Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2019, 05:52:22 PM »
So no one has yet addressed the issue that a single axis RLG or FOG as shown in stills during Behind the Curve could not possibly measure a rotation of 15 deg/hr?

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rabinoz

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #121 on: March 10, 2019, 06:27:18 PM »
So no one has yet addressed the issue that a single axis RLG or FOG as shown in stills during Behind the Curve could not possibly measure a rotation of 15 deg/hr?
Apparently not but that's Bob Knodel's problem.

If "level" a single axis RLG should read (15 deg/hr) x sin(lat) but I'd let Bob Knodel's supporters bring that up.
Bob Knodel has raised the sin(lat) in relation to a mechanical gyro he's building.
But Bob Knodel, long time supporter of the flat earth claimed it read 15 deg/hr and none of his supporters questioned that.
All that was done was to try to shield it from "cosmic energies" but if the RLG is measuring inertial effects no shielding can change it.

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #122 on: March 10, 2019, 06:30:07 PM »
I think there's a clip where Bob admits to another flerfer the rotation results and says if they release the results its not going to be very good for FE. There's also a clip where Jism is left stunned that his lights and holes experiment confirms curvature.
 
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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #123 on: March 10, 2019, 06:31:09 PM »
So no one has yet addressed the issue that a single axis RLG or FOG as shown in stills during Behind the Curve could not possibly measure a rotation of 15 deg/hr?

Not sure if it was a single axis FOG or not. In some other video Bob mentions that he previously mentioned the make and model of it. In some old globe busters vid. But those have all been marked private on the YT channel. So unclear.
We've never really been a single entity.  We're more like a collection of rabid honey badgers stuffed into a 3 piece suit.  It occasionally bears the semblance of a man

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #124 on: March 10, 2019, 10:25:34 PM »
I thought Bob said that the 15 degrees per hour was after correcting for latitude.

But, if you tipped the gyro up to point its sensitive axis toward the north pole, wouldn't it read the 15 degrees per hour regardless of your location?

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2019, 12:49:54 AM »
So no one has yet addressed the issue that a single axis RLG or FOG as shown in stills during Behind the Curve could not possibly measure a rotation of 15 deg/hr?
While it can be used to either directly measure with the appropriate angle or indirectly measure with math, reading some of the conversation they are using a 3-axis gyro.

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2019, 01:08:23 AM »
From the discussion Micro posted, there's this:

"I have decided to exchange the DSP-1760 3-axis for an IMU-1750.
This IMU-1750 does not have the mags that are on the IMU-1775"

DSP-1760 specs: https://www.kvh.com/Commercial-and-OEM/Gyros-and-Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/Fiber-Optic-Gyros/DSP-1760.aspx

IMU-150 Specs: https://www.kvh.com/Military-and-Government/Gyros-and-Inertial-Systems-and-Compasses/Gyros-and-IMUs-and-INS/IMUs/1750-IMU.aspx
We've never really been a single entity.  We're more like a collection of rabid honey badgers stuffed into a 3 piece suit.  It occasionally bears the semblance of a man

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2019, 03:16:00 AM »
Can someone call/write to Bob Knodel and let him know that the mystery has been solved?

BK recorded the CORIOLIS EFFECT of the ether drift rotating above the surface of the Earth.

Here is the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formula/frequency for a SQUARE RING LASER GYROSCOPE:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2153966#msg2153966

4L(v1 + v2)/c2

For the same interferometer, the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula is:

4Aω/c2

Here is the comparison between the SAGNAC EFFECT frequency and the CORIOLIS EFFECT frequency for the ring laser gyroscope located at Gran Sasso, Italy (GINGERino experiment):

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2154991#msg2154991

The SAGNAC EFFECT frequency is larger by a factor of 2,616,666.666 times than the CORIOLIS EFFECT frequency.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:18:13 AM by sandokhan »

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2019, 03:30:17 AM »
One man's aether is another man's ektoplasm,
Turkish joke. A prisoner goes to the jail's library to borrow a book. The librarian says: "We don't have this book, but we have its author"

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rabinoz

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2019, 04:26:22 AM »
Can someone call/write to Bob Knodel and let him know that the mystery has been solved?
Contact him yourself! You'd have much more in common with Bob Knodel that anyone else here.

Quote from: sandokhan
BK recorded the CORIOLIS EFFECT of the ether drift rotating above the surface of the Earth.
Here is the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formula/frequency for a SQUARE RING LASER GYROSCOPE:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2153966#msg2153966
4L(v1 + v2)/c2

For the same interferometer, the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula is:
4Aω/c2

Here is the comparison between the SAGNAC EFFECT frequency and the CORIOLIS EFFECT frequency for the ring laser gyroscope located at Gran Sasso, Italy (GINGERino experiment):
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2154991#msg2154991
The SAGNAC EFFECT frequency is larger by a factor of 2,616,666.666 times than the CORIOLIS EFFECT frequency.
In the meantime you could brush of Bob Knodel's ideas on aether, Airy's failure and Einstein etc, etc in this:

Ring Laser Gyro, Sagnac, Aether & the Motionless Earth GLOBEBUSTERS by God's Flat Earth

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #130 on: March 11, 2019, 08:23:21 AM »
I thought Bob said that the 15 degrees per hour was after correcting for latitude.

But, if you tipped the gyro up to point its sensitive axis toward the north pole, wouldn't it read the 15 degrees per hour regardless of your location?

What is the rationale for "correcting for latitude" on a flat earth?

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2019, 10:04:26 AM »
I thought Bob said that the 15 degrees per hour was after correcting for latitude.

But, if you tipped the gyro up to point its sensitive axis toward the north pole, wouldn't it read the 15 degrees per hour regardless of your location?

What is the rationale for "correcting for latitude" on a flat earth?

Seems the Aether rotates different directions on different parts of the earth.

Perhaps Sandokahn can clarify, but from what I've been able to gather, the Aether rotates around the north pole one way inside the equator and the other way outside the equator.
And presumably doesn't rotate at all on the equator.

Which maybe explains why the stars rotate one way south of the equator and the other way north thereof.

However theoretically, this would mean the stars don't move in the sky over the equator. so that's a problem.

What I don't know is if the aether doesn't rotate at the equator, or if it's rotation is just on the horizontal axis.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2019, 10:26:30 AM »
And presumably doesn't rotate at all on the equator.

But there is a Sagnac delay, right on the line of the equator:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260796097_Light_Transmission_and_the_Sagnac_Effect_on_the_Rotating_Earth

"Kelly [25]  also  noted that  measurements  using  the GPS  reveal that  a light signal takes  414 nanoseconds  longer  to  circumnavigate  the  Earth  eastward  at  the  equator  than  in the westward direction around the same path. This is as predicted by GPS equations (11) and (12)."


Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2019, 10:50:12 AM »
And presumably doesn't rotate at all on the equator.

But there is a Sagnac delay, right on the line of the equator:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260796097_Light_Transmission_and_the_Sagnac_Effect_on_the_Rotating_Earth

"Kelly [25]  also  noted that  measurements  using  the GPS  reveal that  a light signal takes  414 nanoseconds  longer  to  circumnavigate  the  Earth  eastward  at  the  equator  than  in the westward direction around the same path. This is as predicted by GPS equations (11) and (12)."

Very interesting! I'll have to check into that some more. I was wondering if light traveled difference speeds east-west.

But to clarify, do you believe the ether is rotating at the equator? Or would Bob's gyro have read zero at the equator, regardless of orientation?

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2019, 10:57:38 AM »
The Sagnac effect is caused by ether drift.

Someone has to communicate these facts to BK, otherwise he won't understand the readings of the RLG.

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2019, 11:01:31 AM »
The Sagnac effect is caused by ether drift.
Fascinating!
Quote
Someone has to communicate these facts to BK, otherwise he won't understand the readings of the RLG.
Agreed.

But in your opinion, of Bob had taken his RLG to the equator, would it have read any significant rate of rotation of pointed straight to local up in its sensitive axis?
(Assuming it's a single axis unit.)
And would it have given near 15deg/hr at any orientation on the equator? What orientation would give the strongest reading of rotation rate?

Thanks!

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #136 on: March 11, 2019, 11:12:12 AM »
According to Professor K.U. Schreiber (Technical University of Munich): "At the equator, however, the light beam wouldn't even notice that the Earth is turning."

However, the experiment carried out right on the line of the equator says otherwise.

So, it depends on the equipment used.

Here is what pilots have to say:

http://www.theairlinepilots.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=902

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #137 on: March 11, 2019, 11:17:32 AM »
According to Professor K.U. Schreiber (Technical University of Munich): "At the equator, however, the light beam wouldn't even notice that the Earth is turning."

However, the experiment carried out right on the line of the equator says otherwise.

So, it depends on the equipment used.

Here is what pilots have to say:

http://www.theairlinepilots.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=902

Interesting.

But that link is all globe earth based.

In your opinion, would a perfect mechanical gyro give the same readings in all locations and orientations on earth as would a perfect LRG?

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2019, 11:40:15 AM »
By definition, a mechanical gyro's axis of rotation is moved by the CORIOLIS FORCE.

By Michelson's definition, the time phase difference of a RLG is caused by the SAGNAC EFFECT.

And yet physicists are using the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula to describe the SAGNAC EFFECT:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/338054/measuring-earth-rotation-rate-about-its-axis-with-gyroscopes

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2019, 11:54:55 AM »
By definition, a mechanical gyro's axis of rotation is moved by the CORIOLIS FORCE.

By Michelson's definition, the time phase difference of a RLG is caused by the SAGNAC EFFECT.

And yet physicists are using the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula to describe the SAGNAC EFFECT:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/338054/measuring-earth-rotation-rate-about-its-axis-with-gyroscopes

Fascinating.

I perceive that you have no opinion on whether the LRG would act the same as a spinning mass gyro in all locations on earth and all orientations.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2019, 12:40:31 PM »
They will act the same if the same force is acting on them: the CORIOLIS FORCE.

The Coriolis effect is a physical effect on the light beams.

The Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic force on the velocity of the beams.

Two very different phenomena, yet physicists are using the same formula to describe both situations, even though, by definition, the SAGNAC EFFECT requires two loops to be formed, while for the CORIOLIS EFFECT no loops are required.

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #141 on: March 11, 2019, 12:42:42 PM »
That's understandable, but with all of your vast knowledge, would you expect a gyro of the two types to read the same thing if in the same location and orientation?


Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #142 on: March 11, 2019, 01:06:54 PM »
Can someone call/write to Bob Knodel and let him know that the mystery has been solved?
Pretty sure he already knows it has been solved. He has measured the rotation of Earth, confirming that it rotates, and that he is not level with the axis of rotation, i.e. Earth is round.

Here is the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formula/frequency for a SQUARE RING LASER GYROSCOPE:
You repeating the same nonsense won't magically make it true.
We have been over this countless times.
Your formula and derivation is nonsense.
The correct formula for the Sagnac effect for a rotating ring interferometer is 4Aω/c2

If you wish to claim otherwise, show the correct derivation, starting from the basics. That means starting from the time required for light to propagate around a stationary loop.


The Sagnac effect and the Coriolis effect is the same thing for a rotating interferometer.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #143 on: March 11, 2019, 02:12:04 PM »
This is the Coriolis effect formula:

dt = 4ωA/c^2

This is an accepted fact of science.

PROOF

THIS IS AN IOP ARTICLE, one of the most comprehensive papers on the Sagnac effect ever published.





Here is reference #27:



http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Michelson-Gale/Silberstein.pdf

The formula derived by Dr. Silberstein, peer reviewed in the IOP article, and described by the author as the "effect of the Coriolis forces" is this:

dt = 4ωA/c^2

Here is a direct derivation of the same formula using only the Coriolis force:

https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/pram/087/05/0071

The derivation has NO LOOPS at all.

Just a comparison of two sides.


Here is the derivation of my formula, using TWO LOOPS:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2117351#msg2117351

Here is the final formula:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

My formula is confirmed at the highest possible scientific level, having been published in the best OPTICS journal in the world, Journal of Optics Letters, and it is used by the US NAVAL RESEARCH OFFICE, Physics Division.

A second reference which confirms my global/generalized Sagnac effect formula.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a206219.pdf

Studies of phase-conjugate optical devices concepts

US OF NAVAL RESEARCH, Physics Division

Dr. P. Yeh
PhD, Caltech, Nonlinear Optics
Principal Scientist of the Optics Department at Rockwell International Science Center
Professor, UCSB
"Engineer of the Year," at Rockwell Science Center
Leonardo da Vinci Award in 1985
Fellow of the Optical Society of America, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers



page 152 of the pdf document, section Recent Advances in Photorefractive Nonlinear Optics page 4

The MPPC acts like a normal mirror and Sagnac interferometry is obtained.



Phase-Conjugate Multimode Fiber Gyro

Published in the Journal of Optics Letters, vol. 12, page 1023, 1987

page 69 of the pdf document, page 1 of the article


A second confirmation of the fact that my formula is correct.

Here is the first confirmation:



Self-pumped phase-conjugate fiber-optic gyro, I. McMichael, P. Yeh, Optics Letters 11(10):686-8 · November 1986 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf (appendix 5.1)


Exactly the formula obtained by Professor Yeh:

φ = -2(φ2 - φ1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 4π(V1L1 + V2L2)/λc

Since Δφ = 2πc/λ x Δt, Δt = 2(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/c2 = 2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

The very same formula obtained for a Sagnac interferometer which features two different lengths and two different velocities.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf

ANNUAL TECHNICAL REPORT PREPARED FOR THE US OF NAVAL RESEARCH.

Page 18 of the pdf document, Section 3.0 Progress:

Our first objective was to demonstrate that the phase-conjugate fiberoptic gyro (PCFOG) described in Section 2.3 is sensitive to rotation. This phase shift plays an important role in the detection of the Sagnac phase shift due to rotation.

Page 38 of the pdf document, page 6 of Appendix 3.1


it does demonstrate the measurement of the Sagnac phase shift Eq. (3)


HERE IS EQUATION (3) OF THE PAPER, PAGE 3 OF APPENDIX 3.1:

φ = -2(φ2 - φ1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 4π(V1L1 + V2L2)/λc

Since Δφ = 2πc/λ x Δt, Δt = 2(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/c2 = 2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2




The Coriolis effect is a physical effect upon the light beams: it is proportional to the area of the interferometer. It is a comparison of two sides.

The Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic effect upon the velocities of the light beams: it is proportional to the radius of rotation. It is a comparison of two loops.

Two different phenomena require two very different formulas.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:14:07 PM by sandokhan »

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #144 on: March 11, 2019, 02:59:17 PM »
This is the Coriolis effect formula:
dt = 4ωA/c^2
This is an accepted fact of science.
Which is the exact same thing as the Sagnac effect formula.
This is an accepted fact of science, as shown by all the scientists you quote while claiming they are confusing the 2.

A derivation showing that that is the correct formula has been shown to you several times, and you have been completely unable to find any error with it.
The only derivation you have that shows anything different is fundamentally flawed and shows you don't even understand what you are trying to measure or how long it takes for light to propagate around a loop.

Again, your fundamentally formula indicates a Sagnac effect should be observed for a square loop moving with linear motion, even though that is fundamentally impossible due to the symmetry of the system meaning neither path should take longer.

Like I said, if you want to do the derivation yourself, start with the basics. Show how long it should take for light to propagate around a stationary loop.
Once you have done that you can begin introducing motion into the loop and quickly see how your derivation is so fundamentally flawed.

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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #145 on: March 11, 2019, 03:12:18 PM »
Let's put your word to the test.

Here is the derivation of my formula, using TWO LOOPS:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2117351#msg2117351

Here is the final formula:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

My formula is confirmed at the highest possible scientific level, having been published in the best OPTICS journal in the world, Journal of Optics Letters, and it is used by the US NAVAL RESEARCH OFFICE, Physics Division.

A second reference which confirms my global/generalized Sagnac effect formula.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a206219.pdf

Studies of phase-conjugate optical devices concepts

US OF NAVAL RESEARCH, Physics Division

Dr. P. Yeh
PhD, Caltech, Nonlinear Optics
Principal Scientist of the Optics Department at Rockwell International Science Center
Professor, UCSB
"Engineer of the Year," at Rockwell Science Center
Leonardo da Vinci Award in 1985
Fellow of the Optical Society of America, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers



page 152 of the pdf document, section Recent Advances in Photorefractive Nonlinear Optics page 4

The MPPC acts like a normal mirror and Sagnac interferometry is obtained.



Phase-Conjugate Multimode Fiber Gyro

Published in the Journal of Optics Letters, vol. 12, page 1023, 1987

page 69 of the pdf document, page 1 of the article


A second confirmation of the fact that my formula is correct.

Here is the first confirmation:



Self-pumped phase-conjugate fiber-optic gyro, I. McMichael, P. Yeh, Optics Letters 11(10):686-8 · November 1986 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf (appendix 5.1)


Exactly the formula obtained by Professor Yeh:

φ = -2(φ2 - φ1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 4π(V1L1 + V2L2)/λc

Since Δφ = 2πc/λ x Δt, Δt = 2(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/c2 = 2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

The very same formula obtained for a Sagnac interferometer which features two different lengths and two different velocities.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a170203.pdf

ANNUAL TECHNICAL REPORT PREPARED FOR THE US OF NAVAL RESEARCH.

Page 18 of the pdf document, Section 3.0 Progress:

Our first objective was to demonstrate that the phase-conjugate fiberoptic gyro (PCFOG) described in Section 2.3 is sensitive to rotation. This phase shift plays an important role in the detection of the Sagnac phase shift due to rotation.

Page 38 of the pdf document, page 6 of Appendix 3.1


it does demonstrate the measurement of the Sagnac phase shift Eq. (3)


HERE IS EQUATION (3) OF THE PAPER, PAGE 3 OF APPENDIX 3.1:

φ = -2(φ2 - φ1) = 4π(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/λc = 4π(V1L1 + V2L2)/λc

Since Δφ = 2πc/λ x Δt, Δt = 2(R1L1 + R2L2)Ω/c2 = 2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

CORRECT SAGNAC FORMULA:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2




The Coriolis effect is a physical effect upon the light beams: it is proportional to the area of the interferometer. It is a comparison of two sides.

The Sagnac effect is an electromagnetic effect upon the velocities of the light beams: it is proportional to the radius of rotation. It is a comparison of two loops.

Two different phenomena require two very different formulas.


My SAGNAC EFFECT formula proven and experimentally fully established at the highest possible level of science.


As for the Coriolis effect formula here it is:

dt = 4ωA/c^2

PROOF

THIS IS AN IOP ARTICLE, one of the most comprehensive papers on the Sagnac effect ever published.





Here is reference #27:



http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Michelson-Gale/Silberstein.pdf

The formula derived by Dr. Silberstein, peer reviewed in the IOP article, and described by the author as the "effect of the Coriolis forces" is this:

dt = 4ωA/c^2

Here is a direct derivation of the same formula using only the Coriolis force:

https://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/pram/087/05/0071

The derivation has NO LOOPS at all.

Just a comparison of two sides.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:15:43 PM by sandokhan »

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rabinoz

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #146 on: March 11, 2019, 04:26:57 PM »
And presumably doesn't rotate at all on the equator.

But there is a Sagnac delay, right on the line of the equator:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260796097_Light_Transmission_and_the_Sagnac_Effect_on_the_Rotating_Earth

"Kelly [25]  also  noted that  measurements  using  the GPS  reveal that  a light signal takes  414 nanoseconds  longer  to  circumnavigate  the  Earth  eastward  at  the  equator  than  in the westward direction around the same path. This is as predicted by GPS equations (11) and (12)."
The Sagnac delay is proportional the dot product of the area of the Sagnac loop and axis of rotation.
          Sagnac effect and pure geometry by Angelo Tartaglia and Matteo Luca Ruggier
          THE SAGNAC  EFFECT IN THE GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM by Neil Ashby
          MathsParges: Sagnac and Fizeau

The area loop around the equator (a vector) is parallel to the axis of rotation - the axis of earth's rotation so this dot product is maximised.

But for a loop flat on the surface at the equator, its area is normal to the axis of rotation so the dot product is zero.

Try your expression for the Sagnac delay of a loop rotating about an outside point on those two cases: 4L(v1 + v2)/c2.

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #147 on: March 11, 2019, 04:37:53 PM »
Let's put your word to the test.
Fine, lets put my word to the test.
Show me what is wrong with MY derivation, the one I provided. You are so far completely unable to.
Show the time required for light to propagate around a stationary loop.
Explain how you get a shift with uniform linear motion, where the entire loop moves as one.


Don't just copy a paste a bunch of stuff you don't understand and don't understand how it varies from what we are discussing.
Don't just link to already refuted derivation.
Don't even bother bringing up studies/papers which utilise phase conjugate mirrors as that has no relevance to a interferometer without them.

The formula derived by Dr. Silberstein, peer reviewed in the IOP article, and described by the author as the "effect of the Coriolis forces" is this:
And you seem to just read what you want and ignore the rest.
You completely ignore the abstract where it says:
Quote
When certain restrictions on the rotational velocity are imposed, the Sagnac effect can be attributed to the difference in the time dilation (or phase change) of material particle wave functions in the scalar (or correspondingly vector) gravitational potential of the inertial forces in a rotating reference system for counterpropagating waves.

This paper isn't saying this is the Coriolis effect and the Sagnac effect is something different.
It is saying the Sagnac effect can be explained as the Coriolis effect, i.e. they are the same (and also goes into detail with correct vs incorrect explanations based upon that).

So this paper agreeing that the formula for the Sagnac effect is based upon the area enclosed by the loop and angular velocity, instead of the length and linear velocity just further refutes your claims.

So go ahead, put my word to the test.
Show what is wrong with my derivation, or provide your own starting from the basics of how long it takes light to travel around a stationary loop, or see if you can find a valid reference which for a simple rotating ring interferometer with normal mirrors, so no FOCs or PCMs, claims the Sagnac effect isn't based upon the area and angular velocity.

Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #148 on: March 11, 2019, 08:06:11 PM »
Here's the abstract from the "highest level of science" paper Sando just cited:

Quote
Abstract

Different explanations for the Sagnac effect are discussed. It is shown that this effect is a consequence of the relativistic law of velocity composition and that it can also be explained adequately within the framework of general relativity. When certain restrictions on the rotational velocity are imposed, the Sagnac effect can be attributed to the difference in the time dilation (or phase change) of material particle wave functions in the scalar (or correspondingly vector) gravitational potential of the inertial forces in a rotating reference system for counterpropagating waves. It is also shown that all the nonrelativistic interpretations of the Sagnac effect, which are unfortunately sometimes found in scientific papers, monographs and textbooks, are wrong in principle, even though the results they yield are accurate up to relativistic corrections in some special cases.


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sandokhan

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Re: Bob Knodel and the laser ring gyroscope
« Reply #149 on: March 11, 2019, 10:07:30 PM »
Here's the abstract from the "highest level of science" paper Sando just cited:

Quote
Abstract

Different explanations for the Sagnac effect are discussed. It is shown that this effect is a consequence of the relativistic law of velocity composition and that it can also be explained adequately within the framework of general relativity. When certain restrictions on the rotational velocity are imposed, the Sagnac effect can be attributed to the difference in the time dilation (or phase change) of material particle wave functions in the scalar (or correspondingly vector) gravitational potential of the inertial forces in a rotating reference system for counterpropagating waves. It is also shown that all the nonrelativistic interpretations of the Sagnac effect, which are unfortunately sometimes found in scientific papers, monographs and textbooks, are wrong in principle, even though the results they yield are accurate up to relativistic corrections in some special cases.

G. Malykin's treatise has over 300 references, and yet, it missed one of the most important ones, a paper published by Dr. Silberstein in 1922.

In 1922, Dr. Silberstein published a second paper on the subject, where he generalizes the nature of the rays arriving from the collimator:

http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Historical%20Papers-Mechanics%20/%20Electrodynamics/Download/2645

This paper explains the issue raised by Malykin, but evidently missed by him.

Moreover, it is Malykin who makes a tremendous error in comparing the Sagnac effect with the effect predicted by special relativity.

The Sagnac effect is far larger than the effect forecast by relativity theory.

STR has no possible function in explaining the Sagnac effect.

The Sagnac effect is a non-relativistic effect.

COMPARISON OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT WITH SPECIAL RELATIVITY, starts on page 7, calculations/formulas on page 8

http://www.naturalphilosophy.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly-TimeandtheSpeedofLight.pdf

page 8

Because many investigators claim that the
Sagnac effect is made explicable by using the
Theory of Special Relativity, a comparison of
that theory with the actual test results is given
below. It will be shown that the effects
calculated under these two theories are of very
different orders of magnitude, and that
therefore the Special Theory is of no value in
trying to explain the effect.

COMPARISON OF THE SAGNAC EFFECT WITH STR

STR stipulates that the time t' recorded by an observer moving at velocity v is slower than the time to recorded by a stationary observer, according to:

to = t'γ

where γ = (1 - v2/c2)-1/2 = 1 + v2/2c2 + O(v/c)4...

to = t'(1 + v2/2c2)


dtR = (to - t')/to = v2/(v2 + 2c2)

dtR = relativity time ratio



Now, to - t' = 2πr/c - 2πr/(c + v) = 2πrv/(c + v)c

dt' = to - t' = tov/(c + v)


dtS = (to - t')/to = v/(v + c)


dtS = Sagnac ratio


dtS/dtR = (2c2 + v2)/v(v + c)

When v is small as compared to c, as is the case in all practical experiments, this ratio
reduces to 2c/v.


Thus the Sagnac effect is far larger than any
purely Relativistic effect. For example,
considering the data in the Pogany test (8 ),
where the rim of the disc was moving with a
velocity of 25 m/s, the ratio dtS/dtR is about
1.5 x 10^7. Any attempt to explain the Sagnac
as a Relativistic effect is thus useless, as it is
smaller by a factor of 10^7.


Referring back to equation (I), consider a disc
of radius one kilometre. In this case a fringe
shift of one fringe is achieved with a velocity
at the perimeter of the disc of 0.013m/s. This
is an extremely low velocity, being less than
lm per minute. In this case the Sagnac effect
would be 50 billion times larger than the
calculated effect under the Relativity Theory.


Post (1967) shows that the two (Sagnac and STR) are of very different orders of magnitude. He says that the dilation factor to be applied under SR is “indistinguishable with presently available equipment” and “is still one order smaller than the Doppler correction, which occurs when observing fringe shifts” in the Sagnac tests. He also points out that the Doppler effect “is v/c times smaller than the effect one wants to observe." Here Post states that the effect forecast by SR, for the time dilation aboard a moving object, is far smaller than the effect to be observed in a Sagnac test.