Your thoughts on Elon musk?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1320 on: December 18, 2023, 07:02:54 AM »
I do not accept that there have been legitimate studies about hate speech on Twitter. What I've seen are hyperventilating "journalists" tweeting that there is more hate speech, and writing endless articles about how unsafe Twitter is now. I don't know what you are calling a study, have there been scientific studies regarding hate speech on Twitter since Elon Musk bought it?

I don't know if you are referring to me as "right-wing" or just people in general. I assure you I am not "right-wing", but I understand that you think anyone who disagrees with you on some issues is down a right-wing rabbit hole.

Anyway, I do not claim that nothing changed. I think many things improved, and some things still need work. I am very pleased that some people were allowed back on the platform, especially the women who were banned for discussing women's rights. I also do not think it's the end of the world that Trump and Alex Jones were allowed back on Twitter. Twitter was a cesspit of insanity before Musk bought it, and it still is. Anywhere the loons gather will be like that!

Be brave! What hate speech do you think I agree with?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1321 on: December 18, 2023, 12:34:32 PM »
It is objectively true that racism, homophobia and antisemitism has gone up drastically after Musk took over.

He's personally unbanned many of these people himself, and ordered hundreds of others banned for hate speech to be reinstated. This isn't a mystery or hard to understand, if you unban racists, they are going to say more racist things.

I guess you probably simply don't accept or believe any of the many studies showing the increase in hate speech since he took over. 

Of course, if you agree with some of the hate speech then I suppose you wouldn't view it as an increase.

So weird seeing the right wing suddenly defending Twitter after proclaiming it to be all woke and full of the gay agenda before Musk took over, and also claiming nothing changed.
Has it, or has it just become more public and more likely to be detected using automated tools?
And is the growth comparable to normal growth from new users, or is it significantly higher?

Any such attempts to study it are going to inherently problematic due to the method of identifying hateful tweets. There are far to many to go through manually, and automatic selection will be inherently problematic, especially with racist double standards like being perfectly fine with one race using a word but not another race.
Previously on twitter, this automatic detection resulted in people using that word being banned, regardless of if they were using it in a hateful way.
And once Musk took over, it seemed like that was not the case any more, with lots of people (including both black people and white people) using that word. And looking at an article, it appears that most were not being done in a hateful way; yet useless automated analysis for measuring hate speech would see the word and flag it as such.

This would also mean those previously being hateful, who had any idea about such automated tools, would likely have tried to use other ways of expressing their hateful sentiment which wouldn't have been detected by such automated analysis, yet after Musk took over they could go back to being more direct, which then would have been detected.

So unless a human went through every tweet, or multiple truly random samplings of tweets, the analysis is almost useless.

And focusing on the hate speech is only one aspect. What about speech which wasn't hate speech which was banned as hate speech?

When you have significant censorship and moderation, it isn't only actual hate speech that is banned. It will also typically include things that those in control very strongly disagree with, and automated tools getting things wrong.
Of course, some people would claim that is hate speech, even though it isn't, unless they want to complete destroy the meaning of hate speech and have things calling out the KKK or ISIS or murderers to be deemed hate speech.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1322 on: December 19, 2023, 10:10:18 AM »
Be brave! What hate speech do you think I agree with?

You post Tucker Carlson videos and think Alex Jones and Trump being back on Twitter is a good thing because you agree with their views on gays and transgender.

We have very different ideas on what defines hate speech. You think I hate women, I think you hate transgendered people. We are never going to agree because I hear Tucker's words and see hate speech, and you see someone you agree with.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1323 on: December 19, 2023, 10:59:45 AM »
What views do they have on gays that you think I agree with?

If they say that humans cannot change sex, then I agree with them on that. If they say that healthy children should not be given a powerful drug that shuts down their endocrine system, then I agree with that. If they say that men who decide they're women after they've been arrested for rape should not be housed in a female prison, then I agree with that. There are lots of things they may say that I might agree with. If one of them said lasagna is delicious, I would agree.

Me saying I don't think it's a big deal that they're back on Twitter is not the same as saying it's a good thing. I just am not bothered by it. I don't follow Trump or Alex Jones. I don't see their tweets. It's very easy for me to avoid seeing accts that I am not interested in. I don't even have to block them. I don't have the urge to control what other people read on the internet. If they're not posting things that are illegal, then I just don't know why it bothers anyone. If they're saying dangerous things, it's better to see it than let it fester in some dark corner of the internet. Isn't that what the media says every time some weirdo shoots up a school?

Me thinking you hate women has nothing to do with "hate speech". You thinking I hate trans people has nothing to do with "hate speech".  If you can't define a concept, what value does it have? I don't have to define it, because I think it is a stupid concept to begin with.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1324 on: December 19, 2023, 12:16:35 PM »
non protected speech for inciting violence.






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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1325 on: December 19, 2023, 01:56:10 PM »
We have very different ideas on what defines hate speech. You think I hate women, I think you hate transgendered people. We are never going to agree because I hear Tucker's words and see hate speech, and you see someone you agree with.
Yes, that is quite obvious.
You seem to think speech that you don't like about specific groups is hate speech, just because we don't agree with you.
Refusing to call a trans person by the gender they identify as, is not hate speech.
If they say trans people should get help to accept who they are, that is not hate speech.
If they say all trans people should die, that is hate speech.
If they directly call for people to harm trans people, that is hate speech.

The big issue is that because there are several issues that the "liberals"/left cannot rationally justify they need to shut down any opposition to that idea as hate speech.

Alex Jones has said a lot of crap, but I am yet to hear him call for violence (although I could have just not heard it yet).
The closest I have found is a tenuous connection where someone believed the crap he said and decided to go assault a pizzeria.

But if we are going to call that inciting violence, I guess all of BLM needs to be shut down as hate speech and police officers, and inciting violence; due to the police officers killed in revenge and all the riots.
That everyone who promotes [insert religion here] should likewise be shut down due to [insert religion here]'s hatred of [insert group here] and calling for violence against this group, and for the violence as evidenced by all the terrorist attacks committed in the name of [insert religion here] including those people wouldn't want to label as terrorist attacks and instead try to label as just murder or massacres.

Either you need an actual call to violence, or anything tangentially related should be deemed to be calling for violence as well.

Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1326 on: December 19, 2023, 02:32:05 PM »
1.  "belief in gend-bending"
i agree with jack - being impolite and disrespectful is different from being hateful.


2.  "jones is peaceful"
jones talks about demons and "tehy're coming for you" to the mentally derranged.
for him to say he has no responsibility to his followers is nonsense since he knows he's crafted his delivery method and rhetoric to his audience.
as judged in a court of law - he is responsible.

take for example, if people are doing very bad things in the name of Jesus and the Bible, you an atheist says the leaders of said church are also to blame, not just the individual.
becuase when it starts happening en mass, it is no longer an indidivual lone wolf but a group-think-mandella effect that started from somewhere.

and i HOPE that libtards and fox get hit with a massive suit from boston childrens hospital.
and i HOPE that fox and newsmax and alexjones get hit with another massive suit from ray epps jan06er.


3.  BLM vs free speech.
no
because they've been systematically stripped of their 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, 14th rights.
and by the proper intent of the 2nd, have every right to escalate.
now if in context we're talking about ambushing a cop in his car - no.
But when in the defense of freedom their peaceful assembly is violently smashed up by the governemnt - yes.

which is cooooooooompletely different in religion attempting to use the 1stA used to strip others of the 1stA.



AMENDMENT I
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


DECLARATION OF INDEPDENDCE
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”



your religion can allow you to believe someone else is inferior.
but that's it.
as soon as your words and actions affect their opportunity, your freedom to believe stops at your fist/ face as the saying goes.



maybe i misread it, and you're refering to israel-palestine?
lindsay graham and max miller and USA policy are dancing a hypocritical dance and any attempt by the likes of MTG, the antisemite, to project that calling for ceasefire is equivalent to antisemitism is just nonsense.

context is context.
mutually exclusive vs inclusive.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1327 on: December 19, 2023, 03:13:11 PM »
jones talks about demons and "tehy're coming for you" to the mentally derranged.
for him to say he has no responsibility to his followers is nonsense since he knows he's crafted his delivery method and rhetoric to his audience.
as judged in a court of law - he is responsible.

take for example, if people are doing very bad things in the name of Jesus and the Bible, you an atheist says the leaders of said church are also to blame, not just the individual.
becuase when it starts happening en mass, it is no longer an indidivual lone wolf but a group-think-mandella effect that started from somewhere.
The distinction between religions and other groups, is that religions have holy books filled with commands that the adherents are meant to follow.
If someone of a particular religion commits and act commanded by that religion, especially if they openly state they did so because of that, then that religion is to blame.

If however, someone's fan/follower decide to do something that was not commanded or called for by that person, then the fan is to blame.
Just like if a BLM protestor calls for an end to police violence and someone following decides to try ending it by trying to end police by killing them, the BLM protestor is not to be treated as calling for violence; someone like Alex Jones spouting a bunch of crap which someone else decides to carry out violence because of, Alex Jones is not to be treated as calling for violence.

3.  BLM vs free speech.
no
because they've been systematically stripped of their 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, 14th rights.
and by the proper intent of the 2nd, have every right to escalate.
now if in context we're talking about ambushing a cop in his car - no.
But when in the defense of freedom their peaceful assembly is violently smashed up by the governemnt - yes.
BLM was a counter example.
The only way you can rationally hold Alex Jones responsible for the violence I gave in the example is you also hold the those promoting BLM responsible.
Especially as BLM protesters rioted all by themselves without any need government help.

What part of the 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th or 14th amendment gives them the right to riot or to murder innocent police officers?

your religion can allow you to believe someone else is inferior.
but that's it.
as soon as your words and actions affect their opportunity, your freedom to believe stops at your fist/ face as the saying goes.
You don't need religion for that.
As a free person, you are free to believe what you want.
And this includes believing someone else is inferior or wrong or whatever, even thinking that something should be punished with criminal charges.

As for your words and actions affecting their opportunity, it is a lot more complex than that.
If you think someone is an asshole, you are free to express that. If that causes them to lose a presidential campaign, or lose business, that is not a violation of their freedom, not unless you were lying about them, such as making up crimes (or even if they did commit crimes and you just can't substantiate them).

For example, if Amber Heard just said John Depp is a narcissistic asshole, that would be fine. But if she accuses him of crimes of assault and sexual assault, and cannot prove it, then that is not fine.
Even though both have the potential to affect the opportunities of John Depp.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1328 on: December 19, 2023, 03:40:53 PM »


Every time someone freaks out about Alex Jones I think about this.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1329 on: December 20, 2023, 07:21:46 AM »
What views do they have on gays that you think I agree with?

If they say that humans cannot change sex, then I agree with them on that. If they say that healthy children should not be given a powerful drug that shuts down their endocrine system, then I agree with that. If they say that men who decide they're women after they've been arrested for rape should not be housed in a female prison, then I agree with that. There are lots of things they may say that I might agree with. If one of them said lasagna is delicious, I would agree.

Me saying I don't think it's a big deal that they're back on Twitter is not the same as saying it's a good thing. I just am not bothered by it. I don't follow Trump or Alex Jones. I don't see their tweets. It's very easy for me to avoid seeing accts that I am not interested in. I don't even have to block them. I don't have the urge to control what other people read on the internet. If they're not posting things that are illegal, then I just don't know why it bothers anyone. If they're saying dangerous things, it's better to see it than let it fester in some dark corner of the internet. Isn't that what the media says every time some weirdo shoots up a school?

Me thinking you hate women has nothing to do with "hate speech". You thinking I hate trans people has nothing to do with "hate speech".  If you can't define a concept, what value does it have? I don't have to define it, because I think it is a stupid concept to begin with.
I think you watching Tucker Carlson absolutely amplified your hate for trans people. That's not exactly much of a stretch with all the awful things he says.  If I watch someone and they say some things I agree with, and then say a bunch of awful lies and angry hate then I stop watching. If you keep watching, well that says everything as far as I am concerned.

I see Tucker telling viewers that the trans movement is a militant group targeting Christians with violence. That trans people are demonic. That they are evil. It's them or us. 

When right wing zelots tell his viewers a childrens hospital is evil and spreads lies about them, and that hospital gets flooded with death threats and bomb threats, yes, that's hate speech.  I define hate speech as speech meant to incite violence against a group.  You don't have to blatantly say the words "kill them".  Saying a group is a threat and dangerous and needs to be stopped and are demons, evil, pedophiles and out to get your children is clear enough.

When Tucker targeted a drag queen with lies and hate they were subjected to hundreds of death threats as well. Hating men wearing dresses is something else the right wing loves to do. Why does this trigger conservatives so much?

If Tucker said lasagna is delicious I might agree with that statment, but if I was having a discussion about lasagna I sure as hell won't post one of his videos to support my views. Especially after all the leaks that show he does NOT believe what he states on his show, and will say anything at all that gets him views. He might very well be a secret trans lover, how can you know with all his lies?

Hate crimes against gays and trans have been rising steadily. I know you feel threatened by all the scary trans people who you might get stuck with in prison or compete with in the Olympics, but they are the ones being attacked and murdered.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1330 on: December 20, 2023, 07:37:42 AM »
We have very different ideas on what defines hate speech. You think I hate women, I think you hate transgendered people. We are never going to agree because I hear Tucker's words and see hate speech, and you see someone you agree with.
Yes, that is quite obvious.
You seem to think speech that you don't like about specific groups is hate speech, just because we don't agree with you.

No, I think speech that incites people to violence is hate speech. The fact that I also disagree with the speech is immaterial.

Refusing to call a trans person by the gender they identify as, is not hate speech.

No, it's just rude and being an asshole.

If they say trans people should get help to accept who they are, that is not hate speech.
If they say all trans people should die, that is hate speech.
If they directly call for people to harm trans people, that is hate speech.

You don't have to explicitly say "go kill gays" to be hate speech.

Saying "demonic evil gays are coming for your children and want to rape them and they need to be stopped" isn't calling directly for violence.  It's still hate speech and clearly going to incite violence.

Alex Jones has said a lot of crap, but I am yet to hear him call for violence (although I could have just not heard it yet).
The closest I have found is a tenuous connection where someone believed the crap he said and decided to go assault a pizzeria.

These are all things he said to drag performers on his show.

    We’re going to destroy you. You will ascend to Hell in the reverse order.

    They now know fear, because we’re coming like the villagers in the night, with the torches burning bright, with fire.

    Fire is not the weapon of evil, fire is the weapon of good, and it will consume you.

    You need to fear god. Your god has stolen your soul.

    Soon the icy cold of Hell will embrace you forever.

    Soon you will pass through and on, never to return to this dimension, never to ascend, but down, down, down, down, down, down, down into that black hole you’re going, chained.


Sure, he never outright said "Burn drag queens to death!" but that can't be taken any other way than threats.  I can very much imagine his listeners thinking he's calling for them to rise up against evil.  That is hate speech.  That is the speech the right wing supports.  The speech Musk supports by letting him back.

By the way, this is an interesting three-way we have here.

One conservative flat earther.
One conservative round earther.
One liberal round earther.

Can we get a liberal flat earther to join in? :D



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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1331 on: December 20, 2023, 08:24:08 AM »
Dude, I don't watch Tucker Carlson's show. I have seen maybe four of them, and that was because he was interviewing feminists I know (on the internet, as in I have had interactions with them on their websites or other social media, and I follow their work). Watching Tucker Carlson interview someone I already followed and admire didn't amplify anything except my gratitude that someone gave them a large platform to speak. I probably haven't watched more than a couple minutes of his show since 2021, oh and I think I watched the first one he posted on Twitter, I don't even remember what it was about. I also watched him interview Helena Kerschner, she detransitioned sometime in 2021, I think. I've never had a conversation with her, but I was following her long before she went on Tucker Carlson's show.

If you see Tucker Carlson telling viewers that the trans movement is a militant group targeting Christians with violence and that they are demonic and evil, then you have watched way more Tucker Carlson than I have.

I don't know what lies you are referring to about a children's hospital, is it Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital? I don't know what he had to say about that, because I followed that story directly from Jamie Reed (the whistleblower), I also read about it in the NYT, which confirmed most of her claims that children were being rushed into treatment, and were given testosterone instead of being treated for their underlying mental health issues.

Again, you watch Tucker Carlson, not me. I have no idea what drag queen he targeted with lies and hate. Most normies would prefer not to have men dressed like stripper clowns twerking in front of their kids. I don't think it's a conservative thing, just a normal thing.

If you label everything a hate crime it becomes meaningless. I do not believe "misgendering" is a hate crime. I do not believe single sex spaces are a hate crime. Trans people are not being murdered and attacked at a higher rate than other demographics, in fact they are among the safest demographic. Activists love to use the murder statistics of Brazil to make it seem like trans people are in danger everywhere else. Do you know who tends to murder transwomen most often? The men they are in relationships with. When it happens to women people call it domestic violence, when it happens to men pretending to be women it's a hate crime!

It will be interesting to see how much of this post you actually read, and how often you respond to something you made up in your own head! That's always fun.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1332 on: December 20, 2023, 08:28:45 AM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1333 on: December 20, 2023, 09:04:16 AM »
Dude, I don't watch Tucker Carlson's show. I have seen maybe four of them, and that was because he was interviewing feminists I know (on the internet, as in I have had interactions with them on their websites or other social media, and I follow their work).
Watching his show and posting links to his show promoting him and his views doesn't count as "not watching him".

If you see Tucker Carlson telling viewers that the trans movement is a militant group targeting Christians with violence and that they are demonic and evil, then you have watched way more Tucker Carlson than I have.
I've never once said I watch his show, not sure why you often respond to something you made up in your own head! But that's always fun.

Anyways, you can have it right from the source: "TUCKER CARLSON: The trans movement is targeting Christians"

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-trans-movement-targeting-christians

I don't know what lies you are referring to about a children's hospital, is it Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital? I don't know what he had to say about that, because I followed that story directly from Jamie Reed (the whistleblower), I also read about it in the NYT, which confirmed most of her claims that children were being rushed into treatment, and were given testosterone instead of being treated for their underlying mental health issues.

Let me explain what this sounds like to me.  To me, it sounds like you don't think transgendered people are real, and just have mental health issues which should be corrected.

Sounds an awful lot like gay conversion therapy.

Once again, none of this is new. Conservatives just took all their anti-gay tactics and changed them to anti-trans.

Again, you watch Tucker Carlson, not me. I have no idea what drag queen he targeted with lies and hate. Most normies would prefer not to have men dressed like stripper clowns twerking in front of their kids. I don't think it's a conservative thing, just a normal thing.

Again, this is why I think you hate gays.  You are all offended and upset that a man would wear a dress. "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES" you like to repeat. But gender isn't biology, it's a social construct. Don't get gender and sex confused.

There is no biological reason why a woman can wear a skirt and man can't.  Kilts exist, those are just skirts with another name.  Plenty of men wear skirts and dresses in other cultures.  What's the difference between make-up and war-paint?  Just because a man in a dress makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it wrong.  There was a time women couldn't wear pants, or bathing suits that showed ankles.

It's 100% a conservative thing to fixate on who gets to wear what kind of clothes.  You think it was CONSERVATIVE women that started wearing pants?  Or wore bathing suits and got arrested?  Or burned their bras?  Those were liberals. 

And yes I caught how you slipped "twerking in front of children" right after "drag queens" to try and equate them.  Do I need to link every instance where a woman twerked in front of children so I can claim women shouldn't exist?

If you label everything a hate crime it becomes meaningless. I do not believe "misgendering" is a hate crime. I do not believe single sex spaces are a hate crime. Trans people are not being murdered and attacked at a higher rate than other demographics, in fact they are among the safest demographic. Activists love to use the murder statistics of Brazil to make it seem like trans people are in danger everywhere else. Do you know who tends to murder transwomen most often? The men they are in relationships with. When it happens to women people call it domestic violence, when it happens to men pretending to be women it's a hate crime!

I never said misgendering is a hate crime.  Doing it intentionally is just being a jerk.

I don't know what to say to your claim that gays and transgender don't suffer violence at a higher rate. This has been a thing for as long as I've been alive, but feel free to pretend gays don't get attacked for being gay, or it's not a hate crime when someone is murdered because of who they are.

But you did make a good point, and one that I agree with. Violence against women because they are a woman should be a hate crime, yes.  Misogynistic talk that encourages abuse is also hate speech.  It used to be worse, at least now we say a man forcing his wife to have sex with him is rape when in the past it wasn't even a crime.

Tucker Carlson is once again, a good source for misogyny both on and off the air.  You really should look into this guy before telling people to watch him.

It will be interesting to see how much of this post you actually read, and how often you respond to something you made up in your own head! That's always fun.
I read it all. Even the parts where you insult me and accuse me of hating women and having a diaper kink. :D

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1334 on: December 20, 2023, 09:06:43 AM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm curious who are you going to vote for in 2024? Biden or Trump?

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Crouton

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1335 on: December 20, 2023, 09:37:46 AM »
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1336 on: December 20, 2023, 01:16:53 PM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm curious who are you going to vote for in 2024? Biden or Trump?
Both can go to Hell!

I dont believe in democracy anyway. That is why I never vote. I'm a fucking Monarchist!

But at the moment British Monarchy doesn't look well.... actually they havent looked well for a century now!

Spanish Monarchy is doing better.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1337 on: December 20, 2023, 01:17:09 PM »
JJA, this is a copy/pasted quote from one of your posts "I see Tucker telling viewers that the trans movement is a militant group targeting Christians with violence. That trans people are demonic. That they are evil. It's them or us." How can you see him telling viewers this if you don't watch his show?  AND omg did you just link to a Tucker Carlson opinion piece? Why are you promoting him?

Sorry, I feel the urge to JackBlack your post. I am not as skilled at fisking, but I will do my best.

I don't know what lies you are referring to about a children's hospital, is it Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis Children's Hospital? I don't know what he had to say about that, because I followed that story directly from Jamie Reed (the whistleblower), I also read about it in the NYT, which confirmed most of her claims that children were being rushed into treatment, and were given testosterone instead of being treated for their underlying mental health issues.

Let me explain what this sounds like to me.  To me, it sounds like you don't think transgendered people are real, and just have mental health issues which should be corrected.

Sounds an awful lot like gay conversion therapy.

Once again, none of this is new. Conservatives just took all their anti-gay tactics and changed them to anti-trans.

Do you realize how illogical this reply is? How does it sound like I don't think trans people are real? You never said what hospital or what lies, so I took a guess. Jamie Reed claims that testosterone was prescribed without proper mental health assessment. Her claims have been mostly confirmed by an NYT investigation. Shit, even Planned Parenthood advertises that they will prescribe hormones on the 1st visit (seriously google it, it's on their website). It is a mental health issue, though! Sometimes the best treatment for an individual will be transition, and sometimes not. How do they know which is best if they're prescribing blockers and hormones without mental health assessments?

Transitioning gay and lesbian kids because they do not conform to gender stereotypes is gay conversion therapy.

I don't know what conservative anti-gay tactics you are referring to. Being gay or lesbian doesn't require drugs or surgery.

Quote
Again, this is why I think you hate gays.  You are all offended and upset that a man would wear a dress. "THERE ARE ONLY TWO SEXES" you like to repeat. But gender isn't biology, it's a social construct. Don't get gender and sex confused.

There is no biological reason why a woman can wear a skirt and man can't.  Kilts exist, those are just skirts with another name.  Plenty of men wear skirts and dresses in other cultures.  What's the difference between make-up and war-paint?  Just because a man in a dress makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it wrong.  There was a time women couldn't wear pants, or bathing suits that showed ankles.

It's 100% a conservative thing to fixate on who gets to wear what kind of clothes.  You think it was CONSERVATIVE women that started wearing pants?  Or wore bathing suits and got arrested?  Or burned their bras?  Those were liberals. 

And yes I caught how you slipped "twerking in front of children" right after "drag queens" to try and equate them.  Do I need to link every instance where a woman twerked in front of children so I can claim women shouldn't exist?

Why do you keep conflating gay with trans?

Why on earth do you think I am offended that a man would wear a dress? And what does that have to do with the fact that there are only two sexes? You are so convinced anyone who disagrees with you is conservative, but that just tells me you are trapped in a weirdo performative middle class activist bubble. You can't even imagine the harm this ideology is causing regular women. Most of the women I associate with who fight against all this bullshit are actual leftists. Like actual socialists, and trade unionists. Some of them verge on being commies, even.

What does any of this have to do with drag? You understand that drag is not the same as a man wearing a skirt or a kilt? Right? Have you ever been to a drag show? I have. They are campy, fun,adult, entertainment. It's hilarious that you claim I "slipped "twerking in front of children" right after "drag queens" when I actually said "men dressed like stripper clowns". You have conflated stripper clowns with drag queens! lol Anyway, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel when they find drag queens willing to perform for little kids. They don't even bother to do a background check. I promise you the talented drag queens wouldn't be caught dead clapping their ass cheeks for bored white middle class moms and their little kids. (I would also be against women clapping their ass cheeks for the kids at the local library, btw.) 

Quote
I don't know what to say to your claim that gays and transgender don't suffer violence at a higher rate. This has been a thing for as long as I've been alive, but feel free to pretend gays don't get attacked for being gay, or it's not a hate crime when someone is murdered because of who they are.


Feel free to show me where trans people suffer violence at a higher rate for being trans. Feel free to show me just how many trans people are murdered "because of who they are". According to the trans activist organizations, at least half of the murdered tw are involved in the sex trade, which is incredibly deadly no matter how a person identifies. If you look up all the murdered tw for the year (in the US, Canada, and UK) you will see maybe one or two actually transphobic murders. The rest involve the sex trade, drug deals, or domestic violence. If you really think trans people suffer violence at a higher rate, show it. Show the math! I think you will find tw are in the safest demographic, unless you break it down by race. Black tw are murdered at about the same rate as black men in the US.


I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1338 on: December 20, 2023, 01:17:29 PM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm curious who are you going to vote for in 2024? Biden or Trump?

I'm not voting for either one of those fuckers.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1339 on: December 20, 2023, 01:40:54 PM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm curious who are you going to vote for in 2024? Biden or Trump?

I'm not voting for either one of those fuckers.

"None of the above" isn't an option you know.  You're going to get one of them, and you truly think they are both equally bad?

What has Biden done in your mind that makes him as bad, or worse than Trump?

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1340 on: December 20, 2023, 02:13:19 PM »
Sorry, I feel the urge to JackBlack your post. I am not as skilled at fisking, but I will do my best.

Oh quit with the fake modesty. You're quite the skilled and expert troll. :D

So let me try and properly respond to your trolling...

How can you see him telling viewers this if you don't watch his show?

Wow, do you really not understand that you can read excerpts from his show without actually watching it. Do you truly not understand that one can gain knowledge in more ways than watching a video on YouTube?

LOL, maybe you should learn how to read. Amazing... hey everyone, SCG doesn't know how reading works! Hahahah!

How did I do?  I tried my best!

Let me explain what this sounds like to me.  To me, it sounds like you don't think transgendered people are real, and just have mental health issues which should be corrected.

Sounds an awful lot like gay conversion therapy.

Once again, none of this is new. Conservatives just took all their anti-gay tactics and changed them to anti-trans.

Do you realize how illogical this reply is? How does it sound like I don't think trans people are real? You never said what hospital or what lies, so I took a guess. Jamie Reed claims that testosterone was prescribed without proper mental health assessment. Her claims have been mostly confirmed by an NYT investigation. Shit, even Planned Parenthood advertises that they will prescribe hormones on the 1st visit (seriously google it, it's on their website). It is a mental health issue, though! Sometimes the best treatment for an individual will be transition, and sometimes not. How do they know which is best if they're prescribing blockers and hormones without mental health assessments?

Overworked hospitals and clinics screwing up sucks no matter what gender or age it happens to.  Planned Parenthood giving out hormones on the first visit IF the doctor thinks that is the right course... that's a tougher one.  The medical community is split over this, some think it's the right way to go and some think therapy is needed.  I'm torn, as taking time to talk it out seems good, but then again, should a woman be forced to go through a month of therapy before being allowed an abortion?

Why on earth do you think I am offended that a man would wear a dress?
...
What does any of this have to do with drag? You understand that drag is not the same as a man wearing a skirt or a kilt? Right? Have you ever been to a drag show? I have. They are campy, fun,adult, entertainment.

Yes I've been to a drag show.  Some are adult, some are not.  But why do I think you're offended?

Because you are claiming all drag performances are "adult entertainment".  Because you said "men dressed like stripper clowns twerking in front of their kids" to explain why normal people dislike men dressing in drag.

It's hilarious that you claim I "slipped "twerking in front of children" right after "drag queens" when I actually said "men dressed like stripper clowns". You have conflated stripper clowns with drag queens! lol

You are really trying to pretend you weren't talking about drag queens there, but were totes just talking about those weird stripper clowns?  Is this another try at the trolling thing?  It feels like a troll.  Meh, I'll respond as if it was a serious argument.

  "Again, you watch Tucker Carlson, not me. I have no idea what drag queen he targeted with lies and hate. Most normies would prefer not to have men dressed like stripper clowns twerking in front of their kids. I don't think it's a conservative thing, just a normal thing. "

Sure... drag queens and twerking were totally unrelated, not even in the same sentence! How did I ever think you were talking about drag queens there.

Come on. Be better.

Anyway, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel when they find drag queens willing to perform for little kids. They don't even bother to do a background check. I promise you the talented drag queens wouldn't be caught dead clapping their ass cheeks for bored white middle class moms and their little kids. (I would also be against women clapping their ass cheeks for the kids at the local library, btw.) 

Yes, why would I think you have a problem with drag queens at all. Quite the mystery. Re-read what you said if you're actually confused. No negative emotion there at all, nope.

Feel free to show me where trans people suffer violence at a higher rate for being trans.

Sigh.

"A 2007 study by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation found that 59% of transgender women within California prisons reported sexual abuse, a rate thirteen times higher than the general prison population, with 50% of all transgender inmates reporting sexual assault whilst incarcerated."

Is it really a mystery to you that in prisons where rape is common, male to female trans inmates are going to be disproportionately attacked and assaulted?

"13 times higher" sure sounds like trans women in prison are attacked at a higher rate than cisgender men.

If you really think trans people suffer violence at a higher rate, show it. Show the math! I think you will find tw are in the safest demographic, unless you break it down by race. Black tw are murdered at about the same rate as black men in the US.
I showed you mine, now you show me yours.  Lets see your numbers because I suspect you're playing statistics games with me.

Show the math!

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1341 on: December 20, 2023, 02:17:14 PM »
I think you watching Tucker Carlson absolutely amplified your hate for trans people.
Is it hate for trans people, or just not accepting their claims about themselves. Because the 2 are quite different things.

When right wing zelots tell his viewers a childrens hospital is evil and spreads lies about them, and that hospital gets flooded with death threats and bomb threats, yes, that's hate speech.
So when people object to police brutality, especially with anything that could be considered a lie, and as a result police get threats against them, that is hate speech?

Again, saying something is evil is not hate speech.
Saying lies, depending on what they are, is not hate speech.

Saying a group is a threat and dangerous and needs to be stopped and are demons, evil, pedophiles and out to get your children is clear enough.
You don't have to explicitly say "go kill gays" to be hate speech.
Saying "demonic evil gays are coming for your children and want to rape them and they need to be stopped" isn't calling directly for violence.  It's still hate speech and clearly going to incite violence.
No, it isn't.
Are they calling for people to use violence to stop it? Or are they allowing other means?

Otherwise, again, are BLM protestors saying the police are dangerous and need to be stopped enough to be deemed a call to violence, and that anyone suggesting that or anything along the lines of that should be deemed to be saying hate speech?

When Tucker targeted a drag queen with lies and hate they were subjected to hundreds of death threats as well.
And the same would likely have happened just by drawing attention to the person in front of their hateful audience.
And the same happens in lots of cases where someone does something deemed bad by someone else and that someone else draws attention to them, without any indication of violence.
Having violent or incredibly hateful followers doesn't mean you are committing hate speech or calling for violence.

No, I think speech that incites people to violence is hate speech. The fact that I also disagree with the speech is immaterial.
You seem to also be happy including things which doesn't incite people to violence, and instead are merely things consistent with views of people who carry out violence.
But only when it is done by those you disagree with.

No, it's just rude and being an asshole.
No it isn't.
For many people doing that would be lying. Demanding someone does it is just rude and being an asshole.
But for many people, it would be considered hate speech.
Some are even urging it to be labelled a hate crime or think it already is:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/620221


These are all things he said to drag performers on his show.
    We’re going to destroy you. You will ascend to Hell in the reverse order.

    They now know fear, because we’re coming like the villagers in the night, with the torches burning bright, with fire.

    Fire is not the weapon of evil, fire is the weapon of good, and it will consume you.

    You need to fear god. Your god has stolen your soul.

    Soon the icy cold of Hell will embrace you forever.

    Soon you will pass through and on, never to return to this dimension, never to ascend, but down, down, down, down, down, down, down into that black hole you’re going, chained.

Unclear if it is calling for violence.
Destroy can be literal or figurative, such as during a poll having one side destroy the other.
Likewise, fire can be used to burn, or to illuminate.
But I agree that this is definitely bordering on the edge of what is acceptable.

By the way, this is an interesting three-way we have here.

One conservative flat earther.
One conservative round earther.
One liberal round earther.
So you are a conservative round earther? Because I'm not.
Although calling me liberal might be confusing because in Australia the liberal party is not liberal and instead is conservative.
I believe in liberty.
And that includes the right to say things which people don't like.
And to do things that people might not like.

Unlike the conservatives, that seem to want people to just believe and do as they approve.

For example, I am perfectly fine with people wearing whatever clothes they want (including none), as long as they don't go putting their naked butt on a public chair.
This includes women going topless, guys wearing dresses, girls wearing pants, and so on.
I am even fine with consenting adults having operations performed to modify their body.
What I am not fine with is people demanding others recognise them and treat them in a way that these others believe to be a lie.

It also means I understand the importance of free speech, and that trying to restrict it will often make things worse, and lead to censorship of any idea the majority doesn't approve, silencing valid criticisms and the hope for a path forwards.
Free speech is only important for speech that isn't liked. If the speech is liked, then people will be allowed to say it regardless. So in order for free speech to be meaningful, it needs to protect unpopular speech, including speech some might consider hateful.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1342 on: December 20, 2023, 02:47:49 PM »
Sounds an awful lot like gay conversion therapy.
The fundamental distinction is that homosexuality relates to a sexual preference, i.e. who you are attracted to. That is mental.
So conversion therapy for them is trying to change their mind, for no other reason than people want it that way.

But for trans, it is in the name, trans, opposite.
That is where there is a "misalignment", where their mind doesn't match their body, where their mental identity is opposite their body.
The question then becomes what should be "corrected", should it be their mind or body?
Those promoting the trans movement would say their body. Those opposed would say their mind.
In this case, the treatment proposed by those opposing the trans movement would be to have them accept their body as it is.

Because some people think it is hateful to suggest fixing their mind, they want to relate it to conversion therapy for homosexuals.
Because some people think it is a mental disorder, and a disconnect between the body and mind, they want to relate it to other disorders like that, like anorexia.
Where they "treat" anorexic people to accept their body how it is and be healthy, rather than trying to deprive themselves of food to get super thin.

Again, this is why I think you hate gays.  You are all offended and upset that a man would wear a dress.
That is nothing like what they said. Drag queens don't just wear a dress and call it a day.
Instead they typically put on ridiculous amounts of makeup and end up looking like a clown.
And while that is fine at certain events, for everyday life I don't see the point, and would say the same about a guy or girl doing it.
As for your comparison to war paint, if I saw someone going about their everyday life with loads of war paint on, I would wonder what the hell is wrong with them.

But gender isn't biology, it's a social construct. Don't get gender and sex confused.
Gender used to have very limited meanings.
It was used as a system of classification of words.
It was used as a euphemism for sex, with the same words for sex, i.e. male and female, man and woman.
And it was used as a collection of outdated sexist stereotypes, being masculine and feminine.

But now it seems people want to try conflating the 2 latter meanings, taking the words used for sex and pretending they are for gender and inventing an entirely new meaning where it is just a collection of meaningless labels which just serves to divide people. And while doing so, continually also pretend it is actually sex that they are talking about rather than this collection of meaningless labels.

I do not see how that could ever be a positive thing for humanity.
Leave sex as sex.
If you want a new collection of meaningless labels, go make a new collection, don't use the words already used for sex.

If I say someone is a man or a woman, I am referring to their sex. If I say someone is male or female, I am referring to their sex. If I use the sex-based pronouns he/she, I am referring to their sex.
And likewise, plenty of things are divided based upon sex.

If they want to claim they aren't doing this, then stick to the labels for gender, e.g. masculine and feminine.
e.g. call a male to female trans person a feminine male.

a hate crime when someone is murdered because of who they are.
Most people are murdered because of who they are.
Most murders are not random.
It is a hate crime when they are murdered because of membership of a group, when membership of that group provides no justification for killing them.

Violence against women because they are a woman should be a hate crime, yes.  Misogynistic talk that encourages abuse is also hate speech.  It used to be worse, at least now we say a man forcing his wife to have sex with him is rape when in the past it wasn't even a crime.
But only if it is actually because they are a woman. If they suffer violence and just happen to be a woman, that is not enough.
Yes, that is now considered rape. However if a woman forces a man to have sex with her, it typically isn't considered rape, at least for plenty of places.

Overworked hospitals and clinics screwing up sucks no matter what gender or age it happens to.  Planned Parenthood giving out hormones on the first visit IF the doctor thinks that is the right course... that's a tougher one.  The medical community is split over this, some think it's the right way to go and some think therapy is needed.  I'm torn, as taking time to talk it out seems good, but then again, should a woman be forced to go through a month of therapy before being allowed an abortion?
When you are dealing with a child, I would say the choice is clear. Hormones which screw up their physical and mental development should not be a first resort.
That is quite different to wanting the removal of an unwanted growth.

Yes, the medical community is splt. But why?
Is it because many are afraid to say anything which might be seen as anyway anti-trans? Which results in them not reporting honestly?
Because that, and people's reaction is what is causing even more issues.

Because you are claiming all drag performances are "adult entertainment".  Because you said "men dressed like stripper clowns twerking in front of their kids" to explain why normal people dislike men dressing in drag.
No, they aren't.

The question was which one was targeted. As far as I know, MOST (not all) are adult ones, which are dressed and made up quite ridiculously.
It is likely that one of them was the target, rather than a less ridiculously dressed one, or a guy walking down the street in a dress.

"A 2007 study by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation found that 59% of transgender women within California prisons reported sexual abuse, a rate thirteen times higher than the general prison population, with 50% of all transgender inmates reporting sexual assault whilst incarcerated."
Yet you don't even link to the study.
I assume you mean this one:
https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.uci.edu/dist/0/1149/files/2013/06/BulletinVol2Issue2.pdf

If so, it suffers from small sample sizes, and admits that the random sampling is not a representative sampling.
It is also focusing on a specific type of crime, sexual assault, entirely ignoring other crimes like normal assault.
And are they being specifically targeted because they are trans, or do they just have other attributes which result in them being targeted which are correlated with being trans?

I also wouldn't use the prison population as a representative sample.

I would say this is a much better representative study:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231201011833/https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/vvsogi1720.pdf
It shows the rate is 2.5 times higher.
But as it is a survey it may suffer from reporting bias.
And the trans side has a much larger standard error due to only having a few hundred (out of the few hundred thousand) responses.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1343 on: December 20, 2023, 03:21:29 PM »
JJA, you added "in prison" to show that tw are raped at a higher rate... in prison. This does not show that tw suffer violence at a higher rate, or that they are murdered at a higher rate "for being trans". 

Also, if I were just trolling I would have told you to stop stealing diapers and smearing shit  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12882237/Transgender-woman-45-dumped-soiled-adult-nappies-childrens-nurseries-stole-roll-clinical-waste-bags-local-business-hid-inside-bin-appears-court.html  It's not a mental illness, though!

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1344 on: December 20, 2023, 03:26:14 PM »
p.s.

I am the liberal

"relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise."
I'm curious who are you going to vote for in 2024? Biden or Trump?

I'm not voting for either one of those fuckers.

"None of the above" isn't an option you know.  You're going to get one of them, and you truly think they are both equally bad?

What has Biden done in your mind that makes him as bad, or worse than Trump?

You asked me which I was voting for. Neither is absolutely an option.  You made up the "equally bad" part.

Biden is too old and feeble. Believe it or not, I do not need to compare him to Trump to know I don't want him to be president.

I'm going to write in Amy Klobuchar. She is one to watch! 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1345 on: December 21, 2023, 04:23:17 AM »
No, it's just rude and being an asshole.
No it isn't.
For many people doing that would be lying. Demanding someone does it is just rude and being an asshole.
But for many people, it would be considered hate speech.

Yes it is.  Let me use an analogy to show you what you sound like.

  "Hi Bobby."

  "It's just Bob these days."

  "Your birth certificate says Robert so I'm not calling you Rob. Keep your woke mind virus bullshit to yourself... ROBERT."


See, that's being an asshole.  If someone wants to be called he, she or them, why do you get so angry over it?

  "Hi Mister Anderson."

  "Call me Chuck, Mister Anderson is my dad."

  "No, I'm not going to lie and call you anything else but what I want to call you.  You can't make me!"


It's not hate speech, it's just hateful speech. You're happy to call everyone else what they prefer, but not trans. You have your justifications I'm sure, but liberals just think we should, you know, be nice to people that haven't done anything to you? 

If you need more examples, imagine all the racial slurs that you don't use because you know they are offensive. That's being nice to people.  It doesn't hurt you not to use those words, but it does hurt others if you do.

I think using a hyphenated last name when getting married is dumb and refuse to change mine, but I'm not going to refuse to call others by what they choose. Because that would be... rude. My choices are mine, their choices are theirs.

Just relax and quit taking what other people want as some kind of personal attack. Gays and trans really don't care what you think, they just want to be called by their names, which is whatever they damn want them to be.

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1346 on: December 21, 2023, 04:44:28 AM »

"None of the above" isn't an option you know.  You're going to get one of them, and you truly think they are both equally bad?

What has Biden done in your mind that makes him as bad, or worse than Trump?

You asked me which I was voting for. Neither is absolutely an option.  You made up the "equally bad" part.

Biden is too old and feeble. Believe it or not, I do not need to compare him to Trump to know I don't want him to be president.

I'm going to write in Amy Klobuchar. She is one to watch!

Neither is NOT an option.  You are going to get one of those two.  Voting for a third party doesn't remove the actions of your choice, and choosing not to support one or the other is still a choice. 

Biden is old... so you're not going to support him against Trump for that lame reason?  A Trump presidency would be another disaster for liberal policies.  That's how we got the supreme court we have now.  It puts the government under the control of an extremest right wing party, one that thinks it's ok for 12 year old girls to get knocked up, forbidden to get an abortion but allowed to marry the guy, and that's ok because Biden is... old?

No... you can't pick none of the above.  If you have the chance to swing the election to the more liberal side and don't, you're helping Trump win.

You claim you don't think they are equally bad, but by not supporting one or the other you are in fact saying exactly that.  I didn't make it up... if you can't choose between two bad choices, that means you find them equally bad.  If you truly thought Trump was worse than Biden, you would vote for Biden.

Also rather ironic that you refuse to support Biden for being too old at 81, won't vote for him, no way... but a 63 year old woman is great! She would be 74 at the end of her two terms you know... but that's fine I guess? Your reasoning doesn't make much sense to me.

You can't escape this choice.  And remember, for evil to triumph only requires the good to do nothing.  Voting for a third party in the 2024 election is doing nothing and doesn't absolve your choice in getting Trump elected if that happens.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1347 on: December 21, 2023, 06:10:52 AM »
You asked me who I am voting for. I am not going to vote for either of those fucksticks. You can't make me!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1348 on: December 21, 2023, 07:17:01 AM »

Vote for your damn country! There is no such thing as bad as Trump (for your country), at this particular time.

Geriatric bumbling fool aside he won't be looking to make himself immortal and untouchable, whilst wreaking vengeance on all and sundry.
Life is meaningless and everything dies.

Suicide is dangerous- other philosophies are available-#Life is great.

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Crouton

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #1349 on: December 21, 2023, 07:30:52 AM »
Well it is a tough choice.  On the one hand we have Trump who is running on a promise to exact vengeance on a country that rejected him 4 years ago and end democracy.

On the other hand we have Biden who falls down a lot.

It's very unclear which one is worse for the country.

Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget