Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?

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Ski

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 04:19:35 PM »
I'm not interested in spoon-feeding you or being your dancing monkey. If you aren't capable or willing to form a thought of your own on a given subject, why are we having any sort of dialogue regarding that subject?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 05:09:57 PM »
It's actually postulated that the atmoplanic pressure must have been much larger in antiquity. According to aerodynamic theory, large flying dinosaurs (and insects) would have required 3.7-5bar atmoplanic pressure. It's also been proposed that Earth's earliest at atmoplane had an initial pressure of 90bar.

Did you get that from Wattsupwiththat?

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 05:17:29 PM »
I'm not interested in spoon-feeding you or being your dancing monkey. If you aren't capable or willing to form a thought of your own on a given subject, why are we having any sort of dialogue regarding that subject?

But I'm interested in what your thoughts are, I'm not a mind reader, I can't know what you're thinking or what you're trying to imply.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 09:59:39 PM »
One might also ask:
Why doesn't all the air leak out from the Globe to the infinite vacuum of space ;)?

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 05:03:29 AM »
Shifter posted
Quote
What you believe to be stars ARE the vent holes.

Vent holes that glow in the dark and circle around in the night sky? Yeah, that make sense and should be easy to prove with logic.

It must be colder out there on the outside of the universe, where the vent holes are venting the heat to. All we have to do is apply the formula for heat transfer, Q = mcΔT, plug in the appropriate values, and bingo, a whole new picture to replace the Hertzsprung–Russell diagram.

So, it's just a coincidence that so many of those vent holes happen to glow the same as the Sun (Class G stellar spectra)? Oh, wait, the Sun must be one of those vent holes too! Well, that's good. Being so close to the Earth, and so much bigger than all those other vent holes, the Sun helps to keep the Earth cool.

I love it when all the facts fit together so well to give us a better understanding of the universe.

Those vent holes also move in relation to each other in an annual cycle. Some of them even seem to orbit around each other if you look closely enough.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2019, 12:21:42 PM »
One might also ask:
Why doesn't all the air leak out from the Globe to the infinite vacuum of space ;)?

it doesn't because Gravity holds it down

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2019, 02:23:32 PM »
One might also ask:
Why doesn't all the air leak out from the Globe to the infinite vacuum of space ;)?

Indeed, a good question. Some of the lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium do just float away. As shown recently, the atmosphere actually extends past the moon - https://phys.org/news/2019-02-earth-atmosphere-moon.html

So think about just how high that edge wall needs to be.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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Ski

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 09:56:20 PM »
I'm not interested in spoon-feeding you or being your dancing monkey. If you aren't capable or willing to form a thought of your own on a given subject, why are we having any sort of dialogue regarding that subject?

But I'm interested in what your thoughts are, I'm not a mind reader, I can't know what you're thinking or what you're trying to imply.

I'm asking you to take your thoughts to a conclusion... You are unwilling or unable. Why on heaven's name should I devote more time and effort than you will?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 10:00:14 PM »
It's actually postulated that the atmoplanic pressure must have been much larger in antiquity. According to aerodynamic theory, large flying dinosaurs (and insects) would have required 3.7-5bar atmoplanic pressure. It's also been proposed that Earth's earliest at atmoplane had an initial pressure of 90bar.

Did you get that from Wattsupwiththat?

I don't know what that is.

Look up aerodynamic theory dinosaurs atmospheric pressure, etc if you need a source. It is a well known dilemna.  Mouse-to-elephant curve is another related discussion that has gotten scientific interest.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2019, 02:50:34 PM »
I'm asking you to take your thoughts to a conclusion... You are unwilling or unable. Why on heaven's name should I devote more time and effort than you will?

My conclusion is that the edge wall can't exist, to keep the air in it would have to be so tall that it would be easily visible from many parts of a flat earth. If there is no wall then what is keeping the air in?
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2019, 03:31:33 PM »
Are you saying that the wall would have to be equal height of a round earth atmospheric layer?

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2019, 03:39:14 PM »
Are you saying that the wall would have to be equal height of a round earth atmospheric layer?

Yes.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2019, 01:57:16 AM »
Are you saying that the wall would have to be equal height of a round earth atmospheric layer?

Yes.
Are you aware that if Earth is infinite, then as gravity would not diminish with height, it would need to be much smaller.
For example, you state that the atmosphere extends past the moon, which is 400 000 km away in the RE model.
That is roughly 62 times the size of Earth, and that means gravity out there is roughly one 4000th of what it is at the surface of Earth. But for the infinite FE model gravity doesn't diminish like that.
Also note it claims the sun is 5000 km high, but isn't seen all over Earth.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2019, 09:32:59 AM »
It's actually postulated that the atmoplanic pressure must have been much larger in antiquity. According to aerodynamic theory, large flying dinosaurs (and insects) would have required 3.7-5bar atmoplanic pressure. It's also been proposed that Earth's earliest at atmoplane had an initial pressure of 90bar.

Did you get that from Wattsupwiththat?

I don't know what that is.

Look up aerodynamic theory dinosaurs atmospheric pressure, etc if you need a source. It is a well known dilemna.  Mouse-to-elephant curve is another related discussion that has gotten scientific interest.

It’s a site with a political agenda, namely to say that climate change isn’t something to worry about.

It’s also the only one I could quickly find saying what you did, by searching for things like “pterosaur air pressure”.

Other sites I found either suggested the mass/size ratio shouldn’t have been a problem, or there was too much we don’t know about them.

If you have a link, it would help.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2019, 04:19:58 PM »
Yes.
Are you aware that if Earth is infinite, then as gravity would not diminish with height, it would need to be much smaller.
Gravity? What's become of the UA? But anyway, surely gravity would decrease on an inverse square law as you move away from the plane of the flat Earth? Either way, we know the atmospheric pressure at various altitudes and it drops as expected.

Quote
For example, you state that the atmosphere extends past the moon, which is 400 000 km away in the RE model.
Well, I'm just linking to research by ESA/NASA and the Russian Space Research Institute.

Quote
Also note it claims the sun is 5000 km high, but isn't seen all over Earth.

We sorted that in another thread. The sun has a lamp shade around it so the whole FE doesn't get lit.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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boydster

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2019, 05:27:52 PM »
Yes.
Are you aware that if Earth is infinite, then as gravity would not diminish with height, it would need to be much smaller.
Gravity? What's become of the UA? But anyway, surely gravity would decrease on an inverse square law as you move away from the plane of the flat Earth? Either way, we know the atmospheric pressure at various altitudes and it drops as expected.
You are almost to the point where you can start having meaningful dialog now. UA is not the only postulated alternative to Gravity. On an infinite plane, you could have something very similar to Gravity at the surface without the need for UA, and Jack is correct that it would not decrease as you move away from the surface. I am forgetting the name for that principle. Hopefully someone can jump in with that. But that's not even all there is. There is pressure-based gravity (a la denpressure), there is a modified UA with celestial gravitation, and I'm sure there are more that I'm just forgetting at the moment. It's important to be clear what FE framework you want to discuss when you are asking questions or challenging ideas. That way, the people responding know where to begin.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2019, 12:36:39 AM »
Gravity? What's become of the UA? But anyway, surely gravity would decrease on an inverse square law as you move away from the plane of the flat Earth?
Not if it is an infinite flat Earth.

One easy way to think of it is as a ball, but have the distance be a function of the radius.
So for example, surface gravity is 9.8 m/s^2, and that is at a distance of 1, the radius of Earth.
To have it decrease to 1/4 of that you need to go to a distance of 2.
For the RE that is ~6371 km above the surface, as the radius is ~6371 km.
For an infinite FE (approximated as a ball), that is ~∞ km above the surface, as the radius is ~∞ km.

Either way, we know the atmospheric pressure at various altitudes and it drops as expected.
For the altitudes we "know" (i.e. those which don't rely upon space which would just allow us to use photos of Earth) the value of g used is basically the same.

We sorted that in another thread. The sun has a lamp shade around it so the whole FE doesn't get lit.
If that was the case it would just vanish high in the sky as the shade obscures it.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2019, 09:44:04 AM »
But anyway, surely gravity would decrease on an inverse square law as you move away from the plane of the flat Earth?
No. Think of it this way. For a globe earth the gravity "emanates" from an area equal to the surface of the earth, or 4*Pi*r^2 where r is the earth radius.  As you move out to a radius R, the area through which that gravity is projecting has grown by a factor of R^2/r^2 which is the reason it is weaker --  the same total gravity is now exerted over a much bigger area, so it's magnitude per unit area is less there. That's why the force of gravity "is inversely proportional to the square of the distance"

If the earth were infinite and flat, the area through which the gravity is projecting would stay the same (infinite) as at the earths surface, no matter how far away. So it's magnitude per unit area would be the same at all distances

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2019, 10:04:21 AM »

If the earth were infinite and flat, the area through which the gravity is projecting would stay the same (infinite) as at the earths surface, no matter how far away. So it's magnitude per unit area would be the same at all distances

Some infinite things can be larger than other infinite things.

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John Davis

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2019, 10:35:00 AM »
On an infinite plane, you could have something very similar to Gravity at the surface without the need for UA, and Jack is correct that it would not decrease as you move away from the surface. I am forgetting the name for that principle. Hopefully someone can jump in with that.
It follows directly from this:


Note the lack of an altitude.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2019, 12:04:34 PM »
To summarize options

Inf earth would have inf air layer but would also have issue with a constant "gravity" regardless of distance from surface.

There is a dome or ice wall holding in the air but then would struggle to explain away stars.

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2019, 02:19:07 PM »
Quote from: boydster
UA is not the only postulated alternative to Gravity. On an infinite plane, you could have something very similar to Gravity at the surface without the need for UA ...But that's not even all there is. There is pressure-based gravity (a la denpressure), there is a modified UA with celestial gravitation, and I'm sure there are more that I'm just forgetting at the moment
You guys need to decide which one it is. Using the scientific method should help.

Quote from: JackBlack
If that was the case it would just vanish high in the sky as the shade obscures it.
What, the shadow from the giant lampshade around the sun? It should be well lit all the way around in the southern summer. I don't think we could miss a wall thousands of miles high. Even moonlight would be enough. Or just bounce a radar or laser off it.

So we're still stuck with either a wall so high we couldn't possibly miss it or a lower hidden wall which leaks air.
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2019, 02:33:20 PM »

If the earth were infinite and flat, the area through which the gravity is projecting would stay the same (infinite) as at the earths surface, no matter how far away. So it's magnitude per unit area would be the same at all distances

Some infinite things can be larger than other infinite things.

No shit Shirley.  Do you ever actually contribute anything?

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2019, 05:03:37 PM »
Quote from: boydster
UA is not the only postulated alternative to Gravity. On an infinite plane, you could have something very similar to Gravity at the surface without the need for UA ...But that's not even all there is. There is pressure-based gravity (a la denpressure), there is a modified UA with celestial gravitation, and I'm sure there are more that I'm just forgetting at the moment
You guys need to decide which one it is. Using the scientific method should help.

Quote from: JackBlack
If that was the case it would just vanish high in the sky as the shade obscures it.
What, the shadow from the giant lampshade around the sun? It should be well lit all the way around in the southern summer. I don't think we could miss a wall thousands of miles high. Even moonlight would be enough. Or just bounce a radar or laser off it.

So we're still stuck with either a wall so high we couldn't possibly miss it or a lower hidden wall which leaks air.


Hahaaaaa - denpressure is an option?

Is a viable option?

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rabinoz

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2019, 08:00:19 PM »
So we're still stuck with either a wall so high we couldn't possibly miss it or a lower hidden wall which leaks air.
Or we could heed the words of the master, sandokhan, Flat Earth Sultan and Flat Earth Scientist and consider a dome!
The dome consists of ether and aether, that is why the usual strength of materials science course is not useful at all in analyzing this problem.

The most fervent proponent of the existence of the dome is I. Newton: he proposed two kinds of forces of gravitation. One is a force of pressure (terrestrial gravity), the other one is a rotational type of force (planetary/stellar gravity), being separated by a barrier.
This dome has certain openings, windows we can call them, through which occasionally might pass meteorites, asteroids... during a full planetary cataclysm planets such as Venus and Mercury are allowed to pass through these openings, the very cause of the geological/astronomical upheaveals recorded throughout history.
And if you need more "proof ;D" of this Dome:
There is no ice wall. These ideas (UA accelerator, 32 mile diameter Sun, ice wall) were introduced to the FES by people who had no understanding of ether theory.

What we do have is a DOME, separating the orbits of the Sun/Moon/planets/stars from our own atmosphere.


It is very easy to prove that there is no ice wall, here are the photographs taken in Antarctica by Fred Bruenjes which feature the Black Sun and no ice wall at all:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1629054#msg1629054
Need I say more? The Master hath Spoken!

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Ski

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2019, 11:50:08 AM »
It's actually postulated that the atmoplanic pressure must have been much larger in antiquity. According to aerodynamic theory, large flying dinosaurs (and insects) would have required 3.7-5bar atmoplanic pressure. It's also been proposed that Earth's earliest at atmoplane had an initial pressure of 90bar.

Did you get that from Wattsupwiththat?

I don't know what that is.

Look up aerodynamic theory dinosaurs atmospheric pressure, etc if you need a source. It is a well known dilemna.  Mouse-to-elephant curve is another related discussion that has gotten scientific interest.

It’s a site with a political agenda, namely to say that climate change isn’t something to worry about.

It’s also the only one I could quickly find saying what you did, by searching for things like “pterosaur air pressure”.

Other sites I found either suggested the mass/size ratio shouldn’t have been a problem, or there was too much we don’t know about them.

If you have a link, it would help.

Here's one such paper, for example: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/201/8/1043.short

Note that if we take the weight-wingloading charts found here: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=lt4PQPDhX5YC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=.+H.+Tennekes,+The+Simple+Science+of+Flight-from+Insects+to+Jumbo+Jets+,+M.I.T.+Press,+1996.&ots=iWE9a-PBlu&sig=Y0FiuyVqvLzY-h4FoEdQtuwvfPw#v=onepage&q&f=false

And plot the flying dinosaurs, they fall well outside the natural line (if we assume constant atmoplanic pressure)!

Some plots added here:

Bird cross-section of same plot:


"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Ski

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2019, 11:52:04 AM »
I'm asking you to take your thoughts to a conclusion... You are unwilling or unable. Why on heaven's name should I devote more time and effort than you will?

My conclusion is that the edge wall can't exist, to keep the air in it would have to be so tall that it would be easily visible from many parts of a flat earth. If there is no wall then what is keeping the air in?

What does your premature and inaccurate conclusion have to do with the question I asked?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2019, 03:41:54 PM »
I'm asking you to take your thoughts to a conclusion... You are unwilling or unable. Why on heaven's name should I devote more time and effort than you will?

My conclusion is that the edge wall can't exist, to keep the air in it would have to be so tall that it would be easily visible from many parts of a flat earth. If there is no wall then what is keeping the air in?

What does your premature and inaccurate conclusion have to do with the question I asked?

Premature? So....now maybe?

Now?

Inaccurate...well I think it's accurate unless you have anything further to add?
The Universal Accelerator is a constant farce.

Flattery will get you nowhere.

From the FAQ - "In general, we at the Flat Earth Society do not lend much credibility to photographic evidence."

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John Davis

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Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2019, 07:57:26 AM »
It's actually postulated that the atmoplanic pressure must have been much larger in antiquity. According to aerodynamic theory, large flying dinosaurs (and insects) would have required 3.7-5bar atmoplanic pressure. It's also been proposed that Earth's earliest at atmoplane had an initial pressure of 90bar.

Did you get that from Wattsupwiththat?

I don't know what that is.

Look up aerodynamic theory dinosaurs atmospheric pressure, etc if you need a source. It is a well known dilemna.  Mouse-to-elephant curve is another related discussion that has gotten scientific interest.

It’s a site with a political agenda, namely to say that climate change isn’t something to worry about.

It’s also the only one I could quickly find saying what you did, by searching for things like “pterosaur air pressure”.

Other sites I found either suggested the mass/size ratio shouldn’t have been a problem, or there was too much we don’t know about them.

If you have a link, it would help.

Here's one such paper, for example: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/201/8/1043.short

Note that if we take the weight-wingloading charts found here: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=lt4PQPDhX5YC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=.+H.+Tennekes,+The+Simple+Science+of+Flight-from+Insects+to+Jumbo+Jets+,+M.I.T.+Press,+1996.&ots=iWE9a-PBlu&sig=Y0FiuyVqvLzY-h4FoEdQtuwvfPw#v=onepage&q&f=false

And plot the flying dinosaurs, they fall well outside the natural line (if we assume constant atmoplanic pressure)!

Some plots added here:

Bird cross-section of same plot:



Paleontology will say the world was once made of gum drops and glitter if it would help them hold onto any one of their already very suspect theories.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Why doesn't all the air leak over the edge wall?
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2019, 07:45:28 AM »
"Suspect" theories?
What gives a theory credibility?