I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it

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Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2019, 05:36:25 AM »
Many unproven conspiracy theories exist with varying degrees of popularity frequently related theories have also related to allegation that a certain autopilot technology was malaysia airlines flight was short down thee path of investigation have tried to put the would never have started down the path of investigation trump think about the sites of the claim here. Boast and planes have been disappearing ever since they were first invented. I think it up with the trump campaign the server in the trump tower shut down.

Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2019, 08:14:09 AM »
I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.
How would you run a GPS system off loads of weather balloons floating about?

I'm hesitant to post this reply, as it is likely to draw a rash of "What about X?" "What about Y?" "How do you explain Z?" "But it doesn't do ..." that are all complaints about how the system in this reply differs from the existing GPS system. Or about the details of current weather balloon launches.

Take this reply, rather, as an answer to the question "Is it possible to create -- at this point, say, imagine -- a positioning system using balloons rather than satellites?" in response to the thought "There is no possible way for balloons to create a global positioning system."

Ground positioning stations 100-200-300 miles apart are used as positioning fiducials. Balloons with receivers and transmitters triangulate their own positions from ground stations. Balloons reaching heights of 30,000 ft should be able to reach a ground stations within a 400 mile diameter circle, and balloons can reach 60K, 80K, 100K ft. Balloons can stay aloft for months, with the current record for a stratospheric balloon continuous flight of over 6 months. Commercial companies have demonstrated the ability to use high-altitude balloon networks for LTE cell phone communication. Patents for untethered station-keeping stratospheric balloons have been applied for. Each balloon that triangulates its own position then becomes a secondary fiducial. Even though these secondary fiducials are in motion, their instantaneous position is kept track of. Secondary fiducials can then triangulate the positions of balloons out of range of ground stations. Balloons at altitude have even longer ranges to see other balloons. Similar to how a network of measuring stations started at the coast of India to work inwards (The Great Trigonometrical Survey), bootstrapping each new point on data from previous points, a network of points (many of which are moving) is created. Accumulated errors from just using secondary fiducials is mitigated by connecting up with other ground stations (say on the other side of an ocean) to make a global network of points, some stationary, some in motion. That network is then the basis for a user determining location from an unknown point.

There is nothing conceptually impossible about this system.
Decent answer!

Ignore rab, hypotheticals confuse him.
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rabinoz

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Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2019, 04:46:37 PM »
I take it you have heard of journalists....of the investigative variety? Their aim is to find stories. `I think if thousands of balloons were launched each day, someone would notice given their 2 hour life. Lets say 2000 balloons are required for the continental USA, thats 24,000 for each 24 hour period, making a total of 876,000 balloons per year!...I think questions would be being asked about all the rubber littering the countryside! Its just too silly for words.
How would you run a GPS system off loads of weather balloons floating about?

I'm hesitant to post this reply, as it is likely to draw a rash of "What about X?" "What about Y?" "How do you explain Z?" "But it doesn't do ..." that are all complaints about how the system in this reply differs from the existing GPS system. Or about the details of current weather balloon launches.

Take this reply, rather, as an answer to the question "Is it possible to create -- at this point, say, imagine -- a positioning system using balloons rather than satellites?" in response to the thought "There is no possible way for balloons to create a global positioning system."

Ground positioning stations 100-200-300 miles apart are used as positioning fiducials. Balloons with receivers and transmitters triangulate their own positions from ground stations. Balloons reaching heights of 30,000 ft should be able to reach a ground stations within a 400 mile diameter circle, and balloons can reach 60K, 80K, 100K ft. Balloons can stay aloft for months, with the current record for a stratospheric balloon continuous flight of over 6 months. Commercial companies have demonstrated the ability to use high-altitude balloon networks for LTE cell phone communication. Patents for untethered station-keeping stratospheric balloons have been applied for. Each balloon that triangulates its own position then becomes a secondary fiducial. Even though these secondary fiducials are in motion, their instantaneous position is kept track of. Secondary fiducials can then triangulate the positions of balloons out of range of ground stations. Balloons at altitude have even longer ranges to see other balloons. Similar to how a network of measuring stations started at the coast of India to work inwards (The Great Trigonometrical Survey), bootstrapping each new point on data from previous points, a network of points (many of which are moving) is created. Accumulated errors from just using secondary fiducials is mitigated by connecting up with other ground stations (say on the other side of an ocean) to make a global network of points, some stationary, some in motion. That network is then the basis for a user determining location from an unknown point.

There is nothing conceptually impossible about this system.
Decent answer!

Ignore rab, hypotheticals confuse him.
Yes, "hypotheticals confuse" me, especially when it is not really so hypothetical at all. As I have tried to show earlier such a system could not measure altitude with any accuracy.

Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2019, 06:32:34 AM »
I think I figured out where some of the conspirators must be!

There are many companies (I easily found 14, there must be others) that make GPS receivers.

https://www.mouser.com/
At each of these companies, there are multiple engineers who programmed and debugged their product. These people would be very familiar with the raw data from the satellites and would where the transmitters are or how it is faked if it secretly works completely differently.

If the earth is flat, some of the people at each of these 14 companies know where the transmitters are and how it actually works and so are secret conspirators. If the earth is round, it works exactly the way they say and they are just some engineers.

There are many more than 14 companies. you listed only 14 commercial grade module companies that sell their products in North America. Commercial modules are also sold by other distributors within NA, Such as Digi-key, Arrow, Avnet...Yes they overlap in models, but they also will have exclusive deals with only some distributors. There are also other modules in other countries by other distributors that we would have a lot of trouble searching for, such as China. There are Chinese companies who make Chinese only GPS that we never see. They don't certify them for our market, especially since China now has it's own "Satellite" system that NA GPS devices can't see in the sky. Same goes for the UE satellite system, that we can see on the fringe but not completely. Now, what we were discussing was only commercial grade modules. There are also chipset makers (manufacturers who don't make modules, or only supply the chips that go in the modules). For example, Atmel had a deal in the past with UBLox. Atmel made the chip that was in the Ublox module. Atmel is not a GPS company, but was primarily known as a micro-controller company. Further, these are only commercial grade products. There are also companies that make military and industrial grade only GPS products. Requirements are different in each case. Multiply and add the number Commercial, industrial, Military, chipset, Countries and that number is already in the hundreds easily. And we can keep going...There are also the GPS antenna manufacturers that certainly need engineers who know the truth. Again, they apply to commercial, industrial, military, country....Then there are other companies that you don't realize that make GPS devices. Such as cellular radio manufacturers who include GPS in their modules or chipsets. Telit for example. And again the idea of grade and country applies.
In fact I just looked at your list of modules from Mouser. That list of 14 are not even the main companies in NA. There is an almost completely different list of 25 in Digikey NA.
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/rf-if-and-rfid/rf-receivers/870?k=GPS%20module
Add to all this that over time, people age and retire. New people go to school for four years or more to become engineers in the field and then come to find out everything they learnt means nothing and have to learn and study "the truth" before they can begin to work on the products. So they are taught by either the other engineers?...or special secret teachers? They don't just walk in and are told "the truth" and start to work. They would need to know the complete history, the way it works, how it's designed down to the low level. This would apply to not just the HW engineers, but others like SW engineers for example. This re-learning can take 1-2 years per person. Then you have the engineers who design the land based transmitters, the ones who design the balloons...And all the while hoping none of these people open their mouth and take everything to their death bed. And again, this is in all major countries.
I haven't exhausted the amount of people who would need to know "the truth". We are in the tens of thousands since it's inception in the 70's, if not hundreds of thousands. It would not be just a small multiple of the 14 companies you listed.
Not meant to be a rant, just expanding on your argument about the amount of people who would need to know.

PS, just to add, the companies who make GPS test equipment, GPS repeaters, and GPS simulators.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 06:53:48 AM by commando_j »

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faded mike

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Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2019, 10:45:45 PM »
To the op, what do you think would be the impediment to pulling off such a conspiracy?
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Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2019, 11:07:42 PM »
To the op, what do you think would be the impediment to pulling off such a conspiracy?

Read the post right before yours for starters.

TL;DR
Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Re: I want to pin down the GPS conspiracy, I think I found it
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2019, 03:06:01 AM »
To the op, what do you think would be the impediment to pulling off such a conspiracy?
Reality.
Quote from: mikeman7918
a single photon can pass through two sluts

Quote from: Chicken Fried Clucker
if Donald Trump stuck his penis in me after trying on clothes I would have that date and time burned in my head.