of the easiest structures to build, which is why we see them all over.  It's essentially just stacking bricks on top of each other - try it yourself with lego.  The great pyramids are an amazing feat of organisation and project management, but are not sophisticated engineering (by current standards).  We can now build stuff like this:

i

i pyramid on its own is easy sure but what about all the passage ways and stuff inside it? i suppose it isnt any different than carving your way into a mountain. As for that bridge im betting the romans could have knocked something like that out easily if they had the tools to effectively build something that high

so you have no idea how they did it so it must be false? i watched a documentary forgot what it was called but when the romans took over a city they built an aquaduct that went from the mountains all the way down into the city to provide the city with water and the program said engineers of today have absolutely no idea how they managed to do it with such precision a couple of thousand years ago. Take the pyramids, i dont think any engineers of today have any clue on how to build a pyramid like that today let alone understand how they did it thousands of years ago.

in many ways we are dumber today than we were way back when. there are technological walls you hit until you are able to make something that allows technology to rapidly evolve again

It is more technological reliance.
As we have the technology to do it for us, we don't need to think of ways to do it without the technology and have lost a large portion of that history so we don't know how they did it.
We can still easy do it, just not like how they did.

What is the oldest document stating the Earth is flat?

It is more technological reliance.
As we have the technology to do it for us, we don't need to think of ways to do it without the technology and have lost a large portion of that history so we don't know how they did it.
We can still easy do it, just not like how they did.

We have to use technology these days, because we're not allowed slaves anymore.  Bloody progressives!

What is the oldest document stating the Earth is flat?

Either some fragments from Babylon as in:

Babylonian astronomy was the study or recording of celestial objects during early history Mesopotamia. These records can be found on Sumerian clay tablets, inscribed in cuneiform, dated approximately to 3500–3200 BC.

Or possible ancient Chinese records:Brief Introduction to Ancient Chinese Cosmology

A 2,000-year-old Chinese stone sundale unearthed from an East Han tomb