Brexit

  • 456 Replies
  • 6998 Views
*

Bullwinkle

  • Flat Earth Curator
  • 15504
  • "Umm, WTF ???"
Re: Brexit
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2019, 07:47:44 PM »

I doubt Trump and his minions understood the subtlety.


Lucky thing we have you looking out for us.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

*

Jane

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 10846
  • Official Pokemon Trainer of the FES
Re: Brexit
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2019, 01:44:47 AM »
I give up.

When will people wake up to the fact that it is Putin that wants to break up Europe, and stop former soviet satellite countries like Ukraine getting into the EU and NATO.

Brexit is Putin's campaign to weaken the EU,
Trust us, we know, there's been plenty of investigation into were the money for the Leave campaign came from. The people being paid are just the ones in power. They're awake to that fact, they just don't care.
Once you get to the point where a referendum that was only advisory, never legally binding and as such they never gave any actual plan for what they would do, gets touted as unavoidable and a must-happen even after it came out that the winning side (after a small enough majority that Farage said, if he'd lost by that margin, he'd be fighting for another referendum) broke electoral law, and adamantly refusing to even see what kind of exit the public wants and pushing for the absolute worst case people-will-literally-die scenario regardless, you get the feeling it's not about helping the country any more.

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2019, 11:32:01 PM »
I give up.

When will people wake up to the fact that it is Putin that wants to break up Europe, and stop former soviet satellite countries like Ukraine getting into the EU and NATO.

Brexit is Putin's campaign to weaken the EU,
Trust us, we know, there's been plenty of investigation into were the money for the Leave campaign came from. The people being paid are just the ones in power. They're awake to that fact, they just don't care.
Once you get to the point where a referendum that was only advisory, never legally binding and as such they never gave any actual plan for what they would do, gets touted as unavoidable and a must-happen even after it came out that the winning side (after a small enough majority that Farage said, if he'd lost by that margin, he'd be fighting for another referendum) broke electoral law, and adamantly refusing to even see what kind of exit the public wants and pushing for the absolute worst case people-will-literally-die scenario regardless, you get the feeling it's not about helping the country any more.

Nigel Frogface leads a march to London to protest in favour of leave,  and promptly leaves.   LOL
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Pezevenk

  • 12422
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Brexit
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2019, 03:51:57 AM »
I give up.

When will people wake up to the fact that it is Putin that wants to break up Europe, and stop former soviet satellite countries like Ukraine getting into the EU and NATO.

Brexit is Putin's campaign to weaken the EU, just like the "Stop Hillary at all costs"  was designed to stop the US fomenting the colour revolutions,  which ultimately would cause the Russian people to overthrow the corrupt Oligarchy that Putin had created.

I doubt Trump and his minions understood the subtlety.
Lol Putin isn't behind everything. It's not untrue that it is in his interests to break up the EU, but Brexit is not caused by him and neither are the rest of the anti-EU movements. The recent politics of the EU and the German hegemony are the causes of countries getting pissed off at the EU. In the case of Brexit, it was also racism, because people were very scared of the refugees. You're blowing the influence of Russia completely out of proportion.
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Who wants to be a firefly and who wants to be a blue whale?
-Sceptimatic

Please do not jizz to win an argument.
-Crutonius

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
-Inty (again)

*

Jane

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 10846
  • Official Pokemon Trainer of the FES
Re: Brexit
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2019, 03:59:24 AM »
Lol Putin isn't behind everything. It's not untrue that it is in his interests to break up the EU, but Brexit is not caused by him and neither are the rest of the anti-EU movements. The recent politics of the EU and the German hegemony are the causes of countries getting pissed off at the EU. In the case of Brexit, it was also racism, because people were very scared of the refugees. You're blowing the influence of Russia completely out of proportion.
Probably down to both, to an extent. The anti-EU, britain-first attitudes are old hat, as is good old fashioned racism, but major figures in the leave campaign did end up with mysteriously large amounts of funding from Russian sources, and have a few suspicious friends. The attitudes were there, but Putin did take full advantage of them. Though at the end of the day a decent part of the blame does have to come right back to the UK.

*

Pezevenk

  • 12422
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Brexit
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2019, 04:03:10 AM »
Lol Putin isn't behind everything. It's not untrue that it is in his interests to break up the EU, but Brexit is not caused by him and neither are the rest of the anti-EU movements. The recent politics of the EU and the German hegemony are the causes of countries getting pissed off at the EU. In the case of Brexit, it was also racism, because people were very scared of the refugees. You're blowing the influence of Russia completely out of proportion.
Probably down to both, to an extent. The anti-EU, britain-first attitudes are old hat, as is good old fashioned racism, but major figures in the leave campaign did end up with mysteriously large amounts of funding from Russian sources, and have a few suspicious friends. The attitudes were there, but Putin did take full advantage of them. Though at the end of the day a decent part of the blame does have to come right back to the UK.
I mean, it's not like Russia doesn't try to aid these groups, but there are also many other countries that try to pressure for the opposite so...
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Who wants to be a firefly and who wants to be a blue whale?
-Sceptimatic

Please do not jizz to win an argument.
-Crutonius

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
-Inty (again)

Re: Brexit
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2019, 07:12:01 AM »
I give up.

When will people wake up to the fact that it is Putin that wants to break up Europe, and stop former soviet satellite countries like Ukraine getting into the EU and NATO.

Brexit is Putin's campaign to weaken the EU, just like the "Stop Hillary at all costs"  was designed to stop the US fomenting the colour revolutions,  which ultimately would cause the Russian people to overthrow the corrupt Oligarchy that Putin had created.

I doubt Trump and his minions understood the subtlety.
Lol Putin isn't behind everything. It's not untrue that it is in his interests to break up the EU, but Brexit is not caused by him and neither are the rest of the anti-EU movements. The recent politics of the EU and the German hegemony are the causes of countries getting pissed off at the EU. In the case of Brexit, it was also racism, because people were very scared of the refugees. You're blowing the influence of Russia completely out of proportion.
Got to agree.   The "it's Putin wot did it" ignores a much more complicated issue and overplays Putin's powers and abilities.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: brotherhood of the dome
Should I examine the all shits?

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2019, 05:32:47 AM »
I give up.

When will people wake up to the fact that it is Putin that wants to break up Europe, and stop former soviet satellite countries like Ukraine getting into the EU and NATO.

Brexit is Putin's campaign to weaken the EU, just like the "Stop Hillary at all costs"  was designed to stop the US fomenting the colour revolutions,  which ultimately would cause the Russian people to overthrow the corrupt Oligarchy that Putin had created.

I doubt Trump and his minions understood the subtlety.
Lol Putin isn't behind everything. It's not untrue that it is in his interests to break up the EU, but Brexit is not caused by him and neither are the rest of the anti-EU movements. The recent politics of the EU and the German hegemony are the causes of countries getting pissed off at the EU. In the case of Brexit, it was also racism, because people were very scared of the refugees. You're blowing the influence of Russia completely out of proportion.
Got to agree.   The "it's Putin wot did it" ignores a much more complicated issue and overplays Putin's powers and abilities.

Sorry,  Putin did in fact do it,  and he's still doing it.  The Russians have weaponized social media and the west has yet to catch on and figure out how to combat their game.

They know full well the triggers that will spark outrage and reaction from both sides of any issue.  They know their target audience, and how to manipulate the psyche of the stalwart Brits.

Don't agree.... well, consider the following,  and remember Cambridge Analytica had facebook data on hundreds of millions of users.

With just 10 likes, a computer model fundamentally knows you better than a colleague, according to additional research published by Kosinski in 2015. With 70 likes, it knows you better than a friend or roommate; with 150 likes, better than a family member. And with 300 likes, Big Data knows you better than your spouse.



I should add, that there were advance warnings that Russia was heading in this direction.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2017/01/18/russias-radical-new-strategy-for-information-warfare/?utm_term=.3599f3691928

At the infoforum in 2016,  Andrey Krutskikh claimed they had developed the social media equivalent of nuclear weapons.  In retrospect he was right.

Quoting Krutskikh:-
Quote
According to notes of Krutskikh’s speech, he told his Russian audience: “You think we are living in 2016. No, we are living in 1948. And do you know why? Because in 1949, the Soviet Union had its first atomic bomb test. And if until that moment, the Soviet Union was trying to reach agreement with [President Harry] Truman to ban nuclear weapons, and the Americans were not taking us seriously, in 1949 everything changed and they started talking to us on an equal footing.”

Krutskikh continued, “I’m warning you: We are at the verge of having ‘something’ in the information arena, which will allow us to talk to the Americans as equals.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:46:27 AM by JerkFace »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Bullwinkle

  • Flat Earth Curator
  • 15504
  • "Umm, WTF ???"
Re: Brexit
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2019, 07:49:07 AM »

With just 10 likes, a computer model fundamentally knows you better than a colleague, according to additional research published by Kosinski in 2015. With 70 likes, it knows you better than a friend or roommate; with 150 likes, better than a family member. And with 300 likes, Big Data knows you better than your spouse.



That sounds foreboding until you realize it's just someone's opinion.
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

Re: Brexit
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2019, 09:34:02 AM »
Sorry,  Putin did in fact do it
Yeah, right.  Putin went back in time and caused decades of ambivalence and, from large sections of the population, downright dislike and distrust of the EU.   Including pretty much every member of the ruling Conservative party. That was all him.

Him and his goons have definitely influenced things, but so has a thousand other factors.

Quote
At the infoforum in 2016,  Andrey Krutskikh claimed they had developed the social media equivalent of nuclear weapons.  In retrospect he was right.
More like the social media equivalent of car bombs.  Nasty, but not an existential threat.

Part of the trick Putin as played is getting us to overestimate his powers.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: brotherhood of the dome
Should I examine the all shits?

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2019, 09:45:12 AM »
Sorry,  Putin did in fact do it
Yeah, right.  Putin went back in time and caused decades of ambivalence and, from large sections of the population, downright dislike and distrust of the EU.   Including pretty much every member of the ruling Conservative party. That was all him.

Him and his goons have definitely influenced things, but so has a thousand other factors.

Quote
At the infoforum in 2016,  Andrey Krutskikh claimed they had developed the social media equivalent of nuclear weapons.  In retrospect he was right.
More like the social media equivalent of car bombs.  Nasty, but not an existential threat.

Part of the trick Putin as played is getting us to overestimate his powers.

You underestimate the power of social media to shape the narrative and propagate cleverly constructed misinformation.   

But you are correct in the sense that the distrust and dislike of the EU was already there.  But was it sufficient to throw the country into chaos.  I doubt it. The French and English have been at loggerheads for hundreds of years, and I won't mention the Germans if you don't...  for god's sake don't mention the war,  I did once and I think I got away with it.

The trolls are manipulating and playing it perfectly.   Some might say you might not even notice you've been had. 


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8782
  • V is for Viceroy
Re: Brexit
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2019, 09:48:50 AM »
If Brexit is to England as Trump is to the US then what the crab says rings true. Putin did not invent these divisions. He does try to exploit them. But this division in America exists independently of Putin. I'm assuming the same holds true in England.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Jura-Glenlivet II

  • 1543
  • Will I still be perfect tomorrow?
Re: Brexit
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2019, 10:04:28 AM »

Damn right, bloody johnny foreigner, pulled up the drawbridge, forgot we'd let the damn French in through the tunnel!
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8782
  • V is for Viceroy
Re: Brexit
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2019, 10:12:31 AM »
Yep. You guys definitely need a wall in addition to your moat. And you need to make France pay for it.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

BatteryStaple

  • 1132
  • The Perfumed Seneschal
Re: Brexit
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2019, 10:30:51 AM »
The Tories in England are worse than the Republicans in America.

*

Bullwinkle

  • Flat Earth Curator
  • 15504
  • "Umm, WTF ???"
Re: Brexit
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »
The Tories in England are worse than the Republicans in America.

Do you mean they're Democrats?
RE can never win this argument.
FE can't be disproved.

*

Pezevenk

  • 12422
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Brexit
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2019, 11:59:57 AM »
I like how Putin is basically an omnipotent being at this point and nothing bad would ever happen if he wasn't involved. Putin did not do Brexit. Putin did not elect Trump. He had some part in influencing people's opinions, which may have been somewhat significant. He is not all controlling. Every other superpower does what he's doing.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 12:02:36 PM by Pezevenk »
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Who wants to be a firefly and who wants to be a blue whale?
-Sceptimatic

Please do not jizz to win an argument.
-Crutonius

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
-Inty (again)

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2019, 08:36:36 PM »
I like how Putin is basically an omnipotent being at this point and nothing bad would ever happen if he wasn't involved. Putin did not do Brexit. Putin did not elect Trump. He had some part in influencing people's opinions, which may have been somewhat significant. He is not all controlling. Every other superpower does what he's doing.

Bzzzt  wrong.   He swung the Brexit vote towards leave,  and he got Trump elected.   The evidence is already well proven.
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8782
  • V is for Viceroy
Re: Brexit
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2019, 09:31:57 PM »
There is evidence that he made an effort, yes.  However the extent of which he was effective I'm a little skeptical of.  Without him would things have turned out differently?  I don't know.  I do know that in the US if I could pick one thing about democracy to fix there's many things I'd pick before foreign interference.  Gerrymandering, the electoral college, Citizens United, voter suppression, first past the post voting, to me these are bigger issues.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2019, 02:00:46 AM »
There is evidence that he made an effort, yes.  However the extent of which he was effective I'm a little skeptical of.  Without him would things have turned out differently?  I don't know.  I do know that in the US if I could pick one thing about democracy to fix there's many things I'd pick before foreign interference.  Gerrymandering, the electoral college, Citizens United, voter suppression, first past the post voting, to me these are bigger issues.

Start here ...  After you've caught up with that, we can look at the Indictments of Russian Military intelligence and the IRA operation.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/01/how-russia-helped-to-swing-the-election-for-trump

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Jane

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 10846
  • Official Pokemon Trainer of the FES
Re: Brexit
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2019, 03:13:20 AM »
He swung the Brexit vote towards leave,  and he got Trump elected.   
He was an influence. If you're going to focus entirely on blaming Putin you're just going to miss the problems you already have. UKIP existed before Putin got involved, racism existed long before he was even born, blindly voting for a party independent of candidate has been a systemic problem for a while. Whether he gave a last little push, that's possible, they were both close calls. But you can't blame him exclusively, plenty of other people got started with the pushing first.
No one's saying Russia didn't get involved, but if they had total control of a candidate they'd just put Vladimir Putin in a trucker hat in the White House. They work with what's already there. Trying to absolve the UK or US of partial responsibility is just going to let it happen again without foreign interference.

Re: Brexit
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2019, 03:45:14 AM »
Bzzzt  wrong.   He swung the Brexit vote towards leave,  and he got Trump elected.   The evidence is already well proven.
It's "well proven" is it?    I mean, you haven't actually presented any hard data here, and I'm not sure any could ever exist as causality is never going to be impossible to prove one way or the other in something as complicated as an election.

The fact is the UK has had a on-off relationship with with the EU since we joined.  Three quarters of our press has been rabidly anti-europe since we joined.  Anyone of a certain age in the UK will remember this Sun front page from 1990



You don't think decade after decade of this shit has an effect far greater than Putin's pissing around on social media?  The Daily Mail and The Express have been even worse.  And in the "broadsheets" you have the Telegraph pumping anti-EU stories out into the old boys and gals who make up the Conservative party membership and are 90% opposed to EU membership and always have been.

Seriously, your boy Murdoch has been far more influential on British politics and than Putin could ever dream of.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: brotherhood of the dome
Should I examine the all shits?

*

JerkFace

  • 9461
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Brexit
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2019, 04:05:45 AM »
It's "well proven" is it?    I mean, you haven't actually presented any hard data here,

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

In case you don't care to read the gory details..

We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US
presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process,
denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess
Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We
have high confidence in these judgments.


back to Brexit...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-isnt-there-greater-outrage-about-russian-involvement-in-brexit


Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Jura-Glenlivet II

  • 1543
  • Will I still be perfect tomorrow?
Re: Brexit
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2019, 05:21:04 AM »

It’s both/all the above, but when the electoral commission says there were financial irregularities, questions about the sources of Arron Banks donations and collusion between the out groups, I for one, are for using this to get a fairer re-vote on something I think the country would like to change its mind on.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

*

BatteryStaple

  • 1132
  • The Perfumed Seneschal
Re: Brexit
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2019, 06:02:48 AM »
Was the referendum legally binding?

*

Jane

  • Flat Earth Researcher
  • 10846
  • Official Pokemon Trainer of the FES
Re: Brexit
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2019, 06:12:03 AM »
Was the referendum legally binding?
Shouldn't have been. It was meant to only be advisory, gauge public opinion, that was how they got away without actually presenting any plan.

*

BatteryStaple

  • 1132
  • The Perfumed Seneschal
Re: Brexit
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2019, 06:14:37 AM »
Was the referendum legally binding?
Shouldn't have been. It was meant to only be advisory, gauge public opinion, that was how they got away without actually presenting any plan.
Then why are people actually going through with this shitshow?

*

Son of Orospu

  • Jura's b*tch and proud of it!
  • Planar Moderator
  • 37789
  • I have artificial intelligence
Re: Brexit
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2019, 08:32:00 AM »
Listen here, JerkFace!  I actually agree with you a little, this time.  Putin did what he could to both bring on Brexit, and elect Trump, as well as numerous other things that you or I will never know. 

That being said, the US does this all of the time, and so does the UK, China, and many others.  I am not excusing any of their actions, just agreeing that all world powers want elected people in other countries who are 'allies' and they do things, whether it is moral or not, to get their people elected. 

Re: Brexit
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2019, 09:48:35 AM »
It's "well proven" is it?    I mean, you haven't actually presented any hard data here,

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
Well, as long as the CIA says it, then it must be true.  Right?

Quote
In case you don't care to read the gory details..
No, I didn't.  I'm debating Brexit here, which is what the thread is about.

Quote
We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US
presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process,
denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess
Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We
have high confidence in these judgments.

OK, that's their assessment that Putin "ordered an influence campaign" - I don't think that is controversial - he's definitely messing with Western politics, just like we mess with theirs.  The debate is how much effect, if any, it had.  Again, have you any hard data to support your assertion that "Putin won Brexit and the American presidential campaign"?

Quote
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-isnt-there-greater-outrage-about-russian-involvement-in-brexit
Great, and opinion piece from a journalist.  Nothing wrong with it, but it does not provide any data on how influential Putin's messing was on Brexit.  Personally, compared to other factors, like our rabidly anti-EU press, I think it was marginal.

Murdoch (another foreign actor who doesn't have our country's best interests in mind) has more influence on anglo-politics than Putin can dream of. 
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: brotherhood of the dome
Should I examine the all shits?

*

Pezevenk

  • 12422
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Brexit
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2019, 11:42:59 AM »
So far JerkFace has posted an article where one academic said that maybe Putin had a decisive influence on the US elections, a statement by the dni which says that he tried to, and an opinion piece that says there was collusion for Brexit, all the while ignoring that Russia is not the only one doing this, that there were far more important influences coming from inside the country, and painting Putin as some omnipotent being. The whole "Putin did it" meme is used so that people can explain away their incompetence and shortcomings and to ignore much more serious underlying tensions, and pin their failures on an external factor. It's not that Russia has no influence on these things. But there are sooo many much more significant factors at play.
It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Who wants to be a firefly and who wants to be a blue whale?
-Sceptimatic

Please do not jizz to win an argument.
-Crutonius

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from.
-Inty (again)