What do RE and FE agree on?

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What do RE and FE agree on?
« on: March 11, 2019, 03:25:50 PM »
Everyone always argues what RE and FE disagree on.   Is there anything that both sides can agree on?

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 03:31:45 PM »
Oh sure. We all agree that a good to-scale flat map would be a wonderfully useful thing for everybody.

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2019, 03:55:01 PM »

That Were-penguins is an awesome game, you should play.
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boydster

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2019, 03:58:53 PM »
Things generally have a tendency to fall down when dropped.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2019, 04:12:46 PM »
It looks flat.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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boydster

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »
Many people on both sides of the matter like peanut butter. Those that don't, are wrong.

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2019, 04:58:26 PM »
Many people on both sides of the matter like peanut butter. Those that don't, are wrong.

Good to see you making sense!

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Username

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 05:47:08 PM »
We both agree that as much truth as one can be had can be discerned through experience.
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rabinoz

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 09:11:45 PM »
It looks flat.
Full marks to the angel with a halo!

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2019, 10:14:42 PM »
It looks flat.
Actually, yeah, I think we all agree that 99% of the time in our daily lives it looks flat.
When we start pulling out the theodolite, water level, and straight edge, then things may get rather interesting. But definitely in our work-a-day lives it does look flat.

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JackBlack

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2019, 10:24:31 PM »
I disagree.
It doesn't look flat in the slightest.
At the small scale there are plenty of variations with hills and mountains and buildings.
Far too much to consider it as flat.

What I would agree with is that at that level you will not see the curvature of Earth.

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2019, 10:30:55 PM »
I disagree.
It doesn't look flat in the slightest.
At the small scale there are plenty of variations with hills and mountains and buildings.
Far too much to consider it as flat.

What I would agree with is that at that level you will not see the curvature of Earth.
Well, if you don't see curvature most of the time, then how can you not say that it looks flat most of the time?
But ultimately we agree; in the daily lives for most people, it does look flat. No curve is readily observed.

Nor would it be, on a curved earth:
Even a mountain 75 miles away is only 3750 feet lower than it should be. Nobody's going to notice that. At a hundred miles it's almost 6700 feet lower, but that's about the limit to see a mountain anyway due to haze.
So people aren't going to notice without using a water level or a theodolite.

And the curve of the horizon? Again, it's such a small curve, most people aren't going to notice that it's not a straight line when they are peering out a little airplane window.

And the dip of the horizon? Again, a few degrees down even at 5000 feet elevation. Unless you take a water level, most people will feel like the horizon rises to eyelevel.

Now.. Take a water level or a theodolite and start measuring and a whole new globe opens up to you.
Check that horizon with  a straight edge, and explore new worlds.

That's all I'm saying.

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 12:04:38 AM »
It doesn't look flat though, does it?

Sure, on land it can be hard to tell because of all the bumps and stuff, but at sea it visibly curves away in all directions. How is that flat?

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rabinoz

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 01:59:09 AM »
It doesn't look flat though, does it?

Sure, on land it can be hard to tell because of all the bumps and stuff, but at sea it visibly curves away in all directions. How is that flat?
Sorry to disagree but from near sea-level (here about 2 m above) in the transverse direction the horizon is so close to straight that you could ignore any curve:

And that photo was with a good camera and normal, 50 mm equiv, lens.

So it looks ;) flat . . . . but:

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 03:14:21 AM »
We both agree that as much truth as one can be had can be discerned through experience.

I may have misunderstood this, but based on what I think it means, then no, I don't agree with this.

By "we", I'm assuming you mean the RE and the FE communities.

By "experience", I'm assuming you mean personal experience.

There are a lot of things I accept as truth without personal experience. I believe Japan exists although I've never been there. I believe we went to the moon in '69.

If there's enough supporting evidence for something from sources I find credible, then I'm normally a believer. If the evidence base shifts or sources are convincingly discredited then I shrug my shoulders and change my opinion.

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 10:10:22 AM »
We both agree that as much truth as one can be had can be discerned through experience.

Many more truths can be had than simply those which can be experienced. For example, we can't experience radio waves, building the pyramids of Egypt, geometry, or what another person is feeling. Nonetheless, these truths are evident.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." Abraham Lincoln

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Username

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 11:40:51 AM »
We both agree that as much truth as one can be had can be discerned through experience.

Many more truths can be had than simply those which can be experienced. For example, we can't experience radio waves, building the pyramids of Egypt, geometry, or what another person is feeling. Nonetheless, these truths are evident.
I disagree; the only way we know anything - whether its about radio or history or geometry is through sense experience. That and mysticism.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 12:56:12 PM by John Davis »
Quantum Ab Hoc

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"The above proposition is occasionally useful." - Bertrand Russell

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 12:53:14 PM »
It doesn't look flat though, does it?

Sure, on land it can be hard to tell because of all the bumps and stuff, but at sea it visibly curves away in all directions. How is that flat?
Sorry to disagree but from near sea-level (here about 2 m above) in the transverse direction the horizon is so close to straight that you could ignore any curve:

And that photo was with a good camera and normal, 50 mm equiv, lens.

So it looks ;) flat . . . . but:

I wasn't referring to a curving horizon, but the fact that there is a horizon! The transverse curvature is imperceptible, of course, but the longitudinal curvature is plain to see!

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boydster

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2019, 01:07:21 PM »
I think we can all agree that ketchup is the best vegetable.

Sure, some may come here to argue that tomatoes are fruits but then they obviously aren't really paying attention to what I actually wrote. Others may posit that some other veggie is better, but there are loonies on both sides of any argument.

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JackBlack

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2019, 01:08:46 PM »
Well, if you don't see curvature most of the time, then how can you not say that it looks flat most of the time?
But ultimately we agree; in the daily lives for most people, it does look flat. No curve is readily observed.
I don't see the large scale curvature of Earth. I see the irregularities of Earth, which is still not flat.

But I do agree that no curve is easily observed without instruments (but the results of it sure are), I also think no large expanse of flatness is readily observed.

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2019, 03:04:07 PM »
I disagree; the only way we know anything - whether its about radio or history or geometry is through sense experience. That and mysticism.

Well sure, so long as you classify learning from others with your eyes (as in reading) or with your ears (as in listening about something done by someone elsewhere) as being through "sense experience".  But not through mysticism, or from ghosts or dreams or your imagination.

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Username

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2019, 03:17:28 PM »
I disagree; the only way we know anything - whether its about radio or history or geometry is through sense experience. That and mysticism.

Well sure, so long as you classify learning from others with your eyes (as in reading) or with your ears (as in listening about something done by someone elsewhere) as being through "sense experience".  But not through mysticism, or from ghosts or dreams or your imagination.
How do you explain the thousands of advances in engineering and technology due to mysticism?

For example, Tesla's invention of the ac motor while hallucinating a burning wheel in the park; Roger Penrose visiting a 'purely mathematical realm' to gain insight on his mathematics; Thomas Crick discovering the structure of DNA on acid.
Quantum Ab Hoc

1 + 1 = 2
"The above proposition is occasionally useful." - Bertrand Russell

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JackBlack

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2019, 03:36:54 PM »
How do you explain the thousands of advances in engineering and technology due to mysticism?

For example, Tesla's invention of the ac motor while hallucinating a burning wheel in the park; Roger Penrose visiting a 'purely mathematical realm' to gain insight on his mathematics; Thomas Crick discovering the structure of DNA on acid.
Their mind projecting subconscious thoughts to their conscious.
No mysticism required.

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Username

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2019, 03:40:26 PM »
How do you explain the thousands of advances in engineering and technology due to mysticism?

For example, Tesla's invention of the ac motor while hallucinating a burning wheel in the park; Roger Penrose visiting a 'purely mathematical realm' to gain insight on his mathematics; Thomas Crick discovering the structure of DNA on acid.
Their mind projecting subconscious thoughts to their conscious.
No mysticism required.
I imagine it depends greatly on how you define mystical experiences. I go with William James' definition:

1. Ineffable
2. Noetic
3. Transient
4. Passive


I would say that these examples (and many many others) fit that definition.
Quantum Ab Hoc

1 + 1 = 2
"The above proposition is occasionally useful." - Bertrand Russell

Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2019, 08:03:40 PM »
Use whatever definition you want.  Mysticism does not produce knowledge any more than evidence-free imagination (UA, flat earth, and plastic domes) does.

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Stash

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2019, 08:24:55 PM »
All I know is that Doc Ellis dropped a pre-game tab of Orange Sunshine on his tongue and went on to throw a no-hitter against the Padres in 1970. Strokes of brilliance come in many flavors and under many guises.
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2019, 09:19:09 PM »
Everyone always argues what RE and FE disagree on.   Is there anything that both sides can agree on?


Lasagna

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2019, 01:12:34 AM »

Yeah, you say that but I do vegetarian Lasagna, which is better than Lasagna with corpse in it!
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.



Life is meaningless and everything dies.

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Bullwinkle

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2019, 01:21:39 AM »
That's fine if you prefer compost.

It's still lasagna.   ;D

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JackBlack

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Re: What do RE and FE agree on?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2019, 02:40:05 AM »
Yeah, you say that but I do vegetarian Lasagna, which is better than Lasagna with corpse in it!
Lasagne with corpses in it taste much better.
I guess it is just the delicious taste of indirect murder. So nice.