Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope

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rabinoz

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #180 on: March 13, 2019, 05:59:03 AM »
This means that the Sagnac effect remains proportional to the area and angular velocity

This means that the Sagnac effect remains proportional to the area and angular velocity

Now, there is no escape possible for you from this statement.

SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA


The most ingenious experiment performed by Professor Yeh: light from a laser is split into two separate fibers, F1 and F2 which are coiled such that light travels clockwise in F1 and counterclockwise in F2.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26797550_Self-pumped_phase-conjugate_fiber-optic_gyro
Self-pumped phase-conjugate fiber-optic gyro, I. McMichael, P. Yeh, Optics Letters 11(10):686-8 · November 1986 
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf (appendix 5.1)
NO AREA INVOLVED IN THIS SAGNAC EXPERIMENT.
Oh, you mean Appendix 5.1 where I, McMichael and Pochi Yeh says:
Quote
Standard fiber-optic gyros are Sagnac interferometers that are inherently insensitive to reciprocal phase changes and sensitive to nonreciprocal phase changes.
So we know that Standard fiber-optic gyros are Sagnac interferometers as we always said they were.

And what you claim is a "SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA" obviously has two loops clearly shown in the figure you kindly included.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, on page 3 of appendix 5.1 they also say:
Quote
The phase difference measured by the interference at detector D,

                       φ = -2(φnr2 - φnr1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc,                           (3)
Now 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 2(A1n1 + A2n2)Ω/λc and that looks like the Sagnac phase shift is proportion to (an area) x (an angular velocity)!

Please don't try to claim that is the same as your expression because:
  • That expression is for a phase conjugate fibre optic gyro and yours is a square "loop" that only works if the centre of rotation is far from the loop.

  • Your expression has no angular velocity in it and that is what a fibre optic gyro measures.
    Right from equation (2) they show that the phase shift, φ, is proportional to the rotation rate, Ω
So as stated before:
This means that the Sagnac effect remains proportional to the area and angular velocity, Ω
Now, there is no escape possible for you from this statement.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:22:15 AM by rabinoz »

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sokarul

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #181 on: March 13, 2019, 06:09:13 AM »
This is pointless. Sandokhan doesn’t believe in light with different wavelengths. He doesn’t believe in any of the experiments he posts.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #182 on: March 13, 2019, 06:33:50 AM »
And what you claim is a "SAGNAC EFFECT WITHOUT AN AREA" obviously has two loops clearly shown in the figure you kindly included.

You tried this nonsense before.

Yes, I had to actually explain the difference between an open loop and a closed loop:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76270.msg2069009#msg2069009

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76270.msg2068987#msg2068987

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76270.msg2068975#msg2068975

Professor Yeh's interferometer features NO AREA at all, just TWO SINGLE SEGMENTS OF LIGHT traveling in OPEN LOOPS consisting of different lengths, which connect the the mirrors of the interferometer: there is no area enclosed at all.



NO CLOSED LOOP, NO AREA.

L is the entire length of the fiber, Professor Yeh specifies that quite clearly.



(closed loop)



(Open-ended (non-closed) loops: a single segment from end to end)



Now 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 2(A1n1 + A2n2)Ω/λc and that looks like the Sagnac phase shift is proportion to (an area) x (an angular velocity)!

φnr1 = +2πR1L1Ω/λc = +2πL1V1/λc

φnr2 = -2πR2L2Ω/λc = -2πL2V2/λc

A fact explained quite clearly on page 2 of the article:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf (page 34 of the pdf document)

Which means that you are unable, yet again, to follow a scientific paper.

That expression is for a phase conjugate fibre optic gyro and yours is a square "loop" that only works if the centre of rotation is far from the loop.

The SAGNAC EFFECT interferometer in Professor Yeh's experiment also features DIFFERENT VELOCITIES and DIFFERENT LENGTHS.

Both arms of the interferometer ARE LOCATED AWAY FROM THE CENTER OF ROTATION, they are not symmetrical at all, since they feature DIFFERENT LENGTHS of the loops.

Your expression has no angular velocity in it

But it does.

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

V1 = R1Ω
V2 = R2Ω

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:41:56 AM by sandokhan »

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Zaphod

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #183 on: March 13, 2019, 06:49:54 AM »
All

Can we please do the "nitty gritty" of the Sagnac and Coriolis effects in a separate thread. There's no need for formulas and derivations here.

As I understand it......

Bob Knodel use a laser gyro for his test. Laser gyros employ the sagnac effect to detect rotation of the gyro. The gyro was in a fixed position wrt to the earth. The test detected a rotation.

The coriolis effect is due to viewing things from a rotating reference frame. In our case both the earth and the viewer are rotating. It is the rotating earth that is the cause of the observed coriolis effect. It affects all things in that frame, not just light. Some people, despite evidence,  still believe light travels through an ether. If the coriolis effect was due to a rotating ether wouldn't it only affect light? On the contrary we see the coriolis effect with bullets, artillery shells, storms etc etc. If the earth was stationary, a real force would have to be applied to objects with mass for them to describe the observed curved paths. How does the ether apply this force?

There you go - no formulas!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 08:26:04 AM by Zaphod »

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #184 on: March 13, 2019, 08:25:18 AM »
Laser gyros employ the sagnac effect to detect rotation of the gyro.

Laser gyros employ the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for a SAGNAC interferometer.

The test detected a rotation.

The CORIOLIS EFFECT formula detects a physical modification of the path of the light beams: for rotation you need the SAGNAC EFFECT.

It is the rotating earth that is the cause of the observed coriolis effect.

Two possible causes for the CORIOLIS EFFECT: either the Earth rotates around its own axis OR the rotation of the ether drift above the surface of the Earth.

To discern which is which, you need the SAGNAC EFFECT.

If the earth was stationary, a real force would have to be applied to objects with mass for them to describe the observed curved paths. How does the ether apply this force?

Galaev ether drift experiments:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Allais effect, the path of the rotating pendulum is drastically modified by ether waves:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg760382#msg760382


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EvolvedMantisShrimp

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #185 on: March 13, 2019, 08:42:20 AM »
Laser gyros employ the sagnac effect to detect rotation of the gyro.

Laser gyros employ the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for a SAGNAC interferometer.

The test detected a rotation.

The CORIOLIS EFFECT formula detects a physical modification of the path of the light beams: for rotation you need the SAGNAC EFFECT.

It is the rotating earth that is the cause of the observed coriolis effect.

Two possible causes for the CORIOLIS EFFECT: either the Earth rotates around its own axis OR the rotation of the ether drift above the surface of the Earth.

To discern which is which, you need the SAGNAC EFFECT.

If the earth was stationary, a real force would have to be applied to objects with mass for them to describe the observed curved paths. How does the ether apply this force?

Galaev ether drift experiments:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722791#msg1722791

Allais effect, the path of the rotating pendulum is drastically modified by ether waves:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg760382#msg760382

The vector of a hypothetical force that would replace the Coriolis effect would have to change depending on lattitude and even reverse direction south of the Equator. Can you BRIEFLY explain how your force would do so?
Nullius in Verba

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Zaphod

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #186 on: March 13, 2019, 08:56:55 AM »
Sorry Sando, but I don't "get" your statement ...

"Laser gyros employ the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for a SAGNAC interferometer"

For RLG, we are talking about the timing of counter-propgating light beams around a loop in the housing. If the gyro is rotating the 2 beams take different times to return to the origin producing a phase shift, which can then be used to derive the rotation rate. This is the sagnac effect. As I understand it this is how a laser gyro works. It's not the coriolis effect. TBH it doesn't really matter what you call it - laser gyros can measure rotation. End of.

The coriolis effect is describing the paths objects take on the earth. Mainstream science explains this with a rotating earth. You're saying the cause is a rotating ether instead.

Can you please give a summary, in your own words, of the ether drift experiment and how it moves physical objects? (maybe best in another thread).

But thanks, at least, for replying without a load of copy and paste. Much easier to follow.

Sorry, crossed with EMS. He asks a good question - answer that one first!

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #187 on: March 13, 2019, 09:17:39 AM »
The ether drift is latitude dependent:

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm

A Sagnac interferometer will detect/register/record TWO POSSIBLE PHYSICAL PHENOMENA: the CORIOLIS EFFECT and the SAGNAC EFFECT.

To obtain the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula, one has to compare the two sides/arms of the interferometer.

To obtain the SAGNAC EFFECT formula, one has to compare the TWO LOOPS of the interferometer.

For RLG, we are talking about the timing of counter-propgating light beams around a loop in the housing.

Exactly.

No loop, no Sagnac.

No loop = the Coriolis effect, a comparison of two sides

The Coriolis effect is a physical effect, a modification of the paths of the light beams.

The Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic effect, the modification of the velocity of the light beams.

This is the incredible trick perpetrated by Albert Michelson in 1925: he published the Coriolis effect formula, while claiming it was the Sagnac effect.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #188 on: March 13, 2019, 09:51:32 AM »
Now, in order to help all of you understand the situation, I will transform the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula for the Michelson-Gale experiment into the equivalent SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

Here is the Coriolis effect formula:

4ΩA/c^2

No velocity and no radius of rotation, that is, no SAGNAC EFFECT.

But A = l x h (length x width of the interferometer)



So now we have this formula:

4Ωlh/c^2 = 4vch/c^2

vc = lΩ

This is the SAGNAC EFFECT formula for a rectangle which rotates around its own geometrical center, with sides l and h.



In reality, the Michelson-Gale experiment actually measured the Sagnac fringe shift obtained for an interferometer whose center of rotation coincides with that of the Earth.

That is, a rectangular interferometer with the dimensions of 2010 ft (612.65 m) by 1113 ft (339.24 m) is simply placed with its center of rotation coinciding with the center of rotation of the Earth having a radius of 6,376.164 km.

But that is NOT the Sagnac phase shift for the original problem, where the same interferometer was placed on the surface of the Earth, at a distance of 4,200 km from the center of rotation.




We have a distance of some 4,200 km from the center of the Earth to Clearing, Illinois.

That is the radius of rotation for the SAGNAC EFFECT.

The velocity will be v = RΩ.

This is the true Sagnac effect.

The Coriolis effect, by contrast, will be 4ΩA/c^2.

Now, in order to obtain the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formula, which will feature the velocity and the radius of rotation we must proceed as follows:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2117351#msg2117351

« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:54:29 AM by sandokhan »

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Zaphod

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #189 on: March 13, 2019, 10:25:28 AM »
It was going so well up until the last post Sandy.

No formulas here please! Start a new thread for that.

What I will say though is this. You appear to have it all arse-about-face...

The coriolis effect is what we see in the real world - objects moving in curved paths, different directions in different hemispheres. This is all explained nicely using a rotating globe. Moreover the formula for the coriolis effect (by which I mean a predicting tool for the paths of moving objects) is derived using relatively trivial geometry. We start with a model, derive a formula, test it against reality. The coriolis effect has absolutely nothing to do with laser gyros or the sagnac effect.

You're fond of quoting Feynman here - if the experiments don't match the hypothesis then the hypothesis is wrong.

Now, you say the observed coriolis effect has an all-together different cause. Your hypothesis has to explain all the observed effects. Your hypothesis should have a mechanism from which you can derive a formula that can be tested against reality.

So, in simply terms, can you explain how ether drift moves objects on a round or flat earth, and how they curve in different directions on either side of the equator?

Edit

I'm awkwardly aware that I'm deviating from the topic of Bob Knodel and laser gyros here. After dinner I might start a new thread



« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:11:54 AM by Zaphod »

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #190 on: March 13, 2019, 01:21:24 PM »
You tried this nonsense before.
You mean you have tried to escape these facts by spouting a bunch of nonsense?

Like I said, if you want to preach, go to the believers only section.

As it stands, your own sources agree that FOGs measure the Sagnac effect and thus the rotation of Earth.


The Sagnac effect could hypothetically be attributed to a hypothetical ether as a medium of light, but that hypothetical aether has been firmly refuted.
That means the only option left is the rotation of Earth.


That means Bob measured the rotation of Earth.
There is no escaping that fact.

Even if you did want to pretend it is just measuring the motion of the aether around Earth, it still requires Earth to be round, otherwise everywhere would record the same drift.

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rabinoz

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #191 on: March 13, 2019, 07:38:38 PM »
I'm awkwardly aware that I'm deviating from the topic of Bob Knodel and laser gyros here. After dinner I might start a new thread
I have one in the "planning stage" entitled "On the Coriolis Acceleration and the Sagnac Delay".
The first post is intended to be just the definitions and simple derivations, then wait and see.

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Zaphod

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #192 on: March 14, 2019, 01:24:42 AM »
I have one in the "planning stage" entitled "On the Coriolis Acceleration and the Sagnac Delay".
The first post is intended to be just the definitions and simple derivations, then wait and see.

Good man, I'll leave it to you then. Maybe 2 seperate threads for the coriolis and sagnac effects?

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2019, 07:08:47 AM »
Bob Knodel is a famous (?) Youtube flat earther who tried an experiment to prove the earth was fixed - non rotating. He obtained a UD$20,000 laser ring gyroscope, an extremely accurate device, to show that the earth was not spinning. The gyroscope registered a 15 degree per hour drift.
Does this prove a rotating earth? Or like Bob Knodel said, did it measure the "heavenly energies"?


Yes, that means that Earth IS rotating..15 degrees per 1 hour  drift.....
that device you can not fooled...so,

bedtime story for the kids, about flat earth, is finally finished...

ps.
@Sandokhan, please, if you do not understand math and physics, and all i can see, that you do not understand, then please, stop copy paste stuff you can not comprehend, from the internet......
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 07:13:26 AM by Mr.Newton »

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2019, 07:35:14 AM »
Yes, that means that Earth IS rotating..15 degrees per 1 hour  drift.....

I think the community in general would be benefited to understand that the 15 degrees per hour is in a way not even true genuine "drift."
A boat who's dead in the water drifts. It could be moving one way, or the other, and at different rates depending on untold unmeasured variables like winds, water currents, perhaps magnetic fields if it's a steel boat, etc. But the point is, it could be going any which way and at different speeds at different times.
"Drift" carries sort of an "unintentional unpredictability" to it. Not that it couldn't be predicted but often isn't. It's just an annoying unknown variable that has to be ignored.

The 15 degrees per hour is, while perhaps called a Coriolis drift, is much much more than the above described kind of drift. It is an exact, precise, repeatable, constant, and highly predictable apparent motion around a specific axis of a specific rate. Which just happens to perfectly match the earth's rotation with respect to the most distant stars.

It's important to mention this because gyroscopes of various technologies are subject to real bonafide drift which can be in any direction and at any rate and can change from time to time, especially the mechanical gyros. This is real drift and cannot practically be modeled because as the gyro wears or the grease in the bearings dry out or oxide layers build up on the metal parts, the drift changes. It also changes with temperature as the physical sizes of the different metals change and cause slight imbalance. Temperature differences cause internal air currents which cause some drift.

It is very beneficial to the community to understand the differences between these two kinds of drift. We could almost call the second one a rotational rate offset or something.