Your thoughts on Elon musk?

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #300 on: July 28, 2022, 04:15:21 PM »
So in your search to find out if reuse is viable or not, you are specifically looking for cases where its not, opposed to the majority of the cases where it is.
No, I'm looking for an honest comparison between 2 vehicles, one reusable and one expendable, where both are using the majority of their payload capacity, instead of reuse being better if you fly only a small portion of the payload capacity.
The thing is that F9 and FH can both be flown in expendable or various reusable modes and have different payload capacities based on those modes.  Comparing the best mode of one against the worst mode of the other is hardly an honest comparison.
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #301 on: July 29, 2022, 01:12:26 AM »
The thing is that F9 and FH can both be flown in expendable or various reusable modes and have different payload capacities based on those modes.  Comparing the best mode of one against the worst mode of the other is hardly an honest comparison.
Pretty much any rocket booster that is made to be reusable can be flown in an expendable manner to get a better payload.
So because of that you are basically saying you will never accept a comparison that shows expendable can be better.

The comparisons I have provided are pretty much the only honest ways to make such a comparison.
You can either consider the full payload of a single rocket in either mode, to see how much it costs per kg; or you can compare comparable payloads between 2 different rockets operating near their maximum capacity.
Any other comparison would be quite dishonest.

And the second option means you need to compare 2 rockets, one operating in the best mode for payload (expendable), and one operating in a much worse mode (reusable).

That is pretty much the point I have been making. Making it reusable makes it far less capable.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #302 on: July 29, 2022, 02:15:32 AM »
Materials are finite. Why the hell do you advocate a throw away society Jack? Money is just arbitrary and made up.

You've lost this debate Jack. Both on the costs and also the ethics

The only thing I think we all agree on is Elon Musk is a huge dickwad.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #303 on: July 29, 2022, 02:38:29 AM »
A puppet for the establishment, like Zuckerberg and such.
How is he a puppet I am curios? Who is pulling the strings, the illuminati? Free Masons? Sponge Bob?
I don't think you're curious.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #304 on: July 29, 2022, 02:44:55 AM »
A puppet for the establishment, like Zuckerberg and such.
How is he a puppet I am curios? Who is pulling the strings, the illuminati? Free Masons? Sponge Bob?
I don't think you're curious.

I wouldn't have though Zuckerberg was a puppet but one of the puppet masters. He has a billion+ people under his heel through this Facebook/Meta shit

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #305 on: July 29, 2022, 02:51:44 AM »
Materials are finite. Why the hell do you advocate a throw away society Jack?
Pretty much the entire space industry is based upon throwing stuff away.
I would prefer trying to do things on Earth rather than in space.
For example, I see starlink as a massive waste built upon throwing stuff away.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #306 on: July 29, 2022, 02:53:02 AM »
Materials are finite. Why the hell do you advocate a throw away society Jack?
Pretty much the entire space industry is based upon throwing stuff away.
I would prefer trying to do things on Earth rather than in space.
For example, I see starlink as a massive waste built upon throwing stuff away.

I see the space industry as our pursuit of knowledge but hey, you do you

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #307 on: July 29, 2022, 04:42:14 AM »
Different president, and standard government incompetence with estimating launch prices for a rocket that isn't developed yet.
Remember, they thought the shuttle would be really cheap, until they actually did it.
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/55583main_vision_space_exploration2.pdf
This is from the offical anouncement of the reitring of the STS.
"or future, sustainable exploration pro-grams, NASA requires cost-effective vehicles that may be reused, have systems that could be applied to more than one destination, and are highly reliable and need only small ground crews."
"with Space Station assembly complete at the end of this decade, NASA will retire the Space Shuttle and put crew and cargo on different launches, a safer approach to crew transport."
In that document, the STS disasters is mentioned multiple times. They where seen as death traps near the end, and even needed a back up STS be on the pad when another was in orbit in case a rescue was needed.
They also all reached the end of their structural life as they where getting old. Money is always a concern, but NASA's budget comes from the national tresury, they dont have a budget per se. If NASA spends less, they cant use it on other projects, each project is approved by congress.

Why wasn't returning downrange available at the time?
They only had 2 drone ships. 3rd on only came online in may 2021.

No, I'm looking for an honest comparison between 2 vehicles, one reusable and one expendable, where both are using the majority of their payload capacity, instead of reuse being better if you fly only a small portion of the payload capacity.

If there was a smaller version of the Falcon, which had the capacity of the reusable F9, how much would it cost?
Just using F9 disposable vs semi-reusable you can make some cost per kg comparisons. They both end very close to the same price per kg if they maximise their payload.
Some things this does not tell us.
What is the actual cost, and not price? - we more or less know what reusable cost is, but not new cost
What is the use case? - Because your not launching kg's, but satellites, what configuration do customers actually want?
How does this influence fixed and variable costs of a company? - If you need another factory to produce one more unit, then your fixed costs jump at that extra unit.
How does this influence your launch cadence? - F9 partial reusablity allows SpaceX facotries to focus only on 2nd stages, and not a big bigger 1st stage. This means they can produce more complete rockets quicker for less fixed cost.

This is a complex question, and you can get whatever you want out of it. And there are also differnt ways to reuse a vehicle. Not all models are the same, and will result in the same outcome.

Yes they do. They still have liquid oxygen, and fuel to deal with.
They have the heat of rentry to deal with.
With your comment, I take it you think 9-11 was an inside job, because jet fuel can't melt steel beams?
Or do you recognise that heat can cause steel to lose its strength and potentially fail at quite low temperatures, even as low as 300 C?
Liquid Oxygen is a lot easier to work with for a lot of reasons. Aside from the fact that it boils at 50'C warmer than hydrogen, it does not cause metal embrittlement. The oxygen atom is a lot bigger and much easier to deal with, meaning it does not leak right through a solid steel pipe. Hydrogen also needs much larger fuel tanks due to its very low energy density. Hydrogen is very much NOT like oxygen. You also need to be a lot more careful around hydrogen, as it burns clear and is hard to detect. This means you could literally have a hydrogen flame shooting out of a pipe, and you wont know it until it burns your leg off.
But O2 is not a fuel, its an oxidiser. RP-1 and Liquid Methane is easy to deal with.

As for strength over temperature.
Different materials perform differntly at different temperatures.

Aluminium drops below a usable strength at very low temperatures.
At 20'C, aluminium can hold 250 MPa stress
At 300'C its below 80Mpa or about 30% its initial strength

Staniless steel
At 20'C its about 590Mpa
But at 600'C is still at 380Mpa, still at 65% of its initial strength.

For exposure to heat, you want stainless steel over aluminium. STS was heavy and they needed aluminium to get it under weight at the cost of playing very close to failure if a tile breaks. SS has more thrust available to it, so they can forgo some mass efficency for safety.

So you were making a point which wasn't relevant at all?
I already know that they can. The issue is where is the reusable second stage?
No where. The closest you get to that is the shuttle, which ditched a quite heavy tank just before getting into orbit.
There are no fully reusable rockets in existance yet. Im not sure what you are thinking?!
Im giving example of components of reusability at every stage. 1st stage has been done. Return from Orbit and beyond has been done. Not in the same vehicle obviously. But it seems that something are not all that obvious for everyone.
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #308 on: July 29, 2022, 05:10:35 AM »
Pretty much any rocket booster that is made to be reusable can be flown in an expendable manner to get a better payload.
So because of that you are basically saying you will never accept a comparison that shows expendable can be better.

The comparisons I have provided are pretty much the only honest ways to make such a comparison.
You can either consider the full payload of a single rocket in either mode, to see how much it costs per kg; or you can compare comparable payloads between 2 different rockets operating near their maximum capacity.
Any other comparison would be quite dishonest.

And the second option means you need to compare 2 rockets, one operating in the best mode for payload (expendable), and one operating in a much worse mode (reusable).

That is pretty much the point I have been making. Making it reusable makes it far less capable.
The problem is your seeing this as an exercise to maximising some specific utility. Max payload.
Maximum payload not what customers are looking for. Not everyone is building 22 ton satellites to go to orbit, heck, nearly no one is.
You need to first look at what customers want, then see how to best suit that. F9 was built around a business model, so they designed a rocket that is far to big in disposable mode, so it can be flown cheaper for the actual market they are targeting.
F9 reusable is an excellent rocket for most customers. However its not an ideal rocket by a long shot. It has a terrible 2nd stage for example. If you want a better second stage, you double or tripple your launch budget and fly with ULA.
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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #309 on: July 29, 2022, 07:24:23 AM »
Materials are finite. Why the hell do you advocate a throw away society Jack?
Pretty much the entire space industry is based upon throwing stuff away.
I would prefer trying to do things on Earth rather than in space.
For example, I see starlink as a massive waste built upon throwing stuff away.
Being a share holder of French Arianeespace BV company I always recommend our one-way rockets to LEO or GEO. They have no engines but just solid fuel burning to produce hot gas through a nozzle catapulting the pay load into orbit. The best and cheapest way.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #310 on: July 29, 2022, 09:01:28 AM »
Being a share holder of French Arianeespace BV company I always recommend our one-way rockets to LEO or GEO. They have no engines but just solid fuel burning to produce hot gas through a nozzle catapulting the pay load into orbit. The best and cheapest way.
Ariane space and cheap dont go side to side very well. Hopefully Ariane 6 is better than its predecessor.
What rocket are you talking about that is all solids that goes to GEO? As far as I know Vega (Which is mostly made in Italy) has never made GEO.
Vega also has the history of destorying the very expensive satellites during failures.
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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #311 on: July 29, 2022, 09:37:50 AM »
Being a share holder of French Arianeespace BV company I always recommend our one-way rockets to LEO or GEO. They have no engines but just solid fuel burning to produce hot gas through a nozzle catapulting the pay load into orbit. The best and cheapest way.
Ariane space and cheap dont go side to side very well. Hopefully Ariane 6 is better than its predecessor.
What rocket are you talking about that is all solids that goes to GEO? As far as I know Vega (Which is mostly made in Italy) has never made GEO.
Vega also has the history of destorying the very expensive satellites during failures.
I am talking about Ariane 5, that can lob 20 tons into LEO and 10 tons into GTO. For that Ariane 5 burns > 750 tons of solid fuel. It is simple fire works, even if there are three rockets at lift off for big pay loads. Who need to lob 10-20 tons into space? Aha! NASA wants to go the Moon and back and land on Earth after that. Arianespace solid fuel crafts/rockets are one way only and mostly with much smaller pay loads.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #312 on: July 29, 2022, 02:21:24 PM »
I am talking about Ariane 5, that can lob 20 tons into LEO and 10 tons into GTO. For that Ariane 5 burns > 750 tons of solid fuel.

*sigh*  Anders, you really need to learn the products that you're trying to push.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Cryogenic_main_stage
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #313 on: July 29, 2022, 06:07:53 PM »
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/55583main_vision_space_exploration2.pdf
This is from the offical anouncement of the reitring of the STS.
"or future, sustainable exploration pro-grams, NASA requires cost-effective vehicles that may be reused, have systems that could be applied to more than one destination, and are highly reliable and need only small ground crews."
"with Space Station assembly complete at the end of this decade, NASA will retire the Space Shuttle and put crew and cargo on different launches, a safer approach to crew transport."
In that document, the STS disasters is mentioned multiple times.
[/quote]
You left out another great quote for it:
"NASA will free up resources in its budget in three ways: holding down growth in existing programs that do not support the vision; retiring the Space Shuttle to free up billions of dollars in the next decade; and focusing on innovations that reduce the cost of sustained space operations"

Sure sounds like cost was a significant contributing factor.

They only had 2 drone ships. 3rd on only came online in may 2021.
So it is still not possible to have a downrange landing for all three boosters, at least not without a massive delay to move a drone ship.
2 operate in the Atlantic and 1 in the Pacific.

Just using F9 disposable vs semi-reusable you can make some cost per kg comparisons. They both end very close to the same price per kg if they maximise their payload.
Some things this does not tell us.
What is the actual cost, and not price?
And until there is more transparency from spaceX, or an independent audit, we will not know that.

Liquid Oxygen is a lot easier to work with for a lot of reasons. Aside from the fact that it boils at 50'C warmer than hydrogen, it does not cause metal embrittlement.
The cold temperature of liquid oxygen can cause steel to undergo a ductile to brittle transition, causing similar embrittlement.
All cryogenic fluids have issues regarding metal embrittlement.

Hydrogen also needs much larger fuel tanks due to its very low energy density.
Conversely, other fuels need a lot greater mass of the fuel.

There are no fully reusable rockets in existance yet. Im not sure what you are thinking?!
You indicated that there are current examples of reusability at every stage.
Where is a reusable second stage?
I haven't seen one.

The problem is your seeing this as an exercise to maximising some specific utility. Max payload.
I would say more a rocket suited to the payload.

so they designed a rocket that is far to big in disposable mode, so it can be flown cheaper for the actual market they are targeting.
And that is basically the issue with your comparisons.
F9 is too large for a disposable rocket for LEO for most payloads.
So what would a smaller version with a more appropriate payload cost?
Would it be more or less expensive than a reusable F9?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 06:10:49 PM by JackBlack »

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2022, 06:19:54 PM »
The thing is that F9 and FH can both be flown in expendable or various reusable modes and have different payload capacities based on those modes.  Comparing the best mode of one against the worst mode of the other is hardly an honest comparison.
Pretty much any rocket booster that is made to be reusable can be flown in an expendable manner to get a better payload.
So because of that you are basically saying you will never accept a comparison that shows expendable can be better.

The comparisons I have provided are pretty much the only honest ways to make such a comparison.
You can either consider the full payload of a single rocket in either mode, to see how much it costs per kg; or you can compare comparable payloads between 2 different rockets operating near their maximum capacity.
Any other comparison would be quite dishonest.

And the second option means you need to compare 2 rockets, one operating in the best mode for payload (expendable), and one operating in a much worse mode (reusable).

That is pretty much the point I have been making. Making it reusable makes it far less capable.
If you want to compare expendable vs reusable, then compare F9 expendable vs F9 reusable or FH expendable vs FH reusable.  The payload penalty is already well known to be about 30% for F9 reusable vs expendable.  SpaceX knows this.  Their customers know this.  The media knows this.  Everyone knows this.  You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion, except for your unsourced implication that the F9 booster costs more to refurbish than to build new.
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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #315 on: July 29, 2022, 06:38:58 PM »
I am talking about Ariane 5, that can lob 20 tons into LEO and 10 tons into GTO. For that Ariane 5 burns > 750 tons of solid fuel.

*sigh*  Anders, you really need to learn the products that you're trying to push.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Cryogenic_main_stage

The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple. Anyway, it works one-way up only and after lift-off it is never seen again.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #316 on: July 29, 2022, 07:12:22 PM »
If you want to compare expendable vs reusable, then compare F9 expendable vs F9 reusable or FH expendable vs FH reusable.
And the only honest way to do that is to do it on a per kg basis, which shows the expendable is cheaper.
What is entirely dishonest is to say a reusable rocket with a significant payload penalty is cheaper than the same rocket as a disposable rocket with a greater payload.

Again, the best honest comparison is between 2 rockets from the same company, one reusable, one expendable, with roughly the same payload capacity.

Everyone knows this.  You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion, except for your unsourced implication that the F9 booster costs more to refurbish than to build new.
That is not my implication at all.
My implication is that due to the payload penalty for a reusable rocket, and the cost to refurbish it, it can be cheaper to use an expendable rocket.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #317 on: July 29, 2022, 07:48:17 PM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #318 on: July 30, 2022, 02:28:16 AM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #319 on: July 30, 2022, 08:31:25 AM »
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.
I was going to ask if you're just trolling or if you're genuinely this stupid.  Then I remembered that you're a geocentrist and I was able to answer my own question.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #320 on: July 30, 2022, 10:07:55 AM »
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.
I was going to ask if you're just trolling or if you're genuinely this stupid.  Then I remembered that you're a geocentrist and I was able to answer my own question.
Yes, looking out of my window I have concluded that planet Earth is the center of the Universe that Tycho Brahe concluded centuries ago. I know plenty stupid people do no agree but I respect different opinions about anything.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #321 on: July 30, 2022, 11:15:13 AM »
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.
I was going to ask if you're just trolling or if you're genuinely this stupid.  Then I remembered that you're a geocentrist and I was able to answer my own question.
Yes, looking out of my window I have concluded that planet Earth is the center of the Universe that Tycho Brahe concluded centuries ago. I know plenty stupid people do no agree but I respect different opinions about anything.

Well from our vantage point in a 93 billion light year sphere we are at the centre. But to a 3 breasted and very hot looking alien babe in the triangulum galaxy, from her vantage point, she is also at the centre. No matter where you are located, looking from your observable sphere, you will be at the centre.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #322 on: July 30, 2022, 11:34:27 AM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.

As Marko pointed out, you are wrong. Apparently, Ariane Space, you know, the folks who actually designed and built it, say you are wrong as well. I'm gonna go with the folks who built the the thing before I would take the word of a lone deluded conspiracy theorist.

"As the central element of Ariane 5, the core cryogenic stage serves as one of the launcher’s key propulsion systems.  It carries a propellant load of 132.27 metric tons of liquid oxygen and 25.84 metric tons of liquid hydrogen to feed the stage’s Vulcain main engine."
arianespace

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #323 on: July 30, 2022, 01:05:12 PM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.

As Marko pointed out, you are wrong. Apparently, Ariane Space, you know, the folks who actually designed and built it, say you are wrong as well. I'm gonna go with the folks who built the the thing before I would take the word of a lone deluded conspiracy theorist.

"As the central element of Ariane 5, the core cryogenic stage serves as one of the launcher’s key propulsion systems.  It carries a propellant load of 132.27 metric tons of liquid oxygen and 25.84 metric tons of liquid hydrogen to feed the stage’s Vulcain main engine."
arianespace
Anyway, the boosters are solid fuel fire works and I see no reason why the main rocket cannot be the same. Ariane 5 is just for one-way LEO and GTO trips and solid fuel is the best for it. Elon is going to Mars with passengers, he says, so he needs liquid fuel, poor sod.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #324 on: July 30, 2022, 01:20:42 PM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.

As Marko pointed out, you are wrong. Apparently, Ariane Space, you know, the folks who actually designed and built it, say you are wrong as well. I'm gonna go with the folks who built the the thing before I would take the word of a lone deluded conspiracy theorist.

"As the central element of Ariane 5, the core cryogenic stage serves as one of the launcher’s key propulsion systems.  It carries a propellant load of 132.27 metric tons of liquid oxygen and 25.84 metric tons of liquid hydrogen to feed the stage’s Vulcain main engine."
arianespace
Anyway, the boosters are solid fuel fire works and I see no reason why the main rocket cannot be the same. Ariane 5 is just for one-way LEO and GTO trips and solid fuel is the best for it. Elon is going to Mars with passengers, he says, so he needs liquid fuel, poor sod.

Elon Musk is not going to Mars. It's that 'Mars One' hoax all over again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_One

Mars can not be colonised or terraformed. You'd have more luck making a cloud city on Venus or living on Saturns moon Titan. Mars is dead


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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #325 on: July 30, 2022, 02:16:53 PM »
Anyway, the boosters are solid fuel fire works and I see no reason why the main rocket cannot be the same.
Because liquid propellant rockets can burn for more than a bout 2 minutes at a time.  Liquid propellant rocket engines can also be throttled or turned off and reignited.

Ariane 5 is just for one-way LEO and GTO trips and solid fuel is the best for it.
If solid propellant was best, then more rockets would be using it.  As it is, only a very few rockets use solid propellant all the way to orbit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-propellant_rocket#Orbital_rockets
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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #326 on: July 30, 2022, 04:08:06 PM »
The boosters have solid fuel and maybe also the rocket itself to keep it simple.

Yes for the side boosters.  No for the main stage.  It uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen as the propellant.
Ariane 5's cryogenic H173 main stage (H158 for Ariane 5G, G+, and GS) is called the EPC (Étage Principal Cryotechnique — Cryotechnic Main Stage). It consists of a 5.4 m (18 ft) diameter by 30.5 m (100 ft) high tank with two compartments, one for liquid oxygen and one for liquid hydrogen, and a Vulcain 2 engine at the base with a vacuum thrust of 1,390 kN (310,000 lbf).
I know! It is just to keep NASA happy. Because the complete Ariane 5 is simply solid fuel with no liquid oxygen and nitrogen anywhere. it works for the boosters and for the main rocket. The bosters are just fitted to increase the pay load.

As Marko pointed out, you are wrong. Apparently, Ariane Space, you know, the folks who actually designed and built it, say you are wrong as well. I'm gonna go with the folks who built the the thing before I would take the word of a lone deluded conspiracy theorist.

"As the central element of Ariane 5, the core cryogenic stage serves as one of the launcher’s key propulsion systems.  It carries a propellant load of 132.27 metric tons of liquid oxygen and 25.84 metric tons of liquid hydrogen to feed the stage’s Vulcain main engine."
arianespace
Anyway, the boosters are solid fuel fire works and I see no reason why the main rocket cannot be the same. Ariane 5 is just for one-way LEO and GTO trips and solid fuel is the best for it. Elon is going to Mars with passengers, he says, so he needs liquid fuel, poor sod.

Who cares what a lone deluded conspiracy theorist thinks as to why the main rocket should be this or that? No one.

The Ariane engineers decided their rocket would have a liquid fuel main rocket. Last I checked, you aren't an engineer at the Ariane company, or am I mistaken?

What makes you think you know more about the Ariane 5 than the company and people who engineered and built it?

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #327 on: July 30, 2022, 07:25:56 PM »
Yes, looking out of my window I have concluded that planet Earth is the center of the Universe
Don't feel to bad, lots of stupid people make that mistake.

I know plenty stupid people do no agree but I respect different opinions about anything.
What you should be worried about are the intelligent people who do not agree.
Respecting different opinions typically wont include indicating people are stupid if they don't agree.

Anyway, the boosters are solid fuel fire works and I see no reason why the main rocket cannot be the same. Ariane 5 is just for one-way LEO and GTO trips and solid fuel is the best for it. Elon is going to Mars with passengers, he says, so he needs liquid fuel, poor sod.
Efficiency.
Solid rocket fuel is good for small rockets.
But liquid is much better for larger rockets, or if you need to control the throttle.

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Heiwa

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #328 on: July 30, 2022, 11:07:54 PM »
I really like the French Arianespace solid fuel rockets that lob satellites one-way into LEO and GTO at little cost. This Elon Musk and his liquid fuel rockets sound too much like NASA and its Saturn rockets of the 1960's.

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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #329 on: July 31, 2022, 01:20:26 AM »
I really like the French Arianespace solid fuel rockets that lob satellites one-way into LEO and GTO at little cost. This Elon Musk and his liquid fuel rockets sound too much like NASA and its Saturn rockets of the 1960's.

Too bad Arianespace uses liquid fuel against your wishes...
Ariane-5 uses both solid and liquid fuel to propel spacecraft into space

From Ariane Space:
Ariane 5 launch site

Ariane 5 missions are performed from the Spaceport’s ELA-3 launch zone, which is one of the world’s most modern facilities, and was built specifically to serve the workhorse heavy-lift vehicle.

Here the vehicle is positioned over a concrete foundation with three flame trenches. Liquid oxygen/liquid hydrogen feed lines for the launcher’s cryogenic main stage are hooked up via connectors under the launch table, as are the connections for the umbilical mast.