Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?

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Tom Bishop

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Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« on: February 09, 2019, 08:52:19 PM »
It is commonly asserted that scripture depicts an earth that is flat and motionless. While the number of references which suggest a flat earth are numerous and difficult to dispute, the number of passages which suggest a motionless earth are relatively few. A thorough assessment is provided. It is found that the motionless references are primarily sourced from round earth geocentrism, which creatively interprets select passages and ignores context to come up with a stationary and spherical earth.

There are three main passages which geocentrists champion and interpret for the stationary nature of the earth. The term “will not be moved” in those passages is found to be in the context of “will not totter” rather than in the context of “stationary” or “motionless”.

Flat Earth Geocentrists provide further pieces of evidence in the form of mentions of the foundations and pillars of the earth. It is found that when the foundation and pillars are cross-referenced with other passages and references on meaning, that they do not exist in the forms alleged. The context of the terms do allow motion.

Indeed, there are several passages which suggest and indicate that the earth is in motion.

I have broken this analysis into eleven sections:

NASB
Immovable, Motionless, and Stationary
Will Not Be Moved
Will Not Totter
The Foundation
Pillars of the Earth
Second Day of Creation
Earth over a Void
The Earth Stands
Never to Rise Again
The Way of All of the Earth

Resource: The scriptural basis for a geocentric cosmology
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 01:49:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 08:53:05 PM »
NASB

For the purposes of this assessment we will mainly be using the New American Standard Bible. The NASB is touted by scholarship as the most literal. From the NASB Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible

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"The New American Standard Bible is considered by some sources as the most literally translated of major 20th-century English Bible translations."

http://www.preceptministries.ca/blog/esv-or-nasb/

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“The NASB has always been popular with serious Bible students because the translators tried to “render the grammar and terminology” of the original languages into English. And they worked at being as literal as possible. English Bible students have always wanted to know exactly what the text said so they could be the ones to determine for themselves the meaning. The NASB meets that need.”
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:44:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2019, 08:56:18 PM »
Immovable, Motionless and Stationary

Interestingly, despite the fame and the insistence, the words "motionless," "stationary," and "immovable," appear nowhere in the bible in regards to the earth.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com searches across over 30 different versions/translations of the bible.

Motionless - 4 instances, unrelated to earth - https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Motionless

Stationary - 1 instance, unrelated to earth - https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Stationary

Immovable - 7 instances, unrelated to earth - https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Immovable
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:34:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2019, 08:57:44 PM »
Will Not Be Moved

Geocentrists promote the following four passages as direct quotes for the stationary nature of the earth:

Quote
Psalm 93:1 NASB

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Psalm 96:10 NASB

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

1 Chronicles 16:30 NASB

Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved

Psalm 104:5 NASB

He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.

All four of these quotes seem to be saying the same thing about its establishment, the last one the most specific.

The NASB does not use the word "immovable" for the earth anywhere in its pages. There are three unrelated references for "immovable" in the NASB: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=immovable&qs_version=NASB

Nor could any other related references be found for "not moved," "not moving," "still," "stationary," or "motionless."

The ancients certainly knew the words for "motionless" and "immovable," as they use them in other areas of the bible, but it is not used for the earth.

The earth being established so that it will not totter, does not equal motionless, stationary or immovable. Those were words attributed and popularized by a geocentrist somewhere. The earth being fixed in establishment so that it will not move from it (which seems to be clarified as totter) also does not directly equal 'is not moving' or 'can not move'. Especially when we look up what the foundation is.

When assessing these passages one sees that it does not appear to literally say that at all. We also see that the ancients certainly could have specifically said motionless if they wanted to. There was language available to specifically declare the earth as motionless or still. Those words appear in other areas, of other things. In the case of "still," a great many times. They could have said it, but did not.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:38:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2019, 09:05:18 PM »
Will Not Totter

Recall above that are were four quotes like Psalm 96:10 in NASB:

Quote
Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

There are four quotes like this. Three which said "will not be moved". One of them was more specific than the others, and which said that it was established so that it would not totter forever and ever. These are the key stationary and immovable passages championed by the geocentrists: "Will not be moved."

When we go biblehub.com, a lexicon website, and look up one of the "will not be moved" passages, we find the following:

Psalm 96:10

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/96-10.htm



"Will not be moved" appears to be clarified as "will not totter"

Clicking on the link to the immediate right of "it will not be moved" we find:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4131.htm

Quote
Strong's Concordance

mot: to totter, shake, slip

...

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

a prim. root
Definition
to totter, shake, slip

NASB Translation
bring down (1), fall (1), falter (1), gives way (1), immovable* (1), moved (8 ), shake (1), shaken (11), shaken violently (1), slip (4), slipped (2), slips (1), staggering (1), totter (3), tottered (1), totters (1).

...

Brown-Driver-Briggs

verb totter, shake, slip (usually in poetry) (Late Hebrew id., derived species; Aramaic , מוּט; Arabic (medial י) remove, retire; deviate from right course; repel, push, thrust; Ethiopic turn; Assyrian ma‰û is dwindle, diminish, grow weak DlHWB 405; > denominative from מוט pole, bar DlProl.184 GerberVerb. denominative 195 f., compare Buhl);

...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, exceedingly, falling down

A primitive root; to waver; by implication, to slip, shake, fall -- be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall(-ing down), be (re-)moved, be ready, shake, slide, slip.


The other two "will not be moved" quotes appear as the same:

Psalm 93:1

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/93-1.htm



1 Chronicles 16:30

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_chronicles/16-30.htm



The links to the immediate right of "will not be moved" take us to the same 'tottering' page: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4131.htm

We find that “will not be moved” is clarified as “will not totter”.

Of the above, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to that word appears to be most interesting:

Quote
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, exceedingly, falling down

A primitive root; to waver; by implication, to slip, shake, fall -- be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall(-ing down), be (re-)moved, be ready, shake, slide, slip.

From the Strong's Concordance Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong%27s_Concordance

Quote
The purpose of Strong's Concordance is not to provide content or commentary about the Bible, but to provide an index to the Bible. This allows the reader to find words where they appear in the Bible. This index allows a student of the Bible to re-find a phrase or passage previously studied. It also lets the reader directly compare how the same word may be used elsewhere in the Bible. In this way Strong provides an independent check against translations, and offers an opportunity for greater, and more technically accurate understanding of text.

Essentially, Strong’s Concordance is a useful index which gives further clarification to the translations by giving context for how it is used elsewhere in the bible.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:07:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2019, 09:09:48 PM »
The Foundation

Some passages in the bible make reference to a foundation of the earth, or the earth’s foundation. It has been asked and asserted that if the earth has a foundation then it surely must be immobile.

The most explicit description of the foundation is found in Corinthians:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A11&version=NASB

Quote
1 Corinthians 3:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

It says directly above that the foundation is Jesus Christ.

Further, Samuel tells us that the heavens also have foundations:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+22%3A8&version=NASB

Quote
2 Samuel 22:8

Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry.

Isaiah tells us:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A13&version=NASB

Quote
Isaiah 48:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

“Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.

Isaiah tells us that God founded the earth with His left hand, and the heavens are spread with His right hand, and that when He calls to them (presumably His hands), they stand together. This reads as verification of what the foundation is. The foundation is not any plane or object. The foundation is God, or the hand of God. The heavens are also on a foundation, which provides further clarification to its nature.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:07:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2019, 09:15:00 PM »
The Pillars

Some passages also make reference to the “pillars” of the earth. It has been asked that, if the earth has pillars, how could the earth be in motion?

In the Book of Enoch, its author Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah, is taken on a tour of the earth by the angels called the Watchers, and sees the pillars of the earth and the heavens. If Enoch is to be believed, the pillars of the earth are not solid entities. The pillars are made of wind. Enoch recounts:

https://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-18/

Quote
3. I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven.

This concept of non-solid pillars is consistent with how pillars are portrayed throughout the bible.

In the bible there are two types of pillars: Man’s pillars and God’s pillars. There is a difference. Man’s pillars are always made of solid substances such as stone, wood, or rock. God is above utilizing the materials of man for his pillars, however. God’s pillars are always made of cloud, fire, or nothing. God’s pillars are always in motion through space, move up and down, and have a purpose of moving or lifting. They are not static pillars like those of man.

Here is a link to the search term pillar from the NASB with 140 results. Readers may feel free to read about them for their own selves: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=pillar&qs_version=NASB

All quotes below are from NASB:

Man's Pillars

God's Instructions to Moses from Exodus 27:17

Quote
All the pillars around the court shall be furnished with silver bands with their hooks of silver and their sockets of bronze.

Genesis 28:18

Quote
So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top

Exodus 34:13

Quote
But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim

Judges 16:25

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It so happened when they were in high spirits, that they said, “Call for Samson, that he may amuse us.” So they called for Samson from the prison, and he entertained them. And they made him stand between the pillars.

Judges 16:26

Quote
Then Samson said to the boy who was holding his hand, “Let me feel the pillars on which the house rests, that I may lean against them.”

1 Kings 7:2

Quote
He built the house of the forest of Lebanon; its length was 100 cubits and its width 50 cubits and its height 30 cubits, on four rows of cedar pillars with cedar beams on the pillars.

Man’s pillars are solid and static.

God’s Pillars

Exodus 13:21

Quote
The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.

Exodus 14:24

Quote
At the morning watch, the Lord looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud and brought the army of the Egyptians into confusion.

Exodus 14:19

Quote
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.

Exodus 33:9

Quote
Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the Lord would speak with Moses.

Numbers 12:5

Quote
Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam.

We can see the nature of God's pillars.

Both heaven and the earth are on pillars:

Job 26:11

Quote
The pillars of heaven tremble And are amazed at His rebuke

1 Samuel 2:8

Quote
For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.

Now, would God be using man’s pillars for the above, or God’s pillars? Clearly, these type of pillars for the earth  would have to be be God’s pillars. Not man’s pillars. God’s pillars are not solid, and move around through space for a purpose. The purpose of God’s pillars is not to be static like stone. God always purposes His pillars to move, lift, or to do something.

In light of the above, man's pillars seem out of the question. The question should be what God's pillars are doing.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:36:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2019, 09:19:01 PM »
The Second Day of Creation

Perhaps the most interesting part of the bible on this subject is how the earth's creation is portrayed. The following is the account of Genesis from the New American Standard Bible.

https://www.biblica.com/bible/nasb/genesis/1/

Quote
The Creation

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.

Summarily:

    Day 1: God creates the heavens and the earth. The earth is water and devoid of land.
    Day 2: God divides the waters vertically and creates the expanse.
    Day 3: God says "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"

Reading this literally, from the most literal version of the bible, God creates something called the expanse below the earth that we are on, not above it.

On the second day of creation God created the expanse below the earth that we are on. What is "the expanse"? Usually it has been interpreted, under the Round Earth mindset, to mean the firmament and the expanse of the heavens (as they believe in a large universe). But this does not make sense. On the first day of creation the heavens were already created. On day one of creation God created the heavens, and then on day two of creation God created the heavens again?

Others share in this confusion:

https://ichthys.com/mail-Waters-Above-Firmament-Genesis-Gap.htm

Quote
understanding Genesis 1:6-8 as being an ex nihilo creation of space which was not there before does not jibe with the overall context of the seven days (the heavens are now created on day two while the earth existed before day one), makes no logical sense (for it requires light and the earth to exist outside of space), and, much more importantly, is completely inconsistent with Genesis 1:1 which tells us that God had already previously created the heavens (mentioned first) and the earth instantaneously:

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    Genesis 1:1 NIV

How can this verse be consistent with earth existing before day one but with the heavens not created until day two?

Even creationscience.com says that there are multiple interpretations for this section of Genesis on what is meant by "the expanse," and what is meant by heaven and heavens: http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ36.html

The definition of an expanse is the distance to which something can grow or expand, or a vast open surface.

We read a definition at https://www.thefreedictionary.com/expanse

Quote
ex·panse  (ĭk-spăns′)
n.
1. A wide and open extent, as of surface, land, or sky.
2.
a. Expansion.
b. The distance or amount of expansion.

expanse (ɪkˈspæns)
n
1. an uninterrupted surface of something that spreads or extends, esp over a wide area; stretch: an expanse of water.
2. expansion or extension

Day Two of Creation depicts the Creator as dividing the primordial waters vertically to create the expanse, and that this expanse is apparently beneath the earth that we are on. Could the Universal Accelerator have been created on the Second Day?

In the FE vs Geocentrism debate, at one point, Robert Sungenis quotes a scholar who says (paraphrased) “God created something on the Second Day. We just don’t know what it is.”

Source (remove space): https://yo utu.be/AqbiwtRKrtg?t=3340
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:43:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2019, 09:22:33 PM »
Earth over a Void

In Job we read the the earth is suspended over a void, rather than resting on anything in particular.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+26%3A7&version=NASB

Quote
Job 26:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing

The above appears to contradict the popular assertions that the earth is resting on any kind of foundational plane or on solid pillars.

The earth is over a void. Further, the earth is being hung. What do you do when you hang things? You lift them up. The above word "hangs" is a verb, an action word, something that is happening. If you hang something on nothing you will have to continue to hang it on nothing. Hanging also implies being pulled in the opposite direction from "gravity".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:40:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 09:23:53 PM »
The Earth Stands

The bible contains several curious messages on how the earth stands.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+119%3A90&version=NASB

Psalm 119:90 tells us:

Quote
Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+48%3A13&version=NASB

Isaiah 48:13 says:

Quote
Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

How can the earth or the heavens "stand"? One one hand stand could mean like "standing water". On the other hand, stand could mean all sorts of things. To find interpretation we can go to the bible to learn what it may mean:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14%3A4&version=NASB

Romans 14:4

Quote
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+10:12&version=NASB

1 Corinthians 10:12

Quote
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

The opposite of stand appears to be fall. Colloquially, the opposite of fall is rise. Are the heavens and the earth rising?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:44:38 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 09:28:23 PM »
Never to Rise Again

We find an extract from God's Impending Judgement of the Earth:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+24&version=NASB

Quote
The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.

The foundations of the earth, which we had read were fixtures that keep the earth from tottering, or otherwise represent the hands of God, are shaken by God in His judgment of man's rebellion, completely destroying the earth.

Earth's rebellion weighs it down. The earth will fall, never to rise again. Again? Again appears to say that the earth is normally rising, or at least that it has risen before. That sentence could have been written without the "again," but it was not. Falling, rising, both contradict the supposed rule for the immovability of the earth. All other versions of this passage, selectable through the top drop-down menu on that page, have the same "never to rise again" statement.

The words around the "rising" phrase—of the earth shaking, tottering, splitting—are all direct and literal indications of the earth's motion; and so "fall" and "rise" must also be indications of motion.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:43:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 09:31:29 PM »
The Way of All of the Earth

Let us read Joshua's Farewell Address from the NASB:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+23&version=NASB

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Joshua’s Farewell Address

Now it came about after many days, when the Lord had given rest to Israel from all their enemies on every side, and Joshua was old, advanced in years, that Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders and their heads and their judges and their officers, and said to them, “I am old, advanced in years. And you have seen all that the Lord your God has done to all these nations because of you, for the Lord your God is He who has been fighting for you. See, I have apportioned to you these nations which remain as an inheritance for your tribes, with all the nations which I have cut off, from the Jordan even to the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun..."

"Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed."

Joshua is a major figure in the book of Exodus, and an associate of Moses. Joshua was appointed by God to succeed Moses as leader of the Israelites, and has a book in scripture. The Book of Joshua is a book of the Bible. In this passage Joshua is very old and is giving his farewell address. Joshua tells us that today he will be going the way of all the earth. For Joshua, presumably that way is up, not down, and definitely not around the sun. A statement which, when taken literally, tells us that the earth is going the way of somewhere; that the earth is rising upwards.

The phrase is found elsewhere in the bible of another good and righteous figure who was going to die. King David also says it in 1 Kings 2:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings+2&version=NASB

Quote
David’s Charge to Solomon

As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, “I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man. Keep the charge of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn, so that the Lord may carry out His promise which He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons are careful of their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

One may find it interesting that a group of people who believed that they were going to heaven when they died, and who wrote the bible through God, would say that they were "going the way of all of the earth" when they died. The bible says that language is a gift to man by God (Tower of Babel), which was a gift given to a period closer to Joshua than to today.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:41:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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wise

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2019, 10:09:40 PM »
Quote
Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

Psalm 96:10 New International Version (NIV)

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns.”
    The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved;
    he will judge the peoples with equity.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+96%3A10&version=NIV

Psalm 96:10 American Standard Version (ASV)

Say among the nations, Jehovah reigneth:
The world also is established that it cannot be moved:
He will judge the peoples with equity.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+96%3A10&version=ASV


    Psalm 96:10 (NIV)

    Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.

https://www.bible.com/tr/search/bible?q=psalm%2096:10&category=bible&version_id=111

If we examine the expression technique in verse, so we can see that the emphasis and meaning in the sentence overlap.

The world's being firmly established and  cannot be moved is an evidence of its judging the people with equity. Otherwise The rules will also vary in a non-fixed order.

hence the meaning of the verse in terms of justice is reinforced by the fact that the earth's being stationary. to argue otherwise would be unfair to literary art in verse.

I don't say it definitely has not the other meaning. There are some versions show it. If I deny it so it means I deny the bible if it has the other meaning. I agree it. But I just say, taking its meaning a stationary is stronger than taking its being stationary in the future.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 10:56:50 PM by wise »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 08:03:13 PM »
I do agree that it says and means "will not move," but in what context? Geocentrists proclaim that this means stationary, but we can see that this is not the case. Stationary is not stated, despite the language being available to describe something as stationary. "Shaking" and "tottering" is also a form of movement. A heavy and powerful train can be stabilized so it does not shake or totter from its tracks, limiting this form of movement.

Recall Psalm 104:5, which said that it was established so that it will not totter:

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Psalm 104:5 NASB

He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.

This was the outlier of the four. This verse says that the earth is established so that it "will not totter," correct? It just so happens that the same Hebrew word for totter in this verse is the same word for "moved" in the other three verses.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/104-5.htm



Totter is Strong's #4131

This is the same word is used for "moved" in Psalms 96-10:

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/96-10.htm



We see Strong's #4131 again.

The other two are Psalm 93:1, and 1 Chronicles 16:30, both of which use the same "totter" word for "moved". The same Hebrew "totter" word is used for these verses with whatever translation of the Bible we use.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:58:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2019, 03:02:44 PM »
I have added a resource to the footnote of the OP: The scriptural basis for a geocentric cosmology. Despite being a hostile source, this page seems to have an organized collection of the biblical quotes that are given in support of a geocentric earth, which we have probably all seen before.

It is seen that the concept of a stationary earth is mainly based on the interpretation of "will not be moved," which is Strong's H4131, and which we have seen is used elsewhere in the bible as "totter." We see that further support for the stationary earth is given by references to the foundations and pillars, which we went over above, and did not seem to exist as suggested.

At least two other lexicon/concordence indexes give the same totter description for Strong's H4131, the word for "moved":

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h4131



https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/lexica/gesenius/index.cfm

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About Gesenius's Lexicon

This lexicon was originally written by Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Gesenius (1786-1842) in the German language. Gesenius's influence as a master of Hebrew is widespread. The editors of the Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon refer to him as the father of modern Hebrew Lexicography. Gesenius first published a work on Hebrew grammar in 1817 before turning his efforts on lexicography.

Brown–Driver–Briggs

http://kingjamesbibledictionary.com/StrongsNo/H4131/fall

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Brown Driver
Biggs Definition:   

1. to totter, shake, slip
a. (Qal) to totter, shake, slip
b. (Niphal) to be shaken, be moved, be overthrown
c. (Hiphil) to dislodge, let fall, drop
d. (Hithpael) to be greatly shaken

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown%E2%80%93Driver%E2%80%93Briggs

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A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, more commonly known as Brown–Driver–Briggs or BDB (from the name of its three authors) is a standard reference for Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic,[1] first published in 1906. It is organized by (Hebrew) alphabetical order of three letter roots. It was based on the Hebrew-German lexicon of Wilhelm Gesenius, translated by Edward Robinson. The chief editor was Francis Brown, with the co-operation of Samuel Rolles Driver and Charles Augustus Briggs, hence the name Brown–Driver–Briggs.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:42:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 03:52:52 PM »
I notice that the Kings James Version of the 1 Chronicles 16:30, one of the verses in question, has the "firmly established" part translated as "shall be stable". A reference to stability ties in directly to the "totter" word.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1ch/16/30/t_concr_354030



also shall be stable takes us to the lexicon entry for kwun:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3559&t=KJV

We see that "be firm" and "be stable" are the first two concordance translations in the Outline of Biblical Usage section:



that it not be moved takes us to the tottering descriptions that we saw before:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H4131&t=KJV

"Totter," "Shake," and "Slip" appear as the first three concordance translations:



We see that this passage can be translated as "the world also shall be stable, that it be not tottered"

One might suppose that tottering would be a problem with a Flat Earth that is being pushed up by winds, and so this message that mechanisms were made against that to keep it stable should not be surprising to us.

Other versions of the passage in question have the same word for established/stable, kuwn, which is Strong's H3559:

Psalm 96:10 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/96/10/t_conc_574010
Psalm 93:1 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/93/1/t_conc_571001

Next, let us look at the first three parallel passages of 1 Chronicles 16:30 from bible.knowing-jesus.com, which shows different versions of the verses in parallel:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Chronicles/16/30

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1 Chronicles 16:30

New American Standard Bible

"Tremble before Him, all the earth; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved."

King James Version

"Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."

Holman Bible

"tremble before Him, all the earth. The world is firmly established; it cannot be shaken."

See the bolded. We find that the translations of the Bible are translating the phrase in different ways. The phrases appear to have been translated interchangeably and in accordance with the concordance definitions.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 05:27:29 PM by Tom Bishop »