Your thoughts on Elon musk?

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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #210 on: July 13, 2022, 11:49:47 AM »
I have my doubts about spin launch, they have big hurdles to climb.
They aren't going to be launching big payloads anytime soon, if ever.  But it's a proof of concept that shows the idea isn't entirely crazy.

Even if they only manage to launch small payloads into orbit that's still going to be huge. Sending up cube-sats and supplies like food and oxygen and fuel using possibly only renewables would be a big leap forward.  Who cares if you need 20 launches to get supplies to the ISS if all your spending is solar power.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #211 on: July 13, 2022, 12:27:53 PM »
I have my doubts about spin launch, they have big hurdles to climb.
They aren't going to be launching big payloads anytime soon, if ever.  But it's a proof of concept that shows the idea isn't entirely crazy.

Even if they only manage to launch small payloads into orbit that's still going to be huge. Sending up cube-sats and supplies like food and oxygen and fuel using possibly only renewables would be a big leap forward.  Who cares if you need 20 launches to get supplies to the ISS if all your spending is solar power.
Their problem is in the economic of it all. They still need a rocket to circularise the orbit of the payload, otherwise they just made a big canon, and will plant the payload into someone's house. Then they need to power this massive monstrosity (Which is an amazing piece of engineering btw) which is going to be the rental cost of entire power plants while it spins up. Then the payload needs to be able to survive 8000 or some gee force to survive the spin up.
So they are limited to very basic payloads, and still have massive costs involved in launching. Similar costs to rockets. This is why I dont think it will work. Not that I dont like the concept, it just does not make sense on the financial side.
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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #212 on: July 13, 2022, 01:34:48 PM »
I have my doubts about spin launch, they have big hurdles to climb.
They aren't going to be launching big payloads anytime soon, if ever.  But it's a proof of concept that shows the idea isn't entirely crazy.

Even if they only manage to launch small payloads into orbit that's still going to be huge. Sending up cube-sats and supplies like food and oxygen and fuel using possibly only renewables would be a big leap forward.  Who cares if you need 20 launches to get supplies to the ISS if all your spending is solar power.
Their problem is in the economic of it all. They still need a rocket to circularise the orbit of the payload, otherwise they just made a big canon, and will plant the payload into someone's house. Then they need to power this massive monstrosity (Which is an amazing piece of engineering btw) which is going to be the rental cost of entire power plants while it spins up. Then the payload needs to be able to survive 8000 or some gee force to survive the spin up.
So they are limited to very basic payloads, and still have massive costs involved in launching. Similar costs to rockets. This is why I dont think it will work. Not that I dont like the concept, it just does not make sense on the financial side.
That's the current state of it, yes.  It would be silly to think it can't or won't be improved upon.

It's still producing vastly less polluting and atmosphere warming chemicals which is of considerable benefit.

Basic supplies and fuel can withstand the g forces easily.  So can small satelites, when properly designed.

Testing the current one will show is if, and how bigger and better ones can be made.  It's exciting either way.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #213 on: July 13, 2022, 02:35:15 PM »
Your using very basic things to determine what is best here?
No, I'm not determining what is best.

GEO orbits require a LOT more energy, then its 8 ton disposable for a F9 and 20t+ for a reusable FH.
Not according to Wikipedia.
Wikipedia says it is 20t+ for an expendable FH. Specifically 26.7 t since April 2017.
For reusable it says it is 8 t since April 2017, putting it below the Falcon 9 expendable at 8.3 t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_Heavy#Capabilities

That is the point I was making. A falcon 9 expendable has a larger payload to GTO than the falcon 9 heavy reusable.

I believe they can launch on US launchers, I dont know of a law that will stop them. There is ITAR, which means they cant get access to US tech though, and I dont think thats fair.
The problem is the other way around. It isn't that Chinese companies can't launch on US rockets. It is that US satellites can't launch on Chinese rockets. And because of how ridiculous the setup is, a satellite with a component from the US cannot launch on a Chinese rocket.
That basically rules out the majority of the western world from being able to use Long March.
That is why the Long March family primarily has Chinese customers, because the US will not allow them to have other customers.
In the past, they did have other customers, including commercial customers from the US. But this upset the US when a failed launch in 1995 of a satellite from a US company resulted in that company writing a report about the failure and giving it to the Chinese company. This resulted in the US reclassifying all satellite technology as munitions, prohibiting its export to China, including indirectly by satellite components going to somewhere else to be used in the construction of a satellite that then goes to China.

If this ban wasn't in place, how many launches of commercial US satellites (and satellites from other countries) would Long March be doing?

Right, so you say ALL these companies are spending more on launch costs with zero benefit to them
Some see public appearance as a very significant benefit.
For a US company, they could see the benefit of using a US rocket as a publicity statement, especially a reusable one.
But it still also leaves open the question of how much SpaceX/Musk is paying for it or having the government pay indirectly.

The customer does not pay per kg, they pay launch services which is based on the cost of the entire rocket cost.
Which in no way changes the fact that the reusable version is still more expensive per kg.
And again, the Falcon Heavy vs Falcon 9 example shows that it can cost significantly more for a reusable rocket.

Im not defending the guy, but seriously? Entire countries space programs where put in jepordy because the Falcon 9 completely outclassed them.
Citation needed.

There are all kinds of things you can do to use gravity assist. But these take long. CAPSTONE is taking about 4 months to take a trip that could be done in 4 days, all because it had a lot less energy to work with.
And imagine if they packed more fuel for more energy to work with?

Power is heavy and complex though.
You seem to have missed the point.
Small ion thrusters need energy, not power.
A low power for a long time equates to lots of energy.

Sure, because the only 2 possible options are to either leave all the free space unused, or fill it like a jar of marbles.
Yes, literally.
No.
The fact that rideshare exists at all shows that is not the case.

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #214 on: July 13, 2022, 02:46:55 PM »
Well known that he is a marketer/snake oil extreme individual. And is probably going to get spanked big-time in the Twitter debacle, but Tesla did just post a 3.7 billion dollar earned income last quarter. Building a car company is no easy feat.
Do you mean the company he pumped a lot of money into, got banned from being the CEO due to stock manipulation, only to return later, which has promised a cybertruck which is yet to materialise, and an electric semi which is yet to materialise, robo taxies which earn you more than the cost of the vehicle in a year which are yet to materialise, a fully self driving mode which is yet to materialise, and probably plenty more I am missing out on.
I would say that is very much over promised and under-delivered.

Having a collection of people build a car company when you have plenty of money to throw at it and can convince other people to throw money at it is a fairly easy feat.
Remember, it was making a loss or no or very little profit for quite some time. That would kill most start-ups because they don't have the money to keep it going.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #215 on: July 13, 2022, 03:31:50 PM »
You didn't fix it, you just entirely ignored the point.
No, you're the one missing the point.
Considering it was my comment, I think I would know what the point is, especially given the context.
Perhaps, it's just that you're focusing on the wrong point.

The point is that in the quest of reusability, instead of launching a single Falcon 9, with a single stage 1 booster, they instead need to use a Falcon 9 heavy, with 3 stage 1 boosters.
It is a demonstration of just how much reusability can cost.
And you're missing the point that SpaceX can offer the customer the option of an expendable F9 or a reusable Falcon Heavy and let the customer to decide which option better fits their needs and budget.  I'm sure that SpaceX would be more than willing to go with the expendable F9 if the customer insists (NASA and Space Force did for their first few flights until the reliability of the previously flown boosters was demonstrated) and is willing to pay the difference.
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #216 on: July 13, 2022, 03:56:31 PM »
And you're missing the point that SpaceX can offer the customer the option of an expendable F9 or a reusable Falcon Heavy and let the customer to decide which option better fits their needs and budget.  I'm sure that SpaceX would be more than willing to go with the expendable F9 if the customer insists (NASA and Space Force did for their first few flights until the reliability of the previously flown boosters was demonstrated) and is willing to pay the difference.
If the customer is willing to pay the negative difference, i.e. get to pay less and keep more money?

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #217 on: July 13, 2022, 04:40:13 PM »
And you're missing the point that SpaceX can offer the customer the option of an expendable F9 or a reusable Falcon Heavy and let the customer to decide which option better fits their needs and budget.  I'm sure that SpaceX would be more than willing to go with the expendable F9 if the customer insists (NASA and Space Force did for their first few flights until the reliability of the previously flown boosters was demonstrated) and is willing to pay the difference.
If the customer is willing to pay the negative difference, i.e. get to pay less and keep more money?
As long as the customer can get the services that they need, then yes.  The thing is that every customer's needs are different.  Some needs are better served with expendable and some are better served with reusable, and it's between the customer and SpaceX to figure it out.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #218 on: July 13, 2022, 10:41:02 PM »
That's the current state of it, yes.  It would be silly to think it can't or won't be improved upon.

It's still producing vastly less polluting and atmosphere warming chemicals which is of considerable benefit.

Basic supplies and fuel can withstand the g forces easily.  So can small satelites, when properly designed.

Testing the current one will show is if, and how bigger and better ones can be made.  It's exciting either way.
Im sceptical of the idea, not against the idea. I think its amazing that they have come this far.
My issue is that I dont think it will actually save much of anything because of the business model. It can only launch very dumb things, and not a lot of it. Dumb things are the first things we can get out of local mining on asteroids or the moon, such as water, which could probably be done for cheaper in the longer run.
In the short run, it needs to compete with the giant rockets that are being developed, that could get priced down to below $100/kg. When your in the market of launching dumb things, you can maximise the payload mass of big rockets.
Alternatively it can launch dumb small sats. The issue here, is that these dumb small sats have a lot of other rockets that can launch them. And as JackBlack would like to mention, you can throw them in with other payloads, which often happens for about $750 per kg. And when you scale spin launch up, they are only able to put maybe 200kg to orbit, and still need a second stage.
So, as much as I love the idea, I dont really see it working out.

A Launch loop now is something I do see working out, we just need a trillionaire first.
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Stash

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #219 on: July 13, 2022, 10:49:50 PM »
Well known that he is a marketer/snake oil extreme individual. And is probably going to get spanked big-time in the Twitter debacle, but Tesla did just post a 3.7 billion dollar earned income last quarter. Building a car company is no easy feat.
Do you mean the company he pumped a lot of money into, got banned from being the CEO due to stock manipulation, only to return later, which has promised a cybertruck which is yet to materialise, and an electric semi which is yet to materialise, robo taxies which earn you more than the cost of the vehicle in a year which are yet to materialise, a fully self driving mode which is yet to materialise, and probably plenty more I am missing out on.
I would say that is very much over promised and under-delivered.

Having a collection of people build a car company when you have plenty of money to throw at it and can convince other people to throw money at it is a fairly easy feat.
Remember, it was making a loss or no or very little profit for quite some time. That would kill most start-ups because they don't have the money to keep it going.

Well, when you put it that way...

However, all car manufacturers have duds. As well, all manufacturers have concept vehicles that never see the light of day. The difference is Elon says of all his concepts that they will emerge whereas others say these are just concepts.

There's nothing wrong with throwing good money after bad if it ultimately leads to a 3.7 billion dollar profit.

How he got there, well, yeah, pretty shady and sketchy, at best. At least he didn't have to pull a DeLorean and traffic 55 pounds of blow to try and keep his company afloat. At least that we know of.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #220 on: July 13, 2022, 11:50:25 PM »
No, I'm not determining what is best.
Which really says everything. Because actual companies that want to send billion dollar satellites into orbit disagree with you.

Not according to Wikipedia.
Wikipedia says it is 20t+ for an expendable FH. Specifically 26.7 t since April 2017.
For reusable it says it is 8 t since April 2017, putting it below the Falcon 9 expendable at 8.3 t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_Heavy#Capabilities

That is the point I was making. A falcon 9 expendable has a larger payload to GTO than the falcon 9 heavy reusable.
Great, now go ask wikipedia what the C3 for F9 expendable vs FH is at a 10km/s, because FH is a lot more capable.
There where major upgrades after 2018 to the Falcon family, which improves its performance. No one knows what the FH  payload to GEO actually is, I know, because I have been looking for this answer for some time. They have been switching customers over from F9 disposable to FH. They are not doing this to look cool, they are doing this because its costing less while getting better orbital insertions at the right orbits. A small improvement in orbital insertion can save a customer a lot of money by needing less development on their side.

The problem is the other way around. It isn't that Chinese companies can't launch on US rockets. It is that US satellites can't launch on Chinese rockets. And because of how ridiculous the setup is, a satellite with a component from the US cannot launch on a Chinese rocket.
That basically rules out the majority of the western world from being able to use Long March.
That is why the Long March family primarily has Chinese customers, because the US will not allow them to have other customers.
In the past, they did have other customers, including commercial customers from the US. But this upset the US when a failed launch in 1995 of a satellite from a US company resulted in that company writing a report about the failure and giving it to the Chinese company. This resulted in the US reclassifying all satellite technology as munitions, prohibiting its export to China, including indirectly by satellite components going to somewhere else to be used in the construction of a satellite that then goes to China.

If this ban wasn't in place, how many launches of commercial US satellites (and satellites from other countries) would Long March be doing?
Id like to read more of what you said about this if you have a source.
But in the last 3 years, SpaceX launched for
Egypt, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Korea, Japan, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Israel, Qatar, Argentina, France, Spain . . . this excludes rideshare programs where they launched for basically everyone. Meanwhile, I can barely find any none Chinese launches for the Long March at all. So im not sure if this stands up to scrutiny.

Some see public appearance as a very significant benefit.
For a US company, they could see the benefit of using a US rocket as a publicity statement, especially a reusable one.
But it still also leaves open the question of how much SpaceX/Musk is paying for it or having the government pay indirectly.
This is a terribly weak argument, Why would Turkey and Italy give a rats ass about an American rocket company.
Unless SpaceX found a way to print money, they need to deliver for cheaper than they launch. And considering that they have a lot of money to spend on new R&D, it means they are making stacks of cash somewhere. Their other investments, such as Crew Dragon probably also made good profit, even though it was 25% cheaper than the alternative. No way you cut it, they are making more money launching than anyone else.

Which in no way changes the fact that the reusable version is still more expensive per kg.
In narrow conditions, ill agree. This is a very T's&C's apply statement. One, you need to maximize your payload to an arbitrary orbit, which almost never happens. Flacon 9 is held back by a weak 2nd stage that costs a fair bit to rebuild every time, regardless of 1st stage re-use. Once full re-use is in play, this statement will very rarely if ever be true.

And again, the Falcon Heavy vs Falcon 9 example shows that it can cost significantly more for a reusable rocket.
Under specific conditions. But considering that SpaceX is not disposing of F9's and customers are still rather placing on FH with reuse, it seems that its not that straight forward.

Your only argument against this is that the customers are all idiots.

Citation needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competition#2000-2010

And imagine if they packed more fuel for more energy to work with?
This was not launched on a Falcon 9. It was launched from the electron rocket. The fact that it can get to the moon with that rocket is pretty impressive.

You seem to have missed the point.
Small ion thrusters need energy, not power.
A low power for a long time equates to lots of energy.
I understand how ion thrusters work.
There are a few disadvantages with Ion thrusters, which is why they are not always used.
They need electricity to run, which is generated from Solar. Now sat developers dont want to put more solar on than they need, because this is more mass and complexity. Space rated PV also costs about $2000 per W of power. So they develop enough solar to run the sat, and scale the Ion thruster to that level. So when the sat raises orbit, its main computers and instrumentation is actually off or on low power. Then it switches its Ion thrusters off, and can start operating.
They still use them a lot, especially on small sats. But large sats will need massive solar arrays to run them, which may end up costing far more than just being put in the right orbit first time round.

No.
The fact that rideshare exists at all shows that is not the case.
We are talking in circles.
Your not ridesharing on a GPS sat headed for GEO. Even if there is loads of space and mass to spare. Just the risk of your sat damaging or delaying the GPS sat completely removes this as an option. This applies to most, if not all large and expensive sats.

If you want rideshare, then you need to go on a special mission, that is dedicated for rideshare. OR, you need to develop all the sats on the payload yourself.
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #221 on: July 14, 2022, 02:29:05 AM »
Great, now go ask wikipedia what the C3 for F9 expendable vs FH is at a 10km/s, because FH is a lot more capable.
Falcon Heavy is a lot more capable as expendable. I see no reason to think it is as reusable compared to an expendable Falcon 9.

They have been switching customers over from F9 disposable to FH.
At a greater cost to the customer, and to look good with reusability.

Id like to read more of what you said about this if you have a source.
There are plenty of sources:
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/politics/052198china-congress.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/hughes-and-china-great-wall-rocked-by-satellite-export-ban/25265.article
https://spacenews.com/37071us-satellite-component-maker-fined-8-million-for-itar-violations/

But in the last 3 years, SpaceX launched for
Egypt, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Korea, Japan, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Israel, Qatar, Argentina, France, Spain
And how many of those were built with no US components?

This is a terribly weak argument, Why would Turkey and Italy give a rats ass about an American rocket company.
I never said they would.

Unless SpaceX found a way to print money, they need to deliver for cheaper than they launch.
Or, unless they find some other way to fund it, such as loads of money from the government. Including loads to develop new technology.

In narrow conditions, ill agree. This is a very T's&C's apply statement. One, you need to maximize your payload to an arbitrary orbit, which almost never happens. Flacon 9 is held back by a weak 2nd stage that costs a fair bit to rebuild every time, regardless of 1st stage re-use. Once full re-use is in play, this statement will very rarely if ever be true.
The reuse of the second stage is a major problem.
There is already a major hit to the payload capacity for the reuse of the first stage.
Reuse for a second stage would be far worse.

Under specific conditions. But considering that SpaceX is not disposing of F9's and customers are still rather placing on FH with reuse, it seems that its not that straight forward.

Your only argument against this is that the customers are all idiots.
Not necessarily idiots. Just not necessarily motivated purely by how much it will actually cost.

Citation needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competition#2000-2010
And just how does that justify your claim?

We are talking in circles.
Yes, you want to pretend that rideshare exists, while also pretending it can't work to make more use of the space unless you wanted to try and cram it 100% full like a bunch of marbles.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #222 on: July 14, 2022, 03:43:36 AM »
Falcon Heavy is a lot more capable as expendable. I see no reason to think it is as reusable compared to an expendable Falcon 9.
Who cares if it can launch more to orbit than what customers want. How does it help a customer if you CAN place 20t in GEO, but you only have a 8 ton sat? Why should they pay more for that 12 unused tonnage?

At a greater cost to the customer, and to look good with reusability.
Now im asking you for sources, cause your making stuff up.

There are plenty of sources:
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/politics/052198china-congress.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/hughes-and-china-great-wall-rocked-by-satellite-export-ban/25265.article
https://spacenews.com/37071us-satellite-component-maker-fined-8-million-for-itar-violations/
Oh yeah, these are mostly ITAR issues, Im not a fan of this at all.

And how many of those were built with no US components?
A lot actually, Europe has been building their own sats for ages, and many countries such as Turkey and UAE have been developing their own Sat construction industry.

I never said they would.
Right, so that argument makes no sense. They are launching on reusable rockets because they are cheaper, not somehow sexier.

Or, unless they find some other way to fund it, such as loads of money from the government. Including loads to develop new technology.
Great, but now your saying SpaceX basically develops new technology for basically free, because they have to use the funds they get to both develop new capabilities, such as commercial crew AND subsidise their other launches. . . . your making them look even more impressive.

The reuse of the second stage is a major problem.
There is already a major hit to the payload capacity for the reuse of the first stage.
Reuse for a second stage would be far worse.
your really dont get it. Answer this
You have a 8 ton sat which needs to go to a dedicated orbit.
The one that can just launch 8t max. It costs $165m and is disposable.
The other one can launch 1000t disposable, but only 8t reused. It costs $30m reusable or $120m disposed.

Which launch are you buying?

Not necessarily idiots. Just not necessarily motivated purely by how much it will actually cost.
Well, its a bit part, but no one gives a crap what happens to the rocket after it delivers their sat.


And just how does that justify your claim?
Want me to teach you how graphs work?
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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #223 on: July 14, 2022, 06:10:41 AM »
That's the current state of it, yes.  It would be silly to think it can't or won't be improved upon.

It's still producing vastly less polluting and atmosphere warming chemicals which is of considerable benefit.

Basic supplies and fuel can withstand the g forces easily.  So can small satelites, when properly designed.

Testing the current one will show is if, and how bigger and better ones can be made.  It's exciting either way.
Im sceptical of the idea, not against the idea. I think its amazing that they have come this far.
My issue is that I dont think it will actually save much of anything because of the business model. It can only launch very dumb things, and not a lot of it. Dumb things are the first things we can get out of local mining on asteroids or the moon, such as water, which could probably be done for cheaper in the longer run.
In the short run, it needs to compete with the giant rockets that are being developed, that could get priced down to below $100/kg. When your in the market of launching dumb things, you can maximise the payload mass of big rockets.
Alternatively it can launch dumb small sats. The issue here, is that these dumb small sats have a lot of other rockets that can launch them. And as JackBlack would like to mention, you can throw them in with other payloads, which often happens for about $750 per kg. And when you scale spin launch up, they are only able to put maybe 200kg to orbit, and still need a second stage.
So, as much as I love the idea, I dont really see it working out.

A Launch loop now is something I do see working out, we just need a trillionaire first.
This is a step in the direction of a launch loop, it's teaching us some of what we will know to try and build one.

In the short run it doesn't need to do anything at all except provide data and experience.  Sure, for the company it's vital to make money and be profitable and find some use case for the current tech.

But if you step back and look at humanity as a whole, it's completely irrelevant if one company makes money or goes bankrupt as long as overall progress advances.  Nothing hard happens without failures along the way.  Spin Launch likely will be a step on the path to something greater, and I'm all for them trying.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #224 on: July 14, 2022, 10:03:23 AM »
This is a step in the direction of a launch loop, it's teaching us some of what we will know to try and build one.

In the short run it doesn't need to do anything at all except provide data and experience.  Sure, for the company it's vital to make money and be profitable and find some use case for the current tech.

But if you step back and look at humanity as a whole, it's completely irrelevant if one company makes money or goes bankrupt as long as overall progress advances.  Nothing hard happens without failures along the way.  Spin Launch likely will be a step on the path to something greater, and I'm all for them trying.
Well, any new learning is good. But you want application of that learning. So building things that wont work only gets you so far. That said, I dont think launch loop is so stupid that they should not have built it, and ill be happy to be wrong here. Its just a very close to the edge of feasible idea to me.
Launch loop will require a whole host of new technologies, but also change how much we launch into space from a few tons a year, to tons per min.
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JJA

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #225 on: July 14, 2022, 10:17:54 AM »
This is a step in the direction of a launch loop, it's teaching us some of what we will know to try and build one.

In the short run it doesn't need to do anything at all except provide data and experience.  Sure, for the company it's vital to make money and be profitable and find some use case for the current tech.

But if you step back and look at humanity as a whole, it's completely irrelevant if one company makes money or goes bankrupt as long as overall progress advances.  Nothing hard happens without failures along the way.  Spin Launch likely will be a step on the path to something greater, and I'm all for them trying.
Well, any new learning is good. But you want application of that learning. So building things that wont work only gets you so far. That said, I dont think launch loop is so stupid that they should not have built it, and ill be happy to be wrong here. Its just a very close to the edge of feasible idea to me.
Launch loop will require a whole host of new technologies, but also change how much we launch into space from a few tons a year, to tons per min.
Engineering and simulation have become VERY good but there is still no substitute for building something to see what it actually does.

Spin Launch has so far raised $75 million dollars.  This entire project is cheap compared to how much is spent on conventional rockets.  Things close to the edge are exactly what we should be doing. :)

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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #226 on: July 14, 2022, 02:18:26 PM »
Falcon Heavy is a lot more capable as expendable. I see no reason to think it is as reusable compared to an expendable Falcon 9.
Who cares if it can launch more to orbit than what customers want. How does it help a customer if you CAN place 20t in GEO, but you only have a 8 ton sat? Why should they pay more for that 12 unused tonnage?
I think you completely misunderstood that.
The point I made is that Falcon 9 expendable is more capable than Falcon Heavy reusable.

Now im asking you for sources, cause your making stuff up.
I already provided a source showing the Falcon 9 expendable has a greater payload to GTO than Falcon 9 heavy reusable.

Oh yeah, these are mostly ITAR issues, Im not a fan of this at all.
Yes ITAR issues which prohibit any US satellite component launching on a Chinese rocket, including those sent overseas to be used to build a satellite in a country other than the US.

With that, it makes sense why the Long March isn't launching satellites for loads of other countries.

A lot actually, Europe has been building their own sats for ages, and many countries such as Turkey and UAE have been developing their own Sat construction industry.
COMPONENTS, not just entire satellites.
I provided an article on a company being fined $8 million for making a component which was used in a satellite built outside the US which went to China.

Right, so that argument makes no sense.
How does it make no sense?
If anything your objection makes no sense.
I spoke specifically about US companies, and you decided to bring up Turkey.

Great, but now your saying SpaceX basically develops new technology for basically free
No, I'm saying the government would waste money on them.
That they are getting more from the government than it actually costs to do the R&D.

your really dont get it.
No, I do get it. And because of that I understand why spaceX gave up on a fully reusable falcon.

Answer this
I see no reason to answer your fantasy.
Try again once they actually have starship running at a reasonable price.

Well, its a bit part, but no one gives a crap what happens to the rocket after it delivers their sat.
But they do often care about their image.

Want me to teach you how graphs work?
No, I understand how they work.
I want you to tell me how it justifies your claim.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #227 on: July 14, 2022, 03:47:43 PM »
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musks-dad-errol-has-second-child-with-stepdaughter-report-2022-7

Quote
Elon Musk's dad has fathered a second child with his stepdaughter, who is 41 years his junior, he said in a new interview.

Errol Musk, 76, told The Sun Wednesday that he had a daughter with Jana Bezuidenhout, 35, in 2019.

The elder Musk and Bezuidenhout previously welcomed a son, Elliot Rush, who is now 5 years old.

Bezuidenhout's mother, Heide, and Musk were married for 18 years and share two children. Bezuidenhout was 4 years old when Musk became her stepfather.

Elon being a weirdo is not so weird.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #228 on: July 14, 2022, 08:50:52 PM »
Engineering and simulation have become VERY good but there is still no substitute for building something to see what it actually does.

Spin Launch has so far raised $75 million dollars.  This entire project is cheap compared to how much is spent on conventional rockets.  Things close to the edge are exactly what we should be doing. :)
Simulations dont tell you how to build things, they only tell you what things should look like after you built them. It also cant send anything to orbit. They need to build a MUCH bigger spinnie thing to get to orbit. They are talking about 200m across or more, the one they have now is relatively small.
Im excited to see where it goes either way. Most rocket companies dont make it, so there will be no shame in them failing.
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #229 on: July 14, 2022, 09:29:38 PM »
I think you completely misunderstood that.
The point I made is that Falcon 9 expendable is more capable than Falcon Heavy reusable.
Its not. Because all the numbers you have shown where with the Falcon 9 block 5 vs Falcon heavy block 4 versions. No one but insiders know what Falcon Heavies actual performance is right now. But its certainly higher than what's shown on Wikipedia. The upgrades happened during 2018, and there have been no official stats on the new lift capability because it does not fly as often.

The Block 4 Disposable Flacon 9 could only take 5.5t to Geo, while the Block 4 Flacon Heavy reusable can do 8t, whats currently shown on Wiki.
So no, Falcon 9 reusable is not more capable.

Yes ITAR issues which prohibit any US satellite component launching on a Chinese rocket, including those sent overseas to be used to build a satellite in a country other than the US.

With that, it makes sense why the Long March isn't launching satellites for loads of other countries.
No, it makes sense why its not launching US sats. As I mentioned, many countries make every single component of their own Sats. North Korea, Japan, Europe, UAE Turkey and even frikken South Africa can and do make 100% of their own sats, but dont launch them.

How does it make no sense?
If anything your objection makes no sense.
I spoke specifically about US companies, and you decided to bring up Turkey.
You are saying that these companies are launching on a reusable rocket even though it costs them more, only because it looks cool!
Are you insane.

No, I'm saying the government would waste money on them.
That they are getting more from the government than it actually costs to do the R&D.
News flash, making a profit is central to running a company.
If it cost them more to do the R&D than they recieve, why would they develop tech only for the gov? We can even compare a lot the development side by side to another company to see if they are over pricing, and they are not. They are infact a lot cheaper than the competition. So if they develop new things for cheaper, and they fly for cheaper, where are they getting this "free cash" to subsidize their launches? According to you, they need to be overcharging a lot more somewhere? Where?


No, I do get it. And because of that I understand why spaceX gave up on a fully reusable falcon.
I never said other wise, I agreed. They could not make a fully re-usable falcon 9 work because its smaller. Reusable rockets need to be bigger to be able to do the same job cheaper.

I see no reason to answer your fantasy.
Try again once they actually have starship running at a reasonable price.
Starship wont be launching for customers for quite some time. You not answering a pretty simple analogy at least gives me assurance that your finally getting it.

But they do often care about their image.
Yes, through pretty TV adds and the CEO saying nice things during gay pride month. They are not wasting money on launches, especially when everyone else dumps their rockets in the ocean, and no one bats an eye. Literally only rocket enthusiasts really care.

No, I understand how they work.
I want you to tell me how it justifies your claim.
The main launchers for the global market before the Falcon 9 where Ariane 5, Soyuz and Proton-M. Falcon 9 was introduced in 2013, and completed its block 5 upgrades in 2018.
Ariane 5 peaked in 2015 and saw its market disappear.
Proton peaked in 2012, then saw its market disappear as the Falcon 9 entered the Market.
Soyuz, the smallest of the lot has only just managed to keep its market share, peaking last year thanks to OneWeb. But its pretty much over for Soyuz now as SpaceX is now launching all of OneWebs sats going forward.
The rest of the Global launcher had nearly vanished.

SpaceX in the same time had consistently increased its launches every year. They only stared launching Starlink in 2019 (2 of them), so this is not due to internal flights.
So saying that SpaceX did not do anything significant is a very large exaggeration.
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #230 on: July 15, 2022, 03:56:19 AM »
Its not. Because all the numbers you have shown where with the Falcon 9 block 5 vs Falcon heavy block 4 versions. No one but insiders know what Falcon Heavies actual performance is right now. But its certainly higher than what's shown on Wikipedia. The upgrades happened during 2018, and there have been no official stats on the new lift capability because it does not fly as often.
Notice your contradicting yourself?
You claim no one but insiders know, yet somehow you magically know it is better.

You also seem to be trying to compare it to the reusable Falcon 9.
In 2016, the tried landing a falcon 9 booster from a flight to GTO witha payload of ~5.3 t.
In 2017, the successfully launched a 5.6 t payload to GTO.
They later (may 2017) planned to launch a ~6.1 t payload with a Falcon heavy, but used a Falcon 9 instead.

And the page comparing the different Falcon 9 blocks, shows the change from block 3 to block 5 was going from 5.3 t to 5.8 t for the reusable rocket, while the expendable remained at 8.3 t.

And from looking at the launches, it seems they want to use lower energy GTO orbits with Falcon 9.

No, it makes sense why its not launching US sats. As I mentioned, many countries make every single component of their own Sats. North Korea, Japan, Europe, UAE Turkey and even frikken South Africa can and do make 100% of their own sats, but dont launch them.
Are you sure they make their own satellites entirely from their own components? Do you have any citation for that?

And how many SpaceX launches has North Korea had?

Are you insane.
No, are you?

News flash, making a profit is central to running a company.
Actually, that depends on what your end goal for the company is.
Some are there to make a profit for the company.
Others are there to make a profit for their owner, which can be built upon hype and false promises.
Some are literally scams where they get money from investors to pay off prior investors.

And SpaceX is still taking in investors.

If it cost them more to do the R&D than they recieve, why would they develop tech only for the gov?
To get money?

They are infact a lot cheaper than the competition.
Citation needed.

Starship wont be launching for customers for quite some time. You not answering a pretty simple analogy at least gives me assurance that your finally getting it.
I have always been getting it. The problem is with fantasy.
I can easily claim that there would be a reusable rocket that only costs $100 to refurbish and launch and that it has a payload of 1 Gt to Mars, so it is clearly cheaper than any disposable rocket.
But that is just fantasy, it doesn't show reusable is cheaper.

They are not wasting money on launches, especially when everyone else dumps their rockets in the ocean, and no one bats an eye.
And again you appear to be contradicting yourself.
You want to act like SpaceX has the vast majority of launches, with mainly reusable rockets, yet now claim other companies (the ones contracting spaceX) are just dumping their rockets in the ocean?

The main launchers for the global market before the Falcon 9 where Ariane 5, Soyuz and Proton-M. Falcon 9 was introduced in 2013, and completed its block 5 upgrades in 2018.
Ariane 5 peaked in 2015 and saw its market disappear.
Sure, it "peaked" at the same level it was in in 2012, and then had its "market disappear" so it only launched 5 rockets in 2021.
Soyuz will now have gotten killed by the Ukraine invasion.

And again, with all the launches of Starlink, that graph is quite misleading.

SpaceX hasn't killed other countries space programs.
50% of launches in 2021 for "commercial" payloads were not by SpaceX.
It is also strange that it excludes military missions and GPS for Atlas and Delta, but not SpaceX.
And as pointed out, it ignores Long March.

So perhaps you should learn how graphs work yourself, including on how they can be quite misleading.

So saying that SpaceX did not do anything significant is a very large exaggeration.
Shifting the goalposts I see.
Your claim wasn't just that SpaceX did something significant. It was
"Entire countries space programs where put in jepordy because the Falcon 9 completely outclassed them."
And that simply isn't supported by the data.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #231 on: July 18, 2022, 01:17:33 AM »
Notice your contradicting yourself?
You claim no one but insiders know, yet somehow you magically know it is better.

You also seem to be trying to compare it to the reusable Falcon 9.
In 2016, the tried landing a falcon 9 booster from a flight to GTO witha payload of ~5.3 t.
In 2017, the successfully launched a 5.6 t payload to GTO.
They later (may 2017) planned to launch a ~6.1 t payload with a Falcon heavy, but used a Falcon 9 instead.

And the page comparing the different Falcon 9 blocks, shows the change from block 3 to block 5 was going from 5.3 t to 5.8 t for the reusable rocket, while the expendable remained at 8.3 t.

And from looking at the launches, it seems they want to use lower energy GTO orbits with Falcon 9.
Right, and where does it say what the updated Falcon Heavy GTO mass is?
So all you have is that the F9 has increased capacity from 2016 to today, but you believe nothing changed on Falcon Heavy?
They used Falcon9 because it was cheaper and could do the launch as it kept increasing capacity. As Falcon9 gets better, so does Falcon Heavy.
Reusability also has multi profiles, each with a different advantage.

Are you sure they make their own satellites entirely from their own components? Do you have any citation for that?

And how many SpaceX launches has North Korea had?
Yes I am sure, and it will be hard to find citations. Just like it will be hard to find citations that Apple does not use Samsung parts. It will be a lot easier finding citations that they DO use US components. But I have spoken to people from multiple space industries, (JAXA, SANSA, ESA, Polsa) and multiple countries can build 100% of their own sats. UAE for instance is spending a lot of money to build their own sats. Airbus alone has been building its own sats for decades. And USA does not produce 100% of their own sats all the time either. They can, but in a commercial sense, they often use European suppliers. Germany has the best space hardened solar panels in the World, and USA uses them a lot.

I Meant South Korea. But North Korea certainly can, just not super complex.

Actually, that depends on what your end goal for the company is.
Some are there to make a profit for the company.
Others are there to make a profit for their owner, which can be built upon hype and false promises.
Some are literally scams where they get money from investors to pay off prior investors.

And SpaceX is still taking in investors.
So . . .  to make a profit.
And to make a profit you need to spend less than you earn.
https://craft.co/spacex/funding-rounds here is all the grants and investor funding SpaceX has ever received. The rest of their income has to come from delivering services.

They have received 7.4B from investors since 2002, and with they had to

Develop 4 rockets. Falcon 1, Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy and Starship
Develop multiple rocket engines, Merlin, Draco & S Draco, Raptors.
Develop and launch over 2500 sats

None of that development was paid for from service contracts like the Dragon capsules.
So 4 rockets, 2 Large engines and 2500 sats for $7.4B.
How does it compare?
Just building (Not developing) 18 RS-25's cost NASA $1.8B
Just Launching (Not developing) one SLS rocket with one Orion capsule will cost over $4B
EACH space shuttle launch cost about $1.4B over the lifetime of the program.
Each one of those GPS3 sats in the picture costs well over $400m each.
So Id say SpaceX is doing a lot with that money.

Citation needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Commercial_Crew_Program#CCDev_2
Boeing Starliner - $5.1B and have still not launched
SpaceX Dragon 2 -$3.1B and are already done with the original launch contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_HLS_development_history#Preliminary_HLS_studies
HLS contracts
Blue Origin - $5.99B
Dynetics - $9.8B
SpaceX - 2.94B

I have always been getting it. The problem is with fantasy.
I can easily claim that there would be a reusable rocket that only costs $100 to refurbish and launch and that it has a payload of 1 Gt to Mars, so it is clearly cheaper than any disposable rocket.
But that is just fantasy, it doesn't show reusable is cheaper.
Except actual pricing for reusability.
You need to invent conspiracies for reusability is more expensive, over just looking at the
A - Actual prices
B - Looking at where the entire launch market is heading.

And again you appear to be contradicting yourself.
You want to act like SpaceX has the vast majority of launches, with mainly reusable rockets, yet now claim other companies (the ones contracting spaceX) are just dumping their rockets in the ocean?
What?
I said other launch companies are dumping rocket stages in the Ocean and no one is crying over it.
What are you on about?

Sure, it "peaked" at the same level it was in in 2012, and then had its "market disappear" so it only launched 5 rockets in 2021.
Soyuz will now have gotten killed by the Ukraine invasion.

And again, with all the launches of Starlink, that graph is quite misleading.

SpaceX hasn't killed other countries space programs.
50% of launches in 2021 for "commercial" payloads were not by SpaceX.
It is also strange that it excludes military missions and GPS for Atlas and Delta, but not SpaceX.
And as pointed out, it ignores Long March.

So perhaps you should learn how graphs work yourself, including on how they can be quite misleading.
Ariane when from 12 to 5 launches in a span of 6 years.
OneWeb, competition to SpaceX refused to launch on F9 at any price. Of Soyuz launched 1 in 2019, 3 in 2020 and 9 in 2021. How do their launches look like without OneWeb? Then tell me how well Russia space is doing without that one single customer. Now that Soyuz is no longer an option, they could chose Ariane, Vulcan (Soon) or SpaceX only if they are really really desperate. Guess which they chose?

The last time Delta launched a non gov launch was in 2010, and 2016 for Atlas.
I mean, the Delta costs about $350m per launch, and Altas more than double a F9 for less performance after reuse.

Shifting the goalposts I see.
Your claim wasn't just that SpaceX did something significant. It was
"Entire countries space programs where put in jepordy because the Falcon 9 completely outclassed them."
And that simply isn't supported by the data.
Commercial launch programs, not space programs. And yes, its very much supported by the data
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #232 on: July 18, 2022, 04:48:16 AM »
Right, and where does it say what the updated Falcon Heavy GTO mass is?
On the page, it goes from 6.4 t to 8 t.

Yes I am sure, and it will be hard to find citations. Just like it will be hard to find citations that Apple does not use Samsung parts. It will be a lot easier finding citations that they DO use US components.
You mean like this one:
https://thehackernews.com/2014/01/potential-backdoors-discovered-in-us.html

It is relative easy to assemble a satellite from components
The difficulty is in making the components.
And there are a lot of different components that need to be made.

https://craft.co/spacex/funding-rounds here is all the grants and investor funding SpaceX has ever received. The rest of their income has to come from delivering services.
They have received 7.4B from investors since 2002, and with they had to
Which is only one source of income. So they didn't have to do everything with that.

Develop 4 rockets. Falcon 1, Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy and Starship
Which is really 1 toy rocket, used more for demonstration than anything else and really just a stepping stone to the others, 2 rockets which are really just different configurations of the same rocket, and 1 rocket which is still in the R&D phase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Commercial_Crew_Program#CCDev_2
Boeing Starliner - $5.1B and have still not launched
SpaceX Dragon 2 -$3.1B and are already done with the original launch contract.
And did you bother noting what that was for?
SpaceX had already developed the Dragon due to prior contracts.
And it ignores that spaceX is being both the crew holder and the rocket, whereas boeing is just being 1.

HLS contracts
Blue Origin - $5.99B
Dynetics - $9.8B
SpaceX - 2.94B
Not contracts, bids.
Which then means SpaceX gets the money as the lowest bidder.

Except actual pricing for reusability.
You aren't discussing that.
You are discussing hypothetical prices for a rocket which is yet to go into orbit.

I said other launch companies
Why? We were discussing those paying SpaceX, not SpaceX itself.

Ariane when from 12 to 5 launches in a span of 6 years.
Still not killing other countries space programs.

Commercial launch programs, not space programs. And yes, its very much supported by the data
Then why did you claim:
Im not defending the guy, but seriously? Entire countries space programs where put in jepordy because the Falcon 9 completely outclassed them.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #233 on: July 18, 2022, 06:14:00 AM »
https://spacenews.com/arabsat-ceo-falcon-heavy-gives-our-satellite-extra-life/

Right there you can see that a customer chose a Falcon Heavy fully reusable over a Falcon9 due to its higher orbital payload capabilities.
Im not sure what you think the conspiracy is.

You mean like this one:
https://thehackernews.com/2014/01/potential-backdoors-discovered-in-us.html
that is from 2014, and what do you think happened afterwards? Did they not launch any sats ever again?
Maybe this article will help you
https://www.reuters.com/article/emirates-satellite-int-idUSKBN27D23B

Which is only one source of income. So they didn't have to do everything with that.
Which other sources of income do they have? Because according to you, they are losing money on re-usable launches, which is all their launches.

Which is really 1 toy rocket, used more for demonstration than anything else and really just a stepping stone to the others, 2 rockets which are really just different configurations of the same rocket, and 1 rocket which is still in the R&D phase.
That toy rocket had a higher LEO payload capacity than a lot of rockets we have mentioned in this discussion so far.
The falcon heavy, although a different configuration took a lot of R&D to develop. Its not lego. SLS is using space shuttle engines, main tank and side boosters, but is already $23B in development. And that other rocket in R&D phase is a few months out from its first orbital launch.

And did you bother noting what that was for?
SpaceX had already developed the Dragon due to prior contracts.
And it ignores that spaceX is being both the crew holder and the rocket, whereas boeing is just being 1.
Dragon 1 and Dragon Crew are completely different vehicles. Im not even sure what they have in common if anything.
And Boeing is a 50% owner of ULA, and all ULA tech is Boeing tech. Meaning all ULA launches are Boeing launches.

Not contracts, bids.
Which then means SpaceX gets the money as the lowest bidder.
Which means they have to produce the vehicle for the bid price. They cant change the value after they bid. Otherwise everyone would just bid $1.

You aren't discussing that.
You are discussing hypothetical prices for a rocket which is yet to go into orbit.
I dont know what its going to cost. I can only speculate. I never said I knew what its launch price would be.

Still not killing other countries space programs.
Your trying to be super clever here.
Nigeria has a space program, its pretty hard to kill a countries space program.
But when you lose 50% of your market, it can be said to severely hurt your market share.
You dont need to KILL THE MARKET. GAME OVER RUSSIA!!!
Your watching too much youtube.

Then why did you claim:
Im not defending the guy, but seriously? Entire countries space programs where put in jepordy because the Falcon 9 completely outclassed them.
Because it massively hurt their ability to competitively perform in those markets!
ESA is going to fly European payloads on European rockets at any cost. Its a national thing. Same with every country that has some launch capability, even if SpaceX charges $1 per metric ton to any orbit. So you cant really kill any national launch provider. But you can drain them of commercial contracts.
ESA has been impacted to the point where they admit that they must get reusability working asap. OneWeb, a European company is launching all their sats on Falcon9 now. Europe does not have a rocket able to compete on price OR cadence.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 06:17:15 AM by MaNaeSWolf »
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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #234 on: July 18, 2022, 02:07:06 PM »
HLS contracts
Blue Origin - $5.99B
Dynetics - $9.8B
SpaceX - 2.94B
Not contracts, bids.
Which then means SpaceX gets the money as the lowest bidder.
I'm not sure if you realize it or not, but that was a fixed price contract, not a cost plus contract that NASA previously used.  If program costs more than what was bid, then the contractor has to eat the difference.  That's a good chunk of why it sucks to be Boeing right now; they can't bill NASA extra to make up for their botched demo flight.
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JackBlack

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #235 on: July 18, 2022, 04:10:13 PM »
Right there you can see that a customer chose a Falcon Heavy fully reusable over a Falcon9 due to its higher orbital payload capabilities.
No we can't.
They do not specify what configuration each of them were going for. All we can see is that the end result was a reusable falcon heavy. Where they considering a reusable falcon 9 or an expendable one?

As their satellite is well within the capabilities of an expendable Falcon 9, it seems they were comparing it to a reusable Falcon 9 (which would have put it into a lower energy GTO), as if they had already chosen to go with a reusable rocket, and just need to pick which one.

that is from 2014
And did you notice who was building it?
Airbus, which you claim has been building its own satellites for decades.

Maybe this article will help you
No, it doesn't, as it says nothing about the origin of the components.
Again, building your own satellite from components is much easier than building all the components yourself.

Which other sources of income do they have? Because according to you, they are losing money on re-usable launches, which is all their launches.
Government contracts.
Income for Starlink.

You literally provided another source of income below your claim.

That toy rocket had a higher LEO payload capacity than a lot of rockets we have mentioned in this discussion so far.
Really?
It has a proven capacity of 180 kg, and an initial claim of 600 kg, which was later reduced to 420 kg.
That sure sounds like quite a lot less than the various rockets we have been discussing.
It had very few launches, and SpaceX even admitted "We could not make Falcon 1 work as a business."
So not really anything to brag about.

The falcon heavy, although a different configuration took a lot of R&D to develop. Its not lego. SLS is using space shuttle engines, main tank and side boosters, but is already $23B in development. And that other rocket in R&D phase is a few months out from its first orbital launch.
If they actually developed crossfeed, you would have a point.
Instead, what you have now are 3 boosters, strapped together, with nose cones on 2 of them and the second stage on the core one.
The change to the launch profile is the core booster has a more complex profile where it is initially at full thrust, then throttles down until booster separation.
So not really all that complex.

Compare that to the SLS, which while using components of the reusable boosters from the shuttle, is still redesigning them into 5 segment boosters instead of the 4 segment boosters the shuttle had, It is using a similar but still different fuel tank to the shuttle, with a configuration entirely different from the shuttle, where now fuel needs to be fed to the bottom of the stage to the engines mounted there instead of flowing fuel into the shuttle to go to its engines, with obvious differences in where the engines are mounted, and it has a second stage where the shuttle was effectively a single stage with boosters.
So drastically different.

Dragon 1 and Dragon Crew are completely different vehicles.
In the same way a 1990 Mustang is different to a 2000 Mustang.

Which means they have to produce the vehicle for the bid price.
But it doesn't mean they are getting so much less money than the competitors.
And what will happen if they don't meet the bid price and need more money?
Lots of government contracts start out cheap then end up getting more money.

I dont know what its going to cost. I can only speculate.
Which is no better than the fantasy I provided.
You are speculating that it will be massively cheaper to try and prop up your claim that reusability is massively cheaper.

Your trying to be super clever here.
No, I'm not. I am merely showing that your "evidence" does not support your claim.
If you didn't mean that it that it threatened their space program, then you shouldn't have said it did.

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markjo

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #236 on: July 18, 2022, 04:58:27 PM »
Which means they have to produce the vehicle for the bid price.
But it doesn't mean they are getting so much less money than the competitors.
And what will happen if they don't meet the bid price and need more money?
Since it's a fixed price contract, nothing happens.  They suck it up and eat the difference (or beg for more money like Boeing did).  They can probably write off the loss come tax time.


I dont know what its going to cost. I can only speculate.
Which is no better than the fantasy I provided.
So you admit that your whole argument is a fantasy?  Good to know.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #237 on: July 18, 2022, 09:27:00 PM »
No we can't.
They do not specify what configuration each of them were going for. All we can see is that the end result was a reusable falcon heavy. Where they considering a reusable falcon 9 or an expendable one?

As their satellite is well within the capabilities of an expendable Falcon 9, it seems they were comparing it to a reusable Falcon 9 (which would have put it into a lower energy GTO), as if they had already chosen to go with a reusable rocket, and just need to pick which one.
I do know it was at a very high inclination, so not so sure if it was F9 disposable capable.
There is more to orbits than reaching the reference orbits!
They talk about giving the sat multiple years of additional life, meaning orbital insertion from the second stage was very important for them.

And did you notice who was building it?
Airbus, which you claim has been building its own satellites for decades.
Airbus HAS been building its own sats for years. It does not mean they cant import parts. Here they did possibly because they thought the imported parts wont have spy software on.
But now UAE can build their own sats. They still need to import some components, because very few countries make certain things. For eg, Solar for Germany, computers from Taiwan ext. The US also imports parts, does this mean they cant build sats?
"Parts" does not make a satellite. Otherwise no country can make a sat according to your definition. Even US spy sats need components imported from other countries.

Government contracts.
Income for Starlink.

You literally provided another source of income below your claim.
Lets go over this again.
You say that reuse is cheaper because they are subsidizing their re-use launches with other things. This means they need at least $17m dollars extra from somewhere else per launch, or about $2-3B spare change somewhere.
We know its not investor money because they dont have all that much relative to how much they are developing.
Its not starlink, because they only have about 300 000 customers at $100 each right now, while selling user terminals for less than it costs to make. All of their customers income a month barely pays for one launch.
All their Gov contracts are substantially cheaper than the ULA or Boeing alternative, so they are already undercutting there, plus they still need to actually deliver on these services, its not free money.

So where are they getting this $2 - 3 billion?

Really?
It has a proven capacity of 180 kg, and an initial claim of 600 kg, which was later reduced to 420 kg.
That sure sounds like quite a lot less than the various rockets we have been discussing.
It had very few launches, and SpaceX even admitted "We could not make Falcon 1 work as a business."
So not really anything to brag about.
That was before the merlin saw any upgrades, so it could probably reach its 600kg.
Electron, the rocket that launched the Capstone mission mentioned earlier only has a LEO capacity of about 300kg.
Vega, Soyuz and PSLV are closer to launch mass to Falcon 1 than Falcon 9.
I agree, F1 is not impressive, yet its closer to a lot of the commercial alternatives than F9.

If they actually developed crossfeed, you would have a point.
Instead, what you have now are 3 boosters, strapped together, with nose cones on 2 of them and the second stage on the core one.
The change to the launch profile is the core booster has a more complex profile where it is initially at full thrust, then throttles down until booster separation.
So not really all that complex.

Compare that to the SLS, which while using components of the reusable boosters from the shuttle, is still redesigning them into 5 segment boosters instead of the 4 segment boosters the shuttle had, It is using a similar but still different fuel tank to the shuttle, with a configuration entirely different from the shuttle, where now fuel needs to be fed to the bottom of the stage to the engines mounted there instead of flowing fuel into the shuttle to go to its engines, with obvious differences in where the engines are mounted, and it has a second stage where the shuttle was effectively a single stage with boosters.
So drastically different.
FH cross feed was very complex. It needs to work with a common booster design which would make the common booster worse or far more complex. And at the end of the day, Falcon Heavy is restricted by its fairing size, so more up mass is pretty much useless. As proof, go see how many FH disposable launches are on the manifest. Not too many to justify the sacrifices that will need to be made.

And SLS, while it DID need a lot of upgrades, took more money to develop than what has passed through SpaceX doors to date. Just for the single vehicle.

In the same way a 1990 Mustang is different to a 2000 Mustang.
They have a different structure and size
Different Parachutes
Different heat shields
Different avionics
Different trunk and energy management system
D2 has super dracos not on D1
D2 has a LES not on D1
D2 has can auto dock, while D1 needs to manually berth
D2 has a ECLSS system while D1 does not.

Please tell me, where are they they same?
But it doesn't mean they are getting so much less money than the competitors.
And what will happen if they don't meet the bid price and need more money?
Lots of government contracts start out cheap then end up getting more money.
Charging less for a service means you get less for a service. Im guessing your not an account.
If they need more money, then they need to self fund to deliver or get penalised for failing to deliver. Boeing's starliner is in this position right now. Boeing is self funding additional dev of starliner as it cost them more than the bid price to develop, while NASA is rejecting them on other bids due to bad performance.
These bids are all fixed cost bids. Means you deliver at that price, end of story.
SLS is on a cost plus bid. Meaning if it costs more, the US gov pays more.
Cost plus makes sense when there is only one bidder and NASA has direct control of the contract.

Which is no better than the fantasy I provided.
You are speculating that it will be massively cheaper to try and prop up your claim that reusability is massively cheaper.
We know reusability is cheaper, because we have real figures to use.
Your developing conspiracies to justify otherwise.

In what world is building a new rocket cheaper than fuel and repairs?
Each Space Shuttle cost about $450m to launch. A lot sure, but they cost over $2b to build.
The RS-25s that SLS will dump in the ocean each cost more than an entire FH disposable launch.

There are conditions where single use is cheaper, for ex, where launch cadence is very very low. Which is where the world was from 1970 to 2010's. We are not there anymore.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 10:23:28 PM by MaNaeSWolf »
If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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JackBlack

  • 21777
Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #238 on: July 19, 2022, 01:45:35 AM »
So you admit that your whole argument is a fantasy?  Good to know.
Seriously?
Just how did you manage to come up with that dishonest BS?

They talk about giving the sat multiple years of additional life, meaning orbital insertion from the second stage was very important for them.
And yet still no indication that they were considering a Falcon 9 expendable.

But now UAE can build their own sats. They still need to import some components
Which was the very point I was making, which you seem to repeatedly fail to grasp.
NO US SATELLITE COMPONENT is allowed to be launched on a Chinese rocket.
So saying they can make their own satellites from components is entirely pointless.

You say that reuse is cheaper
No, I say per kg reuse is not cheaper, and that there is no reason at all to believe the claims of how much it actually costs them.

Its not starlink, because they only have about 300 000 customers at $100 each right now
$710 upfront and then $110 per month.
Or for their premium service, you can pay $3000 upfront and $500 per month.
That $110 per month works out to be $1320 per year per person, or almost $400 million dollars for all their subscribers.

That was before the merlin saw any upgrades, so it could probably reach its 600kg.
Electron, the rocket that launched the Capstone mission mentioned earlier only has a LEO capacity of about 300kg.
Vega, Soyuz and PSLV are closer to launch mass to Falcon 1 than Falcon 9.
Yet you claim the vast majority of the launch mass for the F9 isn't needed.
I would say only the electron is comparable to the F1.

FH cross feed was very complex.
Hence why if they actually did it you would have a point.
Instead what they did is rather insignificant compared to SLS.
Comparing it to SLS to pretend SpaceX is so much cheaper is quite dishonest.

In the same way a 1990 Mustang is different to a 2000 Mustang.
Please tell me, where are they they same?
Similar can be said of any derivative.
It again ignores the point.
SpaceX already had a government paid for starting point to work from. So they should take less money to produce Dragon 2.

Charging less for a service means you get less for a service.
Charging less for a service, so you get the money while your competitors don't doesn't mean you get less. Instead, it means you get more.

We know reusability is cheaper, because we have real figures to use.
Your developing conspiracies to justify otherwise.
Not per kg, and still quite questionable given how much is kept secret internally.
And more to the point, we have no basis to claim a reusable orbital rocket (instead of just a booster) is cheaper.

In what world is building a new rocket cheaper than fuel and repairs?
In a world were that requires a more complex rocket, a reduction in capacity and potentially quite significant cost for repairs.

Each Space Shuttle cost about $450m to launch. A lot sure, but they cost over $2b to build.
You sure do love useless points.
Try comparing it to the cost of a rocket with the same capabilities as the shuttle, but without the reusability.

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MaNaeSWolf

  • 2623
  • Show me the evidence
Re: Your thoughts on Elon musk?
« Reply #239 on: July 19, 2022, 11:39:57 AM »
And yet still no indication that they were considering a Falcon 9 expendable.
Considering it was at a 32 degree inclination at over 6.5t, its right at the edge of what a F9 disposable could do. F9 reusable is not an option here.

Which was the very point I was making, which you seem to repeatedly fail to grasp.
NO US SATELLITE COMPONENT is allowed to be launched on a Chinese rocket.
So saying they can make their own satellites from components is entirely pointless.
ITAR does not cover everything made in the USA. It covers specific things. It is meant to ensure certain tech does not fall into Chinese hands. Europe actually has something similar. Solar panels and many many other things are not on that list. But, you can 100% build a sat without ANY American components. Or do you think Russia is importing American satellite components in their Spy sats? Russia, the country that was launching sats before the USA?

No, I say per kg reuse is not cheaper, and that there is no reason at all to believe the claims of how much it actually costs them.
And as mentioned probably over 20 times now. You dont buy launch services by the kg. Just like reference orbits, price per kg is just an indicator of cost. Its not the cost.

$710 upfront and then $110 per month.
Or for their premium service, you can pay $3000 upfront and $500 per month.
That $110 per month works out to be $1320 per year per person, or almost $400 million dollars for all their subscribers.
$400m a year to pay for over 20 Falcon 9 launches, each with about 50 average sats.
According to you, reuse is more expensive, so this is costing them over $1-2B a year just in launch cost.
So either reuse is a hell lot cheaper than you think, or SpaceX has invented a money printing machine somewhere.

Yet you claim the vast majority of the launch mass for the F9 isn't needed.
Very few rockets ever launch at their max capacity. Your max capacity is your range of mass that you can launch for a price. Falcon 9 can launch anything from 1g to 16t for $50m. Within that range will be smaller rockets that can put payload up for less, and beyond that range will be bigger rockets for more. One of those options being disposable for a lot more money.


Hence why if they actually did it you would have a point.
Instead what they did is rather insignificant compared to SLS.
Comparing it to SLS to pretend SpaceX is so much cheaper is quite dishonest.
No, I never compared just the Flacon Heavy upgrade to the SLS.
I compared
4 rockets (F1, F9, FH, SS)
2 large rocket engines (merlin, Raptor)
deployed over 2500 sats (Of which there are 2 versions)
For 1/3rd of the price of SLS.

Similar can be said of any derivative.
It again ignores the point.
SpaceX already had a government paid for starting point to work from. So they should take less money to produce Dragon 2.
You mean like how Boeing was building the SLS, and was deeply involved in the $90B STS program should be able to now build Starliner cheaper for cheaper? Like that?

Charging less for a service, so you get the money while your competitors don't doesn't mean you get less. Instead, it means you get more.
Oh right, if only the competition did not realise they could bid less?
Why did the others bid more than double for the same service?

Not per kg, and still quite questionable given how much is kept secret internally.
And more to the point, we have no basis to claim a reusable orbital rocket (instead of just a booster) is cheaper.
Again, not per kg under certain conditions for a partially reusable rocket. But AGAIN, no one is paying for launch services by the kg.
I also have no claim that if you jump off a high enough building you will die. We will only know once you do it, maybe your immune to gravity, who knows. But we can make certain informed guesses.

In a world were that requires a more complex rocket, a reduction in capacity and potentially quite significant cost for repairs.
Right, this is the first time you said something interesting.
How much does that complexity cost, in both mass, fixed cost, variable cost and cadence? How often can you reuse and how much does re-use cost?
How much reduction in capacity, and what is the cost of that and market of that lost capacity? How does it compare to using the full capacity?
Everyone in the industry that has done this math is currently developing reusable rockets. We can play a game of, which major launch company is not currently building reuse. You start.
You sure do love useless points.
Try comparing it to the cost of a rocket with the same capabilities as the shuttle, but without the reusability.
There does not exist any vehicles with the same capability of the shuttle. 7 people plus 16ton to LEO with a low-g glide slope return to earth. Maybe the Buran, but we have nothing to work off there.
You can try an put a ULA rocket + Starliner and 7 people at $90m per seat. Then add the Vulcan at $160m and still end up more expensive than the Space Shuttle.

If you move fast enough, everything appears flat